it is indeed all about opinions. but i think seedorf will effect the game more than both of them, and you are over-rating the technical attributes compared to the complete game.
RedCafe Sheep Draft - Jayvin vs Thisistheone
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
I agree he is key but not as a focal point/target. Mmmm... words could get tricky here, I think he is the one everyone else plays off (or runs away from in Cruyff speak) but not necessarily one all the play runs through. Scholes could, should and would also play Suarez/Savicevic on directly, there's no need for this one touch, spin, pass. It's just one of the options. His value is in being there and everything else being able to gravitate around his presence there, without necessarily having to resort to passing it to him. If that makes sense.
True it's all about opinions but I honestly think you're over-rating Seedorf. If he was as good as you're making out he'd be in the all-time list of midfielders alongside Neeskens, Falcao, Matthaus etc.
I think so... yeah, the spin and pass is just one option, of course. An example of what could happen. But Scholes is Scholes, he will affect the game too. He's got De rossi behind him and Deco next to him who covers a hell of a lot of grass.
Which is why I said earlier that (depending on how the teams play) the fullbacks kind of cancel each other out, neither pair can really get forward at will or they leave holes at the back. The difference is the defensive support both sides will receive from their midfield, and in that regard TITOs side unquestionably loses out.
I also have the option of crossing from deep or playing a bit of old fashioned hoof-ball thanks to my towering strikers. Crossing isn't an option for TITO, in fact overall I think his side is slightly more limited in terms of attacking options.
The full backs don't cancel each other out. Mine are having a far easier ride. Yours are dealing with Suarez and Savicevic. You can't ignore this because they can make runs centrally. The're not limited to just that.
Hoof ball? Really, thats Sam Allardyce talk. Montero and Ferrara aint exactly weak either. They played against many phyical strikers all over Italy and Europe and matched them all.
Little bit disappointed with the lack of love for the Juventus 5 actually.
I read, was answering his query. Not complaining.
I'm not so sure, your midfielders actually start centrally and run wide, which means his fullbacks have more time to get back into position after runs forward, while yours need to be there out wide when one of his wide players receives the ball or your in trouble. I think it's easier for him to get his fullbacks involved without exposing the defense than the other way round. I agree with most what you've written about your advantage in midfield though.
Ok still early but its clear a lot of posters see Mascherano as a better fit for this game and a good manager corrects a tactial error early on in the day like Mourinho.
Sub:
Sub:
I'm actually surprised at how little weight this seems to carry, when playing without actual wingers/widemen you would expect/want the two CMs to be comfortable not just centrally but out wide. Yours are, his aren't, nobody seems to give two shits about it though.
Why? When Milan won the CL they just had Pirlo, Gattuso and coincidentally Seedorf.
Is this meant to be a rebuttal? Gattuso right, Seedorf left, precisely.
OK, I'm lost here. Is Baraja / Seedorf not similar?
Damn. Midnight here. I'm wandering off...
In a team that mostly tries to score on the counter and gets the fullbacks involved without exposing the defense, I don't think it's a big problem. Really like the Mascherano for Deco change. It helps TITO a lot, imo. In general, I agree of course.
I like the balance of Jayvin's side better and his front pairing present an incredible headache for any defence.
Thing is, with Jay and his full backs, he's pretty much telling them to bomb forward at all times, and is acting like Suarez and Savicevic don't exist.
Thats a recipe for disaster.
Thats a recipe for disaster.
Yes, absolutely. My point though was for some reason people don't seem to appreciate/take into account how important that is.
@antohan
Mascherano on before any damage was done and a very slender lead.
I can see where you and the others are coming from in regards to Deco, so he has come off. Better than letting the issue run and run without addressing it.
Mascherano on before any damage was done and a very slender lead.
I can see where you and the others are coming from in regards to Deco, so he has come off. Better than letting the issue run and run without addressing it.
I'd agree, but I haven't seen much talk of Tito playing on the counter other than me saying it was better and you agreeing. You've mentioned it before, don't assume the side is playing the way you think it should be playing but the way the manager has instructed them to. Deco there also indicated it wasn't a counter setup.
TITO said:
I never said the fullbacks will be bombing forward at all times. Here's what I posted, modified slightly now Deco has gone off.
If Suarez and Savicevic are providing genuine width and not cutting in, then Neville and Evra can cover them while Baraja/Seedorf track Pessotto/Di Livio. That leaves Totti alone in the centre against Hierro and Thuram, giving me a spare man (along with Didier Deschamps) to cover the late runs of Scholes or double up on one of the wingers, which leaves TITO's attack pretty impotent.
If Suarez and Savicevic cut in, then Hierro and Thuram cover them while Deschamps takes care of Totti. Baraja can take care of Scholes in midfield, leaving the fullbacks to cancel each other out, although Nevilles crossing from deeper positions will be an asset with two strikers so outstanding in the air. Once again, TITO's attack seems pretty impotent.
If Suarez and Savicevic are providing genuine width and not cutting in, then Neville and Evra can cover them while Baraja/Seedorf track Pessotto/Di Livio. That leaves Totti alone in the centre against Hierro and Thuram, giving me a spare man (along with Didier Deschamps) to cover the late runs of Scholes or double up on one of the wingers, which leaves TITO's attack pretty impotent.
If Suarez and Savicevic cut in, then Hierro and Thuram cover them while Deschamps takes care of Totti. Baraja can take care of Scholes in midfield, leaving the fullbacks to cancel each other out, although Nevilles crossing from deeper positions will be an asset with two strikers so outstanding in the air. Once again, TITO's attack seems pretty impotent.
This is wrong in so many ways..
Voted for Tito.
My attack is not impotent in the slightest! Such an exaggeration!
You're talking alot of shit Jay mate, to win votes, which is fair enough but come on!
The bolded bits?
1) Evra and Neville "can cover them" as if its that straight forward. They will get joy against those full backs no question. Suarez will get at Neville. Suarez gets at every defender in fairness. And Savicevic? Aaron Lennon rips Evra up, Dejan will find one or two ways to get past him, and that could be all it needs to sway a tight game.
2. Thats a few times you've thrown this in there and it's just not the case. Scholes will get joy there. You're down playing him so so much its unreal.
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Got to agree with VivaJanuzaj on this, you're acting as if the presence of Baraja neutralizes arguably the best central midfielder of his generation. And describing a forward line of Suarez, Savicevic and Totti as impotent is just nonsense.
Out of interest, was it the Deco for Mascherano sub that swayed it, or something else?
I would've voted differently if I'd taken my time to see your change. Very important change imo
Even with the tactical change and sub I still think my side would win the midfield battle. Scholes defending against Baraja? I'd fancy the Spaniard to get the better of him for the most part, especially since Scholes has probably already picked up a booking. 
My fullbacks don't have to bomb forward at all times to make an impact, they just have to time their runs well so they can receive the ball from Seedorf/Baraja on the overlap after the former have dragged TITOs fullbacks out of position. Good thing Neville and Evra in particular were superb at this.
On the other side, it's less of an issue if Savicevic/Suarez drag my fullbacks out of position because I've still got 2 central defenders free, since Deschamps is covering Totti. While TITO's centrebacks will always be occupied with Shearer and Ibra.
My fullbacks don't have to bomb forward at all times to make an impact, they just have to time their runs well so they can receive the ball from Seedorf/Baraja on the overlap after the former have dragged TITOs fullbacks out of position. Good thing Neville and Evra in particular were superb at this.
On the other side, it's less of an issue if Savicevic/Suarez drag my fullbacks out of position because I've still got 2 central defenders free, since Deschamps is covering Totti. While TITO's centrebacks will always be occupied with Shearer and Ibra.
I was already leaning towards you, as feel your attack will work better than his. Plus your original midfield trio will retain possession extremely well, particularly with totti in attack.
So it didnt have lot to do with that sub, although it will make you very solid while I felt that original midfield might be a tad lightweight.
Ok cheers.
Yeah, I honestly felt my midfield would keep the ball AND be able to hold their own against his in a physical sense. But Mascherano will hopefully change the voters who were perhaps unsure.
You ignored the part where I said one of the Hierro/Thuram doubles up with Evra/Neville on the wide man.
When I say player X is covering player Z, I simply mean that is who he is designated to mark. Of course Scholes isn't going to completely break down and become a non-entity because Baraja is shadowing him, but it IS going to limit Scholes' effectiveness. He'll still play some great passes, because he's Paul freaking Scholes, but without time and space he won't be as effective, which is the whole point.
Anyway, I've stayed up far too late and am probably starting to ramble. Time for bed.
Cue antohan relentlessly picking holes in my team while I'm asleep
Cue antohan relentlessly picking holes in my team while I'm asleep
Isn't that the thing though, with great players? You can attempt to mark them or shadow them yet sometimes there's nothing you can do to stop them. As Anto said, better players than Baraja have attempted to stop Scholes, and failed.
I'm not so sure. I think TITO got sucked into the usual possession/midfield battle discussion that always occurs in these game threads. His op sounds a lot like counterattacking to me, at least as a primary way to goal:
Sounds a lot like a very direct game plan with quick transitions and a lot vertical off the ball runs. You could argue if his players are best suited to this style, but it is based on the tactics of that Roma side in 2007 and imo that was primary a counterattacking team. Their biggest flaw was that they could be tricked into a possession based game, which left them vulnerable to counterattacks themselves. Probably the main reason, why that Roma side looked tactically far ahead of United in the first leg but completely collapsed in the 2nd, when Ferguson figured it out. Interesting enough, both managers made imo exactly those mistakes. Jayvin not fully aware of how important the defensive job of his fullbacks is, while TITO somehow decided to dominate the game, which exposed his weaknesses
. I've no idea what the means for the outcome, but it's a great game to watch so far.It's more likely that he starts defending your team and then votes against you in the endAnyway, I've stayed up far too late and am probably starting to ramble. Time for bed.
Cue antohan relentlessly picking holes in my team while I'm asleep
.@Balu
Pretty much right from the off my midfield was deemed lightweight and nothing about the whole side being like Roma's 433 direct/counter style was mentioned. So I had to defend and concentrate on the midfield and state that Scholes, Deco and De Rossi are no push overs and can get stuck in if needed.
So yeah you're basically right, i got sucked in.
There was a response though with Mascherano brought on. And now hopefully it makes a difference. If more fight or power was needed, it's now there with Javier. An excellent ball winner. Breaking up play, he will actually help me hit on the break more. With the pace I have up top in Suarez and Savicevic, it will be deadly.
Pretty much right from the off my midfield was deemed lightweight and nothing about the whole side being like Roma's 433 direct/counter style was mentioned. So I had to defend and concentrate on the midfield and state that Scholes, Deco and De Rossi are no push overs and can get stuck in if needed.
So yeah you're basically right, i got sucked in.
There was a response though with Mascherano brought on. And now hopefully it makes a difference. If more fight or power was needed, it's now there with Javier. An excellent ball winner. Breaking up play, he will actually help me hit on the break more. With the pace I have up top in Suarez and Savicevic, it will be deadly.
Formation updated.
Cheers.
Anyway, I've stayed up far too late and am probably starting to ramble. Time for bed.
Cue antohan relentlessly picking holes in my team while I'm asleep
No worries mate, sleep well.