Really - why did so many of you think Mourinho was better than LVG?

[ryansgirl]

The absolute state of this thread.

Yes, it's terrible that people are discussing and debating while having different opinions instead of behaving like delicate, narcissistic petals and calling for a thread that has garnered big views and many responses to be locked and for anybody with a different opinion about Mourinho to be banned.

The free flowing debate seems like the original redcafe to me and that's a good thing. A simple solution if you don't like it, and I am saying 'you' to mean others generally as well - don't participate.

 

[ryansgirl]

Terrible idea.
Firstly - None of the threads on this site have any bearing on anything that happens in football. Someone making a negative thread doesn't have any impact on United's (or any team's) performance. And someone making a positive thread doesn't have any impact on United's (or any team's) performance.

So what makes this thread (for example) any worse than some 'The tide is turning' thread?
People would just be disliking threads they disagree with.
If you read a title/opening post and you don't like it, then close the thread and don't re-open it. Or is the idea of this forum for everyone to be 100% on the same wave-length and to be making the same threads each re-worded in 10 different ways?

Yes it's obvious. It seems there are a few posters on here with some issues that have nothing to do with football or with the redcafe and what it is here for.

 

[ryansgirl]

Thanks. Perhaps every thread should have a rate me button like when you can put your ratings on the team after a match. Just 2 answers like and dislike. If after lets say 50 votes its disliked more than liked its locked.

Be careful what you wish for. If you want to censor threads that don't have illegal content, harassment of other posters in the real sense etc and simply give an opinion you don't like, then expect your and your chums' threads to be inundated with 'dislike' votes. Sauce for the goose and all that.
A stupid idea to be frank with you.

 

[Client6]

Appointing LVG, who was going to fundamentally change the style of football that was played at United for two decades, for 3 years was a mistake in my opinion. It was never going to work out. Even if LVG had seen out his contract, was Giggs really going to continue to LVG's "philosophy"? That whole appointment and tenure didn't make sense.

We should have appointed someone who was a proven winner and who was not going to retire anytime soon. Mourinho, in the long run (if not already), is a better appointment than Moyes/LVG.

 

[ryansgirl]

Fair enough. The performances have always been more important to me. I'd rather be entertained than win trophies. Obviously doing both is the best result.

I understand Livvie, and I also miss the football from the recent and beyond past. However, a key issue here is that Manchester United is the biggest club in the English league, one of the world's huge clubs with all the recognition including economic that comes with it, and has had enormous resources poured into it which should mean success.

We remember the situation before Sir Alex came and while United had some seasons with entertaining football and silverware here and there, it was the title under Sir Alex that meant more. He was rightly given time, money and the patience of a lot of the fans although 'Fergie Out!' was heard among some of them at games.

The present situation is very different. Mourinho has become manager of a huge club that sacked its post-Moyes manager after 2 seasons of a different footballing style that yes was not entertaining sometimes (I think some posters have short memories of the FA Cup games and have forgotten the good games in the league) and has huge resources.

United should be patient but it should also demand success because as Sir Alex said when he was manager: "This club is built upon winning the title." Tommy Docherty, Dave Sexton and Ron Atkinson did not have anywhere near the resources that were poured into United with the management of Sir Alex, especially after the success brought in huge world-wide revenue.

 

[NYAS]

Ah, maybe I should be one of those fans who thinks the world has conspired for us to never win the Europa League, and concede that "only Spanish teams do well in it", and "you can't win the Europa League and do well in the PL at the same time", as I call for Mourinho to rest players on Thursday nights (it's a 2nd-rate competition, innit?) to save them for the league game on the Sunday as we heroically stumble to 6th place in another trophyless season with no Champions League football on the horizon and our record deal with Adidas slashed in half.

What's that you say? Win the only European trophy the club has never won, get into the Champions League group stages for next season and play in the UEFA Super Cup?

Nah, we're Manchester United. Forget that mickey-mouse Euro tournament and finish 6th in the league.

 

[wolvored]

Why feed trolls with some clear issues regarding opinions they don't like? May I remind you and the troll you answered that it is not your own personal forum.
The redcafe hs been areound longer than than you or others here who seem to think that it's fine to call for censorship of opinions they don't like.
In the nicest way possible - please grow up. Or make your own forum in a safe space somewhere on the net where you don't actually have to debate others' opinions.
There is nothing wrong with the opinions most people have expressed and there is nothing wrong with refusing to agree with trolls who haven't been around on the caf so long.
Even the snipe at me about some pages back for not posting so much says a lot about such attitudes. I don't apologise for having a life off the internet and I don't apologise for starting a thread that clearly resonates given the number of views and replies.

It was an idea that's all. As you said it's a forum to put our views across whether others like them or not and if people don't like them that's OK. I don't think I have attacked you on here if I have can you point that out? You telling me to grow up, because you don't agree with me, isn't that a snipe at me?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I understand Livvie, and I also miss the football from the recent and beyond past. However, a key issue here is that Manchester United is the biggest club in the English league, one of the world's huge clubs with all the recognition including economic that comes with it, and has had enormous resources poured into it which should mean success.

We remember the situation before Sir Alex came and while United had some seasons with entertaining football and silverware here and there, it was the title under Sir Alex that meant more. He was rightly given time, money and the patience of a lot of the fans although 'Fergie Out!' was heard among some of them at games.

The present situation is very different. Mourinho has become manager of a huge club that sacked its post-Moyes manager after 2 seasons of a different footballing style that yes was not entertaining sometimes (I think some posters have short memories of the FA Cup games and have forgotten the good games in the league) and has huge resources.

United should be patient but it should also demand success because as Sir Alex said when he was manager: "This club is built upon winning the title." Tommy Docherty, Dave Sexton and Ron Atkinson did not have anywhere near the resources that were poured into United with the management of Sir Alex, especially after the success brought in huge world-wide revenue.

You're impossible to take seriously when you come out with stuff like that.

For the record, Van Gaal was more than happy to plunder those huge resources and was given two full seasons of insane spending to see if he could turn things round and we did worse in his second year in charge than we did in his first. Which makes it slightly ironic that you're saying United fans should "demand success" while backing a manager who provided anything but.

 

[NextSeason]

Ah, maybe I should be one of those fans who thinks the world has conspired for us to never win the Europa League, and concede that "only Spanish teams do well in it", and "you can't win the Europa League and do well in the PL at the same time", as I call for Mourinho to rest players on Thursday nights (it's a 2nd-rate competition, innit?) to save them for the league game on the Sunday as we heroically stumble to 6th place in another trophyless season with no Champions League football on the horizon and our record deal with Adidas slashed in half.

What's that you say? Win the only European trophy the club has never won, get into the Champions League group stages for next season and play in the UEFA Super Cup?

Nah, we're Manchester United. Forget that mickey-mouse Euro tournament and finish 6th in the league.

Happy to win the Europa League and qualify for the CL but you went too far with a 17th place league finish. No way would it be acceptable for us to be in a relegation scrap and basically survive on the last day of the season.

The league will and should always be our bread and butter for what we are judged on.

 

[NYAS]

Happy to win the Europa League and qualify for the CL but you went too far with a 17th place league finish. No way would it be acceptable for us to be in a relegation scrap and basically survive on the last day of the season.

The league will and should always be our bread and butter for what we are judged on.

I obviously don't want us to finish 17th.

The point is in the following hypothetical scenario for this season:

Would you rather finish 17th and win the Europa League?

Or would you rather finish 5th/6th in a trophyless season?

 

[NextSeason]

I obviously don't want us to finish 17th.

The point is in the following hypothetical scenario for this season:

Would you rather finish 17th and win the Europa League?

Or would you rather finish 5th/6th in a trophyless season?

5th/6th and trophyless obviously. Winning a cup would not make it okay for us to be in a relegation battle! How do you think we would do in the CL the following season?! You've adopted the mentality of a small club - we're Manchester United, mate.

 

[SalfordRed1960]

You're impossible to take seriously when you come out with stuff like that.

For the record, Van Gaal was more than happy to plunder those huge resources and was given two full seasons of insane spending to see if he could turn things round and we did worse in his second year in charge than we did in his first. Which makes it slightly ironic that you're saying United fans should "demand success" while backing a manager who provided anything but.

There was pretty much nothing wrong with what was said in that post you replied to. You only have to contrast last year Everton away to yesterday. The former was full on entertaining attacking football (Yes, under LVG).

The majority of games under LVG were bore fest games, but there really is agenda style propaganda to paint the previous 2 years as managed by a shite manager with shite players playing shite football.

The amount of spending in the first year has to be taken into context. Many players had reached the tipping point in age and performance, others had stagnated in performance even under Fergie. The sqyad was in need of major overhaul. Jose, needs to bring in his players to tweak as he did in Chelsea, but he doesn't need to overhaul.

The Caf members will never agree on the quality of purchases, just as they never agree on tactics, formation and style.

LVG's record was from 7th to 4th to 5th, with an FA cup. So by your logic, if Jose does not better 5th, then he has done worse. So will the rules change and he should be given more time.

 

[NYAS]

5th/6th and trophyless obviously. Winning a cup would not make it okay for us to be in a relegation battle! How do you think we would do in the CL the following season?! You've adopted the mentality of a small club - we're Manchester United, mate.

Manchester United is a huge club that needs to be winning trophies and competing in tournaments with the best of the best. That's why I would prefer winning the Europa League. It doesn't mean I would prefer that every season, but only this season. The stakes are higher than ever and we can't afford the potential failure.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

There was pretty much nothing wrong with what was said in that post you replied to. You only have to contrast last year Everton away to yesterday. The former was full on entertaining attacking football (Yes, under LVG).

The majority of games under LVG were bore fest games, but there really is agenda style propaganda to paint the previous 2 years as managed by a shite manager with shite players playing shite football.

The amount of spending in the first year has to be taken into context. Many players had reached the tipping point in age and performance, others had stagnated in performance even under Fergie. The sqyad was in need of major overhaul. Jose, needs to bring in his players to tweak as he did in Chelsea, but he doesn't need to overhaul.

The Caf members will never agree on the quality of purchases, just as they never agree on tactics, formation and style.

LVG's record was from 7th to 4th to 5th, with an FA cup. So by your logic, if Jose does not better 5th, then he has done worse. So will the rules change and he should be given more time.

Don't be so stupid. My point is that Van Gaal did worse in his second season than his first. An underwhelming first season in charge can - in part - be blamed on the previous manager and a squad that isn't fit for purpose. Failing to improve on that debut season is hard evidence of a manager whose project is failing. If Mourinho's reign follows the same trajectory I would hope the exact same rules apply.

Re the entertainment. A handful of entertaining games spread over the course of two seasons under Van Gaal does bugger all to change the fact we were usually awful to watch under him any more than the dull game on Sunday changes the fact we've been generally good to watch under Mourinho.

 

[Nighteyes]

Under LVG, I never ever got the feeling that he would eventually get it right and that the patience was ever going to bear fruit. All I ever saw was a bunch of posters arse licking him for playing modern football which consisted of spending 90 mins of doing feck all and hoping to nick a goal.

With Mournho, I feel he'll get it right. There's a far far more reason to be optimistic even if the results have been less than convincing. He's perfect for us.

 

[starman]

Cant believe this thread is still going. The football is so much better under Mou, we should be at least 6 points better off, were it not for the end of game collapses. Something you dont normally associates with Mou at all. Im still confident of 4th and can see a long winning streak happening soon

 

[NextSeason]

Manchester United is a huge club that needs to be winning trophies and competing in tournaments with the best of the best. That's why I would prefer winning the Europa League. It doesn't mean I would prefer that every season, but only this season. The stakes are higher than ever and we can't afford the potential failure.

Winning trophies yes, but not at a cost of finishing 17th in the league. I can't see how you can't see that's a ridiculous thing to say/feel.

 

[NextSeason]

Cant believe this thread is still going. The football is so much better under Mou, we should be at least 6 points better off, were it not for the end of game collapses. Something you dont normally associates with Mou at all. Im still confident of 4th and can see a long winning streak happening soon

True about this silly thread still going. I got caught in a derailed issue so am going to stop posting in here so hopefully the thread dies the painful death it deserves.

 

[DOTA]

I was considerably more reluctant to sack LVG than most and indeed considerably more reluctant to appoint Jose.

I recall a thread along the lines of 'Jose haters - what does he need to do to win you over?', around the time of his appointment, and I stated that a top four finish and good seasons for Martial and Rashford would change my view. Things aren't looking too good on those fronts, as yet...

That said, I do see the improvement in our play that others do and I do still have hope that can turn in to results. It needs to happen soon, though, before confidence falls to levels you don't come back from.

 

[SalfordRed1960]

Don't be so stupid. My point is that Van Gaal did worse in his second season than his first. An underwhelming first season in charge can - in part - be blamed on the previous manager and a squad that isn't fit for purpose. Failing to improve on that debut season is hard evidence of a manager whose project is failing. If Mourinho's reign follows the same trajectory I would hope the exact same rules apply.

Re the entertainment. A handful of entertaining games spread over the course of two seasons under Van Gaal does bugger all to change the fact we were usually awful to watch under him any more than the dull game on Sunday changes the fact we've been generally good to watch under Mourinho.

And that statement there say's it all about the tinted glasses you wear.

Look at almost every match or post match thread and there are people screaming out at the poor performances. In one of your other posts you mentioned we had only been bad in 2 or 3 games and they were an exception. I listed about about 8 games in that thread that were not only complete bore fest, but were very poor performances, I could quite easily add Hull and Everton to that list. There have been very few good performances for most of the 90 minutes. Having a good period in games like Leicester, West Ham, City which were also not on my list, does not hide the fact that we were garbage in the rest of the game.

There has obviously been an improvement in chances created, and that is largely due to midfielders going past the back line and being more attack minded. So Jose should get credit for that (it is not inspite of him, which is the BS comments were heard last year for LVG when things went well), This is something most could never understand in the LVG era, as to why our midfield players stopped going past the opponents defenders. That is a plus, so it is not all doom and gloom. The other things that are noticeable is that Jose seems to be able to get the team to create chances against teams that park the bus (something LVG was rubbish at), but on the other hand against the big teams Jose is more concerned about the strengths of the opposition, rather than playing against their weaknesses, so we tend to be more negative against stronger teams, e.g. Rashford and Co playing further away from the front line.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

We're playing much more fluid football than we did under LVG because A) we've signed the players to do that and B) we've been freed up from the shackles of LVG's complicated system that our players weren't suited for.

However, to counter the above, we knew how to drill out results better under LVG. Whether some of that was actually down to LVG's rigid tactics, I don't know. But comparing the two sets of players, our results were far better under LVG (particularly the 1st year) than they've been under Jose so far.

 

[NYAS]

Winning trophies yes, but not at a cost of finishing 17th in the league. I can't see how you can't see that's a ridiculous thing to say/feel.

Like I said, the stakes this season are higher than others.

Mourinho was supposed to be the right one. If he isn't, we really are fecked. Any legitimacy the higher powers at this club have had, and any belief in the top management structure will be destroyed in an instant.

This season was the season where we were supposed to get into the Top 4 and stay there for a long time. Players joined us based on the fact that our shiteness was just a temporary thing.

Failing this season would be the biggest blow to this club in ages. There are so many consequences that weren't necessarily there or as grave as when we failed with Moyes and Van Gaal.

As far as I'm concerned in terms of results at the end of the season, we're getting into desperation territory and that's completely justified and deserved.

 

[NYAS]

Cant believe this thread is still going. The football is so much better under Mou, we should be at least 6 points better off, were it not for the end of game collapses. Something you dont normally associates with Mou at all. Im still confident of 4th and can see a long winning streak happening soon

That last sentence just shocks me. I can't absorb how on earth you feel that way. Literally the one thing this team has shown us is that it's completely fecking incapable of putting a couple of league wins together.

That's the only thing this team has proved to us, and they've done that in a quite admirable way.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We're playing much more fluid football than we did under LVG because A) we've signed the players to do that and B) we've been freed up from the shackles of LVG's complicated system that our players weren't suited for.

However, to counter the above, we knew how to drill out results better under LVG. Whether some of that was actually down to LVG's rigid tactics, I don't know. But comparing the two sets of players, our results were far better under LVG (particularly the 1st year) than they've been under Jose so far.

Nope. We'd lost 3 and drawn 4 at this point in LVG's first season. Hardly "far better". And a lot of points gained in that run were in matches where we'd been completely outplayed (often by bang average opposition) and we needed DDG miracles to bail us out. Surely you haven't forgotten that stuff already? 5 at the back? The humiliation by MK Dons? All in a season where we had no European distractions so fancied ourselves to have a real crack at the league.

 

[DOTA]

Nope. We'd lost 3 and drawn 4 at this point in LVG's first season. Hardly "far better". And a lot of points gained in that run were in matches where we'd been completely outplayed (often by bang average opposition) and we needed DDG miracles to bail us out. Surely you haven't forgotten that stuff already? 5 at the back? The humiliation by MK Dons? Christ, that stuff is seared in my memory.

I assumed he meant the first season, under LVG, as a whole, not just the same amount of time Jose has had thus far.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I assumed he meant the first season, under LVG, as a whole, not just the same amount of time Jose has had thus far.

Well that's a crappy comparison, then.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Nope. We'd lost 3 and drawn 4 at this point in LVG's first season. Hardly "far better". And a lot of points gained in that run were in matched where we'd been completely outplayed (often by bang average opposition). Surely you haven't forgotten that stuff already? 5 at the back? The humiliation by MK Dons? Christ, that stuff is seared in my memory.

We weren't 9 points behind the 4th place side in LVG's first season at this stage were we? And last season we were in a title before disintegrating into a circus. Either way we were always in a 4th place race (hurray). So we were obviously doing better results-wise. And how badly we were outplayed doesn't matter given I was talking purely about results.

Since then the rest of the top 4 have improved and given the brilliant players Jose signed in the transfer window (credit to him), so should have we. Instead our results have got worse/far worse/almost the same/whatever, while the other sides have improved.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We weren't 9 points behind the 4th place side in LVG's first season at this stage were we? And last season we were in a title before disintegrating into a circus. Either way we were always in a 4th place race (hurray). So we were obviously doing better results-wise. And how badly we were outplayed doesn't matter given I was talking purely about results.

Since then the rest of the top 4 have improved and given the brilliant players Jose signed in the transfer window (credit to him), so should have we. Instead our results have got worse/far worse/almost the same/whatever, while the other sides have improved.

That makes no sense at all. If they had stayed (relatively) shit we'd be a better off right now.

 

[DOTA]

Well that's a crappy comparison, then.

I think it's useful, in terms of thinking about what Jose needs to do if he's to be less crap than LVG's first season, come May.

I'm losing faith in my assumption that this was what amol was thinking, mind.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

That makes no sense at all. If they had stayed (relatively) shit we'd be a better off right now.

Bizarre comprehension skills. I'll give you a hint: there are words in between the ones you bolded.

It's fairly simple Poguey. LVG was generally challenging for top 4. Mourinho is miles off the pace. So results wise, we are doing worse. It's not debatable. Just like us creating more chances is not debatable.

With regards to improvement, it's also fairly simple. The other teams have improved this year. We should have given the players we've added to a nearly 4th place side. But we haven't. In terms of results we've gotten worse/stood still.

 

[Raoul]

Like I said, the stakes this season are higher than others.

Mourinho was supposed to be the right one. If he isn't, we really are fecked. Any legitimacy the higher powers at this club have had, and any belief in the top management structure will be destroyed in an instant.

This season was the season where we were supposed to get into the Top 4 and stay there for a long time. Players joined us based on the fact that our shiteness was just a temporary thing.

Failing this season would be the biggest blow to this club in ages. There are so many consequences that weren't necessarily there or as grave as when we failed with Moyes and Van Gaal.

As far as I'm concerned in terms of results at the end of the season, we're getting into desperation territory and that's completely justified and deserved.

It seems you set your own instant gratification expectations and will now have to deal with the reality that success doesn't always happen immediately.

 

[Raoul]

Bizarre comprehension skills. I'll give you a hint: there are words in between the ones you bolded.

It's fairly simple Poguey. LVG was generally challenging for top 4. Mourinho is miles off the pace. So results wise, we are doing worse. It's not debatable. Just like us creating more chances is not debatable.

With regards to improvement, it's also fairly simple. The other teams have improved this year. We should have given the players we've added to a nearly 4th place side. But we haven't. In terms of results we've gotten worse/stood still.

That comparison doesn't really work since the top clubs have improved significantly this year and are all bundled at the top, whereas Leicester were more or less the team to catch last year.

 

[Raoul]

Under LVG, I never ever got the feeling that he would eventually get it right and that the patience was ever going to bear fruit. All I ever saw was a bunch of posters arse licking him for playing modern football which consisted of spending 90 mins of doing feck all and hoping to nick a goal.

With Mournho, I feel he'll get it right. There's a far far more reason to be optimistic even if the results have been less than convincing. He's perfect for us.

Agreed. The football is simply better and more entertaining this year.

 

[dannyrhinos89]

I really want to like mourinho but he is making it very hard, he was the one that cost us the game yesterday the subs he made were utterly pointless. I mean for somebody who's meant to be a master tactition then why on earth when our backs are against the wall would he bring on a clumsy fouling machine who has no football talent at all, Mata would've been a better option as he knows how to at least take time on the ball and relieve pressure.

End of the day though he needs a couple of windows to bring his own players in and mound the team around said players then we might see a top 4/title challenge.

 

[Frasbul]

We will win the league next season. And we will win some trophies this season. He is a good manager.

 

[DOTA]

We will win the league next season. And we will win some trophies this season. He is a good manager.

Yay.

 

[Raw]

We will win the league next season. And we will win some trophies this season. He is a good manager.

Care to put a bet on that?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Bizarre comprehension skills. I'll give you a hint: there are words in between the ones you bolded.

It's fairly simple Poguey. LVG was generally challenging for top 4. Mourinho is miles off the pace. So results wise, we are doing worse. It's not debatable. Just like us creating more chances is not debatable.

With regards to improvement, it's also fairly simple. The other teams have improved this year. We should have given the players we've added to a nearly 4th place side. But we haven't. In terms of results we've gotten worse/stood still.

I have no idea what point you're making. I only quoted you to correct your assertion that results were "far better" under Van Gaal. They quite literally weren't.

If you take our results so far and assume we'll get the exact same results from now on until the end of the season then you'd have a point but that would be an absurd argument to make. So yeah, results weren't "far better" under Van Gaal. I'll leave you to wiffle on in peace now.

 

[Frasbul]

Care to put a bet on that?

what can you offer?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

That comparison doesn't really work since the top clubs have improved significantly this year and are all bundled at the top, whereas Leicester were more or less the team to catch last year.

Indeed. But the point is that we stook one step towards that improvement by signing excellent players but our results still got worse or stood still. And of course that in relative terms, those results were better. Not sure what's debateable. Being closer to 4th us better than being far off.