Real Time With Bill Maher

[Zarlak]

Do you typically make assumptions about things or just on this subject?

What an informed comeback. Not dismissive or deflective in the slightest. Do you typically back out of having discussions and resort to petty attacks about the other person generally or just on this subject?

 

[DenisIrwin]

Do you typically make assumptions about things or just on this subject?

No.

 

[Carolina Red]

What an informed comeback. Not dismissive or deflective in the slightest. Do you typically back out of having discussions and resort to petty attacks about the other person generally or just on this subject?

It is "backing out" to point out the level of assumption and condescension present in this forum when people speak of folks who have a gun for self/home defense?

 

[Zarlak]

It is "backing out" to point out the level of assumption and condescension present in this forum when people speak of folks who have a gun for self/home defense?

How ironic, given the condescension in this post.

Do you typically make assumptions about things or just on this subject?

 

[Carolina Red]

How ironic, given the condescension in this post.

Are you denying making assumptions in this thread?

 

[Rado_N]

Jesus, she's written a book?

I hope to God nobody reads it.

 

[Zarlak]

Are you denying making assumptions in this thread?

That seems like a pretty silly question. We make assumptions about everything in every day life. You speak like this is a bad thing. It's perfectly normal, it's how we live our lives. Our assumptions are usually based on a mixture of common sense, informed opinion and evidence. You dressed yourself today based on an assumption on the weather, either by looking outside or checking the weather report. You set off for work at a specific time with an assumption of how long it will take and that you'll be on time or early based on past experience of traffic and distance. Owning a gun for some theoretical protection is not only assuming that one day someone will break into your house trying to murder you despite the statistics for this being absurdly small, but you then the gun owner makes the further assumption that the weapon will protect them. So really I'm not sure where you're going with your whole assumption thing as if it somehow is bad or makes my point invalid. Assumptions are perfectly fair things to make, and it would be stupid of you to argue otherwise.

On the subject at hand, are you denying that the basics of gun safety state that the gun should be safely stored and unloaded? Because if not, then are you going to argue that somebody breaking into your house with murderous intent will allow a 60 year old woman to walk to wherever her gun is safely stored, load it and protect herself? Because the assumption that you would be making when attempting to argue that that might happen, doesn't seem to be funded by common sense or any kind of evidence.

 

[Carolina Red]

@Zarlak
Why yes, we do assume everyday. The problem comes in when assumptions are made with the added ingredient of condescension, which many on this board have done in the discussion on firearm ownership. I am fully aware that I'm on a message board with people who have a radically different view of guns and of personal defense than I do, but I try to do my best to have respectful conversation on the topic, unless otherwise provoked.

That being said, in response to the issue of gun safety...
I can tell you that in no firearms safety or training class I have ever attended have we been instructed to keep a firearm for self or home defense "locked away and unloaded" unless other extenuating circumstances apply, and only then is it simply located in a safer place as an unloaded gun is a very inefficient club. To keep it unloaded is to defeat the purpose. There may be countries whose laws say a gun must be locked away unloaded, but that is a separate issue from actual gun safety.

A person owning guns for self defense who has extenuating circumstances could simply put a gun in a safe location in each room of the house, or have a small biometric safe (the much much more economic option here) that they can just carry with them room to room in order to alleviate the problem of having to ask the home invader to wait for them to retrieve their weapon.

Now, I believe the poor lady I mentioned killed near my parents was killed in her sleep, or at least was asleep when the intruder entered, as she was reported as being found in her bed. In that instance, her access to a gun was rendered moot by her lack of an alarm system. But, the point I was making with that anecdote was to say that the Colonel in the video was much like that woman... Old, never had that happen before, and then it did.

 

[Zarlak]

@Zarlak
Why yes, we do assume everyday. The problem comes in when assumptions are made with the added ingredient of condescension, which many on this board have done in the discussion on firearm ownership. I am fully aware that I'm on a message board with people who have a radically different view of guns and of personal defense than I do, but I try to do my best to have respectful conversation on the topic, unless otherwise provoked.

That being said, in response to the issue of gun safety...
I can tell you that in no firearms safety or training class I have ever attended have we been instructed to keep a firearm for self or home defense "locked away and unloaded" unless other extenuating circumstances apply, and only then is it simply located in a safer place as an unloaded gun is a very inefficient club. To keep it unloaded is to defeat the purpose. There may be countries whose laws say a gun must be locked away unloaded, but that is a separate issue from actual gun safety.

A person owning guns for self defense who has extenuating circumstances could simply put a gun in a safe location in each room of the house, or have a small biometric safe (the much much more economic option here) that they can just carry with them room to room in order to alleviate the problem of having to ask the home invader to wait for them to retrieve their weapon.

Now, I believe the poor lady I mentioned killed near my parents was killed in her sleep, or at least was asleep when the intruder entered, as she was reported as being found in her bed. In that instance, her access to a gun was rendered moot by her lack of an alarm system. But, the point I was making with that anecdote was to say that the Colonel in the video was much like that woman... Old, never had that happen before, and then it did.

Usually when someone makes a point that seems absurd and devoid of all logic, condescension whilst not required is usually employed in an attempt to make someone realise how absurd their argument sounds. It's unnecessary and slightly ugly, but it happens. It's pretty common.

With response to the unloaded part, http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx

The NRA themselves advise to ALWAYS keep a gun unloaded and to store it in a safe place. I haven't yet come across an 'unless you're using it for protection in your home, then these fundamental gun safety rules no longer apply' page but I could obviously be wrong on that I just haven't seen it yet. That's not meant to be condescending either, since reading it back it sounds it. That's genuine.

Whether the old woman was asleep or not is irrelevant. Let's talk hypothetical that she was awake. Are you still going to make the argument that somebody breaking in with intent to harm her would have allowed her to get to a safe location or biometric safe and open it, take out an unloaded gun, load it and defend herself? It's a fallacy. Unless she has it loaded and immediately available or the intruder for some reason gives her a large amount of time then the ability for this weapon to protect her reduces drastically.

 

[Carolina Red]

With response to the unloaded part, http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx

The NRA themselves advise to ALWAYS keep a gun unloaded and to store it in a safe place. I haven't yet come across an 'unless you're using it for protection in your home, then these fundamental gun safety rules no longer apply' page but I could obviously be wrong on that I just haven't seen it yet. That's not meant to be condescending either, since reading it back it sounds it. That's genuine.

Whether the old woman was asleep or not is irrelevant. Let's talk hypothetical that she was awake. Are you still going to make the argument that somebody breaking in with intent to harm her would have allowed her to get to a safe location or biometric safe and open it, take out an unloaded gun, load it and defend herself? It's a fallacy. Unless she has it loaded and immediately available or the intruder for some reason gives her a large amount of time then the ability for this weapon to protect her reduces drastically.

"ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use."

A gun kept for self defense is always considered "ready for use". Also, this section of the rules is for safe gun handling and the rule above applies to when you pick up a gun or are handed a gun that you do not know the condition of. In those instances, you should always treat it as if loaded and manually check to see if unloaded. If it is not, unless you are intending to use the gun, you are to unload it for safe handling.

Also, the 2nd half of the NRA recommendations deal with the storage of the gun and go along with what I've already said about the issue.

Store guns so they are not accessible to unauthorized persons.

• Many factors must be considered when deciding where and how to store guns. A person's particular situation will be a major part of the consideration. Dozens of gun storage devices, as well as locking devices that attach directly to the gun, are available. However, mechanical locking devices, like the mechanical safeties built into guns, can fail and should not be used as a substitute for safe gun handling and the observance of all gun safety rules.

 

[Zarlak]

A gun kept for self defense is always considered "ready for use". Also, this section of the rules is for safe gun handling and the rule above applies to when you pick up a gun or are handed a gun that you do not know the condition of. In those instances, you should always treat it as if loaded and manually check to see if unloaded. If it is not, unless you are intending to use the gun, you are to unload it for safe handling.

Also, the 2nd half of the NRA recommendations deal with the storage of the gun and go along with what I've already said about the issue.

The bold part sounds like that's your opinion or an interpretation, do you have a source to show it's recommended? I highly doubt it, considering that the absurdity of keeping a loaded gun somewhere that isn't locked away results in kids shooting themselves on a daily basis. Difficult to believe that responsible gun owners recommend this.

 

[Carolina Red]

The bold part sounds like that's your opinion or an interpretation, do you have a source to show it's recommended? I highly doubt it, considering that the absurdity of keeping a loaded gun somewhere that isn't locked away results in kids shooting themselves on a daily basis. Difficult to believe that responsible gun owners recommend this.

From the NRA's Personal Protection in the Home guidebook...
"a firearm that is being stored in a gun safe or lock box should generally be unloaded…unless it is a personal protection firearm that may need to be accessed quickly."

Also, you keep bringing up kids, which are an extenuating circumstance not faced by all gun owners.

 

[Zarlak]

From the NRA's Personal Protection in the Home guidebook...
"a firearm that is being stored in a gun safe or lock box should generally be unloaded…unless it is a personal protection firearm that may need to be accessed quickly."

Also, you keep bringing up kids, which are an extenuating circumstance not faced by all gun owners.

It's irrelevant whether it's faced by all gun owners or not. I don't know why you keep bringing that up. Gun safety laws are gun safety laws. Unfortunately it's a circumstance faced by a vast amount of gun owners, and is one of the prominent driving factors that leads a person to buy a gun in the first place and therefore it's relevant. What does the NRA personal protection in the home guidebook go on to say? Does it say to leave them loaded and easily in reach? Again, I doubt it because you can't make a recommendation like that incase the family has children.

 

[MrMarcello]

That woman in the Maher clip (Miller) lives in a bubble. She reminds me of many women in Georgia that try to take an interest in politics.

 

[Carolina Red]

It's irrelevant whether it's faced by all gun owners or not. I don't know why you keep bringing that up. Gun safety laws are gun safety laws. Unfortunately it's a circumstance faced by a vast amount of gun owners, and is one of the prominent driving factors that leads a person to buy a gun in the first place and therefore it's relevant. What does the NRA personal protection in the home guidebook go on to say? Does it say to leave them loaded and easily in reach? Again, I doubt it because you can't make a recommendation like that incase the family has children.

I bring it up because everyone's situation is different and can lead to different gun storage needs.

Again, the NRA recommends storage in a safe place, but as I have pointed out, that does not necessarily mean the gun is inaccessible should you need it. Again, you could (quite expensively) safely store loaded guns throughout the house, or you could (quite inexpensively) have a small biometric gun safe that is easily taken with you to different parts of the house.

 

[Zarlak]

I bring it up because everyone's situation is different and can lead to different gun storage needs.

Again, the NRA recommends storage in a safe place, but as I have pointed out, that does not necessarily mean the gun is inaccessible should you need it. Again, you could (quite expensively) safely store loaded guns throughout the house, or you could (quite inexpensively) have a small biometric gun safe that is easily taken with you to different parts of the house.

I'm not seeing how this serves your point rather than mine. A gun kept in a biometric gun safe is by definition, not readily available. The time/effort required to make it accessible is not debatable. This then moves to the argument of whether you have the time to retrieve the weapon and protect yourself when somebody breaks into your house with the intent to cause you harm. The fact that it isn't on your person and is somewhere else means that the odds of this happening diminish rapidly. Do you carry your biometric safe with you from room to room every time you move? What if you're upstairs and it's downstairs. What if you use the toilet at the time. What if you're cleaning the bathroom. What if you're in the garden. What if you're cooking in the kitchen. I fail to see how this isn't clear. Is the solution to have 10 guns? 1 in every room of the house? There are too many variables that mean it's not likely to protect you, and very few that mean it is.

 

[Carolina Red]

I'm not seeing how this serves your point rather than mine. A gun kept in a biometric gun safe is by definition, not readily available. The time/effort required to make it accessible is not debatable. This then moves to the argument of whether you have the time to retrieve the weapon and protect yourself when somebody breaks into your house with the intent to cause you harm. The fact that it isn't on your person and is somewhere else means that the odds of this happening diminish rapidly. Do you carry your biometric safe with you from room to room every time you move? What if you're upstairs and it's downstairs. What if you use the toilet at the time. What if you're cleaning the bathroom. What if you're in the garden. What if you're cooking in the kitchen. I fail to see how this isn't clear. Is the solution to have 10 guns? 1 in every house? There are too many variables that mean it's not likely to protect you, and very few that mean it is.

1) Have you ever used a biometric safe?

2) I have pointed out the other solution of having a gun in each room.

3) I have pointed out the solution of carrying the biometric with you.

4) I have not mentioned carrying the gun on your person, as not every gun owner has a carry permit, and therefore would likely not have the carry pistol, belt, holster, etc.

 

[Zarlak]

Have you ever used a biometric safe?

Yes. How is that relevant?

 

[Carolina Red]

Yes. How is that relevant?

Well, you act as if it takes more than 1 or 2 seconds to open and retrieve the gun.

 

[DenisIrwin]

I'm not seeing how this serves your point rather than mine. A gun kept in a biometric gun safe is by definition, not readily available. The time/effort required to make it accessible is not debatable. This then moves to the argument of whether you have the time to retrieve the weapon and protect yourself when somebody breaks into your house with the intent to cause you harm. The fact that it isn't on your person and is somewhere else means that the odds of this happening diminish rapidly. Do you carry your biometric safe with you from room to room every time you move? What if you're upstairs and it's downstairs. What if you use the toilet at the time. What if you're cleaning the bathroom. What if you're in the garden. What if you're cooking in the kitchen. I fail to see how this isn't clear. Is the solution to have 10 guns? 1 in every room of the house? There are too many variables that mean it's not likely to protect you, and very few that mean it is.

Pulp Fiction, Bruce Willis and John Travolta spring to mind. No biometric safe there. Didn't turn out to be very effective protection either, as he was executed with his own weapon. And yes, I know it was just a movie.

 

[Zarlak]

Well, you act as if it takes more than 1 or 2 seconds to open and retrieve the gun.

You act as though you're stood next to the safe when this person comes into your house. The only time it's readily available is if it's on your person. If it isn't on your person then there are 101 different lengths of time that it could take you to get to it. You can pick and choose your favourite to make it seem like an insignificant time but you cannot deny that it is not readily available and therefore the chances of it protecting you diminish.

 

[Silva]

The only thing that needs to me mentioned in a gun debate is that you're more likely to be killed if you own a gun. That makes any personal protection argument invalid.

 

[Carolina Red]

You act as though you're stood next to the safe when this person comes into your house. The only time it's readily available is if it's on your person. If it isn't on your person then there are 101 different lengths of time that it could take you to get to it. You can pick and choose your favourite to make it seem like an insignificant time but you cannot deny that it is not readily available and therefore the chances of it protecting you diminish.

I've already said you can simply pick the biometric up and take it to the next room with you...

And yes, you could carry on your person. I have a permit to do just that.

 

[Zarlak]

I've already said you can simply pick the biometric up and take it to the next room with you...

And yes, you could carry on your person. I have a permit to do just that.

Yes, because every time you go from the living room to the kitchen you take your biometric safe with you just incase someone at that moment breaks into your house. Every time you go to the toilet you think 'wait, better get my gun safe just incase someone breaks in to murder me while I'm taking a shit.' You're being ridiculous. You're trying to avoid admitting something that proves my point, which is that at any point in the day you can for any number of natural reasons very easily be some distance away from your biometric safe and thus your chances of protecting yourself diminish. It's very clear that you're avoiding admitting that so there's no real use in continuing this.

 

[DenisIrwin]

Pulp Fiction, Bruce Willis and John Travolta spring to mind. No biometric safe there. Didn't turn out to be very effective protection either, as he was executed with his own weapon. And yes, I know it was just a movie.

Sorry for replying to my own post but I liked that movie. This is perhaps relevant to the gun control thing. Or not.

 

[Carolina Red]

Yes, because every time you go from the living room to the kitchen you take your biometric safe with you just incase someone at that moment breaks into your house. Every time you go to the toilet you think 'wait, better get my gun safe just incase someone breaks in to murder me while I'm taking a shit.' You're being ridiculous. You're trying to avoid admitting something that proves my point, which is that at any point in the day you can for any number of natural reasons very easily be some distance away from your biometric safe and thus your chances of protecting yourself diminish. It's very clear that you're avoiding admitting that so there's no real use in continuing this.

I'm "being ridiculous", yet you are ignoring the other viable solutions I have offered to the problem and are just focusing on carrying a small safe around with you.

Okay!

For the record, I grew up in a house that took option 2... Gun in each room.

 

[kps88]

I've already said you can simply pick the biometric up and take it to the next room with you...

No one would do this unless they actively have an assassin out to get them and are, at the same time, a stickler for the rules.

 

[Zarlak]

I'm "being ridiculous", yet you are ignoring the other viable solutions I have offered to the problem and are just focusing on carrying a small safe around with you.

Okay!

For the record, I grew up in a house that took option 2... Gun in each room.

Yes you are. You refuse to accept that there are plenty of factors that reduce the likelihood of a gun protecting you. It's clear to see. Every time you just shy away from answering it or ignore it completely.

 

[Carolina Red]

No one would do this unless they actively have an assassin out to get them and are, at the same time, a stickler for the rules.

Well, that's why there are other options for those who don't want to do that.

Yes you are. You refuse to accept that there are plenty of factors that reduce the likelihood of a gun protecting you. It's clear to see. Every time you just shy away from answering it or ignore it completely.

No, I completely understand those factors, as I actually do own guns and have them as part of my home defense plan... I have simply offered up other options that people like me have to choose from to help mitigate those factors. Why you have ignored those other options and blamed me for it is beyond me, though.

 

[Zarlak]

Well, that's why there are other options for those who don't want to do that.

No, I completely understand those factors, as I actually do own guns and have them as part of my home defense plan... I have simply offered up other options that people like me have to choose from to help mitigate those factors. Why you have ignored those other options and blamed me for it is beyond me, though.

You've offered up two options, one which is to have a gun in every room of the house which seems ridiculous on multiple levels from more guns being the answer to no problem, to the financial cost of this not being viable to your every day person (your personal circumstances are irrelevant as they are not the norm and laws must be made to serve the masses) to increased risk of children coming into contact with them and whatever steps you take to minimise these risks simply increase the amount of time taken to arm yourself anyway which diminishes the chance of them helping, to statistics showing that you're more likely to shoot yourself with it or your children are more likely to shoot themselves. The other option was to carry a safe with you from room to room which doesn't really need explaining why that's ridiculous.

 

[Carolina Red]

You've offered up two options, one which is to have a gun in every room of the house which seems ridiculous on multiple levels from more guns being the answer to no problem, to the financial cost of this not being viable to your every day person (your personal circumstances are irrelevant as they are not the norm and laws must be made to serve the masses) to increased risk of children coming into contact with them and whatever steps you take to minimise these risks simply increase the amount of time taken to arm yourself anyway which diminishes the chance of them helping, to statistics showing that you're more likely to shoot yourself with it or your children are more likely to shoot themselves. The other option was to carry a safe with you from room to room which doesn't really need explaining why that's ridiculous.

Might I remind you that this whole hypothetical was your invention? I'm simply responding to your questions and offering solutions to problems you have presented... and I've never said that having a gun or guns is a 100% way to guarantee you won't die in a home invasion. Guns are just 1 part of the equation for many people... Like door locks and alarm systems.

Once again, I understand that there are people like you on here whose views of gun ownership are radically different than mine. I'm okay with that. I am simply presenting the other side of the coin.

 

[Zarlak]

Might I remind you that this whole hypothetical was your invention? I'm simply responding to your questions and offering solutions to problems you have presented... and I've never said that having a gun or guns is a 100% way to guarantee you won't die in a home invasion. Guns are just 1 part of the equation for many people... Like door locks and alarm systems.

Once again, I understand that there are people like you on here whose views of gun ownership are radically different than mine. I'm okay with that. I am simply presenting the other side of the coin.

This isn't a hypothetical invention, it's an every day reality. It's the reason the debate is being had in the first place.

 

[Carolina Red]

This isn't a hypothetical invention, it's an every day reality. It's the reason the debate is being had in the first place.

Let's talk hypothetical that she was awake.

 

[Zarlak]

.

Ah you're going back to the specific example. I had moved beyond that and was showing how individual circumstances are largely irrelevant, the 60 year old women was one example of many. If you like we can move to another person and show how the points of contention would be exactly the same. This is an every day reality for millions of families and that needs to be taken into account when discussing gun laws.

 

[Carolina Red]

Ah you're going back to the specific example. I had moved beyond that and was showing how individual circumstances are largely irrelevant, the 60 year old women was one example of many. If you like we can move to another person and show how the points of contention would be exactly the same. This is an every day reality for millions of families and that needs to be taken into account when discussing gun laws.

My family is one of those families. When I speak on this it isn't in the abstract. That is why I post my thoughts on the subject, since so many people on this forum are speaking in the abstract about the issue.

 

[Zarlak]

My family is one of those families. When I speak on this it isn't in the abstract. That is why I post my thoughts on the subject, since so many people on this forum are speaking in the abstract about the issue.

But individual accounts are largely irrelevant. Individual accounts lead to anecdotal evidence, personal opinion and bias. Which is why decisions and laws take into account the masses, including the average Joe. You can use the 60 year old woman as an example, and I did as you brought her up but looking at all the evidence for gun use as a whole is what prompts the debate.

 

[Carolina Red]

But individual accounts are largely irrelevant. Individual accounts lead to anecdotal evidence, personal opinion and bias. Which is why decisions and laws take into account the masses, including the average Joe. You can use the 60 year old woman as an example, and I did as you brought her up but looking at all the evidence for gun use as a whole is what prompts the debate.

I'm aware of that, but what we have been debating over the last couple pages is the individual's choice of how to keep and store their guns. There are rules that are suggested by groups like the NRA, but it is perfectly legal to have a loaded gun sitting out in the open on the table next to you. Now, in other countries that is not the case, but in this one it currently is... So again, any choice of how to keep and/or store a gun is personal choice.

 

[Zarlak]

I'm aware of that, but what we have been debating over the last couple pages is the individual's choice of how to keep and store their guns. There are rules that are suggested by groups like the NRA, but it is perfectly legal to have a loaded gun sitting out in the open on the table next to you. Now, in other countries that is not the case, but in this one it currently is... So again, any choice of how to keep and/or store a gun is personal choice.

It would make you an unresponsible gun owner. It may be legal to keep your gun unloaded on the table, but the main thing you hear from people opposed to gun control is that they're responsible gun owners with their guns locked away. If people admitted to keeping a loaded gun next to them on the table then it would be easier to argue - because they'd be fecking idiots, especially if they have children. But it's the ones who argue that their guns are kept X, Y and Z who then argue until they're blue in the face that it still somehow protects them.

 

[Carolina Red]

It would make you an unresponsible gun owner. It may be legal to keep your gun unloaded on the table, but the main thing you hear from people opposed to gun control is that they're responsible gun owners with their guns locked away. If people admitted to keeping a loaded gun next to them on the table then it would be easier to argue - because they'd be fecking idiots, especially if they have children. But it's the ones who argue that their guns are kept X, Y and Z who then argue until they're blue in the face that it still somehow protects them.

Your personal opinion may be that they are irresponsible, or idiots... They could just as easily argue that the gun is inanimate and isn't going to start shooting if not locked away and that it is idiotic to have a gun that is part of your home defense plan in a place where you can't get to it.

Again, this gets into a personal choice issue as they are not doing anything illegal.

 

[Zarlak]

Your personal opinion may be that they are irresponsible, or idiots... They could just as easily argue that the gun is inanimate and isn't going to start shooting if not locked away.

Again, this gets into a personal choice issue as they are not doing anything illegal.

I didn't say they were doing anything illegal and nobody would begin to argue that the gun is sentient and is going to start shooting if not locked away. Anyone who started trying to argue that would be an idiot carrying out a completely pointless exercise. Using an argument that nobody even tried to say as a way of avoiding the actual discussion which is that it increases the risk massively of accidents occurring either with themselves or with their children. Now if people say 'hey that's fine, I accept that doing this means it's more likely I will have an accident or my child will shoot himself in the face' then fair enough. They're dickheads, whatever like you said it's not illegal to just keep a loaded gun on the table. But what actually happens is that they come back with 'but my guns are locked away and stored safely because I'm a responsible gun owner'. Which renders your point about leaving them on the table moot, because nobody admits to doing that. The discussion is usually centred around a gun being locked away not being able to protect you unless you have it on you. Which carries a huge risk with it. Which most people don't admit to being okay with.