RedCafe Sheep Draft - Jayvin vs Thisistheone

[antohan]

I really have no idea what's with you and all the ranting @AldoPaine18 . Seems like you are making a habit of going into every game, finding something to chew on or just making it up out of thin air, then go on and on and on about it. Ronaldo, Scirea, now Scholes, I guess we will work out what the rant inducing XI is at some point by the end of this year.

It's not fair on the manager who finds himself at the end of it. I've mentioned it before, yet here you are going at it again. Voting Jayvin, too many openly arguing on the other corner for my liking and, if anything, I've helped Tito a fair bit already by bringing up his sub options.

 

[Moby]

There wasn't any rant in there and there's nothing that makes it unfair for a manager. All these times you have come on and said I take the corner of the manager, it's only been you and no one else has expressed anything like that, which makes sense because it is all a general discussion about the players involved and I don't think anyone is fixated on the result of the voting that much that he'd go on and start telling people what to say, how to say it and when to say it.

 

[antohan]

You have ten posts in the thread, 4 as a mod, 5 banging on about Scholes being underrated and tearing into Jayvin's midfield, and then this one above. Excuse me for not finding that balanced or fair on Jayvin, but I don't.

 

[Moby]

Also, since this isn't the first time you have 'accused' me of not discussing things the right way despite me offering several explanations of what's really going on, perhaps you don't understand them or don't agree with them or whatever it is but I am a bit tired of repeating the same thing everytime of these threads come up. So to be very honest, and with utmost respect, I would really appreciate if you could stop bothering me regarding this thing in future. I believe I'm past the age, perhaps slightly, to decide how to discuss something on an online forum and I don't think I need a baby sitter disciplining me for that. Thanks a ton.

You have ten posts in the thread, 4 as a mod, 5 banging on about Scholes being underrated and tearing into Jayvin's midfield, and then this one above. Excuse me for not finding that balanced or fair on Jayvin, but I don't.

Again, I can't help it if you find it unfair, I don't. Sorry.

 

[Moby]

Well it might be unfair if everyone's vote is changed after reading what AldoPaine18 has to "bang about" on the teams, which is sort of flattering, but not the case, I believe.

It's so lame that I have to go on and actually discuss how to discuss something. I bet everyone's having a right laugh looking at a couple of blokes throwing handbags based on literally nothing.

 

[Annahnomoss]

@Jayvin
For me it is so even it is all down to which version of Zlatan you are using? The currently peaking Zlatan is a huge misfit in this team compared to the younger Zlatan who had that world class burst of acceleration and dribbling which was the main reason to his older wonder goals. Could beat 4-5 player at best, but would with ease drift wide and provide width for Shearer as well as act the playmaker.

The current Zlatan has lost that bit of acceleration which his dribbling was needing for him to provide width at the absolute top level. He still today provides runs out wide at times but he rarely gets past his first defender and instead uses his dribbling to get that one yard which allows him to make a pass instead.

So which Zlatan are you using? The younger, pacey, explosive dribbling monster who had issues with goalscoring or the elder one who is an outstanding goalscorer and in general much smarter and more experienced.

The current Zlatan is better centrally in the pitch, but a lot worse out wide. The younger Zlatan naturally drifted wide in the attacks.

 

[sajeev]

I strongly disagree. And I'm getting a bit fed up of going over and over the same thing here.

This Baraja, seedorf boban and Deschamps love in is incredible, it really is. None if these would lay a claim to being one of Utd's best ever players of the last twenty years. This is the calibre of player we're talking about here with Scholes.

I'm honestly stunned I'm having to stick up for players as brilliant as Scholes, Deco, Mascherano, Totti and De Rossi. It's as if I'm playing against Rijkaard, Didi, Falcao and Zico.

you are under-rating the other team's players which is to be expected.

as brilliant as Mascherano & De Rossi

i don't get how you can laud De Rossi and Mascherano while at the same time discount Seedorf, Baraja and Deschamps. They are clearly better than your players apart from Scholes.

You are having to stick up for Scholes, Deco - because it is not very clear how that would work - again it is not as if they are playing another league team - they coming up against a very high caliber of players. You are having to stick up for Totti because Ibramovich is playing for the opposition. You are having to stick up for De Rossi because he is not all that you build him up to be.

Mascherano would give away enough free-kicks for Zlatan to win the match.

Your team lacks width and is coming up against a very high caliber of defenders (i know you want to bang on about the Juventus 5, they are pretty good as a unit but individually i would rate Jayvin's defence better), who you tried to dismiss very cheaply.

i am sorry if i am coming across a bit aggressively, i think you have a really great team, just don't think it is going to win against Jayvin's team

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Also, going back to what Balu was saying about my fullbacks needing to track TITOs wide men when they start their runs from deep, I don't really think that is necessary to be honest. TITO only has Totti in the centre, and he's got Deschamps for company. So if TITOs men stay wide, it's not really a threat - what are they going to do, cross it in for Totti?

All Hierro and Thuram need to do is pick them up when they cut inside. Let's say Suarez is attacking down the right, Thuram can track him and even push out to RB himself because TITO has no presence in the centre that pins my defenders back. So I think my fullbacks will be able to get forward quite a bit more than everyone initially thought.

I really don't like the idea of allowing Suarez and Savicevic that much licence to run at your centre backs. As good as Hierro and Thuram are, inviting one vs ones against dribblers of that calibre seems crazy,

 

[antohan]

Well it might be unfair if everyone's vote is changed after reading what AldoPaine18 has to "bang about" on the teams, which is sort of flattering, but not the case, I believe.

It's so lame that I have to go on and actually discuss how to discuss something. I bet everyone's having a right laugh looking at a couple of blokes throwing handbags based on literally nothing.

Handbags? I'm just saying in a game that is so finely balanced the difference can be made by something so simple as having 2-3 people banging on about one side while the other side's manager isn't even around. I've been there before, it's not nice.

 

[Moby]

Handbags? I'm just saying in a game that is so finely balanced the difference can be made by something so simple as having 2-3 people banging on about one side while the other side's manager isn't even around. I've been there before, it's not nice.

I don't see it making any difference in the voting margin. If a majority if supporting a particular side then probably there's a reason behind it. I've been there as well, you know, and I don't find it a problem. Was it the case here, or did anyone say he voted because I banged on, apparently, about one team? I'm really in the dark on why you've brought this up in this thread.

At least, I'm solely discussing things related to the game and not voting against someone to "see a more competitive final" or "since someone in the thread supported the opposition I'll be the bringer of justice and vote for the guy to make it fair". To me that's far more unfair but as I said, I'm not really gonna tell you how to conduct yourself, I don't have that right. I hope this is mutual.

 

[Brwned]

Surprised to see Boban getting so little love in here.

Not surprised to see another silly personal argument getting in the way of things again.

 

[Jayvin]

I really don't like the idea of allowing Suarez and Savicevic that much licence to run at your centre backs. As good as Hierro and Thuram are, inviting one vs ones against dribblers of that calibre seems crazy,

Let's say Neville is forward and I get caught on the counter, Suarez starts running at Thuram and manages to beat him, going out wide is pointless so he cuts inside where he still has to beat Hierro. TITO has no striker who will occupy my centrebacks, so even when he breaks on the counter it's still going to be 3v3 (Hierro/Thuram and one of Neville/Evra, since I won't be sending both fullbacks forward at the same time) or 3v4 if you include Deschamps (which you should, since he is marking Totti and with 3 capable midfielders ahead of him only has to worry about the defensive aspects of the game)

 

[Pippa]

I don't really understand the Roma 2007 comparison

Roma had a regista, David Pizarro, in between the two roaming midfielders. Pizarro dictated tempo, led the transition for counter-attacks, playing extremely deep in midfield to recover the ball from the central defenders in order to shuttle the ball outwards. Instead you have someone like Mascherano in his place? I don't understand that. Then you have Scholes and De Rossi in front of Mascherano, neither of them can replicate the role of a Perrotta in midfiel, a foil for someone like Totti to have even more influence in the final third.

Scholes does not run like Perrotta, even though he is more skilled. The runners weren't from wide, they were from the middle, which caused the main issues with the central defenders for the opposition. That's what the entire marvel was about with Totti, because it created space in the final third that you did not normally see with a traditional style of play. Scholes scored a lot when he was further forward, De Rossi had a couple of high-scoring seasons, but they're not real runners that shuttle for a regista, like Pizarro, who you have replaced with Mascherano. The entire concept doesn't work when arguably the most crucial position in the formation isn't played by the right footballer.

Di Livio doesn't provide the offensive threat that Panucci did when he was one of the top scorers for Roma that year. He's way more disciplined, Panucci played with much, much more freedom than he did in Madrid, that's for certain. Savicevic's not really a winger either, your wide players don't seem like the type to provide width...but if you mean that they would collect the balls from wide positions and come inside, it makes sense. Forgive me for not having read through all 6 pages

I mean, you do have a lot of similarities with that Roma team, even the weaknesses they had. I can't see many similarities between Mancini and Suárez for example, but it looks like Suárez has the same role that Vucinic had (and struggled massively with) after the ankle surgery. Savicevic is playing the Mancini "role" on the right which is where Taddei provided width, so I think you have it the other way around or something. You said early on that you're able to set the pace of the game and hold more possession, but that's not really how Spalletti looked to play, no?

It reminds me a bit like those movies that say "based on a real event" but it's just a small detail in the entire plot. Nice team though

 

[Jayvin]

Thanks for the support, Anto. But I'm actually in a better position now than I was before Aldo made the majority of his comments. I think it made less of an impact because I'd already got a lot of my points across before I went to bed, so it wasn't completely one sided like it has been for me in the past. I'm more annoyed about the complete randomers who voted for TITO in the first 30 minutes, none of whom offered any reasoning as to why they voted that way. Bloody scan voters

 

[Pippa]

I don't understand the Real Madrid 1998 comparison either...

The three best, and most important players in the team - Roberto Carlos, Fernando Redondo, Raúl González - are all replaced by different types of players in Evra, Deschamps, and Boban. they are all great footballers, but you're redefining the roles of the most crucial players by using a different style of footballer in each position. sure, you replaced Moro and Mijatovic with superior options but the brain of the team, the best player, Fernando Redondo, is replaced by none other than Didier Deschamps. That says it all IMO. This isn't even mentioning how different both Raúl and Boban are in their interpretations of an attacking midfield role, with Raúl it was about finding pockets of space and creating channels for Moro to pick up balls from deep, creating space for Mijatovic who would regularly interchange with Raúl, because they were almost the same type of player from 1996-1998.

It's certainly a diamond, but not really something worth comparing to the great 1998 side. Too many major differences IMO.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Just rambling here....

------------Totti--------------------
----Suarez--------Savicevic---
-----------Scholes------------------
--- Mascherano ---- Di Rossi-------
------------Back 4 ----------------

Totti dropping back whilse Suarez/Savicevic advances, Suarez and Savicevic on either side of Deschamps making marking difficult, Scholes dictating from inbetween of the 2 midfielders and passing from Mascherano/De Rossi direct passing middle or even wide as both AM's can drift, freeing up the fullback as due to 2 DM's..... So much confusion to opponents!

 

[Moby]

Let's say Neville is forward and I get caught on the counter, Suarez starts running at Thuram and manages to beat him, going out wide is pointless so he cuts inside where he still has to beat Hierro. TITO has no striker who will occupy my centrebacks, so even when he breaks on the counter it's still going to be 3v3 (Hierro/Thuram and one of Neville/Evra, since I won't be sending both fullbacks forward at the same time) or 3v4 if you include Deschamps (which you should, since he is marking Totti and with 3 capable midfielders ahead of him only has to worry about the defensive aspects of the game)

I doubt Thuram will have much trouble in dealing with Suarez, he has dealt with more difficult opponents successfully.

If it was a team that solely depended on Suarez and Thuram had to do nothing but mark him out completely he'd do it. In this case the support case and constant movement and interchange is what is tricky, but I doubt there'll be much trouble from Thuram's side in a 1v1.

 

[Balu]

Let's say Neville is forward and I get caught on the counter, Suarez starts running at Thuram and manages to beat him, going out wide is pointless so he cuts inside where he still has to beat Hierro. TITO has no striker who will occupy my centrebacks, so even when he breaks on the counter it's still going to be 3v3 (Hierro/Thuram and one of Neville/Evra, since I won't be sending both fullbacks forward at the same time) or 3v4 if you include Deschamps (which you should, since he is marking Totti and with 3 capable midfielders ahead of him only has to worry about the defensive aspects of the game)

I don't have any problems with that. I actually believe that the problems with fullbacks not getting back into position are often exaggerated in these games. But you made a few comments earlier which sounded like your centerbacks are mainly defending against his wide forwards while your fullbacks don't need to track them at all, that was really strange and that wouldn't work, imo.

 

[Jayvin]

I don't understand the Real Madrid 1998 comparison either...

The three best, and most important players in the team - Roberto Carlos, Fernando Redondo, Raúl González - are all replaced by different types of players in Evra, Deschamps, and Boban.

Don't see the issue with Carlos/Evra, both attack minded left backs who timed their forward runs impeccably. Deschamps and Redondo are different, yes; Redondo was much more complete but I think Deschamps is actually a better fit in terms of doing a job on Totti. Boban will also contribute more defensively than Raul while still being able to float around and create space for others.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Evenly tied. Balu, Pippa not voted yet. Interesting?

 

[Jayvin]

But yeah, they aren't going to play exactly like that Real Madrid side in the 98 final, I wouldn't want them to considering the opposition is completely different. But I feel comparisons with real life teams always help and I don't think my side and Madrids are too dissimilar. The main differences are the more limited role given to Deschamps and the role the strikers play, both of whom I think are better fits against an opponent like TITO. If he was playing a back 5 then yes, it would be preferable to have Raul and another striker like Mijatovic who will run the channels.

 

[Jayvin]

Evenly tied. Balu, Pippa not voted yet. Interesting?

A few other managers are still yet to vote too. Should be an interesting finish...

 

[Balu]

A few other managers are still yet to vote too. Should be an interesting finish...

I'm still undecided here, wouldn't mind a penalty shootout at the moment .

 

[Pippa]

Don't see the issue with Carlos/Evra, both attack minded left backs who timed their forward runs impeccably. Deschamps and Redondo are different, yes; Redondo was much more complete but I think Deschamps is actually a better fit in terms of doing a job on Totti. Boban will also contribute more defensively than Raul while still being able to float around and create space for others.

Huge difference between the 1998 version of Roberto Carlos and mid-late 2000s version of Patrice Evra, especially in terms of attacking abilities. I don't think it's worth going into extensively, but with Seedorf on the left side of the diamond it allowed Roberto Carlos to play the role of left wing. And with the progression into the sweeper formation in the 1999 period it gave him even more attacking freedom...his forays lessened by 2003 or so, when he became a much better defender, certainly better than he is credited for.

The difference between Redondo and Deschamps is so crucial because Redondo was the axis of the great team of the late 1990s. The team was built around his offensive and defensive capabilities, with the acquisitions of Seedorf and Karembeu, as well as playing a more centralised philosophy built on tempo-setting coming from Redondo, the magician in the middle of the diamond. It's like playing a 2011 tiki-taka with Sulley Muntari instead of Xavi, or something like that.

Raúl's presence in the hole allowed Mijatovic, an obscenely talented #10/CF to drift wide or deep in order to let the runner through, most of the time Seedorf, Raúl, or Carlos. Moro brought down aerial balls; he is certainly a better hold-up player than either Ibrahimovic, not sure about Shearer, and this allowed someone like Raúl who is known for his intelligence and team-play to bring others into the equation. I think Raúl had about 15 assists or so that season, his highest ever.

It's a diamond, but not like Real Madrid.

 

[crappycraperson]

Voted for Jay. Was very close, will expand soon

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

This would influence my coming match greatly, I think. I can see similar arguments.

 

[Thisistheone]

So sad and disappointing that antohan has ruined the match. Me and jay have spent hours building these teams. Aldo has put in tons of effort organizing the whole thing yet this poster antohan insists on always taking the fun out and getting overly competitive and personal.

Jay all the best mate for the rest of the game. Thanks to everyone who voted. I'll come back on later when it's all done but right now the game has been soured for me by the usual culprit. And he's frankly made me loose interest.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

So sad and disappointing that antohan has ruined the match. Me and jay have spent hours building these teams. Aldo has put in tons of effort organizing the whole thing yet this poster antohan insists on always taking the fun out and getting overly competitive and personal.

Jay all the best mate for the rest of the game. Thanks to everyone who voted. I'll come back on later when it's all done but right now the game has been soured for me by the usual culprit. And he's frankly made me loose interest.

Don't give up yet.

Let's not turn this into a personal rivalry session. I was not influenced by either and almost all here are mature enough to make their own decisions. THe discussion was on posting styles between Aldo/Anto and did very little on others opinions.

And as I mention, couple of managers yet to vote. Keep fingers crossed.
.
.
Does not matter who wins, it still was a cracking start to the tournament!

 

[Jayvin]

I'm still undecided here, wouldn't mind a penalty shootout at the moment .

 

[Jayvin]

It's a diamond, but not like Real Madrid.

See my previous post. They're lining up in much the same way, but the playing style will be different. I've got a more limited player (but stronger defensively) in Deschamps over Redondo, but my side makes up for that somewhat by having a genuine midfield playmaker in Boban, whereas Raul was a CF who dropped deep.

I agree that Ibrahimovic is somewhat lacking in his movement compared to Mijatovic, but he's not the statue some are making him out to be.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

Currently on a draw! Great matchup.


@antohan , I've read through you're arguments with @AldoPaine18 and if I got it right what you are pissed at is that Aldo is massively pro-TITO's team? And that he defended it and argued for it while Jay wasn't around? I honestly don't see why that's a problem. If Aldo or anyone for that matter comes in to this match unbiased(which is the basic status unless he was someone's AM) I think he can and should speak his mind about this match regardless of what the outcome of other voter's opinion may become as a result of that. Just like someone explains why TITO's front three won't work or whatever, it doesn't mean it's not right because TITO might not be around at that moment to defend it. We got bloody six pages of defending here, neither Jay or TITO missed a chance of defending their side, and that's what its all about.. I think you should ease your anger mate it just takes the fun out for both you and Aldo..

I don't understand the Real Madrid 1998 comparison either...

The three best, and most important players in the team - Roberto Carlos, Fernando Redondo, Raúl González - are all replaced by different types of players in Evra, Deschamps, and Boban. they are all great footballers, but you're redefining the roles of the most crucial players by using a different style of footballer in each position. sure, you replaced Moro and Mijatovic with superior options but the brain of the team, the best player, Fernando Redondo, is replaced by none other than Didier Deschamps. That says it all IMO. This isn't even mentioning how different both Raúl and Boban are in their interpretations of an attacking midfield role, with Raúl it was about finding pockets of space and creating channels for Moro to pick up balls from deep, creating space for Mijatovic who would regularly interchange with Raúl, because they were almost the same type of player from 1996-1998.

It's certainly a diamond, but not really something worth comparing to the great 1998 side. Too many major differences IMO.

Best post in this match, Redondo's influence on that Madrid side is unmatchable and you can't build a side like Madrid 98 without first finding someone to play Redondo's role. He doesn't have to be as good because there's like 3 of them out there, but he's got to be the exact same type of player and incredibly good.

 

[Jayvin]

Another turn around! This match is crazy

 

[kps88]

Anto accusing someone of ranting and going on and on. Is it irony day?

 

[crappycraperson]

TITO leading by one now

 

[crappycraperson]

I was gonna write my thoughts but I fear it may kick off something again

 

[Jayvin]

Jay all the best mate for the rest of the game. Thanks to everyone who voted. I'll come back on later when it's all done but right now the game has been soured for me by the usual culprit. And he's frankly made me loose interest.

That's a shame mate, the players are fighting hard for you!

I'm actually hoping for a penalty shoot out at this stage, great matchup like this deserves an exciting finish. Anyway, regardless of what happens I've enjoyed this match (and draft) more than any other I've been involved in. No grudges if you come out on top TITO.

 

[Jayvin]

Still a few managers left to vote:

@sullydnl
@Polaroid
@Gio
@Chesterlestreet

 

[Cutch]

I've voted for TITO. Think he's found a good system to get the best out of all of his players, whereas i'm not convinced Jay has with Shearer and Ibrahimovic. It's very close but.

 

[Balu]

I'm going with TITO as well. I'm a huge Totti fan and I like the platform he has in this game. But it's damn close, both teams are well drafted and well working teams, really strong for the first round of games and I could see it go either way in most games. I really like the connections in TITO's defense and I am a huge fan of these fluid movement sides - like probably everybody knows from my Dutch side in the last draft. It's so difficult to defend against them, if they are working well and I can see TITO's team working here.

Wouldn't be surprised if we see quite a few weaker teams win in the rest of the games that would have lost against both sides here. Unlucky to face each other so early.

 

[Jayvin]

game set and match. well done TITO, good luck with the rest of the tournament