Good point. I think we would have zero interest in signing him.With what you could do with that money instead of buying him I would think theres no chance we would buy him.
Good point. I think we would have zero interest in signing him.With what you could do with that money instead of buying him I would think theres no chance we would buy him.
Out of position? That´s not exactly an excuse, both Martial and Rashford are attackers capable of playing centrally or from the left. If they played from the right wing , could be used as an excuse but in a game like this, surely can´t be excused. Martial showed some good touches in the first 20minutes but was isolated. If it´s down to his unwillingness to be available Iĺl leave it up to you. Rashford timing his runs better could get us into good chances, also his decision making showed again to be sub par.We didn't really create any chances for them due to poor passing from midfield. Both were playing out of position too. Please note Liverpool front 3 did nout
I’m not sure they are top class on their day. Even when they score they rarely look masterful on the field. Outside of scoring when is the last time Rashford played well? When was the last time Martial played well? Forwards can be brilliant and contribute and not score. If those two don’t get on the score sheet they’re rarely not utterly irrelevant in their contributions on the pitch.If by problem you mean not consistently world-class, then yes they're a problem.
But they're fantastic forwards on their day, both of whom have the ability to change a game in an instant.
I do think we need an out-and-out number 9 to get the most from them. Whether or not Cavani can take that role, or Greenwood develop into it, is still to be seen.
I think we are at that stage of our rebuild where Martial and Rashford need to step up and be consistent otherwise they need to be upgraded rather than just have more competition.I said it last season Greenwood martial and Rashford at least need very serious competition at a club that wants to challenge for major honours. they can’t be left as the only viable option in their positions because we will get performances like that and then they start the next game and it breeds complacency and rewards poor performance. Rashford needs a long rest and martial needs to be dropped for a few weeks. We’ve tried playing them into form together for 6 months now and for the past few years theyve looked like they can get us top 4 but that’s it. If we want to kick on we need more
Ah ok so happens generally once a game and it festers in you for weeksOr it's just really obvious how shit they are at timing runs.
It's true that the thread has been derailed lately. I would like to add one little thing though because you posted the video with their achievements from last season. I know that many people hate stats and prefer to trust the "eye-test" but it is a fact that both Martial and Greenwood outperformed their xG considerably last season. Martial scored 17 goals with an xG of 11.74 while Mason scored 10 league goals with an xG of 3.58. If there's one thing that xG usually gets right is that particular "regressing to the mean" prediction or the "evening out" of a bad form. For example, when we were dropping points left, right and centre in the first half of last season, the xPts stats were "predicting" that things would eventually become better for us because our points total wasn't reflecting our efforts on the pitch.Probably my own fault for starting this thread but it’s turned into a bit of a trainwreck, full of unbearably bad takes.
FAO the goldfish memories. This isn’t career highlights. Or footage from years ago. This is all from one season. Last season. Just shows what they’re capable of when they hit some form.
I’m not sure why they’re both (actually all three, including Mason) struggling to replicate what we saw in this video but we’ll run away with the league if they manage it.
What those pictures don’t show is how well the Liverpool defence boxed him in and shepherded him to safety. It’s not like he ever had a clear opportunity to cut it back to Cavani, Fabinho was parallel blocking that angle at all times.Tweet
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Exactly, I'm more in praise of Fabhino's covering of Rashford than blaming Rashford for not passing. One thing I might say was that Rashford should not have continued to try and beat Fabinho but rather slowed down and look up to see a better option.What those pictures don’t show is how well the Liverpool defence boxed him in and shepherded him to safety. It’s not like he ever had a clear opportunity to cut it back to Cavani, Fabinho was parallel blocking that angle at all times.
Fixed.Replace Rashford with Haaland and we win the league at a canter.
Right but I think the reason he was out off doing that was because Henderson was boxing him in on his right side. If he stopped and turned in left Fabinho would have it, if he tried to cut back to his right Henderson was on his shoulder. In the heat of the moment he fancied his afterburners to create a bit of space ahead of them but with two hustling him he never quite managed to stretch his legs.Exactly, I'm more in praise of Fabhino's covering of Rashford than blaming Rashford for not passing. One thing I might say was that Rashford should not have continued to try and beat Fabinho but rather slowed down and look up to see a better option.
Yeah, I’ve watched the replay a few times. He did have a chance to play Cavani in early on but it wasn’t an easy pass and Fabinho would have had a chance to follow the ball and run down Cavani.What those pictures don’t show is how well the Liverpool defence boxed him in and shepherded him to safety. It’s not like he ever had a clear opportunity to cut it back to Cavani, Fabinho was parallel blocking that angle at all times.
Changing a correct statement to an incorrect statement doesn’t “fix” anything.Fixed.
i don’t think so. When you see Rashford running blindly, martial walking around and Bruno misplacing simple passes then you’re relying on your fullbacks to provide service which isn’t ideal. I think haaland would probably struggle in this team currently too. He’s a great player and something we need but I think we need actual wingers playing with himReplace Martial with Haaland and we win the league at a canter.
Fixed again. You're welcome.Changing an incorrect statement to a correct statement “fixes” anything.
Hang on, Martial has two league goals but is only expected to have 4 (rounded down) by almost the halfway point of the season?Thus far he's doing worse (2 goals with xG of 4.44),
‘Yes, this thread is a train wreck. I sometimes wonder, in this day and age, what it means to be a club supporter.Probably my own fault for starting this thread but it’s turned into a bit of a trainwreck, full of unbearably bad takes.
FAO the goldfish memories. This isn’t career highlights. Or footage from years ago. This is all from one season. Last season. Just shows what they’re capable of when they hit some form.
I’m not sure why they’re both (actually all three, including Mason) struggling to replicate what we saw in this video but we’ll run away with the league if they manage it.
If you look at his stats throughout his career with us, you'll see that this is the norm for him. In 15/16 he had 11/7.20xG, in 16/17: 4/3.28xG, in 17/18: 9/6.79xG, in 18/19: 10/7.56xG and we come to 19/20 where he scored 17 goals with an xG of 11.74. It can be explained in the sense that he is a player who likes to receive the ball to his feet in a team that prefers to pass the ball into space mostly. And, unlike Rash and Bruno, Martial likes to pick his moments. I know it wasn't the case under LvG but we used to struggle a lot under Louis in the chance creation category.Hang on, Martial has two league goals but is only expected to have 4 (rounded down) by almost the halfway point of the season?
So the problem lies in the team not creating enough goal-scoring chances for him. He has three league assists, but is that enough to compensate for the dearth of goals? We need to do something different because this isn't working for us or him.
Is it because our "outlet" ball is usually to Rashford? But Martial is as quick and skilful as Rashford, so why can't he also be an outlet? Is it because he wants the ball to feet? So many questions, which I think is what's frustrating fans. We should know how to get the best from Martial after five years here, and we should be seeing it. But if this is it, it's not working.
Such a shame given how good he looked towards end of last season. If fact he Greenwood and rashford were the one area of the team I felt we had no reason to worry about. Very strange how all 3 have fallen away so badly in a short time, though rashford has still hit a very good level just not often enoughChange the thread to Martial is a problem. Mid January and he's been awful all season.
Comparing Rashford, who started this season aged 22 with the strike-rate of former strikers who joined the club in their prime is incredibly unfair. Even Martial, who is 25 now, will have his averages dragged down by joining the club when much younger than Ruud, Berbatov, Yorke, Cole, RvP etcJust been looking at MUFCINFO.com at the comparative PL goal strike ratios of the current squad against their predecessors and from this it looks like
You can see the full data here
- Martial and Rashford with a rate of .31 and .33 respectively are OK but not top drawer against others who wore their jerseys. They sit in a cluster with Ole @ .34, Berba @ .38, Saha @ .34, Tevez @ .34, Hernandez @ .38
- Our most regular goal scorers are/were RvN @ .69, Rvp @ .55, Rooney @ .45, Bruno @.55, Lukaku @ .44. Eric @.44, Cole @ .44, Yorke @ .43, CR7 @ .4
- Greenwood is firing @ .27 after 74 games, which is better than Scholes @ .21, Welbeck @ .2 and Giggs @ .17
- For the benefit of any old timers reading this, Gordon Hill comes in @ .38!!
http://www.mufcinfo.com/manupag/com...mestic_competition/all_premiership_goals.html
The all competitions stats vary slightly but not enough to make a huge difference to their relative standings.
This says to me that Martial and Rashford are not world-class or even elite. RvN scored 150 goals in 219 games. Martial and Rashford have scored 157 in 487 games.
A couple of posters have said that what counts is getting the ball in the net and I follow this view. With approaching a combined decade of first team experience, I don't see Martial and Rashford making the jump to the top level in our record books but I'd love to be proved wrong (and the sooner the better).
You would need to calculate it per 90' to get a clearer picture and compare it to rest of the league. For sure there are other teams that create more chances but in our case it's Rashford, Cavani, Martial, and Greenwood so there is no one striker getting all the chances.Hang on, Martial has two league goals but is only expected to have 4 (rounded down) by almost the halfway point of the season?
So the problem lies in the team not creating enough goal-scoring chances for him. He has three league assists, but is that enough to compensate for the dearth of goals? We need to do something different because this isn't working for us or him.
Is it because our "outlet" ball is usually to Rashford? But Martial is as quick and skilful as Rashford, so why can't he also be an outlet? Is it because he wants the ball to feet? So many questions, which I think is what's frustrating fans. We should know how to get the best from Martial after five years here, and we should be seeing it. But if this is it, it's not working.
I'm not sure it's as simple as that. xG is a judgement of how likely each goal is to be scored taking account of range, angle, how the ball is received, etc. But it doesn't take account of who the player is.It is a fact that both Martial and Greenwood outperformed their xG considerably last season. Martial scored 17 goals with an xG of 11.74 while Mason scored 10 league goals with an xG of 3.58. If there's one thing that xG usually gets right is that particular "regressing to the mean" prediction or the "evening out" of a bad form.
I understand your point but it does help to shape thinking regarding recruitment and how long do you give players to become established? What we're seeing this season is regression. Maybe they will play themselves out of it, but do you believe that they will reach the .45 plus rates over their full careers?Comparing Rashford, who started this season aged 22 with the strike-rate of former strikers who joined the club in their prime is incredibly unfair. Even Martial, who is 25 now, will have his averages dragged down by joining the club when much younger than Ruud, Berbatov, Yorke, Cole, RvP etc
That s true alsoWhat those pictures don’t show is how well the Liverpool defence boxed him in and shepherded him to safety. It’s not like he ever had a clear opportunity to cut it back to Cavani, Fabinho was parallel blocking that angle at all times.
In recent times only Messi consistently outperforms his xG. Even Ronaldo has regressed to the mean in the last 4-5 years. Lewandowski rarely scores more than 3-4 goals than his xG suggests. Kane had a +9xG in 16/17 but his numbers are similar to Lewa's. This season he has 12 goals with 10.05xG. Even Mane and Salah have outperformed their xG significantly only once each in their Liverpool careers. In this sense, xG suggets that if you're not Messi, you are dependable on the chances your team creates for you and on the chances you can create by your skills. But you can't score worldies for consecutive seasons.I'm not sure it's as simple as that. xG is a judgement of how likely each goal is to be scored taking account of range, angle, how the ball is received, etc. But it doesn't take account of who the player is.
So you would expect a player who is a better finisher than the average (however you define that) to outperform their xG consistently. You would expect all players combined to approximately match xG.
Well Rooney is the only striker on that list who was at United for (almost ) his whole career so, as I said, it’s not a fair comparison. Similar to the way Ronaldo’s strikerate is lower than almost everyone on the list despite becoming the best striker of the lot.I understand your point but it does help to shape thinking regarding recruitment and how long do you give players to become established? What we're seeing this season is regression. Maybe they will play themselves out of it, but do you believe that they will reach the .45 plus rates over their full careers?
Just been looking at MUFCINFO.com at the comparative PL goal strike ratios of the current squad against their predecessors and from this it looks like
- Martial and Rashford with a rate of .31 and .33 respectively are OK but not top drawer against others who wore their jerseys. They sit in a cluster with Ole @ .34, Berba @ .38, Saha @ .34, Tevez @ .34, Hernandez @ .38
- Our most regular goal scorers are/were RvN @ .69, Rvp @ .55, Rooney @ .45, Bruno @.55, Lukaku @ .44. Eric @.44, Cole @ .44, Yorke @ .43, CR7 @ .4
- Greenwood is firing @ .27 after 74 games, which is better than Scholes @ .21, Welbeck @ .2 and Giggs @ .17
Wouldn't you have to strip out penalties to compare between those who did and didn't take them?<snip>
- An actually relevant comparison would be minutes per goal, which gives you this order including all the players you mentioned (except the two midfielders):
Maybe there’s a risk of paralysis by analysis? I equate consistency to reliability, so whichever way you look at it, a proven goal scorer keeps putting the ball in the net when chances present. In the case of penalties, these can be missed or scored, like any other chance. Responsoibility for taking them is a sign of reliability too.Wouldn't you have to strip out penalties to compare between those who did and didn't take them?
I'm finding this a useful discussion with good insights BTW, thanks guys.
God I hope so. Having someone in the same league as Harry Kane leading the line would be such a drastic improvement in our performances and hopefully, results.I wouldn’t be surprised if Ole tries to move Martial on and get a out and out striker.