Realistically if we want to win the CL anytime soon..

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I did it for the whole team in the newbies. The ratings are based on my opinion of the current season performance (not their predicted potential). The midfield extract is as below...

2012/13 Season Ratings

Overall – Midfield: 5/10. Below average (excepting Carrick). Needs revamp.

P. Scholes: 5/10. Classic, but old. Still able to pull strings…occasionally.
R. Giggs: 6/10. Startling. Still a top choice.

M. Carrick: 9/10. Heart. Keeps team ticking. Would have been player of the season if not for RvP.

Anderson: 4/10. Disappointing…yet again. Couple of good outings, but never impressive. Well below his potential. To be sold.
Nani: 5/10. Mirage. Always there, but never real. To be swapped for someone more effective.

A. Young: 5/10. Injured. Judgement reserved till next season.
A. Valencia: Depressed. Needs to get his head right. Something to look forward to next season.

T. Cleverly: 6/10. Has potential. Star for future.
S. Kagawa: 6/10. Has potential. Star for future.

Transfer Dependancies:

- Whether we will sell Anderson & Nani.

If we do exclude Anderson/Nani next season (discounting Giggs/Scholes) we probably have a Valencia - Carrick - Cleverly - Young midifled with Kagawa playing behind the striker. It does not provide us much variations to experiment with and touchwood, no injuries!

 

[Annahnomoss]

5 times in history has Manchester United paid above 20 million quid for a player, Veron(01-02), Ferdinand(02-03), Rooney(04-05), Berbatov(08-09), RVP(12-13).

In average we have spent around 40~ mills per year. The sum has not been affected at all by whether or not we sold someone. The year we sold Ronaldo/Stam/Becks/RVN etc did not further boost the money we spent on buying players.

The reality of our transfer philosophy has been that we go for players who are between 15-20 mill as our "common purchases". Then once every 2-3 year in average we buy a player exceeding 20 mill - even though the frequency went down after Veron, Ferdinand, Rooney(who were all bought in 4 years.)

After the purchase of Rooney in 04-05 we have spent +20 mill 2 times in 8 years, which averages one +20 signing every 4 years.

If we change our transfer budget, it will be a radical structural change which goes against the idea we have had previously as a club under Fergie's lead.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Definitely, problem is where to put Rooney though. One reason I am open to the CM experiment. Rather him there than out on the left, hate playing him on the wing.

I would like to see Kagawa/Rooney in a 4-3-3, so Rooney and Kagawa took turns going forward/staying back. I think they are both intellectual enough to make it work with practice.

 

[Rossa]

This thread baffles me ever so slightly; Bayern is applauded for their midfield against Barcelona, but imo Barca played through them just as easily as they did and will do ours. Schweinsteiger and especially Martinez are very, very slow and thus didn't manage to close the Barca midfield down in midfield. What they did do well was that they closed down before their own 18 yard box, and thus they nullified the threat of Barca as they have next to no good long range takers in that team.

What they did brilliantly was their defensive work and their counter attacking. They outmuscled and outpaced Barcelona time and time again, and Barca's center backs are just not tough enough.

Imo, United would have stood a good chance of beating that Barcelona team!

 

[kouroux]

5 times in history has Manchester United paid above 20 million quid for a player, Veron(01-02), Ferdinand(02-03), Rooney(04-05), Berbatov(08-09), RVP(12-13).

In average we have spent around 40~ mills per year. The sum has not been affected at all by whether or not we sold someone. The year we sold Ronaldo/Stam/Becks/RVN etc did not further boost the money we spent on buying players.

The reality of our transfer philosophy has been that we go for players who are between 15-20 mill as our "common purchases". Then once every 2-3 year in average we buy a player exceeding 20 mill - even though the frequency went down after Veron, Ferdinand, Rooney(who were all bought in 4 years.)

After the purchase of Rooney in 04-05 we have spent +20 mill 2 times in 8 years, which averages one +20 signing every 4 years.

If we change our transfer budget, it will be a radical structural change which goes against the idea we have had previously as a club under Fergie's lead.

Good post and in other words signing Bale seems impossible (even more so if Spurs get that 4th place) never mind signing him and another player (possibly a CM)

 

[Ash_G]

I wouldn't say we're that far off, those games against real showed we could compete, we did better in them when it was 11 v 11 than I thought we were and that was with our wingers all of their game and rvp not at his best or Rooney. A midfielder and some better form from players and I don't see why we can't challenge properly.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

If we splash the amount of cash some people on here want us to spend, then we'd be hypocritical. We slate City for splashing the cash every Summer when it doesn't go their way.

I can't see Fergie changing his transfer style. He'll spend if a HUGE talent is for sale (Van Persie), but apart from that he'll focus on youngsters that provide value.

I agree with the OP - we do need to improve our midfield, but I don't want us to spend ridiculous amounts of money to achieve it.

 

[::sonny::]

Not a chance, we need too many players.
Maybe when we will be debt free.

 

[::sonny::]

I did it for the whole team in the newbies. The ratings are based on my opinion of the current season performance (not their predicted potential). The midfield extract is as below...



If we do exclude Anderson/Nani next season (discounting Giggs/Scholes) we probably have a Valencia - Carrick - Cleverly - Young midifled with Kagawa playing behind the striker. It does not provide us much variations to experiment with and touchwood, no injuries!

Agreed completely

 

[Cina]

I don't really think we need an amazing midfield to compete, it doesn't need to be on the level of Bayern or Barca's, it just needs more depth, someone who can play alongside Carrick regularly or (heaven forbid) replace him if he's injured. Cleverley is promising but we still can't be sure he'll be of the standard to play 40+ games a season at a high level.

We've always been more reliant on our strikers (who are amazing) and our wingers (who are not) and those are the two areas we should look to be up there with the very best in.

Basically, I think our midfield definitely needs some serious strengthening, but not to the extent where we splash out €40m on a player. I'm a big fan of Cabaye and I think he'd sort out a lot of our short term problems whilst we wait on Powell and Cleverley to develop.

 

[Jacob]

Rooney can be the answer, I'm impressed with his displays as a midfielder, just needs more experience there. Ideally, I would someone of the Vidal/Sweinsteigger mold, however, I wouldn't cry if we started the season with:

Carrick, Rooney, Cleverley, Giggs, Jones, Anderson and Powell in midfield.

 

[Cina]

Rooney is definitely not the answer, Anderson will be sold, and anyone who thinks Jones is a valid midfield option after his recent displays at center back is a numpty.

 

[Jacob]

Rooney is definitely not the answer, Anderson will be sold, and anyone who thinks Jones is a valid midfield option after his recent displays at center back is a numpty.

OK? Way to bring discussion. Jones is cover obviously.

 

[Cina]

It doesn't need a discussion. Even if Rooney were to be converted to a midfielder, it'll take quite a few years and he won't be the type of midfielder we need.

 

[Jacob]

It doesn't need a discussion. Even if Rooney were to be converted to a midfielder, it'll take quite a few years and he won't be the type of midfielder we need.

Yes, that's YOUR opinion but you state it as fact. Some might argue he already looks the part.

 

[thegregster]

That would cost us about 80 millions. Bale plus a quality CM that is.

We have spent 550million on interest and debt restructuring since the takeover.

 

[Cina]

he clearly doesn't already look the part though, about the only "midfielder" thing he did was spread some nice balls wide to Valencia, but even then, he made a shitload of wayward attempts that went straight to their full back.

I'll tell you what Rooney looked like against City, a great #10 trying to play as a midfielder, not a midfielder.

 

[Ash_G]

OK? Way to bring discussion. Jones is cover obviously.

Jones isn't proper cover though, particularly unless we get another defender, with the injuries we tend to have at the back, he'll still be needed there, not to mention he's also direct back up at rb.

 

[Cina]

When Jones plays in midfield, he doesn't actually play in midfield, he plays as a fifth defender (Madrid) or for some utterly bizarre reason, directly behind our striker while other, better #10's sit in midfield.

Any time Jones was playing "alongside" Carrick this season, Carrick was basically playing midfield alone.

 

[Badunk]

We should just get Rio to hoof it up to RVP, thus bypassing the need for a new CM.

 

[Badunk]

This thread baffles me ever so slightly; Bayern is applauded for their midfield against Barcelona, but imo Barca played through them just as easily as they did and will do ours. Schweinsteiger and especially Martinez are very, very slow and thus didn't manage to close the Barca midfield down in midfield. What they did do well was that they closed down before their own 18 yard box, and thus they nullified the threat of Barca as they have next to no good long range takers in that team.

What they did brilliantly was their defensive work and their counter attacking. They outmuscled and outpaced Barcelona time and time again, and Barca's center backs are just not tough enough.

Imo, United would have stood a good chance of beating that Barcelona team!

I agree. What got overlooked last night was the work put in by Ribery. He was phenomenal at tracking back and reminded me of Valencia or Ronnie in that respect. He ended up in a couple of sticky situations because of it (the header across his own goal and when he dribbled through his own box spring to mind), but he got lucky and was a huge factor in Bayern keeping a clean sheet.

 

[Zen86]

Rooney can be the answer, I'm impressed with his displays as a midfielder, just needs more experience there. Ideally, I would someone of the Vidal/Sweinsteigger mold, however, I wouldn't cry if we started the season with:

Carrick, Rooney, Cleverley, Giggs, Jones, Anderson and Powell in midfield.

Obviously doesn't take much.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

he clearly doesn't already look the part though, about the only "midfielder" thing he did was spread some nice balls wide to Valencia, but even then, he made a shitload of wayward attempts that went straight to their full back.

I'll tell you what Rooney looked like against City, a great #10 trying to play as a midfielder, not a midfielder.

I'd blame this more on Fergie than Rooney. He gave Rooney a free roving role and he ended up in the wrong positions. Like in the 1st leg against Real, he was trying more to help on the defensive against CR7 where it was not needed and should have helped more on the other end.

Give him the CM positions and agree on a tactical plan on what he needs to do and I think he is good enough for the role. His workrate and ability to score from edge of the box are impressive, moresoever that we do not need him that much up at point.

 

[Brightonian]

Wilshere.

/thread

 

[Annahnomoss]

he clearly doesn't already look the part though, about the only "midfielder" thing he did was spread some nice balls wide to Valencia, but even then, he made a shitload of wayward attempts that went straight to their full back.

I'll tell you what Rooney looked like against City, a great #10 trying to play as a midfielder, not a midfielder.

I agree that Rooney did not look anywhere close to a finished product. The main problem seemed to be that Rooney ended up being as defensive as Carrick, which none of our other CM's ever are.

Of course this would not be a problem if it wasn't for Rooney having his strength in that very same "part of the game" that he was not involved in. Kagawa seemed to get desperate by the fact that he never had any creative or offensive passing option due to this. He received the ball and instead of Rooney passing and moving forward, he passed and stayed back - making Kagawa very inefficient.

Just pointing out that Rooney may be better than he looked as it seemed to be a very distinct tactical decision from Fergie to deny Rooney freedom offensively. Of course this was very necessary in this individual game, but I don't think it would take long before Rooney would be more capable of finding his positions.

I don't think he is the best player for a 4-2-3-1 set-up at all though, the CM's in this tactic are often desired to be very balanced. If we play a 4-1-4-1 I think we will do much better.

Rafael----Ferdinand----Vidic------Evra
-------------------Carrick---------------
Valencia---Rooney------Kagawa---Nani

--------------------RVP------------------

We will keep the width which is part of United, we will keep our transfer policy which is a part of United and I think we would be very balanced?

Obviously would have to try it and see if Rooney/Kagawa can interchange in that position. I think they would do it very well however and we wouldn't need to use Evra/Rafael ultraoffensively.

We spent 15 mill on Zaha, so we have 25-35 mill left to spend this year if we want to follow our previous transfer budgets.

 

[Castia]

Bayern needed a midfielder and they didn't mess about, they decided to buyout one of the best young midfielders in Europe's contract at 35m because they knew how good he was and how long he can be a part of this Bayern team. I wish we would do something similar.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Bayern needed a midfielder and they didn't mess about, they decided to buyout one of the best young midfielders in Europe's contract at 35m because they knew how good he was and how long he can be a part of this Bayern team. I wish we would do something similar.

I do believe that Fergie has a plan with all these "budget" signings. There is a reason to why he felt more desire to spend big money 10 years ago than he does now.

Especially as the prices has sky-rocketed the transfers he did a decade ago on Rio/Veron/Rooney could have been "said" to be more expensive than Berba/RVP.

It is also interesting that the last 3 transfers exceeding 20 mill has been on strikers.

Probably Fergie sees that joining in the transfer-race is a dead-end and even though clubs like City/Chelsea/PSG have money now - the transfer race may kill them in the end.

 

[Rob Bowman]

How about naming some realistic targets? Even so these players would each cost at least £30-50m.

Strootman
Modric
Wanyama
Matic
Gundogan
Vidal
Cabaye
Erikson

or Lampard for free

Now we can debate the "realistic" part cause clearly in every transfer window the sure to stay and sure to leave has lots of movement, but seriously this list is with 5 seconds of thought. Seriously if our scouting department has a brain there are probably 10 other potential names.

 

[Wittmann45]

What happened to all the Ander Herrera talk? He's basically last season's Gundogan in a way...

 

[LR7]

Obviously doesn't take much.

Regardless of what it is you are ALWAYS on hand to dampen somebody's high opinion of Rooney. Thank goodness you're here because God forbid someone give him a little bit of praise.

 

[Rowem]

A lot of the names being touted about aren't better than Cleverley, IMO, or certainly aren't significantly better. And Carrick isn't merely good, at the moment he is on the same level as any top midfielder in the world.

The Carrick - Cleverley partnership has triumphed against top opposition this season, and would have triumphed against Madrid were it not for Nani's absurd red card. Very promising considering that this is Cleverley's first full season in a 2 man midfield. He certainly needs to improve his stamina but we have a gem in Cleverley and that seems to have been forgotten on here recently.

Clearly we do need to improve in midfield. I think we need to add a third high quality CM who can partner either Carrick or Cleverley, provide competition to both and offer a different style/option. However I don't think we are so significantly lacking that we need a complete overhaul.

What we need to add is a player who will be what everyone wanted/expected Anderson to become. In an ideal world I'd also be delighted if Fletcher returned to even 80% of the level he was at before his illness. Fletcher was outshining Carrick for a year or two. The club say that he has undergone surgery to resolve the problem, whereas previous treatment had been aimed at dealing with the problem. It might be wishful thinking but I'd take a fully fit Fletcher over any new Next Big Thing centre midfielder.

 

[Carl]

This is entirely a new theory.

If only we'd discussed this before!

 

[Rob Bowman]

A lot of the names being touted about aren't better than Cleverley, IMO, or certainly aren't significantly better. And Carrick isn't merely good, at the moment he is on the same level as any top midfielder in the world.

The Carrick - Cleverley partnership has triumphed against top opposition this season, and would have triumphed against Madrid were it not for Nani's absurd red card. Very promising considering that this is Cleverley's first full season in a 2 man midfield. He certainly needs to improve his stamina but we have a gem in Cleverley and that seems to have been forgotten on here recently.

Clearly we do need to improve in midfield. I think we need to add a third high quality CM who can partner either Carrick or Cleverley, provide competition to both and offer a different style/option. However I don't think we are so significantly lacking that we need a complete overhaul.

What we need to add is a player who will be what everyone wanted/expected Anderson to become.

Although I might disagree, you may be right about Clevery.

The far more important issue is that our CM would be in shambles if anuything happened to Carrick. This is the real reason we need another World Class CM imho.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

A lot of the names being touted about aren't better than Cleverley, IMO, or certainly aren't significantly better. And Carrick isn't merely good, at the moment he is on the same level as any top midfielder in the world.

The Carrick - Cleverley partnership has triumphed against top opposition this season, and would have triumphed against Madrid were it not for Nani's absurd red card. Very promising considering that this is Cleverley's first full season in a 2 man midfield. He certainly needs to improve his stamina but we have a gem in Cleverley and that seems to have been forgotten on here recently.

Clearly we do need to improve in midfield. I think we need to add a third high quality CM who can partner either Carrick or Cleverley, provide competition to both and offer a different style/option. However I don't think we are so significantly lacking that we need a complete overhaul.

What we need to add is a player who will be what everyone wanted/expected Anderson to become. In an ideal world I'd also be delighted if Fletcher returned to even 80% of the level he was at before his illness. Fletcher was outshining Carrick for a year or two. The club say that he has undergone surgery to resolve the problem, whereas previous treatment had been aimed at dealing with the problem. It might be wishful thinking but I'd take a fully fit Fletcher over any new Next Big Thing centre midfielder.

Yay! A thread complaining about our midfield!

Completely agree with the bit in bold. On the rare occasions that both Cleverley and Anderson have both been on top of their games Carrick has suddenly looked far less indispensable. At the beginning of last season he hardly featured and nobody seemed to care.

Cleverley has demonstrably improved from last season and there's no reason not to expect this to continue. I'm not very optimistic about Fletcher, I'm convinced Scholes will retire in the summer and I think we're going to cut our losses on Anderson. So yes, we need to get someone else in.

That said, we shouldn't underestimate how important and effective Carrick and Cleverley can be for us over the next few years.

 

[Rozay]

How about naming some realistic targets? Even so these players would each cost at least £30-50m.

Who would have thought, a good player being expensive.

 

[Rozay]

Yay! A thread complaining about our midfield!

Completely agree with the bit in bold. On the rare occasions that both Cleverley and Anderson have both been on top of their games Carrick has suddenly looked far less indispensable. At the beginning of last season he hardly featured and nobody seemed to care.

Cleverley has demonstrably improved from last season and there's no reason not to expect this to continue. I'm not very optimistic about Fletcher, I'm convinced Scholes will retire in the summer and I think we're going to cut our losses on Anderson. So yes, we need to get someone else in.

That said, we shouldn't underestimate how important and effective Carrick and Cleverley can be for us over the next few years.

Given how he's been used in recent games, and how he's performed in games before that - I'm not sure Fergie has decided for sure that Carrick/Cleverley will be his long term partnership. Neither do I feel Clev has been good to the extent that his form has said beyond reasonable doubt that he will be our first choice for years to come. Not in the same way Rafael's form has said that, for instance.

If we got this 'player who is the Anderson we all hoped for', chances are he would start with Carrick.

 

[Rowem]

If we got this 'player who is the Anderson we all hoped for', chances are he would start with Carrick.

Yup, all 60 or so games a season. Clevs wouldn't get a look in!

 

[KingEric7]

Martinez is the midfielder we should've broke the bank for imo, would've been able to form a partnership alongside Carrick and also we wouldn't be fecked if Carrick got injured.

Ideally now we'd get one holding midfielder and one more creative but still plays deep.

Martinez was so perfect, I still can't believe we didn't get him. I usually don't engage in too much transfer forum muppetry but I was going on and on about how ideal he was last summer. I've not seen too much of him for Bayern but it was frustrating seeing him put in that performance last night. He's cover, a replacement and a partner for Carrick all wrapped into one.

It's been said already but this next midfielder we get needs to be clearly of a higher standard than Cleverley, Anderson and Giggs. It may not be realistic to find one who'll be better than Carrick but we're just going to further clog up the midfield situation if we don't get this right. To me, although I have been quite taken with Cleverley at various points, he's not yet shown enough to suggest he'll be the midfielder we could really do with him being in the near future. He may well improve significantly but the likelihood is that we're going to be overly dependant on Carrick for a while unless we make a move.

 

[eric le roi]

We could have "realistically" won the CL this season, ftr.

Bollocks. Bayern would have had us for breakfast.

 

[NoLogo]

Yup, all 60 or so games a season. Clevs wouldn't get a look in!

Of course rotation is for sissies.