Realistically if we want to win the CL anytime soon..

[Brightonian]

For me it's just tactics. Look at Southampton under Pochettino. Employing Dortmund like tactics and even with average players relative to ours, vastly improving their ability to compete against 'better' teams. Employing the right tactics enables you to gain control and dictate the tempo of a game. Our tactics just don't place enough emphasis upon pressuring opponents to expect to gain that control. We tend to relinquish control of the midfield and then try and win the ball back in our own half and counter from deep.

Bayern & Dortmund have been able to engineer such impressive and dominant performances because they intimidate and pressure opponents high up the pitch with their intensive team pressing. It not only restricts an opponents ability to create for themselves, but also forces mistakes in dangerous areas which provides plenty of opportunities to create good chances.

We don't seem to have any noticeable team strategy for disrupting our opponents ability to play their game at a tempo of their choosing. We see good players with time and space to look around and pick passes under very little pressure until they get to our final third. Personally i don't see how even buying 2 new midfielders and playing the same way, will provide us with any better control in these big games against the top teams.

It's hard to argue with this. We don't have to change our attacking game, but I think it's fair to say the 'backing off' mode of defence just isn't up to scratch any more. All the best teams - and all the average teams who play brilliantly anyway - use a high-pressing defensive game.

That said, given the very high probability that we will not be changing our game under Ferguson, we should still be looking for that Wilshere, Thiago or Gundogan. We can try and make up for the strategic shortcomings by just having an embarrassment of good players.

 

[beergod]

It's hard to argue with this. We don't have to change our attacking game, but I think it's fair to say the 'backing off' mode of defence just isn't up to scratch any more. All the best teams - and all the average teams who play brilliantly anyway - canuse a high-pressing defensive game.

Most teams selectively press but drop off during others. Currently, we do not although it like we were doing it at the beginning of last season with the Anderson/Cleverley pairing. Bayern pressed from goal kicks and then dropped off once Barca had broken out and then retreated. We could do this easily without greatly altering our current tactics, but I'm not sure we have the fitness levels in midfield to do it. Carrick plays too many matches and the younger players don't seem to be able to consistently finish 90 minutes in our current defensive setup.

Sometimes I wonder if our tendency to sit back makes us very susceptible to pressing sides since we often win the ball deep in our own half.

 

[KingMinger22]

We will only have a very outside chance of winning the CL under Fergie again unless we make a string of very ambitious signings. We have a good team, but there are 3-4 teams that have significantly more quality than us and even for them winning the CL in any given season is unlikely.

 

[KingMinger22]

Bale and Wilshere would be epic

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Our team peaked in it's cycle at the same time Barcelona did. It that regard, we're very unlucky. I don't see us peaking like that in Europe under Ferguson again, unfortunately.

 

[Ronaldo's Mum Eh?]

Literally break the bank for Gundogan.

Pay dortmund whatever they want.

Up to 40M. Just get it done.

Not a solution, he's good but not that good and Dortmund can't sell.

He is that good.

And he steps it up in every big game. He's going to keep getting better. I saw the match day thread and a lot of posters were saying we needed Martinez. I have a feeling we will be saying the same thing about Gundogan when Madrid snap him up.

See what I've been saying? Gundogan is WORTH every penny if we spend 40 million on him. We saw tonight just how good he is. He ran the show against Madrid.

The point is, we can't expect to winning the CL by 'getting by'. The level at the top is extremely high and demanding. Bayern felt they needed something different in midfield last summer, so they went and signed Javi Martinez for 40m euro. Problem solved. Us, aside from Cleverley and Carrick, it's all sort of compromises like Giggs and Jones. It won't be enough in Europe.

Just like Fergie pushed the boat in 1998 by getting Yorke, Stam and Blomqvist, and then with the four signings of 2007 (though long term they didn't work out as well, first season they all did a good job), it's what we need to do now if we want to return to the top in Europe.

Nail. On. The. Head.

Dude, this is not FM, even in FM the player won't even negotiate with you citing he's not interested in joining your club.

Seriously

He will be interested in joining Manchester United. We are arguably the biggest club in the world. We can give him a competitive salary and he's guaranteed a chance to win all the major titles.

Of course he would be interested. Suggesting otherwise is non-sense. You're belittling our club.

 

[Leg-End]

We won the title, kick the feck on from it and hope SAF and his team have identified their own weaknesses internally and sort them in the summer. This team right now feels functional but not exceptional, give it a couple of quality signings and it goes to a new level.

Glaring weakness to even the most blinkered fan is central midfield, rectify that and let the moaners (including me) find a new area of the United team to constantly nag about.

 

[bbest]

Why United can't find the midfield dynamo it badly wants?

 

[Ronaldo's Mum Eh?]

Exactly like that. They did eat them for breakfast but then they got full.

Look at their record this season. Their attacking game has been devastating. They've conceded three goals away in the league. They beat Barcelona 4-0 (when did that last happen).

The only criticism is that they've taken a few games this season for granted. With so little left of the season I've a hard time seeing them do so again.

This thread is about our midfield. Well, Bayern demolished the team with the best midfield in the world. Toni Kroos wasn't even in the squad. Götze is being added to that list for the next season and they had Gustavo to spare.
Meanwhile we're pinning our hopes to a 32 year old, a home grown that might become good and Giggs whilst using Rooney and Jones as backups (two players that shouldn't be close in the pecking order in that position).

It's "this thread" again because it's such an obvious hole in our otherwise excellent team. It's like that nerd that got all A's in school but failed PE.

Agree with everything you said.


We're seriously hoping Carrick carries us across the line. That's pathetic. The guy's 32 and the other top European teams have better midfielders.

 

[Cevno]

I don't get this moaning about our tactics. Except last season we have probably been the best tactically amongst all teams in Europe for the last 5/6 seasons. Even this season we outdid Mourinho tactically.

Bale and a good CM would make us a match for anybody, imo.

Not according to some on here, apparently.

 

[INF-AMOS]

We should sign Gareth Bale. Strong, super quick with an eye for goal. Players like Bale and Jones will help us match the likes of Bayern physically. Bale plus a dominant central midfielder and we'll be able to take on anyone without too much worry.

This really!

 

[Balu]

I don't get this moaning about our tactics. Except last season we have probably been the best tactically amongst all teams in Europe for the last 5/6 seasons. Even this season we outdid Mourinho tactically.



Not according to some on here, apparently.

Well who didn't besides Mancini? All Mourinho did at Real was finding a way to exploit Barca's weaknesses and hope the individual brilliance of his team helps win games against everyone else. On a tactical level Mourinho's time at Real is really disappointing in my opinion. He had so much attacking potential available at Real but besides being ruthless at counterattacking the team looks clueless and boring.

 

[Godfather]

Bale and Wilshere would be epic

That would be great, throw Thiago in the mix and it would be perfect

 

[NoLogo]

This really!

Bale + Vidal would really be awesome and push us to the next level.

Next season than go for Reus and Gündogan and we will have one of the if not the best squad in Europe.

But of course we aren't the only ones interested in these players.

The question though is do we have the will to splash out 60m and a contract of 200k+ p/w for a player like Bale, like Real Madrid probably would, or do we consider it too much of a financial risk?

 

[devilish]

Bale and Wilshere would be epic

That would probably cost around the 70-100 m mark

 

[Ramshock]

Bayern manage to find/produce these players I cannot see why we don't do the same.

 

[Godfather]

Vidal, Gündogan, Wilshere....Anyone of those 3 would be perfect for our midfield.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Wanyama has stated his intent to remain back. If Dortmund win the CL, we can say goodbye to Lewandowski & Gündogan.

That would probably cost around the 70-100 m mark

Not if you are willing to trade in Nani & Anderson for them! On the subject of trading, a rumour is that Real are interested in Chicharito and leading to a possibility of makeweight deal for CR7.

A bit o controversy is always good, huh?

 

[Ramshock]

Wanyama wont stay at Celtic, if theres a big bid for him he will be gonzo.

 

[Bilbo]

I remember posting - the morning after the Madrid defeat - that the worst thing about it was that, in time, people would forget about the reason we were eliminated.

I keep reading now that we've had a disappointing European season. I don't agree. Without that ridiculous decision we would almost certainly have been in the midst of a semi-final with Dortmund now, with every chance to go on and win it.

Yes - we need a midfielder. I don't agree that we cannot compete in Europe without one though. Its a lazy opinion, and everyone should remember how many of our supporters were claiming that we would be outplayed against Madrid.

 

[Ronnie O'Sullivan]

Strootman
Modric
Wanyama
Matic
Gundogan
Vidal
Cabaye
Erikson

or Lampard for free

Now we can debate the "realistic" part cause clearly in every transfer window the sure to stay and sure to leave has lots of movement, but seriously this list is with 5 seconds of thought. Seriously if our scouting department has a brain there are probably 10 other potential names.

Modric - Not even good enough for Real, over-rated in my opinion
Wanyama - What's all the fuss about this guy?
Matic - Young player, not too sure about his abilities
Gundogan - Good prospect, but going to cost at least £30m
Vidal - Not bad but not world class
Cabaye - No
Erikson - Decent player, haven't seen anything world class yet though
Lampard - What??

 

[Adebesi]

I remember posting - the morning after the Madrid defeat - that the worst thing about it was that, in time, people would forget about the reason we were eliminated.

I keep reading now that we've had a disappointing European season. I don't agree. Without that ridiculous decision we would almost certainly have been in the midst of a semi-final with Dortmund now, with every chance to go on and win it.

Yes - we need a midfielder. I don't agree that we cannot compete in Europe without one though. Its a lazy opinion, and everyone should remember how many of our supporters were claiming that we would be outplayed against Madrid.

Yes but with our midfield being what it is we are forced to set up quite negatively when we meet teams of the highest quality. The Madrid game was an example of that, a better one is the City game in the run in last year, the one where we looked really good for the first 9 or 10 minutes and from then on it was like a rearguard action. We can do that, but it just seems so unnecessary. If we had better control of the midfield we could impose ourselves a bit more against the best teams and play without an inferiority complex.

 

[Revan]

Modric - Not even good enough for Real, over-rated in my opinion
Wanyama - What's all the fuss about this guy?
Matic - Young player, not too sure about his abilities
Gundogan - Good prospect, but going to cost at least £30m
Vidal - Not bad but not world class
Cabaye - No
Erikson - Decent player, haven't seen anything world class yet though
Lampard - What??

Modric - Better than all our midfielders except Carrick where there is not much to choose between them. Completely different player though. We were better than Madrid, but that wasn't because our midfield at all, at the contrary Madrid easily dominated in that part. It is good seeing us being better than Madrid, but you can't deny that we had to set team with very negative tactics in order to do that.

Wanyama - I really don't know about this. He looks to be a very strong player, but I don't know if he has the other abilities required.

Matic - Agree with you

Vidal - Good be excellent for us. I think that he is better than Demebele, a player that should probably be in PL team of the year.

Gundogan - Probably the best under 23 midfielder in the world at the moment. 30m in today's market wouldn't be that much for him. His young age means that he could play more than 10 years here. If we were willing to spend 31m in a striker we didn't need some years ago, or we were willing to spend more than 15m in Zaha, a young winger from championship, I can't see why we are not going to spent that amount of money for a great young midfielder who will improve us a lot.

Cabaye - Could be a good squad player, and in next season very likely would start before Cleverley. We should aim higher though.

Eriksen - An attacking midfielder that we don't need.

Lampard - Would love to happen if we were in 2005.

Of course there are the others like Bender twins, Moutinho who could be excellent signings and then other players like Strootman, Banega, Herrera or Sahin who could actually work and become better players at United.

One thing is sure, there is a lot of quality midfielders right there.

 

[Comsmit]

Moutinho & Song would be two players who would significantly improve central midfield.....and not cost an absolute fecking fortune like Ilkay Gundogan or Jack Wilshere.

Moutinho was Portugal's outstanding player at Euro 2012, no mean feat. Song had a superb season in 2011-2012 prompting Barcelona to snaffle him up and hardly use him, he must be desperate for football and is Premier League proven. Both are all-round midfielders who could play with, and crucially according to many, be an alternative to Carrick.

Signing both might even leave enough in the bank to pursue another attacking midfielder/playmaker such as Rodriguez or Isco, especially if as expected there is a slight exodus i.e. Nani, Anderson

 

[adexkola]

Yes but with our midfield being what it is we are forced to set up quite negatively when we meet teams of the highest quality. The Madrid game was an example of that, a better one is the City game in the run in last year, the one where we looked really good for the first 9 or 10 minutes and from then on it was like a rearguard action. We can do that, but it just seems so unnecessary. If we had better control of the midfield we could impose ourselves a bit more against the best teams and play without an inferiority complex.

Nothing wrong with playing cautiously. It's the smart way to play, cover your weaknesses and target the opponent's weak points. It's how we dominated in Europe back in 2006-09.

 

[Ash_G]

For me it's just tactics. Look at Southampton under Pochettino. Employing Dortmund like tactics and even with average players relative to ours, vastly improving their ability to compete against 'better' teams. Employing the right tactics enables you to gain control and dictate the tempo of a game. Our tactics just don't place enough emphasis upon pressuring opponents to expect to gain that control. We tend to relinquish control of the midfield and then try and win the ball back in our own half and counter from deep.

Bayern & Dortmund have been able to engineer such impressive and dominant performances because they intimidate and pressure opponents high up the pitch with their intensive team pressing. It not only restricts an opponents ability to create for themselves, but also forces mistakes in dangerous areas which provides plenty of opportunities to create good chances.

We don't seem to have any noticeable team strategy for disrupting our opponents ability to play their game at a tempo of their choosing. We see good players with time and space to look around and pick passes under very little pressure until they get to our final third. Personally i don't see how even buying 2 new midfielders and playing the same way, will provide us with any better control in these big games against the top teams.

I agree somewhat it is tactics, sometimes it feels that we go for playing good players as opposed to a balanced team.

But I think we do have a general defensive plan but we just lack the players to execute it. We're not like a Bayern or Dortmund who will press high, thats a style that works for them but it's not the only style that can work. You can also get tight around your box and then force the opposition to play it wide and either isolate them there, or win the aerially ball. That tactic worked very well for us a few years back.

But in recent times, particularly with the loss of Fletcher we've lacked another midfielder who can help give the screen with Carrick. You need two players taking up the right positions for that approach but we don't have that. That means we can be got at more centrally.

Additionally sometimes I don't think we adapt enough when coming across a team that will press well. We let our players get too far apart and so there isn't enough short passes on for the midfielders. I've said it before but you can see a noticeable difference between us being affected by pressure when in the diamond or our standard formation. The likes of Carrick haven't suddenly become better at dealing with it, they simply have actual options. Or if you look at the first game against City, before we dropped off a little we had carrick, clev and Rooney as quite a close trio and it let us deal with the pressure really well. In the second game Rooney noticeably played closer to RVP and we couldn't deal with it as well.

That's why I think a proper midfielder would help. Then we could play this way much more efficiently, we don't need a whole change in approach, except for maybe in the bigger games recognizing that whoever plays in the hole, be it Rooney or Kagawa, needs to ensure they help the midfield more.

 

[Adebesi]

Nothing wrong with playing cautiously. It's the smart way to play, cover your weaknesses and target the opponent's weak points. It's how we dominated in Europe back in 2006-09.

That's why I prefer the City example. Nothing wrong with how we played against Madrid. A lot wrong with how we played against City imo. Tho it was down to deficiencies in personnel. We didn't have the midfield to cope, in the end it wasn't as bad as it might have been. With a better midfield we could still be cautious, without being inferior.

 

[Bilbo]

That's why I prefer the City example. Nothing wrong with how we played against Madrid. A lot wrong with how we played against City imo. Tho it was down to deficiencies in personnel. We didn't have the midfield to cope, in the end it wasn't as bad as it might have been. With a better midfield we could still be cautious, without being inferior.

We would have to abandon our 2 winger policy in order to be able to stand toe to toe with these sides in midfield, regardless of who we might be able to sign IMO.

I'd like to see us experiment more with a forward diamond. Carrick & Cleverley in midfield with Kagawa in front of them, and a front 3 of RVP, Rooney & Welbeck.

 

[Rozay]

I've been burned by Hargreaves.

Use protection next time.

 

[Ash_G]

We would have to abandon our 2 winger policy in order to be able to stand toe to toe with these sides in midfield, regardless of who we might be able to sign IMO.

I'd like to see us experiment more with a forward diamond. Carrick & Cleverley in midfield with Kagawa in front of them, and a front 3 of RVP, Rooney & Welbeck.

Why? Bayern played with Ribery and Robben, Real play with Ronaldo and Di Maria, if the quality and balance is there in the middle then you can play with wingers. When in form Nani and Valencia are top wingers and give you much more than Cleverley does.

 

[Cina]

Why? Bayern played with Ribery and Robben, Real play with Ronaldo and Di Maria, if the quality and balance is there in the middle then you can play with wingers. When in form Nani and Valencia are top wingers and give you much more than Cleverley does.

Yeah. It seems loads of people now want us to abandon using wingers because they've been so ineffective this season, but there's no way SAF will let that happen again next season.

We've sort of went from either being completely over reliant on them (2010-12) to not being in any way reliant on them (12/13). We need to find the right balance, not get rid of them entirely.

 

[Ash_G]

Yeah. It seems loads of people now want us to abandon using wingers because they've been so ineffective this season, but there's no way SAF will let that happen again next season.

We've sort of went from either being completely over reliant on them (2010-12) to not being in any way reliant on them (12/13). We need to find the right balance, not get rid of them entirely.

I think ever since the emergence of Barca its been the case that some think that wingers are an ineffective tactic when in reality if you have the right balance then they're a great weapon and ideal for combating these sorts of teams as we've shown against Arsenal time after time regardless of their strength. Barca having one of the greatest players of all time, and two of the finest midfielders of modern times, has helped skew things.

Like I said above I think it's two things that would really help us. A midfielder who can slot in next to Carrick with a proper understanding of the role required and just pushing whoever is playing RVP a little deeper. The rest of it, like the performance of the wingers is a form issue rather than a lack of quality.

 

[apotheosis]

It's hard to argue with this. We don't have to change our attacking game, but I think it's fair to say the 'backing off' mode of defence just isn't up to scratch any more. All the best teams - and all the average teams who play brilliantly anyway - use a high-pressing defensive game.

That said, given the very high probability that we will not be changing our game under Ferguson, we should still be looking for that Wilshere, Thiago or Gundogan. We can try and make up for the strategic shortcomings by just having an embarrassment of good players.

Didn't work very well for madrid......!

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Didn't work very well for madrid......!

It hardly ever does. But our problem isn't "strategical shortcomings". Bayern Munich defeated Barcelona the other night playing a kind of football which is not far removed from what we have been up to ourselves. They beat them comprehensively while conceding possession to an extent which would make a believer in the "Spanish" model weep blood. We did something similar against Real at Old Trafford - we let them piss around impotently with the ball, mounting dangerous attacks ourselves whenever we truly went for it.

You don't need a midfield which specializes in constant pressing and ball retention in order to be successful. You don't have to "dominate" the middle of the park in order to win - and win comprehensibly - a game of football. The incredible quality of Barcelona in recent years have blinded many. Their brand of pressing/possession becomes a mere exercise in fruitless passing once the edge that comes with exceptional individual quality is gone: When their key players are off the boil (which they have been on several important occasions over the past couple of seasons) they look horribly impotent and lost for ideas when they meet top notch opposition (either defensively or offensively).

It's a model which is practically unbeatable when all the cogs turn smoothly - but when they don't...well, you get what we had here last...and so forth.

If Barcelona play a perfect game at home against Bayern they are capable of winning 5-0 and progress to the final. That's how devastating the machine can be when the cogs' names are Messi, Xavi and Iniesta. I don't think they will, though. I think there's just a little too much wear and rust on those cogs for that to happen.

I have no sympathy for Barca, be it said. None whatsoever. But I have no sympathy for Bayern either. So I actually hope Barca will play to the maximum one more time: Completely destroy Bayern with their tedious tiki-taka, Messi playing like an absolute demon and all the rest of it - it would be, as the kids say, epic.

 

[Dominos]

It's a bit different, Madrid aren't even a possession based team, for them to have 65% against another of Europe's elite is unheard of given they're a counter attacking side themselves.

Bayern actually do use the intense pressing game in their matches, it's just Barca with their first team out cannot lose a possession battle, pointing out that Bayern didn't dominate the ball against them is hardly a defence of our shortcomings, shortcomings that see us outplayed by the likes of Southampton at Old Trafford. If we played at the Allianz tomorrow we'd be severely dominated.

Having said that, it's more about control of games we exert and how we avoid being put under helpless pressure that's the main issue, not the statistics at the end of the match, that's not so important.

Nothing wrong with playing cautiously. It's the smart way to play, cover your weaknesses and target the opponent's weak points. It's how we dominated in Europe back in 2006-09.

The aim should be to have no weaknesses, right now we have a major and glaring one.

 

[thepolice123]

It's hard to argue with this. We don't have to change our attacking game, but I think it's fair to say the 'backing off' mode of defence just isn't up to scratch any more. All the best teams - and all the average teams who play brilliantly anyway - use a high-pressing defensive game.

That said, given the very high probability that we will not be changing our game under Ferguson, we should still be looking for that Wilshere, Thiago or Gundogan. We can try and make up for the strategic shortcomings by just having an embarrassment of good players.

I've mentioned this before in the Gundogan thread. The "old guards" Rio, Vidic and Evra needs to be replaced in order for that to happen. At their age, they are not quick enough to stepping out of the defence to press opponents anymore. That's part of the reason why we have been playing a deeper line.

In a way, that also affects our attacking play because our attackers will need to play further away from goal as opposed to the German attackers whose high-pressing can force turnovers nearer to goal.

 

[Isotope]

Looking at the Milan in late 80's, what we need is a Rijkaard or Desailly type of CM. An energetic DM that can pass the ball, and let Carrick as our Albertini. That Milan team played with 4-4-1-1 as we do, so the similarity is there.

Martinez would be an awesome signing. I thought Strootman could be the answer, but he's too similar to Carrick which is more of a passer and less mobile.

 

[paceme]

For me it's just tactics. Look at Southampton under Pochettino. Employing Dortmund like tactics and even with average players relative to ours, vastly improving their ability to compete against 'better' teams. Employing the right tactics enables you to gain control and dictate the tempo of a game. Our tactics just don't place enough emphasis upon pressuring opponents to expect to gain that control. We tend to relinquish control of the midfield and then try and win the ball back in our own half and counter from deep.

Bayern & Dortmund have been able to engineer such impressive and dominant performances because they intimidate and pressure opponents high up the pitch with their intensive team pressing. It not only restricts an opponents ability to create for themselves, but also forces mistakes in dangerous areas which provides plenty of opportunities to create good chances.

We don't seem to have any noticeable team strategy for disrupting our opponents ability to play their game at a tempo of their choosing. We see good players with time and space to look around and pick passes under very little pressure until they get to our final third. Personally i don't see how even buying 2 new midfielders and playing the same way, will provide us with any better control in these big games against the top teams.

I sort of agree, often we will be in control of a game but then suddenly lose our heads and it all go back to just tactical anarchy. I think we need to be better drilled as a whole at times but if we were to play a high pressing game we could not play with Ferdinand and Vidic, both are too slow these days, fantastic in other aspects but we would have to immediately pass the first choice pairing to Jones/Evans/Smalling. Which to be honest I wouldn't mind.

 

[Comsmit]

I sort of agree, often we will be in control of a game but then suddenly lose our heads and it all go back to just tactical anarchy. I think we need to be better drilled as a whole at times but if we were to play a high pressing game we could not play with Ferdinand and Vidic, both are too slow these days, fantastic in other aspects but we would have to immediately pass the first choice pairing to Jones/Evans/Smalling. Which to be honest I wouldn't mind.

I think you might be surprised how much those players would miss the experience and sheer class of Vidic/Ferdinand next to them. Rio in particular has been brilliant this season....without doubt our best defender overall.

I disagree that they could not play a part in a high pressing game, you don't need super-quick central defenders, it helps but provided they are postionally aware and you retain/use possession wisely then not essential.

 

[paceme]

I think you might be surprised how much those players would miss the experience and sheer class of Vidic/Ferdinand next to them. Rio in particular has been brilliant this season....without doubt our best defender overall.

I disagree that they could not play a part in a high pressing game, you don't need super-quick central defenders, it helps but provided they are postionally aware and you retain/use possession wisely then not essential.

I meant to say you couldn't play them both together, my mistake. It is risky when playing a very high line.