Raees/Invictus VS Gio/Theon - NT Peak draft - Semi Final

Who would win based solely on their peak in the chosen tournament?


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Annahnomoss

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Who would win based solely on their performance in the chosen tournaments?
-----------Raees/Invictus--------------------------Gio/Theon


RAAES/INVICTUSACTICAL OUTLINE

FORMATION: 5-2-3
STRATEGY: COUNTER-ATTACK (FLUID FRONT 3)



At this stage of the tournament, after two rounds of reinforcement, every team is packed to the rafters with incredible players boasting incredible résumés - Player(s) of the Tournament, Golden Ball, Golden Boot, Team(s) of the Tournament - and so forth, so squabbling about personnel quality will be an antagonistic and fruitless endeavor. We will still detail the player accomplishments, but in our opinion, what will ultimately separate the teams is interpersonal cohesion between the players from a qualitative and tactical standpoint - in a way that heightens the effectiveness of the players with the greatest peaks and seamlessly harmonizes the tournament peak of each player with those around him into the grander framework of the team in line with the vision of the managers - maybe not to the optimal level since that's next to impossible, but bloody close to it. With that in mind, we'd like to delve into our selection, and illustrate how it's perfectly set up to extract every bit of quality from the XI.

DEFENSE

The plan was to build a water-right central defensive core with a defensive sweeper to tidy things up betwixt two rugged stoppers/man markers when an attacker evades the initial barrier. That stronghold will in turn allow the wingbacks to steam up and down the flanks with relative freedom to open up the field for the attackers (who thrive in space), and in our opinion - we have the perfect blend of defensive nous, athleticism, tactical know-how and peak performance to accomplish that.

Between the sticks is one of the very, very, very few goalkeepers to overshadow an international tournament like a Goliath while dragging his team all the way to the final in OLIVER KHAN - who shone like no other player in 2002 - winning the FIFA World Cup Golden Ball ahead of Fenómeno and Ballack and Ronaldinho and Rivaldo and Klose for his part in leading an unfancied Germany team to the final of the tournament.

For the right wingback position we needed someone who offers irrepressible qualities in both the attacking and defensive phases of the game - and the athletic skillset to maintain that level for 90 minutes on both ends of the pitch. With that in mind, there's no better player in the entire pool than the only man to reach 3 consecutive World Cup finals, and the captain of 2002 World Cup winning Brazilian Team - CAFÚ - who formed one half of the breathtaking Brazilian wingback engine in their World Cup travails.


For the right centerback position, the plan was to have someone who can cover for the right wingback, and also mark the inside left sided attacker when the sweeper slides to a defensive position. It's a highly specialized role - because the player would need to have experience as what would essentially translate to a tucked in central defender position and would need to be an accomplished defender in that phase of the game, and the slightest error in the judgement of the player's tournament peak could make a big difference in our ability to extract the best out of him. Luckily, we acquired the perfect fit and player for the role - 1988 UEFA European Championship Team of the Tournament selection - GIUSEPPE BERGOMI - who masterfully filled in as the tucked in man-marking right center back alongside Franco Baresi with Ferri floating around in a Burgnich/Gentile man-marking fullback role, and Bergomi is arguably the best fit in this particular format with Djalma Santos for Brazil, and Kohler for West Germany. On a slightly tangential note, we suspect that a certain Frenchman from the opposition is going to be sold in this role, and that should be very interesting given his role in 1998 - because there could be a dissonance between tournament peak (not career record) and what is going to be asked of him here.

For the sweeper position, we needed a consummate defenders' defender first and foremost - with offensive qualities being a neat bonus more than anything else, and certainly not THE overriding quality - because in bigger game with bigger stakes and condensed spaces - the sweeper will be asked to do more defensive than offensive work. We were initially tempted to go with more offensive technical liberos, but a lot of those players can cause great disruption in the back-line when others are asked to cover for them (eg. the underrated Dieter Elits in 1996 with the way he intuitively dropped from midfield to defense), and can't always be harmonized in teams where the primary focus in that attacking phase is on the wingbacks and the final third players (who need more of the ball to hit peak levels). We had the center-half to execute the scheme in Varela, but didn't want to distract him from his primary man-marking and disruptive and 'instigator of counter-attack' duties in deep midfield, and didn't want to place greater strain on our central markers and wingbacks. With all of that in mind, we were lucky to select FRANCO BARESI - who was a defensive titan for Italy in the 1990 World Cup - conceding 0 goals in the group stages, and only 1 goal in he tournament overall - in the semi-finals in Napoli against Maradona's Argentina. Because Baresi was an extraordinary defender first and foremost, the central defensive spine is extremely stronk and can thwart most attacks. The technical qualities of his offensive game are a neat bonus - and will help in the distribution from the back. Here Baresi is going to be in his elements - flanked on both sides by consummate defenders, minding his defensive duties, quenching attacks, sweeping up attackers that bypass the right and left central defenders using his god tier defensive IQ, and launching the attack every once in a while.


For the left centerback position, we needed a towering and muscle bound central defensive stopper to be the second lieutenant of Baresi. This player would have to boast a considerable athletic skillset, strength, stamina and physique with a dogged mentality. And in our estimation, there's none better for the role in this format than the aptly nicknamed (The Rock) MARCEL DESAILLY - who was a force of nature as the central defensive stopper for France in the 1998 World Cup and was duly elected to the FIFA World Cup All-Star Team. Desailly also offers a slightly varied approach to Bergomi. The latter was a uncompromising and cunning man-marker, and Desailly is going to be the more direct and bruising enforcer in chief - which should theoratically bring out the best in each player, and provide the best combo for Baresi as a blend of distinct defensive qualities.

On the far left is the gold standard of tournament wingback performance in ANDREAS BREHME - who dominated the flank in an offensive and defensive sense, and was a ubiquitous presence for West Germany in both phases of the game with 3 goals and 3 assists - getting named in the FIFA World Cup All-Star Team (apart from 3rd in the Ballon d'Or):


MIDFIELD

The primary objective was two fold - set the stage for THE GOAT #10 with very little interference on the ball from ultra fancy midfield players that look good on paper but would detract from said #10, and stop the opposition #10. If we build the platform to do those two things, it's mission accomplished and we can sit back and take a deep breath of relief. And coincidentally, we have the personnel to do just that.

The nominal defensive box-to-box midfielder JEAN TIGANA is one of very, very few players of his nature to thrive with a GOAT level #10 in this format given his partnership with Platini in EURO '84. There's a propensity to select the biggest name box-to-box midfielder, but they didn't always have a fruitful combination with #10 players in terms of tournament peak, and too much improvisation from said box-to-box could have a stifling effect on the #10. No such concerns with Tigana - not only was he extraordinarily good in 1984 (Ballon d'Or – Runner-up: 1984, UEFA European Championship Team of the Tournament: 1984), he excelled in a symbiotic way a behemoth of a #10 in Platini (Jean lead the tournament for assists and Michel for goals). A nigh perfect fit as the foundation setter for our #10 because of his selfless and tireless peak style of play.

Behind him is the greatest disruptive presence in World Cup history in OBDULIO VARELA - who blew Brazilian dreams to smithereens in 1950, and is THE perfect defensive midfield anchor in this format considering that Rijkaard was a roaming stopper centerback in 1988. Wherever the opposition #10 goes, he'll be haunted by the specter of El Negro Jefe (The Black Chief):



THE WIZARD

Complete tactical independence - complete freedom to improvise - will receive the high percentage of the ball - room created by the wingbacks to exploit spaces - platform laid by the central midfield - field stretched by a striker and a second striker - in his elements. THE GOD of tournament format needs no introduction, and any flowery prose to highlight his qualities is unnecessary.



The plan was to build a striker-second striker combination, and in our opinion, we've got the perfect combo to accomplish that given their tournament peaks.

ATTACK

At IL/LW/CF/SS is EUSÉBIO - FIFA World Cup Golden Boot: 1966, FIFA World Cup Bronze Ball: 1966 - whose nine goals in England propelled Portugal to a third-place finish, and a succession of opposing teams simply had no answer to the power and pace of his play. Indefinable, inexhaustable turbo-charged powerhouse forward who will take men away from Diego as a secondary threat.

Eusébio could release Maradona with a pass when he drops:


He could attack through the left when Maradona goes slightly wide:


He could go wide left and release an onrushing Maradona or Brehme:



And spearheading the attack is MARCO VAN BASTEN - the premier target striker in this format given his grace, power, close control, quickness on the turn, and dominance in the air - who boasts a superlative record in 1998 against the best teams around:

UEFA Euro All-time XI, IFFHS World’s Best Player: 1988, Ballon d'Or: 1988.


As a point of interest - it's worth noting that a towering #9 in Van Basten thrived with a powerhouse forward in Ruud Gullit, and a powerhouse forward in Eusébio thrived with a towering #9 in José Augusto Torres - and as a combination, they could further stretch the field vertically and horizontally for Diego Maradona. And Marco's ability in the air will be a frightening combination with the faultless Andreas Brehme - who is the best crossing and passing wingback in this format for his exploits in 1990. Complementary combinations all around, in our opinion.



TEAM GIO/THEON
PLAYER PROFILES

PETER SCHMEICHEL, EURO 1992

Regarded as the most influential goalkeeping performance of all time, Schmeichel dragged a workmanlike Danish side to success in the unlikeliest of circumstances. Having dispatched France and England in the group stages, he became increasingly unbeatable as the tournament wore on, producing two man-mountain displays against holders Holland in the semi-finals and world champions Germany in the final.

MATTHIAS SAMMER, EURO 1996
In what was perhaps the greatest libero tournament display of all, Sammer was Germany's best defender, midfielder and attacker all rolled into one package at Euro '96. Sammer's organisation saw Germany keep three clean sheets to stroll what had been coined the 'group of death' as a stacked Italy squad tumbled out of the tournament. The libero stepped up another gear in the quarter finals, almost single-handedly dismantling a brilliant Croatia side, winning the penalty for the opener then scoring the winner - both goals coming after trademark bursts forward to cut open the opposition like a hot knife through butter. His performances saw him fend off peak Ronaldo to earn the 1996 Ballon D'Or later that year.

FABIO CANNAVARO, WORLD CUP 2006
The Berlin Wall drove Italy to the title with an impeccable series of flawless performances throughout the tournament. The highlight was a man-mountain display in the famous semi-final to overcome hosts Germany. But Cannavaro's overall tournament portfolio is arguably unmatched in its defensive prowess. Joins Sammer as one of only three defenders to win the Ballon D'Or.

LILLIAN THURAM, WORLD CUP 1998
Thuram was the highest rated player at the 1998 World Cup and the standout for a dominant and defensively bulletproof French outfit. A key tactical feature of Aime Jacquet's side was the overload of the midfield with an extra defender. All four of the defensive line including Thuram took turns at creating that midfield dominance and, in turn, spent the majority of the game, when on the ball, forming a tight back three. Thuram was exceptional at both - defensively rock solid and swashbuckling when moving forward - generating the type of influential performances that made him the highest rated defender in the 1998 Ballon D'Or.

ROBERTO CARLOS, WORLD CUP 2002
Twice in the team of the tournament, it is the 2002 version which is on show here. That Roberto Carlos played in a 3-5-2, liberated to own the flank in the same way he did every week alongside Zidane for Real Madrid. Called El Hombre Bala - the bullet man - in Spain for his searing pace, tree-trunk thighs and cannonball shot.

JAVIER ZANETTI, COPA AMERICA 2004
Argentina's most capped player started off his international career scoring the best set-piece goal of the 1998 World Cup in a rollercoaster match against England. His best international tournament though was the 2004 Copa America where his endless stamina, power and poise dominated his right flank in every game, gaining high praise:
Left on the bench for a World Cup qualifier in June and many assumed he was finished. Emphatically proved the contrary with a series of storming displays down the right flank.
BASTIAN SCHWEINSTEIGER, WORLD CUP 2010
The man who made it a personal crusade to win the World Cup as ultimately shown by his man-of-the-match efforts in the 2014 final. Went very close in 2010 where he dictated games with aplomp, using his brilliant passing range, physicality and positional discipline to give Germany a solid platform to go forward. Special mention to his second-round performance in making mincemeat out of Maradona's wayward Argentina while marking Messi out of the game. An obvious choice for team of the tournament with 3 assists to his name.

LOTHAR MATTHAUS, WORLD CUP 1990
In what was surely the most influential central midfield performance of any World Cup, Matthaus was in dominant form in 1990 scoring 4 goals from the heart of midfield (the 3rd top scorer in the competition). The apex was the 4-1 demolition of pre-tournament dark horses Yugoslavia, as the box-to-box dynamo netted two bristling goals from outside the area. A step ahead of the game throughout as he not only won all those little battles that are the bread-and-butter fare of the proper central midfielder, but also made repeated match-winning impacts.

ZINEDINE ZIDANE, EURO 2000
In the summer of 2000, Zidane reached a tournament pinnacle that in the modern era was only clearly bettered by Maradona 14 years earlier. At the peak of his powers, he married that characteristic elegance with the decisiveness that he occasionally lacked during his domestic league career. His mastery of the ball was thrilling to watch and he delivered the knockout blows to both Spain (a 30-yard free-kick) and Portugal (the golden goal penalty) in the knockout stages.
There are no prizes for guessing the outstanding midfielder (and player) of the tournament. Zinedine Zidane rose head and shoulders above everyone else in the finals, taking the art of midfield playmaking to new heights.
JOHAN CRUYFF - 1974 WORLD CUP
In 1974 Cruyff reached heights that had arguably never been seen before in a major tournament. He was the turbocharged driving force behind the unforgettable Dutch side, buzzing around the full breadth of the attack, cutting open and thrusting through the channels with a level of unprecedented intensity and penetration. Little wonder he created a whopping 36 chances in the summer of 1974 - by some distance the most anyone has provided in the World Cup - a greater contribution than even Maradona in 1986 and Xavi in 2010.

RONALDO, WORLD CUP 1998
Golden Ball winner thanks to a number of electric displays from the Brazilian at the peak of his powers. Scored 5 goals in 1998 on his way to 15 World Cup goals, he created countless chances for himself and was the very definition of a one-man attack who tore a generation of great defenders to bits.

WHY WE WILL WIN:

  • Exceptional tournament defence marshalled by Matthias Sammer, Fabio Cannavaro, Lillian Thuram and Peter Schmeichel, each of whom have a strong case to have delivered the greatest tournament performance in their respective positions - Matthias Sammer was voted the best player of the tournament in '96, Cannavaro the second best player in '06 (missing out to his teammate Zidane) and Thuram the third best player in '98 (missing out to his teammate Ronaldo). In contrast none of the opposition defenders were one of the top three players in their respective tournaments - All told we look to have the better tournament defence which is well suited to matching the considerable strength of Raees/Invictus in attack.

  • Our midfield is well set up to contain Maradona. One half of the containing strategy is Bastian Schweinsteiger who twice nullified Lionel Messi in 2010 and 2014. The other half is Lothar Matthaus, who gave Maradona the quietest 45 minutes of his raucous summer of 1986, and who worked in tandem with Buchwald to shut him out completely in 1990. No wonder Maradona sees him as his greatest rival and toughest opponent.

  • Incredible attack illuminated by some sensational tournament showings from Johan Cruyff, Zinedine Zidane and Ronaldo. In particular the synergy between Cruyff and Ronaldo will be off the charts - Cruyff created a World Cup record number of chances in '74 and in a prime Ronaldo there isn't a better man to finish those chances off. R/I have a fine defence, but there's too much electricity in this attack to stop it.
 
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Annahnomoss

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Would love to hear more about why the front three would work together from both sides. Zidane and Ronaldo is fairly obvious but how Cruyff would execute this role here. Even if the teams have the same formation they'd differ a lot in terms of execution with Baresi being the stand-out defender for me. That defense would be a wall and that would lead to Brehme and Cafu having a lot more cover when they go forward. On the other hand Sammer, Carlos and Zanetti exploding forward is an offensive move that may just work.
 

Raees

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Would love to hear more about why the front three would work together from both sides. Zidane and Ronaldo is fairly obvious but how Cruyff would execute this role here. Even if the teams have the same formation they'd differ a lot in terms of execution with Baresi being the stand-out defender for me. That defense would be a wall and that would lead to Brehme and Cafu having a lot more cover when they go forward. On the other hand Sammer, Carlos and Zanetti exploding forward is an offensive move that may just work.
Our attack (why it will work)


First of all, to truly grasp what Van Basten was like during the late 80's, that video is a perfect clip of exactly why he wasn't just one of the greatest 9's but one of the all time great players full stop and if he hadn't got injured.. would be pushing for top 8 of all time.

Fast, elusive, loads of movement.. could drift out wide either flank and run at players with exceptional close control, sublime footwork/skills and decision making in terms of short/long passing, link up play, hold up play.. the perfect attacker basically and a relationship between the perfect 9 and 10 in Maradona would be crafted by the angels in heaven.

Maradona running at the heart of the defence, or dropping deep and at any stage, losing a marker and threading a ball through to Van Basten.. or hitting it into his feet, breaking through enemy lines and getting a clever reverse ball back to him or making a dummy run and letting Van Basten work his magic alone.

Where does Eusebio come into this? It is quite simple.. both Van Basten and Maradona, for all their brilliant are cerebral footballers.. who combine directness with supreme tactical intelligence.. i.e. pick and choose their moments when to go for the kill, whilst that is great.. sometimes you need a livewire in your attack who just is at it all the time, a powerhouse who just causes chaos and draws defenders... stretches the opposition and allows the technicians to execute the final touches... this is where Eusebio comes into play. He's that turbo-charged attacker who will go for it, and just try and run through enemy lines.. and give that attack some powerhouse athleticism and I think each attacker brings something slightly different to that trio.

If we look at MSN as an example, Neymar/Messi are explosive.. but they're both cerebral footballers as well as virtuoso's.. whereas Suarez brings that feral directness to that attack.. and that is the sort of mentality, we want Eusebio to lend to that attack.

Why Gio's attack won't work as well

Difference between Cruyff and Eusebio is that, Cruyff is more of a thinking man's footballer.. who picks and chooses his moment to go for the kill. He likes to construct the game, play with the opponent like a cat plays with a mouse and then make his mark and for me, that is very similar to how Zidane plays.. they both occupy the same areas and want to play at the same tempo.

Ronaldo is the one guy he's got who is like his Eusebio, i.e. picks up the pace of the attack and goes for it. So he's a good fit for either of them, but my issue is whether Cruyff and Zidane are a good fit for each other and I don't think they are in all honesty. I think together they can weave pretty patterns and look gorgeous in linking up, but disrupting an iron wall of a defence with good readers of the game (and GOAT defensive mids in front of them)... it isn't the ideal pairing you'd pick to do so. It would be like watching Iniesta/Messi trying to dismantle a Chelsea set up or an Inter set up from 2010.. they'd combine well, but they wouldn't hurt us.. whereas our trio is much more direct and tactically good fits for each other.

Also if Bergomi man marks Cruyff, like Vogts did and Varela/Tigana restrict Zidane from making an impact.. that means Matthaus will need to make driving runs from deep to disrupt our midfield and leaves Schweini on peak 1986 Maradona to run at him on the counter, which will cause devastation.
 
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Gio

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Good luck chaps. One thing I find odd is that Bergomi has been presented as a better fit based on his tournament performances than Thuram. If anything, it's the other way round. As you can see below, Bergomi played as a conventional right-back in a back 4 in 1988.




Set up: Bergomi - Baresi - Ferri - Maldini







 
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antohan

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:lol:

Even to the point of both arguing their rival RCB played at RB and mot RCB.

What I don't get is why Schweini is the 2010 one and not 2014. Matthäus is head to head with Tigana so Schwein and Varela are the ones minding the #10. Is that the 2010 version?
 

Raees

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@Gio

Based on international experience, do we not agree that Thuram didn't play in central defence until much later in his career.. I mean the only RCB experience he had up to date was with Parma, and as good as that side was.. it was a young Thuram at that stage and internationally only had experience at RB in 1998.. so it is different to Bergomi who already had experience as a man-marking defensive full back/centre back in the 1982 world cup v Kalle... and in 1988 was at the peak of his powers.

Yes you could argue he should be at right back, but those clips hardly show him bombing forward time and time again like a Cafu or Thuram was doing in a wingerless formation in 1998.

Either way we didn't really want to attack Thuram and were going to let it go, but seeing as you raised the issue.. felt the need to respond.
 

Raees

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INVICTUS (SUFFERING FROM INTERNET CONNECTION ISSUES)...

1. Zidane + Cruyff is a bit worrisome, and I'm not sold on their dynamics given the arrogance in each player's game, and the fact that both were creative architects of their team. Seems a bit Di Stéfano + Didi, IMO, and we could see repeats of stuff like this...
2. '90 Lothar was a deep offensive reference point for West Germany from midfield - and the whole structure was build around him with relentless off-the-ball workrate and movement from Littbarski and Häßler - which allowed him to reach his peak (4 goals) by dribbling through the opposition. In a midfield where he'll be asked to do extraneous donkey work for Zidane (who hit his own peak with grafters behind him), I dunno how he'll hit the peak. We addressed this point in the OP, too - and it could be further exgcarbated by the nature of Sammer's play (who was more of a mover in space, where as Auge. That will make him go from peak to:

Meanwhile, Tigana is in his elements as someone who did do the donkey work for a top, top #10 in Platini - and was still super effective in both phases of the game (getting to the 2nd of the Ballon D'Or and leading the tourney in assists - all in the semi and final stages for good measure).

3. 2010 and 2014 Messi are also inconsequential since he was distinctly below par in both tourneys (compared with his Barcelona peak), whereas Maradona is in his ultimate peak.

4. I'd like to know more about 2004 Zanetti - AFAIK he didn't hit great heights in the tourney as a proper wingback, and seems to be be more of a name pick in terms of value, as opposed to a real substance pick for tournament accomplishments...
 
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Gio

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Either way we didn't really want to attack Thuram and were going to let it go, but seeing as you raised the issue.. felt the need to respond.
Funny that you raised it in the OP ;)

I'm not really sure about the point you're making about age there. Thuram was at the peak of his powers in 1998, aged 26, while Bergomi was 24 at Euro '88. Thuram was the highest rated player at the tournament across a number of European sports magazines and played a blinder throughout:

WC 1998
7,10: Thuram (Fra)
7,00: Zidane (Fra)
6,95: Davids (Nld)

Bergomi was in the Team of the Tournament in 1988, but hardly covered himself in glory when the Italians crashed out to the Soviet Union in the semi-final, with both Soviet goals coming down his flank. Not the kind of bulletproof showing I'd really want to be doing a credible job on Cruyff in 1974 form.

 

Gio

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Invictus said:
4. I'd like to know more about 2004 Zanetti - AFAIK he didn't hit great heights in the tourney as a proper wingback, and seems to be be more of a name pick in terms of value, as opposed to a real substance pick for tournament accomplishments...
We could have gone with 1998 - when FIFA said that "Zanetti was notable for his physical ability and surprising and effective forward surges in a 3-4-3" - but 2004 was undoubtedly his best tournament. You'll have seen the World Soccer praise from 2004:
Left on the bench for a World Cup qualifier in June and many assumed he was finished. Emphatically proved the contrary with a series of storming displays down the right flank.
And that wasn't just some generic praise - it was part of some section naming it's 3 stars of the competition. Elsewhere it also included some specifics around "his rampaging down the flank against Peru".

Or even the Guardian's summary of the tournament:
Zanetti rampaging down the right flank
He was also named in a team of the tournament.

A few short clips to get a feel for his role:









Admittedly he has had a slightly weird international career, getting dropped for a couple of tournaments by lunatic managers, yet at the same time still piling up 145 caps. But there's no question over the calibre of his performances in 2004.

Importantly he fits well: it's not easy to find two greater flank dominators in a 3-5-2 than Carlos and Zanetti.
 

harms

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What I don't get is why Schweini is the 2010 one and not 2014
Oh, I even missed it - I was absolutely sure that it's 2014 version of him.
Maybe Sammer influenced their decision although I would've still used that defensive powerhouse version with MotM performance in the final.
 

Gio

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Where does Eusebio come into this? It is quite simple.. both Van Basten and Maradona, for all their brilliant are cerebral footballers.. who combine directness with supreme tactical intelligence.. i.e. pick and choose their moments when to go for the kill, whilst that is great.. sometimes you need a livewire in your attack who just is at it all the time, a powerhouse who just causes chaos and draws defenders... stretches the opposition and allows the technicians to execute the final touches... this is where Eusebio comes into play. He's that turbo-charged attacker who will go for it, and just try and run through enemy lines.. and give that attack some powerhouse athleticism and I think each attacker brings something slightly different to that trio.
It would be interesting to see how such a dominating figure as Maradona in 1986 would connect with another direct ball-hogging type in Eusebio. Both of their tournaments were distinguished by their singular directness with the ball, forever running at opposition defences. What worked in both of their favours was that they were the single player in both teams who carried the ball. I think Maradona would really prefer someone who releases the ball quicker and doesn't go off on long solo runs (as good as they often were). There is potential for quite a lot of clashing as they both operate in the same area of the park off Van Basten and, fundamentally, I don't think they really maximise each other's qualities.
 

Raees

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It would be interesting to see how such a dominating figure as Maradona in 1986 would connect with another direct ball-hogging type in Eusebio. Both of their tournaments were distinguished by their singular directness with the ball, forever running at opposition defences. What worked in both of their favours was that they were the single player in both teams who carried the ball. I think Maradona would really prefer someone who releases the ball quicker and doesn't go off on long solo runs (as good as they often were). There is potential for quite a lot of clashing as they both operate in the same area of the park off Van Basten and, fundamentally, I don't think they really maximise each other's qualities.

The aim is to recreate the dynamic of two superstar creative forwards, one with more attacking midfielder instincts and probably the greatest passer if not one of the greatest passers of all time in the final third (remember his world cup winning assist in the 86 final) with a more dribbling ball carrying focused forward. Remember Neymar and Messi are both number 10's for their respective nations, yet dovetail beautifully together as one is more prone to occupying the wings and the other picks it up deep and playmakes.. which is the dynamic here.

Maradona plays deeper than Eusebio, that is not up for debate.. its a fact, their respective goal records indicate one is more a goalscorer, dynamic presence in final third and the other is an out and out playmaker who can also go on solo runs and score goals.

In contrast Cruyff and Zidane are both playmakers, and both play at a slower tempo.. I wouldn't call Eusebio a playmaker and to do so would completely misrepresent what he was as a player.

MAKE YOUR OWN MIND UP.. DYNAMIC BETWEEN DIEGO '86 AND EUSEBIO 66

Maradona drifting wider to the right:




Through balls for Luisito (who an expert at evading the last defender):


Maradona on the inside right dribbling to the left as Eusébio fades to the right:


Maradona on the left when Eusébio goes right:


Using the movement of the front 3:

 

Raees

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Interplay at the edge of the box:


Dropping deep :lol::


Dribbling in the final third:


Overall dynamics of the Triumvirate:


Probably the best version of THAT goal:

Eusébio could release Maradona with a pass when he drops:


He could attack through the left when Maradona goes slightly wide:


He could go wide left and release an onrushing Maradona or Brehme:


 

Enigma_87

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Would love to hear more about why the front three would work together from both sides. Zidane and Ronaldo is fairly obvious but how Cruyff would execute this role here. Even if the teams have the same formation they'd differ a lot in terms of execution with Baresi being the stand-out defender for me. That defense would be a wall and that would lead to Brehme and Cafu having a lot more cover when they go forward. On the other hand Sammer, Carlos and Zanetti exploding forward is an offensive move that may just work.
I thought the same about Eusebio and Cruyff.

For Eusebio he loved to drop deep centrally and Maradona will most likely limit that being the centerpiece of the Argie side in 1986. But then again @Joga Bonito got me thinking as in a 4 man back line I'd either use him in a 4-3-3 without designated #10 playmaker or in a 4-4-2, or even 4-5-1 as a highly mobile forward. In a 3-5-2 / 5-3-2 however, he most likely, will have more space to operate wide and could roam all over the attack which suits his game a lot. He also can work off MvB and has more freedom to take players on albeit in a slightly off center positions and cut inside. So that would definitely suit his style. The front three being more individualistic and generally having a team build around them definitely is a valid point, but then again we're in the SF's of an all time draft so most likely each of those front three will be the same - group of the very top players who had a grand tournaments and stole the highlight reels.

Same goes on the other end really - Zidane, Cruyff, Ronaldo - the players around whom the team was based on and as big centerpieces as Maradona was for Argentina in 86' - having the big chunk of the creativity and attack of the team on their shoulders.

For example this is Cruyff in 1974:


Literally all over the pitch.

All in all I can see both front three being fluid and fluent enough to make it work.

It's very tight always at this stage to separate two top teams so I expect here to be the same.
 

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The aim is to recreate the dynamic of two superstar creative forwards, one with more attacking midfielder instincts and probably the greatest passer if not one of the greatest passers of all time in the final third (remember his world cup winning assist in the 86 final) with a more dribbling ball carrying focused forward. Remember Neymar and Messi are both number 10's for their respective nations, yet dovetail beautifully together as one is more prone to occupying the wings and the other picks it up deep and playmakes.. which is the dynamic here.
Not sure that's a great comparison. Barcelona play 4-3-3 with Messi and Neymar on opposite ends of the park. You've got a 3-5-2 / 3-4-2-1 with Maradona and Eusebio occupying central roles.

Maradona plays deeper than Eusebio, that is not up for debate.. its a fact, their respective goal records indicate one is more a goalscorer, dynamic presence in final third and the other is an out and out playmaker who can also go on solo runs and score goals.
True, although Maradona played in a 3-5-1-1 for Argentina in 1986, so played off that CF in the same way you'd want him to do here.
 

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I thought the same about Eusebio and Cruyff.

For Eusebio he loved to drop deep centrally and Maradona will most likely limit that being the centerpiece of the Argie side in 1986. But then again @Joga Bonito got me thinking in a 4 man back line I'd either use him in a 4-3-3 without designated #10 playmaker or in a 4-4-2, or even 4-5-1 as a highly mobile forward. In a 3-5-2 / 5-3-2 however, he most likely, will have more space to operate wide and could roam all over the attack which suits his game a lot. He also can work off MvB and has more freedom to take players on albeit in a slightly off center positions and cut inside. So that would definitely suit his style. The front three being more individualistic and generally having a team build around them definitely is a valid point, but then again we're in the SF's of an all time draft so most likely each of those front three will be the same - group of the very top players who had a grand tournaments and stole the highlight reels.

Same goes on the other end really - Zidane, Cruyff, Ronaldo - the players around whom the team was based on and as big centerpieces as Maradona was for Argentina in 86' - having the big chunk of the creativity and attack of the team on their shoulders.

For example this is Cruyff in 1974:


Literally all over the pitch.

All in all I can see both front three being fluid and fluent enough to make it work.

It's very tight always at this stage to separate two top teams so I expect here to be the same.
For me you have to look at the personality and styles of the players.

If you said to Eusebio, you can't drop into the centre circle when you please, but you can drop into either wing position.. drift centrally just behind the striker, and drift ahead of the number 9 when you please, and your job is to run at players and score goals.. will he feel hard done by and feel like his game is restricted?

I don't think his natural game would be that hampered by Maradona's presence and if anything would enhance his ability to escape any man marking jobs on him like he had to endure in 1966.

In contrast if you said to Cruyff, stay on the left wing and let Zidane run the game.. he'd be highly offended and it would affect the way he sees the game as he's a highly passionate guy who likes to be the architect of his sides philosophy and entire way of attacking. He wants it to go through him.
 

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Oh, I even missed it - I was absolutely sure that it's 2014 version of him.
Maybe Sammer influenced their decision although I would've still used that defensive powerhouse version with MotM performance in the final.
Yeah from both set up's this is what stands out IMO. The 2014 version suits the game much more IMO.

I have no problems with Bergomi and Thuram in their respective roles. I have mentioned Thuram being used as a RB, but it was more due to his role in the WC. Certainly won't take the defensive performance from him in that world cup as he's tasked here.
 

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Its not a criticism.. I'd say Maradona plays at a slower tempo than a Eusebio.

As in some players pass, pass and then bam.. go into acceleration mode. Maradona didn't always turn and go for goal, he liked to playmake and seize the right moment to go forwards with the ball, similar to Cruyff/Zidane.. whereas guys like R9 and Eusebio were more powerhouse forwards who were much more direct and wanted to go straight towards goal and not fanny around.
 

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Not sure that's a great comparison. Barcelona play 4-3-3 with Messi and Neymar on opposite ends of the park. You've got a 3-5-2 / 3-4-2-1 with Maradona and Eusebio occupying central roles.
Come on Gio, that simply isn't true.. anyone that watches Barca, can see that Messi pretty much plays as an inside right/number 10 and drifts wide occasionally, Neymar constantly cuts in to link up with Suarez/Messi and the current Barca set up doesn't have anywhere neat the quality width we have here in Cafu and Brehme.
 

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For me you have to look at the personality and styles of the players.

If you said to Eusebio, you can't drop into the centre circle when you please, but you can drop into either wing position.. drift centrally just behind the striker, and drift ahead of the number 9 when you please, and your job is to run at players and score goals.. will he feel hard done by and feel like his game is restricted?

I don't think his natural game would be that hampered by Maradona's presence and if anything would enhance his ability to escape any man marking jobs on him like he had to endure in 1966.

In contrast if you said to Cruyff, stay on the left wing and let Zidane run the game.. he'd be highly offended and it would affect the way he sees the game as he's a highly passionate guy who likes to be the architect of his sides philosophy and entire way of attacking. He wants it to go through him.
I agree with Eusebio being a less of a dominant figure, but then again Cruyff is also an ultimate team player, so hard to separate.

Indeed Eusebio will be finding space elsewhere as from first sight it seemed to me that Maradona can restrict him, but then again he has the inside left and inside right channel and also the outside wide positions when he's not overlapped or on counter so he should have space in attack.
 

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Its not a criticism.. I'd say Maradona plays at a slower tempo than a Eusebio.

As in some players pass, pass and then bam.. go into acceleration mode. Maradona didn't always turn and go for goal, he liked to playmake and seize the right moment to go forwards with the ball, similar to Cruyff/Zidane.. whereas guys like R9 and Eusebio were more powerhouse forwards who were much more direct and wanted to go straight towards goal and not fanny around.
Not sure that I agree on your view on Cruyff. Especially in 1974, he was incredibly direct - quite the opposite of Zidane and his style of play.
 

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In contrast if you said to Cruyff, stay on the left wing and let Zidane run the game.. he'd be highly offended and it would affect the way he sees the game as he's a highly passionate guy who likes to be the architect of his sides philosophy and entire way of attacking. He wants it to go through him.
He played with Van Hanegem, who was in many ways similar to Zidane in that slightly to the left midfield position and nonchalant approach to the game. Another thing that even though van Hanegem was a hell of a personality, he still accustomed himself to fit in the team and I'm not 100% sure that Zidane would.
 

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I thought the same about Eusebio and Cruyff.

For Eusebio he loved to drop deep centrally and Maradona will most likely limit that being the centerpiece of the Argie side in 1986. But then again @Joga Bonito got me thinking as in a 4 man back line I'd either use him in a 4-3-3 without designated #10 playmaker or in a 4-4-2, or even 4-5-1 as a highly mobile forward. In a 3-5-2 / 5-3-2 however, he most likely, will have more space to operate wide and could roam all over the attack which suits his game a lot. He also can work off MvB and has more freedom to take players on albeit in a slightly off center positions and cut inside. So that would definitely suit his style. The front three being more individualistic and generally having a team build around them definitely is a valid point, but then again we're in the SF's of an all time draft so most likely each of those front three will be the same - group of the very top players who had a grand tournaments and stole the highlight reels.

Same goes on the other end really - Zidane, Cruyff, Ronaldo - the players around whom the team was based on and as big centerpieces as Maradona was for Argentina in 86' - having the big chunk of the creativity and attack of the team on their shoulders.

For example this is Cruyff in 1974:


Literally all over the pitch.

All in all I can see both front three being fluid and fluent enough to make it work.

It's very tight always at this stage to separate two top teams so I expect here to be the same.
The beauty of Cruyff for me is how he can buzz around the attack, spinning into the channels and linking up with Ronaldo. As you can see in the highlights video, he isn't a cerebral playmaker sitting in the centre circle stroking his chin. In contrast to Zidane who was fundamentally a central and slightly slower player, the majority of Cruyff's best work is roaming around the attack and down the channels creating chances for the other attackers. And he plays at a hell of a pace, using the ball quickly when he can - firing out passes to cut open the opposition defence. He buzzes around and would dovetail really well with Ronaldo in particular.
 

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He played with Van Hanegem, who was in many ways similar to Zidane in that slightly to the left midfield position and nonchalant approach to the game. Another thing that even though van Hanegem was a hell of a personality, he still accustomed himself to fit in the team and I'm not 100% sure that Zidane would.



For me these videos of his full 90.. shows him in his true light, which is a Maradona style playmaker (with the ability to take the game away via dribbling at heart of opposition) but needing a free role to get best out of him.

There has been a trend on all time drafts to use him as a left winger and shoe horn him into all time sides, which for me is a misuse of him completely, whereas Eusebio clips show him just operating as a free lance forward with minimal playmaking abilities outside of some neat link up play but mostly him operating across the final third trying to wreak havoc.

I rate Cruyff the better footballer and all-round attacker, but for me in terms of tactical fit, Eusebio is more comfortable here than Cruyff is in his imo.
 

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Cryuff's favourite formation on show here :p.

Two cracking sides here with both defenses being top notch. That being said, I'd say the sweeper/libero arguably suit the other side more (Sammer could provide more oomph from the back for R/I, whilst Baresi makes more sense with Lothar there), not that it's a big issue anyway as both are great in their respective set-ups.

Slight margins but I can't really see Cruyff dovetailing well with Zidane here, if anything I can see them being at loggerheads with each other. It's fairly subjective though as a few have bought into Cruyff's directness meshing well with Zidane's more cerebral style. Imo, what made Cruyff one of the greatest ever was his playmaking ability and how he commandeered the entire side and left his mark upon them. He was direct and an explosive player capable of roaming all over the pitch, but first and foremost he was a playmaker who took charge of his side and dictated play. He wasn't the type to dovetail well with another dominant and languid playmaker imo. The late sixties more forward-esque Cruyff might be more suitable here perhaps.

Tbf, we are at the business end of the draft here and overlaps are to be expected (Maradona-Eusebio isn't 100% perfect for instance), but I can see Maradona-Euesbio-van Basten functioning more cohesively than Zidane-Cruyff-Ronaldo, with the Dutchman not being the best of fits in that set-up imo. That was enough to give Raees/Invictus the edge here for me as there isn't much to separate both sides elsewhere on the pitch.
 

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For me these videos of his full 90.. shows him in his true light, which is a Maradona style playmaker (with the ability to take the game away via dribbling at heart of opposition) but needing a free role to get best out of him.

There has been a trend on all time drafts to use him as a left winger and shoe horn him into all time sides, which for me is a misuse of him completely, whereas Eusebio clips show him just operating as a free lance forward with minimal playmaking abilities outside of some neat link up play but mostly him operating across the final third trying to wreak havoc.

I rate Cruyff the better footballer and all-round attacker, but for me in terms of tactical fit, Eusebio is more comfortable here than Cruyff is in his imo.
The problem with Eusebio is that he doesn't necessarily get the best out of Maradona, because he likes to pick up the ball in some of the same positions and likes to go on long slaloming runs, while Maradona is impatiently waiting for the return ball.

Cruyff works because he has a central role here buzzing around Ronaldo and Zidane which reflects what he did in 1974. He complements both - a punchier more penetrative alternative to Zidane - and another pacey and technically brilliant attacker to dovetail with Ronaldo.

I agree that you wouldn't want to confine him to some left-wing outpost (which I think I've only ever seen once in these drafts), but equally there's a hipster tendency to go too far the other way with Cruyff - i.e. to have no player within 30 yards of him on your teamsheet. Which is nonsense really because he is a collective player who thrives on interplay and different options.
 

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There has been a trend on all time drafts to use him as a left winger and shoe horn him into all time sides, which for me is a misuse of him completely, whereas Eusebio clips show him just operating as a free lance forward with minimal playmaking abilities outside of some neat link up play but mostly him operating across the final third trying to wreak havoc.
Where is it mentioned that Cruyff is operating as a left winger? I took him as a free role forward.

I rate Cruyff the better footballer and all-round attacker, but for me in terms of tactical fit, Eusebio is more comfortable here than Cruyff is in his imo.
Have to disagree here too. Cruyff is tactically so versatile to make 'shoehorning' very difficult. And I can't think of any situation where I'd have Eusebio over Cruyff in a left sided forward role.
 

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Am I the only one who sees Zidane as a van Hanegem-esque figure on the left?

On paper you would've thought that van Hanegem and Cruyff would've been a terrible pairing - both played basically the same roaming playmaking role in their clubs, albeit very differently, both had enormous egos. But somehow they clicked together. That set-up didn't get the best of Van Hanegem, obviously, but it still was amazing to watch

So it's closer to that for me

--------Cruyff--Ronaldo
Carlos-Zidane--Matthaus-Zanetti
------------Schweiny (preferably 2014)

 
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Raees

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Where is it mentioned that Cruyff is operating as a left winger? I took him as a free role forward.


Have to disagree here too. Cruyff is tactically so versatile to make 'shoehorning' very difficult. And I can't think of any situation where I'd have Eusebio over Cruyff in a left sided forward role.
He's positioned on the left side of the graphic, but even if we were to say he's a free role forward, as the video's of him imply.. he'd gravitate towards centre circle, look to try and run the show as well as try and have impact on final third.

Tactically versatile implies you could ask him to play as a right winger, or a left winger, or follow different tactical instructions and stick to them.. that isn't how Cruyff worked. He was versatile in terms of the areas he took up on the pitch in every game, but you couldn't ask him to put in a shift on the left flank or ask him to stick to certain areas of the pitch.. he wouldn't stand for that.

Anyway, think we have all exhausted this debate.
 

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Am I the only one who sees Zidane as a van Hanegem-esque figure on the left?

On paper you would've thought that van Hanegem and Cruyff would've been a terrible pairing - both played basically the same roaming playmaking role in their clubs, albeit very differently, both had enormous egos. But somehow they clicked together. That set-up didn't get the best of Van Hanegem, obviously, but it still was amazing to watch

So it's closer to that for me

--------Cruyff--Ronaldo
Carlos-Zidane--Matthaus-Zanetti
------------Schweiny (preferably 2014)
Think Zidane was in a more advanced position rather than Hanegem in that 4-3-3. He's more of a dominant figure as a playmaker end generally more individualistic player.

But of course Cruyff played in set ups with other playmakers so there is a point in that.

Depends on who G/T want to run the game for them - Zidane or Cruyff - both possible in doing it, or rather sharing the responsibility and working together.
 

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@harms Tbf though van Hanegem was more of a complete midfielder who was capable of playing deeper in midfield and using his left sided tendencies and long-range passing in combination with his work-rate and tactical nous. Cruyff said something along those lines didn't he, if he had a bad game then that was it but van Hanegem could still run about and be useful for his team off the ball or something like that. Also as you've mentioned he wasn't necessarily playing in his Feyenoord role in Netherlands 1974, but a slightly more restrained role (yet brilliantly as it suppressed some of his qualities whilst bringing others to the fore). Unfortunately for Zidane, he isn't as dynamic, malleable or well-rounded relatively and is more of a dominant and languid player on the ball imo.
 

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Beautiful clips @Raees. I miss him :(


I recently came across an even more stunning dimension to THAT goal. After the game Valdano went over to congratulate Maradona and El Pibe de Oro told him it was "a fluke", that from the start of the move he had been mindful of his run and just kept going waiting for the right opportunity to play him through.

Now watch it again with that in mind. Try keep your eyes ofF Diego and you will see the pass wasn't on at any point... In fact it was at one point but given how the other defenders were closing in on both from the right it would have to go behind Valdano, which makes no sense, so he kept going and eventually, well... he just had to score himself.

Amazing. That's the beauty of Maradona which sometimes gets missed, not just the artistry of what he was doing but how his brain kept processing the options on the go, making decisions, always the right decisions, while his feet and body were executing dribbles that you wouldn't dream of even if you applied yourself 100% to that alone.

Oddly, it only dawned on me once he went fat and immobile, I remember watching him from very high up in a stadium and the pig just stood there as defenders closed in and next thing you knew he made a pass which really wasn't there. I mean, I was up there with the full aerial view and couldn't see it until it materialised and went "Ah, of course". It happened at least a dozen times. However much I focused on solely trying to anticipate his move, it was impossible. He was absolutely fecking insane, that little player gliding down the pitch isn't just a great dribbler but has the brain of a chess master also running at full pelt.
 

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For me you have to look at the personality and styles of the players.

If you said to Eusebio, you can't drop into the centre circle when you please, but you can drop into either wing position.. drift centrally just behind the striker, and drift ahead of the number 9 when you please, and your job is to run at players and score goals.. will he feel hard done by and feel like his game is restricted?

I don't think his natural game would be that hampered by Maradona's presence and if anything would enhance his ability to escape any man marking jobs on him like he had to endure in 1966.

In contrast if you said to Cruyff, stay on the left wing and let Zidane run the game.. he'd be highly offended and it would affect the way he sees the game as he's a highly passionate guy who likes to be the architect of his sides philosophy and entire way of attacking. He wants it to go through him.
Depends on what language you spoke to both in.
 

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Think Zidane was in a more advanced position rather than Hanegem in that 4-3-3
Of course, I'm not saying that they are similar players, but that something vaguely similar can become from Zidane/Cruyff's partnership. More dilatory deep-ish version of Zidane (with immense defensive cover behind him), and a free-roaming Cruyff dynamic.

Van Hanegem was far from dynamic though, even though hardwork and positioning made up for it.
 

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Invictus said:
4. I'd like to know more about 2004 Zanetti - AFAIK he didn't hit great heights in the tourney as a proper wingback, and seems to be be more of a name pick in terms of value, as opposed to a real substance pick for tournament accomplishments...
I can see where you are coming from in terms of the convenience of picking Zanetti and all the kudos he gets while plucking him from some random Copa America most wouldn't have watched.

For what it's worth, that Zanetti under Bielsa was the best he ever was for the Argentinian NT and that Bielsa team relied on Zanetti and Sorín operating as wingbacks, so it's bang on the money as far as I'm concerned.

In fact, if any of you have been engaged in convo with me banging on about picking Sorín as a wingback (crappy is definitely one of the many who ultimately ignored me or reluctantly picked him once all the other options were gone), that's why. The most exciting thing about that Bielsa side was Sorín and Zanetti as wingbacks. They were brilliant.