A great article on Cruyff with some cracking anecdotes and quotes
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/johan-cruyff-icon
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/johan-cruyff-icon
Raees/Invictus VS Gio/Theon - NT Peak draft - Semi Final
- Thread starter Annahnomoss
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
As an aside to that, I think Bielsa is quoted as saying his perfect 'system' goal would have been one wing-back crossing for the other wing-back to score. That almost happened in the 2004 Copa America final, in the 87th minute no less, with Zanetti crossing from the right flank, Sorin hurtling in from the left to win the header in the box, and Delgado burying the loose ball.
Last edited:
At the bus/coins storyFRANCO BARESI AND THE 1990 WORLD CUP...
He played as if he were in peak form despite injury plaguing him (just as it would in 1994). In Baresi's own opinion and those of well-informed observers, it was his best campaign for the national team.
No sooner did a gap appear than Baresi with his intuition and acceleration made it disappear. He anticipated and read the play so well he finished sentences for Brazil's strikers. Then he imposed himself. He stepped out from the back with his shirt out -- a tribute to Ruud Krol -- played it out and followed the play.
STYLE OF PLAY
Ferocious in the tackle and yet undemonstrative verbally, Baresi was very much a leader by example, seldom expressing himself to his teammates other than to maintain the defensive discipline and organisation that was the hallmark of any team led by him. He was, however, no mere ‘hatchet-man’ backline defender. He was blessed with an ability to read the game defensively, and when seized of the opportunity to carry the ball out of defence for club and country he was a gifted playmaker, with an acute sense of game-craft.
It was a style that led many to compare him to the legendary Franz Beckenbauer who had defined the libero role a generation earlier. Whilst many would say that the Bayern Munichplayer had been superior moving forward with the ball into midfield, surely very few would dispute that Baresi was far and away the more accomplished defender. Each had their own style.
LIBERO
The libero position was ideal for Baresi. His ability to read the game allowed him to eliminate many attacking threats before they had an opportunity to develop. Prodding his backline into position, tackling and intercepting, before taking the ball forward, he became the leading light of the Rossoneridefence. It was often as much for his dedication to the game, as his lauded skills, that Baresi earned his teammates’ respect. He was acutely aware of the standards he needed to maintain to earn such acclaim: “For people to look up to you, your behaviour needs to be beyond reproach. Training, hard work and an excellent relationship with supporters are guiding principles that should never be taken lightly.”
When asked about the sort of defenders he admired, Baresi’s answer perhaps reveals much about how he perceives the game: “I liked people like Ruud Krol, that kind of elegant, considered defender who liked to play football as well as defend.” Such approach also meant that the issue of his stature was negated somewhat. Maldini remarked: “He was a short, skinny guy but so strong. He could jump so high. The way he played on the field was an example for everybody. He wasn’t a big speaker, no, no, no. The way he played, the way he trained was an example. For me, he was the role model. He was a reference. He was also very good with the ball. It is very hard to find a good defender, who is strong and good with the ball. Very hard.”
BEGINNING OF HIS INTERNATIONAL CAREER
His international career began in 1980 when, whilst still playing for Italy’s under-21 side, he was selected to join his brother in the squad for the European Championships to be played in Italy. He never played in the tournament as Italy finished fourth. Two years later the situation was repeated in the Spain World Cup, although the Italian triumph there surely compensated more than somewhat for his lack of involvement. He played and scored during the 1984 Olympic tournament, but missed out on a medal as the Italians were defeated by Yugoslavia in the bronze medal play-off after losing to Brazil in the semi-final.
The same year saw him win his first senior international cap during a European Championship qualifying game against Romania. Unsurprisingly, the Baresi-inspired defence kept a clean sheet in Florence that day, but the Azzurri failed to qualify for the tournament finals. The following few years were a troubling time internationally as the then-Italy manager, Enzo Bearzot, saw Baresi more as a holding midfielder than a sweeper. It was a role that the talented Baresi could doubtless play with ease, but pitted against the likes of Marco Tardelli – plus ironically his brother, Giuseppe – for that spot in the team, it meant an inevitable ‘second-choice’ status. It was not a situation Baresi was used to being cast in, and without any doubt it cost him a number of caps.
When Azeglio Vicini replaced Bearzot, however, he wasted little time in realigning the natural order of things. Baresi was quickly returned to the fold in his natural position of sweeper and established himself as regular member of the team, playing every match of the 1988 European Championships where the Azzurri reached the semi-finals. When the 1990 World Cuprolled round – to be played on Italian soil – there was little doubt that Baresi would be key to the hopes of the host country.
1990 WORLD CUP
He duly made his World Cup debut and was outstanding throughout as Italy progressed to the semi-final stage. Now in his pomp, under Baresi’s guidance the Azzurri backline kept five consecutive clean sheets in the tournament, recording over 500 minutes without conceding and only seeing their defence breached twice in all. Unfortunately, following a goalless draw after 90 minutes and extra-time, they succumbed to Argentina on penalties, when the Italian curse of 17 struck as Roberto Donadoni missed the vital spot kick. Baresi had been the first of the Italians to step up, and duly slotted home his spot-kick. His performances meant inclusion in the FIFA select eleven of the tournament was inevitable.
THE TRAGIC SEQUEL (PAST HIS PEAK IN 1994 AGAINST ROMARIO IN HIS PRIME)
Franco Baresi reached down to touch his right knee. It hadn't felt the same since he had stretched to make a clearance seconds earlier. As he walked, a sharp pain shot through his leg, making him limp. The Italy No. 6 didn't want to go off. Italy had lost their opening game of USA '94 to a looping strike from Republic of Ireland's cartwheeling Ray Houghton. Now in their next game, things threatened to get worse.
The Azzurri looked to be on the brink. They were down to 10 men against Norway. Goalkeeper Gianluca Pagliuca had been shown a red card for handling outside his area. Roberto Baggio was substituted for Luca Marchegiani, and at the beginning of the second half, with the score still 0-0, their captain was left with no option but to hobble to the sideline and then to the treatment room. From there, Baresi must have heard the noise of Giants Stadium as Dino Baggio nodded home the only goal of the game. Italy's World Cup wasn't over yet. But unfortunately it looked like it was for Baresi.
He had torn his meniscus. All that was left for him to do, it seemed, was salute his teammates and fly back home to Milan. But he couldn't do it. At 34, Baresi didn't believe he had another World Cup in him. He knew his own body and he would -- as it turned out -- retire a year before France '98. "There was an awareness that there wouldn't be another chance," he told Guerin Sportivo. It burned. Baresi had been a member of Italy's World Cup-winning squad in 1982, but as a relative youngster he hadn't played a single minute.
One final opportunity was open to him to be a protagonist. Baresi didn't intend to close it off. "I wanted to be with the team," he said. And so Italy's captain immediately went under the knife, then straight into his rehabilitation. "Frankly, I didn't believe I would make it back, but the more Italy progressed the more I intensified the work. It came to me automatically. There was no timetable, nor were there any expectations on anyone's part."
Characters like that have the fortitude to go beyond the pain barrier, to believe the impossible is nothing. Still it was a surprise that when the day of the final arrived in '94, Italy were there and Baresi was too. He had recovered in only 25 days. "It was an incredible situation," Baresi recalled. "The knee was clinically healed. By operating so soon we had avoided any muscle loss. But I had only done a little running. I had never trained with the team." It didn't matter. Italy were in desperate need of him.
For one thing, Alessandro "Billy" Costacurta and Mauro Tassotti were suspended. And in addition to that their inspiration, Roberto Baggio, was practically playing on one leg: it was the one that had endured multiple knee surgeries too. How would Baresi's hold together? "The first intervention I made was important. It would give me the right reassurances. From then onwards my thoughts were no longer about the knee, but only Romario and Bebeto."
Baresi dominated the field, nullifying every attack the Seleção could muster. Time after time he broke down Romário and Bebeto’s moves and carried his team through the 120 minutes in the baking sun. If Brazil wanted to win the Brazilian way, Baresi stopped them the Italian way. He did what he could for his country that day, leaving the conclusion of the final in cruel fate’s hands.
Baresi was captain when Italy travelled to America for the World Cup in 1994. At 34, he knew this was his last chance to win the World Cup, but an injury in the first round against Norway made him miss several matches and he wasn’t ready until the final against Brazil, where he played the game of his life. Brazil evenutally won on penalties and Franco missed one of the penalties for Italy. It was his 81st and final match for Italy.
He played as if he were in peak form despite injury plaguing him (just as it would in 1994). In Baresi's own opinion and those of well-informed observers, it was his best campaign for the national team.
Italy's national teams of the 1980s and '90s were always in good hands with Franco Baresi on the pitch.
No sooner did a gap appear than Baresi with his intuition and acceleration made it disappear. He anticipated and read the play so well he finished sentences for Brazil's strikers. Then he imposed himself. He stepped out from the back with his shirt out -- a tribute to Ruud Krol -- played it out and followed the play.
STYLE OF PLAY
Ferocious in the tackle and yet undemonstrative verbally, Baresi was very much a leader by example, seldom expressing himself to his teammates other than to maintain the defensive discipline and organisation that was the hallmark of any team led by him. He was, however, no mere ‘hatchet-man’ backline defender. He was blessed with an ability to read the game defensively, and when seized of the opportunity to carry the ball out of defence for club and country he was a gifted playmaker, with an acute sense of game-craft.
It was a style that led many to compare him to the legendary Franz Beckenbauer who had defined the libero role a generation earlier. Whilst many would say that the Bayern Munichplayer had been superior moving forward with the ball into midfield, surely very few would dispute that Baresi was far and away the more accomplished defender. Each had their own style.
LIBERO
The libero position was ideal for Baresi. His ability to read the game allowed him to eliminate many attacking threats before they had an opportunity to develop. Prodding his backline into position, tackling and intercepting, before taking the ball forward, he became the leading light of the Rossoneridefence. It was often as much for his dedication to the game, as his lauded skills, that Baresi earned his teammates’ respect. He was acutely aware of the standards he needed to maintain to earn such acclaim: “For people to look up to you, your behaviour needs to be beyond reproach. Training, hard work and an excellent relationship with supporters are guiding principles that should never be taken lightly.”
When asked about the sort of defenders he admired, Baresi’s answer perhaps reveals much about how he perceives the game: “I liked people like Ruud Krol, that kind of elegant, considered defender who liked to play football as well as defend.” Such approach also meant that the issue of his stature was negated somewhat. Maldini remarked: “He was a short, skinny guy but so strong. He could jump so high. The way he played on the field was an example for everybody. He wasn’t a big speaker, no, no, no. The way he played, the way he trained was an example. For me, he was the role model. He was a reference. He was also very good with the ball. It is very hard to find a good defender, who is strong and good with the ball. Very hard.”
BEGINNING OF HIS INTERNATIONAL CAREER
His international career began in 1980 when, whilst still playing for Italy’s under-21 side, he was selected to join his brother in the squad for the European Championships to be played in Italy. He never played in the tournament as Italy finished fourth. Two years later the situation was repeated in the Spain World Cup, although the Italian triumph there surely compensated more than somewhat for his lack of involvement. He played and scored during the 1984 Olympic tournament, but missed out on a medal as the Italians were defeated by Yugoslavia in the bronze medal play-off after losing to Brazil in the semi-final.
The same year saw him win his first senior international cap during a European Championship qualifying game against Romania. Unsurprisingly, the Baresi-inspired defence kept a clean sheet in Florence that day, but the Azzurri failed to qualify for the tournament finals. The following few years were a troubling time internationally as the then-Italy manager, Enzo Bearzot, saw Baresi more as a holding midfielder than a sweeper. It was a role that the talented Baresi could doubtless play with ease, but pitted against the likes of Marco Tardelli – plus ironically his brother, Giuseppe – for that spot in the team, it meant an inevitable ‘second-choice’ status. It was not a situation Baresi was used to being cast in, and without any doubt it cost him a number of caps.
When Azeglio Vicini replaced Bearzot, however, he wasted little time in realigning the natural order of things. Baresi was quickly returned to the fold in his natural position of sweeper and established himself as regular member of the team, playing every match of the 1988 European Championships where the Azzurri reached the semi-finals. When the 1990 World Cuprolled round – to be played on Italian soil – there was little doubt that Baresi would be key to the hopes of the host country.
1990 WORLD CUP
He duly made his World Cup debut and was outstanding throughout as Italy progressed to the semi-final stage. Now in his pomp, under Baresi’s guidance the Azzurri backline kept five consecutive clean sheets in the tournament, recording over 500 minutes without conceding and only seeing their defence breached twice in all. Unfortunately, following a goalless draw after 90 minutes and extra-time, they succumbed to Argentina on penalties, when the Italian curse of 17 struck as Roberto Donadoni missed the vital spot kick. Baresi had been the first of the Italians to step up, and duly slotted home his spot-kick. His performances meant inclusion in the FIFA select eleven of the tournament was inevitable.
[/QUOTE]
THE TRAGIC SEQUEL (PAST HIS PEAK IN 1994 AGAINST ROMARIO IN HIS PRIME)
Franco Baresi reached down to touch his right knee. It hadn't felt the same since he had stretched to make a clearance seconds earlier. As he walked, a sharp pain shot through his leg, making him limp. The Italy No. 6 didn't want to go off. Italy had lost their opening game of USA '94 to a looping strike from Republic of Ireland's cartwheeling Ray Houghton. Now in their next game, things threatened to get worse.
The Azzurri looked to be on the brink. They were down to 10 men against Norway. Goalkeeper Gianluca Pagliuca had been shown a red card for handling outside his area. Roberto Baggio was substituted for Luca Marchegiani, and at the beginning of the second half, with the score still 0-0, their captain was left with no option but to hobble to the sideline and then to the treatment room. From there, Baresi must have heard the noise of Giants Stadium as Dino Baggio nodded home the only goal of the game. Italy's World Cup wasn't over yet. But unfortunately it looked like it was for Baresi.
He had torn his meniscus. All that was left for him to do, it seemed, was salute his teammates and fly back home to Milan. But he couldn't do it. At 34, Baresi didn't believe he had another World Cup in him. He knew his own body and he would -- as it turned out -- retire a year before France '98. "There was an awareness that there wouldn't be another chance," he told Guerin Sportivo. It burned. Baresi had been a member of Italy's World Cup-winning squad in 1982, but as a relative youngster he hadn't played a single minute.
One final opportunity was open to him to be a protagonist. Baresi didn't intend to close it off. "I wanted to be with the team," he said. And so Italy's captain immediately went under the knife, then straight into his rehabilitation. "Frankly, I didn't believe I would make it back, but the more Italy progressed the more I intensified the work. It came to me automatically. There was no timetable, nor were there any expectations on anyone's part."
Characters like that have the fortitude to go beyond the pain barrier, to believe the impossible is nothing. Still it was a surprise that when the day of the final arrived in '94, Italy were there and Baresi was too. He had recovered in only 25 days. "It was an incredible situation," Baresi recalled. "The knee was clinically healed. By operating so soon we had avoided any muscle loss. But I had only done a little running. I had never trained with the team." It didn't matter. Italy were in desperate need of him.
For one thing, Alessandro "Billy" Costacurta and Mauro Tassotti were suspended. And in addition to that their inspiration, Roberto Baggio, was practically playing on one leg: it was the one that had endured multiple knee surgeries too. How would Baresi's hold together? "The first intervention I made was important. It would give me the right reassurances. From then onwards my thoughts were no longer about the knee, but only Romario and Bebeto."
Baresi dominated the field, nullifying every attack the Seleção could muster. Time after time he broke down Romário and Bebeto’s moves and carried his team through the 120 minutes in the baking sun. If Brazil wanted to win the Brazilian way, Baresi stopped them the Italian way. He did what he could for his country that day, leaving the conclusion of the final in cruel fate’s hands.
Baresi was captain when Italy travelled to America for the World Cup in 1994. At 34, he knew this was his last chance to win the World Cup, but an injury in the first round against Norway made him miss several matches and he wasn’t ready until the final against Brazil, where he played the game of his life. Brazil evenutally won on penalties and Franco missed one of the penalties for Italy. It was his 81st and final match for Italy.
I think in an all-time draft that would undoubtedly be the case. And in an all-time draft I'd also take Desailly over Cannavaro. But in a tournament draft, I think Sammer and Cannavaro delivered the best libero and central defender performances of anyone. Baresi was very good and I've probably sung his praises higher than anyone on the Caf. He was class on the ball, but Sammer's attacking contribution was on another level which is saying something. Italy didn't concede until the semi-final in 1990, but an important point is that they mostly faced a lot of average sides who played negatively - USA, Austria, Ireland, even Uruguay. Czechoslovakia were a decent side, but nothing memorable. It's hard to identify a top striker amongst that lot - Skuhravy maybe, Polster, but no wonder Italy kept a tight ship until they faced the first top attack. Another point in Sammer's favour is the quality of his German back line - Helmer, Babbel, Ziege, Reuter - all clearly a couple of notches below what Italy boasted in Maldini, Ferri, Ferrara, Bergomi and Vierchowod. So ultimately I think Sammer wins out in terms of defensive and attacking influence.
RELIVING MARADONA IN 1986 (Can Schweini keep tabs on him?)
Just a little bit more on Schweinsteiger:
2010 v Messi
Schweinsteiger
"Schweinsteiger had a tremendous game. He bossed play from his deep-lying role, completing more passes than any other player. He also made a couple of crucial interventions in his own penalty area to guard against Argentina’s early breaks – stopping the aforementioned Messi cut-back, then intercepting when Messi attempted to play the ball right to Lavezzi on the break. He also performed his defensive responsibilities well despite being on a (harsh) booking for over 90 minutes, and the fact both he and Howedes were cautioned after half an hour gave further encouragement to Messi and Lavezzi to dribble in inside-right positions.
Schweinsteiger also helped to nullify Messi in his favoured number ten role. That’s not to say Messi had no influence on the game, but his best moments came either out wide on the right, or when sprinting in behind the defence. Shortly before half-time he received a ball over the top in the inside-right channel, forcing Jerome Boateng into some dramatic last-ditch defending, then at the start of the second half, he sprinted in behind for a one-on-one with Manuel Neuer from the left, pulling his shot wide. These were fine opportunities, but they weren’t Schweinsteiger’s responsibility – he forced Messi away from his favoured zone."
Not that he'll be solely responsible for dealing with Maradona. That'll be a collective effort. With a significant contribution from Matthaus, the man who he struggled to get away from in his 1986 prime, and who largely nullified him (with Buchwald) in 1990.
2010 v Messi
2014 World Cup Final (Zonalmarking report)Zonal Marking said:
Schweinsteiger
"Schweinsteiger had a tremendous game. He bossed play from his deep-lying role, completing more passes than any other player. He also made a couple of crucial interventions in his own penalty area to guard against Argentina’s early breaks – stopping the aforementioned Messi cut-back, then intercepting when Messi attempted to play the ball right to Lavezzi on the break. He also performed his defensive responsibilities well despite being on a (harsh) booking for over 90 minutes, and the fact both he and Howedes were cautioned after half an hour gave further encouragement to Messi and Lavezzi to dribble in inside-right positions.
Schweinsteiger also helped to nullify Messi in his favoured number ten role. That’s not to say Messi had no influence on the game, but his best moments came either out wide on the right, or when sprinting in behind the defence. Shortly before half-time he received a ball over the top in the inside-right channel, forcing Jerome Boateng into some dramatic last-ditch defending, then at the start of the second half, he sprinted in behind for a one-on-one with Manuel Neuer from the left, pulling his shot wide. These were fine opportunities, but they weren’t Schweinsteiger’s responsibility – he forced Messi away from his favoured zone."
Not that he'll be solely responsible for dealing with Maradona. That'll be a collective effort. With a significant contribution from Matthaus, the man who he struggled to get away from in his 1986 prime, and who largely nullified him (with Buchwald) in 1990.
Thuram is the all-time gold-standard when it comes to RCB's in a back three - he was an exceptional defensive right back and an equally effective centre back (which is why tactically he is such a great fit for that hybrid position). And at club level of course for both Parma and Juventus (with Cannavaro) he excelled as a RCB in a 3-5-2 - IMO there is no better fit for the role.
Before responding to the point on Bergomi's position - I think it's worth mentioning that Thuram comfortably had the better tournament performance and received the Bronze Ball as the third best player of the tournament. That's a peak that virtually no defender has reached in the World Cup.
Bergomi's role
In terms of Bergomi I don't believe his role for Italy in '88 was anything other than a defensive right back (similar to Thuram). My view when I watched the games was that it was Ferri and Baresi as the central defensive pair with Bergomi at RB and Maldini at LB. I re-watched the games briefly at the weekend and Bergomi is certainly the right back as far as I'm concerned - so I'm not buying that he's somehow a better pick than Thuram at all.
Here are some gifs as examples - there were literally hundreds you could have made from the game. And also to be clear this isn't a criticism of Bergomi, I just thought it was work clarifying given that Thuram was being questioned in the same match.
That's Bergomi at RB - Ferri clears the ball from CB
Bergomi clearing the ball from RB
Bergomi receiving the ball at RB and playing a pass
Playing a pass down the right flank
Bergomi defending at right back
Bergomi clearing the ball from RB
Bergomi receiving the ball at RB and playing a pass
Playing a pass down the right flank
Bergomi defending at right back
Lothar Matthaus
“He is the best rival I’ve ever had. I guess that’s enough to define him.”
Diego Maradona
Widely regarded as the greatest box-to-box midfielder of all time and the most complete midfielder to ever grace the pitch - Matthaus boasted an unparalleled combination of defensive nous (see his successful man-marking job on Maradona in the '86 final) and goal threat (hitting 23 goals in 46 games at his peak).
Winner of the Ballon D'Or winner in 1990 (the only central midfielder to do so since 1962) - Matthaus was the Captain, leader and standout player for Germany at Italia '90, driving the team to victory against Maradona's Argentina in the final.
During the course of the tournament Matthaus was impeccable, scoring four goals from central midfield whilst dominating the game defensively and acting as the foundation for West German attacks in possession.
His ability to cover every inch of grass whilst offering so much on the ball marks him out as one of the best midfielders ever - particularly based on World Cup performances in which few players have matched his impact.
“He is the best rival I’ve ever had. I guess that’s enough to define him.”
Diego Maradona
Widely regarded as the greatest box-to-box midfielder of all time and the most complete midfielder to ever grace the pitch - Matthaus boasted an unparalleled combination of defensive nous (see his successful man-marking job on Maradona in the '86 final) and goal threat (hitting 23 goals in 46 games at his peak).
Winner of the Ballon D'Or winner in 1990 (the only central midfielder to do so since 1962) - Matthaus was the Captain, leader and standout player for Germany at Italia '90, driving the team to victory against Maradona's Argentina in the final.
During the course of the tournament Matthaus was impeccable, scoring four goals from central midfield whilst dominating the game defensively and acting as the foundation for West German attacks in possession.
His ability to cover every inch of grass whilst offering so much on the ball marks him out as one of the best midfielders ever - particularly based on World Cup performances in which few players have matched his impact.
Thesefootballtimes said:
Sportsnet said:
Last edited:
Masopust and Charlton?
Aye, spot on with Masopust - I checked that list like three times to make sure but still fecked up
I wouldn't count Charlton personally though, it's close because he was so well rounded but I think he was a different type of player.
Fully agree with that post and your choice, I would have picked the 2010 World Cup for Schweinsteiger as well. He was brilliant throughout in South Africa, arguably the best central midfielder of the tournament. He played the same role as in 2014 as the deepest midfielder and kept Messi quiet in that 4-0 quarterfinal. Obviously the 2014 final stands out, because Argentina were much better and he had that big battle with Mascherano and Messi, but he missed a couple of games at the beginning of the tournament in Brazil and didn't need to do much up until the final.
He won the Ballon d'Or 1990, no? Pretty much because of his performances at the World Cup. Not a year later.
Urgh. I need to go to bed.
Apologies - edited. Thanks for pointing that out (should have been obvious given what I was writing).
@Gio with the greatest of respect marking Leo Messi of 2010, is a completely different prospect to marking Diego Maradona 1986 the greatest international footballer the game has ever seen based on 1986. During the 3 years of Messi's prime.. there was no world cup, and in the lead up to 2014 ..
Messi and world cup 2014..
Messi continued to struggle with injury throughout 2013, eventually parting ways with his long-time personal physiotherapist.[146] Further damage to his hamstring sustained on 12 May ended his goalscoring streak of 21 consecutive league game.
Messi suffered his fifth injury of 2013 when he tore his hamstring on 10 November, leaving him sidelined for two months.[152][153] Despite his injuries, he was voted runner-up for the FIFA Ballon d'Or, relinquishing the award after a four-year monopoly to Cristiano Ronaldo.[154]
During the second half of the 2013–14 season, doubts persisted over Messi's form, leading to a perception among the culés that he was reserving himself for the 2014 FIFA World Cup. Statistically, his contribution of goals, shots, and passes had dropped significantly compared to previous seasons. Messi finished the campaign with his worst output in five seasons, though he still managed to score 41 goals in all competitions.[156][159] For the first time in five years, Barcelona ended the season without a major trophy; they were defeated in the Copa del Rey final by Real Madrid and lost the league in the last game to Atlético Madrid, causing Messi to be booed by sections of fans at the Camp Nou.[160][161] After prolonged speculation over his future with the club, Messi signed a new contract on 19 May 2014, only a year after his last contractual update; his salary increased to €20 million, or €36 million before taxes, the highest wage ever in the sport
Ahead of the World Cup in Brazil, doubts persisted over Messi's form, as he finished an unsuccessful and injury-plagued season with Barcelona. At the start of the tournament, however, he gave strong performances, being elected man of the match in their first four matches.[157][272] In his first World Cup match as captain, he led them to a 2–1 victory over Bosnia and Herzegovina; he helped create their early opening goal and scored their second strike after a dribble past three players, his first World Cup goal since his debut in the tournament eight years earlier.[273] During the second match against Iran, he scored an injury-time goal from 23 metres out to end the game in a 1–0 win, securing their qualification for the knockout phase.[274] He scored twice in the last group match, a 3–2 victory over Nigeria, his second goal from a free kick, as they finished first in their group.[275] Messi assisted a late goal in extra time to ensure a 1–0 win against Switzerland in the round of 16, before starting the play that led to their match-winning 1–0 goal in the quarter-final against Belgium, helping Argentina progress to the semi-final of the World Cup for the first time since 1990.[276][277] Following a 0–0 draw in extra time, they eliminated the Netherlands 4–2 in a penalty shootout to reach the final.
Billed as Messi versus Germany, the world's best player against the best team, the final was a repeat of the 1990 final featuring Diego Maradona.[279][280] Within the first half-hour, Messi had started the play that led to a goal, but it was ruled offside. He missed several opportunities to open the scoring throughout the match, in particular at the start of the second half when his breakaway effort went wide of the far post.
Dealing with Maradona 1986 (World Cup final against Germany)
Schweini is a formidable foe, but come on this is Maradona 86 he is up against. A guy who in his prime made Rijkaard mince meat (arguably the best DM of all time).
Not much has been said about Varela and Tigana either.. I think tactically they're a more disciplined pair and a better match up against two roaming playmakers in Zidane/Cruyff.. you can't find a better midfield pair in this draft who would be more perfectly suited to keeping tabs on those guys, by marking the space in front of the defence zonally.
Messi and world cup 2014..
Messi continued to struggle with injury throughout 2013, eventually parting ways with his long-time personal physiotherapist.[146] Further damage to his hamstring sustained on 12 May ended his goalscoring streak of 21 consecutive league game.
Messi suffered his fifth injury of 2013 when he tore his hamstring on 10 November, leaving him sidelined for two months.[152][153] Despite his injuries, he was voted runner-up for the FIFA Ballon d'Or, relinquishing the award after a four-year monopoly to Cristiano Ronaldo.[154]
During the second half of the 2013–14 season, doubts persisted over Messi's form, leading to a perception among the culés that he was reserving himself for the 2014 FIFA World Cup. Statistically, his contribution of goals, shots, and passes had dropped significantly compared to previous seasons. Messi finished the campaign with his worst output in five seasons, though he still managed to score 41 goals in all competitions.[156][159] For the first time in five years, Barcelona ended the season without a major trophy; they were defeated in the Copa del Rey final by Real Madrid and lost the league in the last game to Atlético Madrid, causing Messi to be booed by sections of fans at the Camp Nou.[160][161] After prolonged speculation over his future with the club, Messi signed a new contract on 19 May 2014, only a year after his last contractual update; his salary increased to €20 million, or €36 million before taxes, the highest wage ever in the sport
Ahead of the World Cup in Brazil, doubts persisted over Messi's form, as he finished an unsuccessful and injury-plagued season with Barcelona. At the start of the tournament, however, he gave strong performances, being elected man of the match in their first four matches.[157][272] In his first World Cup match as captain, he led them to a 2–1 victory over Bosnia and Herzegovina; he helped create their early opening goal and scored their second strike after a dribble past three players, his first World Cup goal since his debut in the tournament eight years earlier.[273] During the second match against Iran, he scored an injury-time goal from 23 metres out to end the game in a 1–0 win, securing their qualification for the knockout phase.[274] He scored twice in the last group match, a 3–2 victory over Nigeria, his second goal from a free kick, as they finished first in their group.[275] Messi assisted a late goal in extra time to ensure a 1–0 win against Switzerland in the round of 16, before starting the play that led to their match-winning 1–0 goal in the quarter-final against Belgium, helping Argentina progress to the semi-final of the World Cup for the first time since 1990.[276][277] Following a 0–0 draw in extra time, they eliminated the Netherlands 4–2 in a penalty shootout to reach the final.
Billed as Messi versus Germany, the world's best player against the best team, the final was a repeat of the 1990 final featuring Diego Maradona.[279][280] Within the first half-hour, Messi had started the play that led to a goal, but it was ruled offside. He missed several opportunities to open the scoring throughout the match, in particular at the start of the second half when his breakaway effort went wide of the far post.
Dealing with Maradona 1986 (World Cup final against Germany)
As highlighted by our South American friend above.. Messi lacks that street fighter spirit that is needed to truly go toe to toe with hard man midfielders in the international arena, where you find yourself out of your comfort zone against unfamiliar opponents/surroundings.
Schweini is a formidable foe, but come on this is Maradona 86 he is up against. A guy who in his prime made Rijkaard mince meat (arguably the best DM of all time).
Not much has been said about Varela and Tigana either.. I think tactically they're a more disciplined pair and a better match up against two roaming playmakers in Zidane/Cruyff.. you can't find a better midfield pair in this draft who would be more perfectly suited to keeping tabs on those guys, by marking the space in front of the defence zonally.
@Raees It's interesting that both of those Maradona GIFs from the 1986 final were from after Matthaus had stopped marking him and passed on the duties to Forster. 
Fecking hell! I forgot how brutal it was
Definitely a different one - but a central midfielder nonetheless. Of course it's all very subjective though, so I can see why you'd exclude him, even though I wouldn'tAye, spot on with Masopust - I checked that list like three times to make sure but still fecked up
I wouldn't count Charlton personally though, it's close because he was so well rounded but I think he was a different type of player.
CAFU AND BREHME - GREATEST ATTACKING RIGHT AND LEFT WING BACKS IN TOURNAMENT HISTORY
Brehme was the best chance creating defender in World Cup history:
And well as a GOAT level crosser:
Which is a brilliant fit with 6'2" Van Basten facing 5'9" Cannavaro. And the logic that Cannavaro can jump high doesn't work here because Van Basten is GOAT header, and 5 inches taller.
Brehme was the best chance creating defender in World Cup history:
And well as a GOAT level crosser:
Which is a brilliant fit with 6'2" Van Basten facing 5'9" Cannavaro. And the logic that Cannavaro can jump high doesn't work here because Van Basten is GOAT header, and 5 inches taller.
He only passed the man marking duties on because Argentina were already 2-0 up and the decision to focus their entire attention on Diego failed. He has a much better support cast here as well with GOAT wing backs, and GOAT attackers alongside him.@Raees It's interesting that both of those Maradona GIFs from the 1986 final were from after Matthaus had stopped marking him and passed on the duties to Forster.
VAN BASTEN V SAMMER BATTLE
Not much has been said about this battle.. but am I the only one here who thinks in such a tight match, Van Basten in his prime would marginally edge out a Sammer in his prime who defensively wasn't in the tier of a Scirera, Baresi or Figueroa?
Sammer was quite aggressive, and gung-ho type of defender and Sammer needs cover from midfield to operate the way he did in 1996...
VAN BASTEN V GERMANY (KOHLER) EURO 88
As much as I rate Cannavaro and Sammer in this context, the truth is neither has come up against an attacker of Van Basten gravitas in his prime... with Maradona and Eusebio behind him and the wing backs, he's gonna have chances and he's gonna put them away.
Not much has been said about this battle.. but am I the only one here who thinks in such a tight match, Van Basten in his prime would marginally edge out a Sammer in his prime who defensively wasn't in the tier of a Scirera, Baresi or Figueroa?
Sammer was quite aggressive, and gung-ho type of defender and Sammer needs cover from midfield to operate the way he did in 1996...
Who's going to do this? Bastian? Then who's minding Maradona?
VAN BASTEN V GERMANY (KOHLER) EURO 88
As much as I rate Cannavaro and Sammer in this context, the truth is neither has come up against an attacker of Van Basten gravitas in his prime... with Maradona and Eusebio behind him and the wing backs, he's gonna have chances and he's gonna put them away.
Despite the level of tournament attacking legends on display here, this match screams extratime or shootout to me. With the sturdy 5 at the back set-ups from both managers if this was a real match I just picture it very cagey and not as firepower based as the team sheets might suggest. I would definitely place a bet on this match being a draw after 90. Maradona going against Sammer and Matthaus and Zidane going against Tigana and Obdulio is going to create a lot of rough moments. I can see both sides attackers becoming frustrated with the wall of defense on both sides.
Because of that I would have liked to see Ronaldo '02 here. I understand the logic of picking the version in the midst of physical peak but I feel sometimes in drafts the mental side of the game gets overlooked for the physical. And mentality wise '02 Ronaldo just seems perfectly suited to this set-up and this match in general. Definitely more than his younger '98 self. I just can't imagine Ronaldo '98 affecting the outcome of this match the way 02 Ronaldo might well do.
Because of that I would have liked to see Ronaldo '02 here. I understand the logic of picking the version in the midst of physical peak but I feel sometimes in drafts the mental side of the game gets overlooked for the physical. And mentality wise '02 Ronaldo just seems perfectly suited to this set-up and this match in general. Definitely more than his younger '98 self. I just can't imagine Ronaldo '98 affecting the outcome of this match the way 02 Ronaldo might well do.
FWIW, I agree although I see the logic in picking 98 version to give their attack some direct oomph.
I think Baresi is the perfect defender to go up against that 98 version of Ronaldo.. as he is super responsive against dribblers and a great reader of the game.
That clip you quote is exactly what springs to mind every time someone complains about diving and how players no longer ride tackles. It's majestic, beautiful stuff. feck this whole protecting players shit, it's not me getting kicked!
That's a fair point actually. Good to see another mentality hipster around. Mind, that's what makes me cream myself with Gio's German trio.
Can't say I agree with this as Sammer was an excellent defender and whilst he did have specialist cover in 1996, I don't quite think that's necessary here with an extremely industrious midfield duo of Lothar and Schweinsteiger. Besides whilst I'd give the likes of Beckenbauer, Baresi etc the edge from a purely defensive perspective, Sammer was a mighty fine defender in his own right (not relevant here but his display in the CL final against Juve was something else). Likewise he was brilliant defensively in 96 too. And as much as I love van Basten, he's well matched against that defense of Sammer, Cannavaro (06 form) and Thuram. However I do think that relatively speaking, your forward trio is more cohesive and could potentially derive more joy in this match than the opposition trio, whom I'm not too sold on (the Cruyff-Zidane dynamic in particular )
Diego would have probably avoided a couple of injuries and had an even better career.
Tbf, I'd wager that growing up in that tough environment was what made him (and his mentality). Or he could have become Messi-like, all soft and stuff, for all we know
.Haha, Messi is pretty strong though.Tbf, I'd wager that growing up in that tough environment was what made him (and his mentality). Or he could have become Messi-like, all soft and stuff, for all we know
Just wish the same protection was there in place a lot earlier and we wouldn't have had to see unfortunate scenes like Puskas, Pele etc getting kicked around in WCs and taking away a part of their greatest career moments among a lot of others. Thankfully, it's happened eventually.
I don't really see this as a battle per se. Surely Sammer will be the covering defender, with Thuram and Cannavaro generally picking up Eusebio and van Basten, and Schweinsteiger on Maradona? Now Sammer will still have all sorts of fires to put out, but then that's what he did so well during his brilliant peak. I've said it before regarding watching those matches live, but it was incredible to me how he managed to impose himself in every area of the pitch. I saw a fair bit of Baresi first time around, with his brilliant surges up the pitch, but Sammer was the most dynamic libero I ever saw in real time. I'm still edging towards your team if anything (I've got a serious fondness for that attack as you know
) but you can probably sustain an argument for Gio's three defenders being the top three in the whole draft.Both teams are pretty much worthy of winning a final right now without any reinforcements, but Maradona looks the most likely to make the difference to me, as the best player in the draft, in a strong set up for him, and with a favourable-ish direct opponent in Schweinsteiger.
No doubt their defensive trio on paper (based on tourney peak) is immense but look at the calibre of attackers they faced compared the pedigree of attackers that the likes of Baresi and co snuffed out over the years, i.e. Kalle, Romario, Ronaldo - albeit a half fit one but Rivaldo was playing too (Desailly's performance in 98 where he finished 2nd behind Thuram in the Castrol index and had to lead the French defence in the final in the absence of Blanc) Vieri, Laudrup.. all in their pomp.I don't really see this as a battle per se. Surely Sammer will be the covering defender, with Thuram and Cannavaro generally picking up Eusebio and van Basten, and Schweinsteiger on Maradona? Now Sammer will still have all sorts of fires to put out, but then that's what he did so well during his brilliant peak. I've said it before regarding watching those matches live, but it was incredible to me how he managed to impose himself in every area of the pitch. I saw a fair bit of Baresi first time around, with his brilliant surges up the pitch, but Sammer was the most dynamic libero I ever saw in real time. I'm still edging towards your team if anything (I've got a serious fondness for that attack as you know
Both teams are pretty much worthy of winning a final right now without any reinforcements, but Maradona looks the most likely to make the difference to me, as the best player in the draft, in a strong set up for him, and with a favourable-ish direct opponent in Schweinsteiger.
Compare that to Henry (not quite the blistering peak in 06 but still formidable), Zola, Klose, Trezeguet. Suker and Shearer both scored against Sammer led defences (Van Basten is on a whole different level to either),
Remember Italy in 2006, played Ghana, USA (1-1), Czech Rep, Australia, Ukraine.
I mean if we add Thuram from 2006 performances at CB, a young Torres from 2006 can be added to that list but overall its still a underwhelming list of attackers compared to the direct opponents that our trio faced.
I also think the sheer athleticism and exceptional defensive skills of each of our trio makes them a formidable match for any type of attacker, whereas I think our trio of attackers are much more physically dominant and capable of scaring defenders with their electricity and strength and power.
SAMMER 96 V DAVOR SUKER
Last edited:
What about Varela and Maradona in the same midfield.. can it get mentally tougher than that? also Brehme and Cafu are much more mentally tougher at international level than Carlos/Zanetti as a pairing in full backs.
I'd argue also that Van Basten 88 is tougher than Ronaldo 98 mentally.
SCHWEINSTEIGER 2010 V MESSI
MESSI 2014 FINAL (COLLECTIVE TEAM EFFORT - WAS NOT MAN MARKED BY BASTIAN)
To expect Schweinsteiger to predominantly keep tabs on Maradona, for me doesn't work tactically.. you need a team effort to keep Diego quiet, as in 1986 he reached the highest individual peak of any attacker in tournament history.. Bastian is not a good enough tackler, or pure DM to handle a man marking job on a dribbler as good as Messi.. which means there will be chances for Maradona to get past him regularly and run at the heart of the opposition.
MESSI 2014 FINAL (COLLECTIVE TEAM EFFORT - WAS NOT MAN MARKED BY BASTIAN)
To expect Schweinsteiger to predominantly keep tabs on Maradona, for me doesn't work tactically.. you need a team effort to keep Diego quiet, as in 1986 he reached the highest individual peak of any attacker in tournament history.. Bastian is not a good enough tackler, or pure DM to handle a man marking job on a dribbler as good as Messi.. which means there will be chances for Maradona to get past him regularly and run at the heart of the opposition.
I agree with the confusion regarding Zidane and Cruyff. The way I see it, Sammer advancing will form a diamond in @Gio 's midfield. This leaves Cruyff with two options:
1) To move out to the left wing. This will ensure a more effective possession game but Cruyff himself would have a more peripheral role.
2) Stay central. Cruyff's individual game will be better but the central areas being too congested, plus Baresi's presence means attacks might break down often, instead creating opportunities for @Raees to counter.
I would rather prefer either a wide forward or a target-man to be Gio's third attacker while Cruyff replaces Zidane as no. 10. There would be more end-product to build-up that way.
1) To move out to the left wing. This will ensure a more effective possession game but Cruyff himself would have a more peripheral role.
2) Stay central. Cruyff's individual game will be better but the central areas being too congested, plus Baresi's presence means attacks might break down often, instead creating opportunities for @Raees to counter.
I would rather prefer either a wide forward or a target-man to be Gio's third attacker while Cruyff replaces Zidane as no. 10. There would be more end-product to build-up that way.
@Raees It's Helmer who loses the ball there, Sammer is blameless.
I think it's pretty clear that we have a stronger set of tournament-performing defenders. Sammer faced tougher opposition than Baresi in 1990 with much weaker teammates - yet was still more influential.
And Cannavaro probably boasts the most flawless series of central defensive of anyone. No wonder they called him the Berlin Wall. He's a good match for Van Basten as well, incredibly springy in the air, and would relish attacking the first ball and the type of service the Dutchman would want to receive.
On the other side Thuram matches up well to Eusebio. Both are dynamic rangy athletes with similar physical qualities and I can't think of anyone better to face up to the attacker. Thuram is the best RCB / defensive right back of all time and entrenched that status by delivering such a level of performance in the 1998 World Cup (supported by an excellent Euro 2000 and 2006 World Cup).
I think it's pretty clear that we have a stronger set of tournament-performing defenders. Sammer faced tougher opposition than Baresi in 1990 with much weaker teammates - yet was still more influential.
And Cannavaro probably boasts the most flawless series of central defensive of anyone. No wonder they called him the Berlin Wall. He's a good match for Van Basten as well, incredibly springy in the air, and would relish attacking the first ball and the type of service the Dutchman would want to receive.
On the other side Thuram matches up well to Eusebio. Both are dynamic rangy athletes with similar physical qualities and I can't think of anyone better to face up to the attacker. Thuram is the best RCB / defensive right back of all time and entrenched that status by delivering such a level of performance in the 1998 World Cup (supported by an excellent Euro 2000 and 2006 World Cup).
Bit of a simple reason but Diego 86 and van Basten 88 for me are a level above their counterparts here.
ROAMING ACROSS MIDFIELD/SHOTS FROM DISTANCE
TELEPATHIC RELATIONSHIP WITH VAN BASTEN (THROUGH BALLS/CROSSES)
TELEPATHIC RELATIONSHIP WITH VAN BASTEN (THROUGH BALLS/CROSSES)
I don't think based on international performances in that RCB position you can claim he is the best of all time. Best right back yes, but best RCB of all time? no not in my opinion, unless you started bringing Champions League form into it - but right up there, of course..and that is even if we accept playing as a right back in a diamond counts as being a defensive right back.
Secondly, our attack is fluid, with Eusebio having freedom to roam across the front line and therefore Thuram would have to find himself at LB/LCB if he was to follow him everywhere, which I don't think has been made clear from your tactical detail.
If Eusebio stuck to left wing, agreed.. good match up there, but that will not be the case in this game.
Sammer might seem blameless, but that sort of silly goal you would never see from a Baresi backline in either 90 or 94 where they play their way into trouble.
@SirMattBugsby Cruyff did his best work in 1974 in the channels and in wide areas as a free-roaming attacker. That's where his direct assists came from and where the majority of his record-breaking 36 chances he created came from.
He dovetails with Zidane because Cruyff played at a higher octane and was much more influential higher up the park and into the channels - neither of which were Zidane's bread-and-butter. You could give Cruyff a more central 10 role behind a forward line absolutely, but it would not necessarily reflect where he was most influential and decisive in '74.
He dovetails with Zidane because Cruyff played at a higher octane and was much more influential higher up the park and into the channels - neither of which were Zidane's bread-and-butter. You could give Cruyff a more central 10 role behind a forward line absolutely, but it would not necessarily reflect where he was most influential and decisive in '74.
Got to agree with Gio that the mistake there was all on Helmer for that ham-fisted attempted clearanceNo doubt their defensive trio on paper (based on tourney peak) is immense but look at the calibre of attackers they faced compared the pedigree of attackers that the likes of Baresi and co snuffed out over the years, i.e. Kalle, Romario, Ronaldo - albeit a half fit one but Rivaldo was playing too (Desailly's performance in 98 where he finished 2nd behind Thuram in the Castrol index and had to lead the French defence in the final in the absence of Blanc) Vieri, Laudrup.. all in their pomp.
Compare that to Henry (not quite the blistering peak in 06 but still formidable), Zola, Klose, Trezeguet. Suker and Shearer both scored against Sammer led defences (Van Basten is on a whole different level to either),
Remember Italy in 2006, played Ghana, USA (1-1), Czech Rep, Australia, Ukraine.
I mean if we add Thuram from 2006 performances at CB, a young Torres from 2006 can be added to that list but overall its still a underwhelming list of attackers compared to the direct opponents that our trio faced.
I also think the sheer athleticism and exceptional defensive skills of each of our trio makes them a formidable match for any type of attacker, whereas I think our trio of attackers are much more physically dominant and capable of scaring defenders with their electricity and strength and power.
SAMMER 96 V DAVOR SUKER
. As regards quality of opposition, I don't think either defence comes up short in that regard. To take Baresi (1990) and Cannavaro (2006) for example, Baresi came up against CFs including Skuhravy, Polster, Caniggia, Quinn, Lineker, Fonseca and whoever the USA centre forward was, plus deeper attacking threats like Maradona, Francescoli and Beardsley. Cannavaro faced off agaainst CFs including Gyan, Donovan/McBride, Baros, Viduka, Shevchenko and Henry, with other attacking players like Nedved, Ballack, Zidane and Ribery. There's no gulf either way there IMO.