Ralf Rangnick's consultancy role has been scrapped

[tomaldinho1]

I would tend to agree but there would’ve been uproar amongst our fan base if he hadn’t been given the job after that run. The biggest mistake was probably the time because if the decision had been made at the end of the season he may have got away with it.

Agreed like any normal business but they just knee jerked. He was a caretaker for the season, where was the rush to make him permanent? It came from the ex players, the pundits who make a killing off the club’s woes.

Let him steer the ship until the seasons end as was agreed then take a view. No one would have been in uproar if we’d decided to look elsewhere after we completely fell apart post PSG.

 

[stevoc]

Well he did though, cause he lost Greenwood (& Martial) yet still did 0.07 better in all comps and 0.24 ppg better in the league.
As I say, we can’t spin it to say “he should’ve done better because Ole did with the same squad” when the evidence proves that to be bollocks. Both were shite with the same squad.

He didn't though.

Wasn't Martial injured for most of the first part of the season. Along with Rashford, Cavani and Varane for stretches of games up until November?

It's swings and roundabouts mate. If that's what we're down to paint Ralfs tenure as 'better' then it's a massive stretch. It's also completely ignoring that Ralf managed more games and way more games vs lower teams. So his ppg only being 0.07 higher is fairly meaningless given his overall win ratio.

 

[Wheato]

The squad that RR inherited from Ole was not fit. They couldn't play more than 45 mins without completely running out of steam. Ten Hag fixed this after the Brentford game, when he discovered that they ran an extra 13kms than we did.

Regardless of who the manager is, if you can't outrun the opposition, then you are dead in the water. This is more on Ole than RR, though. We weren't fit. We were sitting back and attacking teams on the break. That was our default position, to concede possession to the opposition, and counter attack with our fast players, even at home to Burnley!

When Rangnick tried to get them to press from the front, they didn't have the fitness levels to do it. Ralf didn't exactly lose the dressing room, he never had it in the first place, and after his plan A failed, everything just descended into chaos and everyone involved couldn't wait for the season to end. I couldn't really blame RR for any of it.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

.

That doesn’t mean Rangnick was any better because you’re ignoring that Solskjaer managed United for longer than a 12 game spell. They were both shite and we’re better off without both of them.

Who’s being the loon here? I’m not suggesting Ralf did better than Ole did in 2020-21 with that squad, I’m arguing against the claim Ole did better with the same squad. He didn’t.

Ole was getting twatted by utter shite, the run of form was no guarantee under him, but for some reason you have it as a given? Makes no sense, we were in freefall, if anything I’d give as much credit to fecking Ole off for that, probably could’ve had a monkey in charge and done better at that point.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

He didn't though.

Wasn't Martial injured for most of the first part of the season. Along with Rashford, Cavani and Varane for stretches of games up until November?

It's swings and roundabouts mate. If that's what we're down to paint Ralfs tenure as 'better' then it's a massive stretch. It's also completely ignoring that Ralf managed more games and way more games vs lower teams. So his ppg only being 0.07 higher is fairly meaningless given his overall win ratio.

Martial missed 3 weeks under Ole in October 21/22, played in defeats v Young Boys & Villa.

Cavani gave zero shits for any manager.

Ole faced only Liverpool, Spurs & City of note in those games. RR faced Atletico twice, Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs.

My final words will just be that Ole was absolutely horrendous last season, he should never be used as an example for anything other than how shit a manager he was last year. Twas telling that our results instantly improved when he got fecked off, even before RR came in.

 

[acnumber9]

Who’s being the loon here? I’m not suggesting Ralf did better than Ole did in 2020-21 with that squad, I’m arguing against the claim Ole did better with the same squad. He didn’t.

Ole was getting twatted by utter shite, the run of form was no guarantee under him, but for some reason you have it as a given? Makes no sense, we were in freefall, if anything I’d give as much credit to fecking Ole off for that, probably could’ve had a monkey in charge and done better at that point.

It was largely the same squad with added Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo. It’s a stretch to say that is weaker than the squad from the season previous. Ole had run his course. Rangnick didn’t know where the course was. Both need to be consigned to the past.

The PPG you’re arguing about equates to 10 points over a full season. Rangnick had five additional games against the teams relegated.

 

[Zen86]

Aye, cause an argument was made that Ralf was especially shitter than shit because Ole did better with the same squad. My 10 posts have been calling that claim bollocks, which it is by every metric.

Both were shite with the same squad, one had his own staff, players and coaching in place before the season, and Greenwood/Martial. So I personally consider that bloke to have been worse.

I’ll always have issues with people trying to spin a positive light on Ole, he was the worst decision this club have made post Fergie.

To be fair, it seems like it’s actually you trying to spin a positive light on RR, despite protesting that you aren’t.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I would tend to agree but there would’ve been uproar amongst our fan base if he hadn’t been given the job after that run.

Yes - but that is the very point: a proper man in charge would have ignored that.

He should have ignored that.

He should have been thinking long term.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

To be fair, it seems like it’s actually you trying to spin a positive light on RR, despite protesting that you aren’t.

Aye, I’ve called him shite about 10 times in this thread.

#toughlove innit

What you once again fail to realise is that this argument started with someone trying to spin a positive light on Ole last season, I’m showing Ole last season was shit on a stick.

 

[Zen86]

Aye, I’ve called him shite about 10 times in this thread.

#toughlove innit

What you once again fail to realise is that this argument started with someone trying to spin a positive light on Ole last season, I’m showing Ole last season was shit on a stick.

Actually it started with someone defending RR; “what if RR had the same squad as ETH”.

At which point you chimed in with numerous posts of quite obviously defending Ralf’s record.

 

[Nas-JR]

Aye, I’ve called him shite about 10 times in this thread.

#toughlove innit

What you once again fail to realise is that this argument started with someone trying to spin a positive light on Ole last season, I’m showing Ole last season was shit on a stick.

Mental that people are debating what you are saying!! Objectively speaking, Ole was 100% factually worse than Rangnick. 0.07 worse is still worse, however insignificant you might claim it is (for context, in a prem season ,38*0.07 = ~3 extra points, so it most certainly matters).

Everything else you mention is also completely accurate. You are not defending either, but just making the completely blatant statement that Ole was worse than Rangnick, but both were horrible.

Ole went into the season high on confidence with his squad and much more vital players available and got battered left right and centre. In comparison, Rangnick took over a battered squad mentally, without his players or squad, and losing very important players post-Jan. I actually went to the west ham game where we got a last min winner and it was very much feel-good at that time. The Greenwood problem absolutely unravelled everything.

People are literally arguing for the sake of it (to save face presumably), this has absolutely no bearing on anything going on right now!

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Actually it started with someone defending RR; “what if RR had the same squad as ETH”.

At which point you chimed in with numerous posts of quite obviously defending Ralf’s record.

Nice try but my involvement began here…

Solskjaer managed to do alright with virtually the same squad (probably a weaker squad in fact).

Let’s see how Ole did with the exact same squad.

But if you want to know how I think RR would do with ETH’s squad, well, much worse, much much worse!

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

From what the cnutish wax work said in his interview, clearly the dressing room never really gave RR a chance, or at least senior players never did.

And while he might have done a bit better, considering fellow top 4 rivals were utter shite as well, he didnt get any January reinforcement, and did correctly identified the problem with the squad. We bought 4 starters (Eriksen, Casemiro, Antony, Licha) + a rotation option/competition in Malacia. We still need a CF at minimum for depth, a new GK, another RB (ETH specifically requested), another creative/tempo setting CM (De Jong) - considering Fred by reports is being let go nect summer, and depending on Maguire situation, another CB. That’s 10, so he hardly overstated the need to refresh the squad.

While we are free to criticise his managerial work, I think what he said about the club structure and the squad’s needs held up well, thus far.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Mental that people are debating what you are saying!! Objectively speaking, Ole was 100% factually worse than Rangnick. 0.07 worse is still worse, however insignificant you might claim it is (for context, in a prem season ,38*0.07 = ~3 extra points, so it most certainly matters).

Everything else you mention is also completely accurate. You are not defending either, but just making the completely blatant statement that Ole was worse than Rangnick, but both were horrible.

Ole went into the season high on confidence with his squad and much more vital players available and got battered left right and centre. In comparison, Rangnick took over a battered squad mentally, without his players or squad, and losing very important players post-Jan. I actually went to the west ham game where we got a last min winner and it was very much feel-good at that time. The Greenwood problem absolutely unravelled everything.

People are literally arguing for the sake of it (to save face presumably), this has absolutely no bearing on anything going on right now!

Absolutely, there’s zero debate last season to say Ole did better than anyone.
The guy was a fecking disaster beyond belief, had 3 years to mould, recruit for hundreds of millions and coach his squad, and gave us that fecking disasterclass of 17 games. Absolute embarrassment of an appointment.

 

[Zen86]

Nice try but my involvement began here…

Which was in response to…

If ETH had RR's squad, where would United be in the table? What if ETH had to play Pogba and Matic instead of Eriksen and Casemiro? Don't forget Maguire would be an automatic starter instead of Martinez. And of course, you had mighty Lingard instead of Antony. I would say United would be 11th or 12th.

Shortly followed up by…

We should also mention he had a worse squad, cause… Greenwood.

The bounce actually came from sacking Ole. We’d lost 7 in 12 up until Watford, then lost just once in 12, winning 8.

We didn’t really hit a shitshow again as you remember until after we went out of the Champions League. At that point the players completely stopped giving a shit.

From losing 7 in 12, we actually lost just 2 games (v. Wolves home & Man City away) until we went to Madrid, that Atletico defeat was our 3rd in 23 games. After that though, the shitshow began as our knobhead players threw in the towel on the interim manager and his coaches as they felt that had zero to play for, they then lost 5 in 9 the spineless feckwits.

Which I have to say sounds awfully defensive of Ralf.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Which was in response to…

Which I clearly didn’t debate did I?

kin ell, it aint hard.

Ole was fecking horrendous, 300m was it? Almost 3 years to coach, recruit and mould? Yeah like feck I’m having anyone try making out he did better than a bloke who inherited a shit show and somehow still outperformed him by every metric.
If you still aint getting it, Ole left a fecking shit show, was utterly wank and I feel for both RR and ETH at the start of this season having to try dealing with it.
Doesn’t make RR a good manager mind, but it did make him unquestionably better than Ole last season. Was RR a good appointment? feck no. Carrick or McKenna probably would’ve done much better, or a tonne of other options. For an interim role he was an especially shit choice in hindsight, especially after hearing Ronaldo’s comments.

 

[Abraxas]

Ole and Ralf were fairly equally terrible in my view. Ole had nosedived and rather than arrest that slump, Ralf seemed to continue that trend. Maybe he's a tiny fraction of a point per game better, but in real terms we know the performances were atrocious and he completely botched an attempt at top 4 that other teams were conspiring to hand us. I believe a competent manager would have had a real shot at reaching that target.

Pretty hard to get too excited about which is better or worse than the other when they were two shades of shite. Ole clearly the more damaging as he wasted resources and was our actual manager, Ralf only had 6 months to make a mess of which he ably did.

 

[Zen86]

Which I clearly didn’t debate did I?

kin ell, it aint hard.

Ole was fecking horrendous, 300m was it? Almost 3 years to coach, recruit and mould? Yeah like feck I’m having anyone try making out he did better than a bloke who inherited a shit show and somehow still outperformed him by every metric.
If you still aint getting it, Ole left a fecking shit show, was utterly wank and I feel for both RR and ETH at the start of this season having to try dealing with it.
Doesn’t make RR a good manager mind, but it did make him unquestionably better than Ole last season.

There it is

 

[Chesterlestreet]

What you once again fail to realise is that this argument started with someone trying to spin a positive light on Ole last season, I’m showing Ole last season was shit on a stick.

It obviously was, I don't know who has tried to deny this.

But if you wanna spin a positive light on it (for whatever reason), an obvious angle would be...Ronaldo.

Yes, Ronaldo.

Not in the sense that Ole was a great manager on his way towards greatness - but the evil Ronaldo fecked that up.

(Nobody remotely objective believes that. And for clarity's sake: I never wanted Ole as our permanent manager - I didn't even want him as an interim at first.)

But we have all witnessed Ronaldo's influence since he arrived in all its glory, both on and off the pitch.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to factor the above in when assessing both Ole and Ralf last season.

And it seems very relevant to ask whether Ole actually wanted Ronaldo back.

I said at the time that I didn't understand the logic, meaning: I didn't understand why Ole (at the current stage of his supposed rebuild process) would want Ronaldo back. And I still don't (obviously).

If you ask me, Ole probably didn't want Ronaldo. But he was (clearly, obviously) too weak to veto that deal. And Ralf was - simply - stuck with him. Like Erik has been this season. A huge, stinking presence in the squad you can't possibly ignore.

 

[moses]

Redcafe, Finger on the Pulse.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

There it is

There is it, the same argument as we started with, Ole was shite. Ralf inherited that utter shite, was shite, an absolutely terrible interim appointment, but still did better than Ole.

There it has been all along.

Absolutely no positive spin, was a terrible appointment. I swear if I type it another 100 times you still won’t get it because you popped in, tried to make a quick snide remark and now don’t want to back down on it.

 

[Isotope]

The players available dictate the style not the other way round. As you say Ralf knew he wasn't here long term so he should have ultilized the players in formations/positions they were used to instead of trying to change everything.

That would be a good discussion.

 

[mu4c_20le]

There is it, the same argument as we started with, Ole was shite. Ralf inherited that utter shite, was shite, an absolutely terrible interim appointment, but still did better than Ole.

There it has been all along.

I'm sorry, what exactly did he do better? Not concede more than 4 goals in a single match for the rest of the season? The guy had like a 33% win rate

 

[Zen86]

There is it, the same argument as we started with, Ole was shite. Ralf inherited that utter shite, was shite, an absolutely terrible interim appointment, but still did better than Ole.

There it has been all along.

Absolutely no positive spin, was a terrible appointment. I swear if I type it another 100 times you still won’t get it because you popped in, tried to make a quick snide remark and now don’t want to back down on it.

Back down on what?

You take this place far too seriously. To be fair though, Ralf was terrible. Ole had his moments earlier on at least. Ralf? Nothing. I sympathise with the guy but it was his own doing. It’s a special achievement to pretty much alienate everyone in such a short space of time.

 

[stevoc]

Martial missed 3 weeks under Ole in October 21/22, played in defeats v Young Boys & Villa.

Cavani gave zero shits for any manager.

Ole faced only Liverpool, Spurs & City of note in those games. RR faced Atletico twice, Liverpool, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs.

Yeah ok but Rashford was missing for the majority of Ole's matches, as I said mate it's swings and roundabouts. Players will be unavailable it's inevitable and Greenwood's absence has been blown out of proportion as it's not like we didn't have a ready made replacement for Greenwood in the brand new £80m right winger we just bought.

My final words will just be that Ole was absolutely horrendous last season, he should never be used as an example for anything other than how shit a manager he was last year. Twas telling that our results instantly improved when he got fecked off, even before RR came in.

I agree, but neither should Ralf Rangnick's equally atrocious record be held up as anything to write home about either in comparison to anyone.

 

[stevoc]

Aye, I’ve called him shite about 10 times in this thread.

#toughlove innit

What you once again fail to realise is that this argument started with someone trying to spin a positive light on Ole last season, I’m showing Ole last season was shit on a stick.

No one was doing that mate. You know that I was referring to the season before.

 

[stevoc]

That would be a good discussion.

I mean there's no real discussion to be had, it's true. At least in the context of the short term which Ralf most certainly was and was only ever going to be. An Interim manager is brought into work with the current squad not to draw up plans to build a new one.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I agree, but neither should Ralf Rangnick's equally atrocious record be held up as anything to write home about either in comparison to anyone.

Absolutely agreed.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

No one was doing that mate. You know that I was referring to the season before.

In fairness none of us know how RR or Carrick or Moyes would have done in 2020-21 after spending a tonne of money and having a 18 months to coach and build a squad. So it’s not a helpful comparison.

 

[stevoc]

Mental that people are debating what you are saying!! Objectively speaking, Ole was 100% factually worse than Rangnick. 0.07 worse is still worse, however insignificant you might claim it is (for context, in a prem season ,38*0.07 = ~3 extra points, so it most certainly matters).

0.07 x 38 = 2.66

So instead of finishing 5th on 26 points we'd have finished 5th on er... ...28.66 points.

 

[stevoc]

In fairness none of us know how RR or Carrick or Moyes would have done in 2020-21 after spending a tonne of money and having a 18 months to coach and build a squad. So it’s not a helpful comparison.

For the most part I'd agree mate, I generally dislike these sort of comparisons but they always crop up in these Ralf threads.

 

[OrcaFat]

No matter how we might want to denigrate Ole and remove any credit from him, I simply cannot see RR ever getting near Ole’s record in the two full seasons he had here.

Is there any point in isolating the last few months of Ole’s tenure and comparing RR’s shit fest to that period? If there is, it eludes me.

Part of me likes RR and I still think he might have had a lot to offer but not as coach.

 

[Nas-JR]

0.07 x 38 = 2.66

So instead of finishing 5th on 26 points we'd have finished 5th on er... ...28.66 points.

~3 means approximately 3 (2.66 rounded is 3). You sort of completely missed my point in that 2/3 points over a pl season matter IN GENERAL!

But again, arguing for the sake of it...

 

[Nas-JR]

All I know is if we didn't hire RR and have an abysmal implosion towards the end of the year (and instead brought in a manager that steadied the ship), we wouldn't have brought in Ten Hag. That alone makes his tenure worth it (even though last year was as miserable as it gets for a utd fan).

 

[Isotope]

I mean there's no real discussion to be had, it's true. At least in the context of the short term which Ralf most certainly was and was only ever going to be. An Interim manager is brought into work with the current squad not to draw up plans to build a new one.

I don't know. If we hired Pep or Allardyce as interim, are we expecting them to change their football style? When Klopp didn't get his players on first season at Liverpool, he kept his style even though they went on slump to 8th in the League. Was he a bad manager to not be flexible with available squad?

I maybe give too much credit to United management. I think the appointment was with long term vision of having RR type of football as United's blueprint going forward. Just to see what can be done to reach it and that include assessing the squad and getting the right players to support that blueprint. RR's fault was he couldn't keep his mouth shut and basically said to the whole world that the squad was shit and the United management was all shit. You just can't do that as a (future) consultant.

 

[Shark]

No matter how we might want to denigrate Ole and remove any credit from him, I simply cannot see RR ever getting near Ole’s record in the two full seasons he had here.

Is there any point in isolating the last few months of Ole’s tenure and comparing RR’s shit fest to that period? If there is, it eludes me.

Part of me likes RR and I still think he might have had a lot to offer but not as coach.

It's not that anyone is removing credit from Ole but ultimately he achieved absolutely nothing here and was on the brink of being sacked enough times before pulling a win out of his arse. Length of time doesn't always mean better, the length that Ole was here was more damaging than RR's few months.

 

[RedPed]

Well at least that's one thing I can agree with Ronaldo on. It must have been a real eye opener seeing just how shit Wreck-It Ralf was up close and personal.

Ten Hag could see it a mile off and was having none of it.

 

[Leftback99]

The nightmare of Ralf still being brought up. Hoped we'd heard the last after finding out it cost us £20m for the disastrous 6 month spell.

 

[Lyng]

Well at least that's one thing I can agree with Ronaldo on. It must have been a real eye opener seeing just how shit Wreck-It Ralf was up close and personal.

Ten Hag could see it a mile off and was having none of it.

I think Ten Hag was shocked that Ralf's assessment of the squad was mostly correct.

 

[RedPed]

I think Ten Hag was shocked that Ralf's assessment of the squad was mostly correct.

I guarantee you ten Hag didn't even give Wreck-It's assessment the time of day.