You probably misunderstood the comment then. I don't think anyone has said Rio is flawless or anything, and even if anyone has, it just means he's far less likely to make a mistake than others instead of meaning that he "cannot" make a mistake, which is what needs examples.
Redcafe Sheep Draft QF3 - Polaroid vs Pippa
- Thread starter Moby
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Sorry lads, my device died on me earlier so I went to bed
Pippa has really downplayed the quality of some players here, saying Busquets can only pass the ball backwards under pressure, Eto'o etc
Sergio Busquets
Fernando Redondo
Argentine grandmaster who schooled an entire generation of midfield greats
Zinedine Zidane
Poetic footballing artist and fiercely competitive winner who dominated the biggest theatres in breathtaking and awe inspiring fashion
Brian Laudrup
Insanely gifted Danish wizard who weaved such dazzling magic leaving opponents with wide eyes, dropped jaws and floundering limbs.
Samuel Eto’o
Born to score, such natural instincts and seemingly effortless talent, screamers, tap-ins, headers, volleys, he scores them all
Pippa has really downplayed the quality of some players here, saying Busquets can only pass the ball backwards under pressure, Eto'o etc
Sergio Busquets
Cruyff said:
Xavi said:
Del Bosque said:
Guardiola said:
Mascherano said:
Fernando Redondo
Argentine grandmaster who schooled an entire generation of midfield greats
Zinedine Zidane
Poetic footballing artist and fiercely competitive winner who dominated the biggest theatres in breathtaking and awe inspiring fashion
Brian Laudrup
Insanely gifted Danish wizard who weaved such dazzling magic leaving opponents with wide eyes, dropped jaws and floundering limbs.
Samuel Eto’o
Born to score, such natural instincts and seemingly effortless talent, screamers, tap-ins, headers, volleys, he scores them all
Pippa has stated he is playing a deeper line for a counterattacking setup
1. He has the runners but where are the passers???
2. deeper line = more room in midfield which Zidane-Redondo-Busquest will no doubt exploit
Sorry, have to go now, family time
1. He has the runners but where are the passers???
2. deeper line = more room in midfield which Zidane-Redondo-Busquest will no doubt exploit
Sorry, have to go now, family time
Another shootout? 
I didn't say that exactly about Busquets. I used the example against Bayern because he (and the rest of the team) were never pressed by a team so cohesive and understanding of each other's role. He's always the type of player to play the safe pass, his preferred passing destination is almost always to either his fellow midfielders or defence. How often does he play defence-splitting passes?
I haven't underplayed Eto'o at all. I said he's not a better finisher than van Nistelrooy, but said he's better with the ball and he is quicker than van Nistelrooy. I also said Thiago Silva can match up to him in speed. That's it, literally.
You don't need a Pirlo-type figure to play on the counter-attack, either. Silva has passing skills that could put most midfielders to shame, and it's not like Gullit and Vieira were average passers, not to mention the likes of Giggs, Irwin, and Donadoni as wide passing options.
I haven't underplayed Eto'o at all. I said he's not a better finisher than van Nistelrooy, but said he's better with the ball and he is quicker than van Nistelrooy. I also said Thiago Silva can match up to him in speed. That's it, literally.
You don't need a Pirlo-type figure to play on the counter-attack, either. Silva has passing skills that could put most midfielders to shame, and it's not like Gullit and Vieira were average passers, not to mention the likes of Giggs, Irwin, and Donadoni as wide passing options.
Tell me more about how your press is supposed to reach the levels of Bayern(or similar) to negate Busquets influence of the game?
I went with Pippa in the end, probably no surprise, but I'm not sold on the dominating possession is the way to win games idea. Pippa has a midfield as perfect as you can hope for to contain Pol's midfield, while I simply can't see Pol stopping Pippa's attacks down the wings. I don't get the questions about how Pippa would make the transition from defense to attack? Unless Bale, Laudrup and Zidane are all of a sudden a perfect pressing machine, Pippa's players are good enough on the ball to initiate counterattacks. You don't always need a Pirlo to attack on the counter. I'm also sold on the proven connections in Pippa's team and believe they will help to win the game out wide. Donadoni and Gullit on the counter? Irwin and Giggs together on the left wing? That's proven brilliance in the crucial areas, I'm sold on that.
I also believe that pace is slightly overrated for counterattacking football. Intelligent movement is just as difficult to contain as sheer pace. Covering the pace of the striker is still far far away from getting back into a well organised defensive shape. Ruud might not get into many one-on-ones with Neuer, I actually doubt that will happen at all, because there's arguably no better sweeper keeper in the history of the game than Neuer (yes, I already rate him that highly). However, attacking quickly down the wing with Ruud in the box and Gullit running towards goal, will lead to quite a few brilliant chances for Pippa's team.
I don't believe that Busquets instead of Petit increased Zidane's and/or Redondo's influence on the game, that's my biggest problem here. I actually believe that a more direct approach would help Zidane to get away from Desailly's man-marking.
I also believe that pace is slightly overrated for counterattacking football. Intelligent movement is just as difficult to contain as sheer pace. Covering the pace of the striker is still far far away from getting back into a well organised defensive shape. Ruud might not get into many one-on-ones with Neuer, I actually doubt that will happen at all, because there's arguably no better sweeper keeper in the history of the game than Neuer (yes, I already rate him that highly). However, attacking quickly down the wing with Ruud in the box and Gullit running towards goal, will lead to quite a few brilliant chances for Pippa's team.
For me it's much more believable that hard working intelligent midfielders are capable of doing a great defensive job than that three technically gifted players with no connection throughout their career are capable of replicating the almost telepathic understanding Busquets had with Xavi and Iniesta.
I don't believe that Busquets instead of Petit increased Zidane's and/or Redondo's influence on the game, that's my biggest problem here. I actually believe that a more direct approach would help Zidane to get away from Desailly's man-marking.
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First off, he's not playing the same type of midfield formation that Barcelona played out, with a double-pivot instead of Barcelona's single-pivot. Busquets tucks inside the central defenders to create space for himself, and it works because almost no team in Europe can match Barcelona's midfield. It spreads the opposition and offers simpler passing lanes. Bayern got the better of Barcelona's midfield because Schweinsteiger and Martínez could bully Barcelona's central midfielders, Martínez especially. When you're playing a double-pivot, unless there is a clear difference in terms of player roles it doesn't offer the lone midfielder freedom, which is exactly why I used Desailly as a pivot instead of a Desailly-Vieira pairing.
Secondly, Vieira is simply an animal when it comes to defending. He won the most tackles, was arguably the most aggressive defensively in Europe in his time. There is not a single midfielder in this draft, apart from Edgar Davids, who would do a better job at harassing midfielders, closing them down, and blocking passing lanes. Vieira at 6 feet 2 inches was not only strong, but fast, agile and intimidating.
Klaus Topmoller, Leverkusen coach, after Arsenal beat Leverkusen in the Champions League: "He is a player par excellence. He wins every fight, anticipates the ball and is very aggressive. I'm not surprised that every team wants to buy him. He's one of the best players in the world. Vieira is by miles the best footballer in his position in the world."
Wenger on Vieira, after the same match: "He won the ball and played it forward for the first two goals and then scored the third. There is not a better player in the world in that role but I have said that many times before."
Is Vieira the world's best defensive midfielder?
Desailly on Vieira: "I was with Roy Keane recently and he told me that Patrick Vieira was his toughest opponent. Today you can see that players have so much ability. In the past, having the fighting spirit was enough, but now you really need to have basic technical skills. But players like Keane and Vieira, they were able to make an impact because of their ability to compete all over the pitch."
Opta compared his tackling efficiency to the likes of Keane and Davids, and he completely dominated them in that tally. Davids with 61 tackles (87% success), Keane with 81 tackles (78% success). And it's really fantastic, to see it coming from someone who was just a box-to-box midfielder. If anything, Vieira's only weakness was that he never was a great shooter of the ball, but with his supporting cast it's not really necessary, is it?
Desailly will stick to Zidane, the attack-minded midfielder, just like Martínez was closing down Iniesta. And normally that would leave Redondo and Gullit as the spare men in midfield, both complete two-way midfielders. The key here is that instead of a man-marking mission from Bayern, it was Mueller simply playing his own role, what he excels at. The difference being how Desailly and Mueller would mark Busquets, where one is much more physical and aggressive, obviously Desailly.
Bayern didn't press Barcelona with their midfielders in the defensive third, only when they were nearer the half-way line and coming into Bayern's half. That's when the space becomes more constricted, as it's almost 10 men behind the ball. Busquets was constantly passing sideways, backwards, never threatening Bayern, because the spaces were closed down with such intensity. The likes of Giggs, Donadoni, Vieira, Gullit, Desailly -- these are all athletes who are no slouches defensively.
Denis Irwin was quoted a couple of years ago about Giggs, talking about how he felt so at ease attacking fullbacks because he knew Giggs would track back, support him defensively. Desailly, Gullit, Donadoni, these are all footballers who played under Sacchi and/or Capello. Sacchi was known for his two flat banks of four, with such a complete footballer in Gullit partnering van Basten, another all-around forward. Capello came in, immediately was playing Desailly in the holding midfield role. Capello emphasised Desailly's influence, saying: "Let's not forget the turning point. That is Desailly's signing."
The way I see it, my group of midfielders all have the skill and intelligence to battle with Polaroid's midfield, but the x-factor here is how physical my group can get.
You would never see Busquets or Redondo getting into physical duels, instead they relied on tactical fouls and anticipation. I wish Zidane all the luck against someone like Desailly, marking him so closely. They don't call him "The Octopus" for no reason. Desailly, the same marker who is raved about by the likes of Laudrup, Maldini, Litmanen, amongst others.
It's simply wearing them down, making sure they know that they won't be able to play the ball in my third of the pitch.
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Longer than I wanted it, but that's the full explanation. 
I agree with all the bolded so I hope I haven't said something to make it seem like I don't.
The rest I disagree with though. I think Busquets is the perfect third link to make sure Redondo and Zidane's influence is heightened as much as possible.
I think Zidane will have troubles with Desailly - but that he will just drag out wide leaving Desailly in his zonal marking centrally - or if he man marks him it leaves Gullit-Vieira as a two man midfield with a huge hole behind.
I think that Busquets/Redondo/Zidane will have an equally hard time defensively though. I think they'd hate how easy it is for Pippa to just pass it out wide, cross it early and have RVN, Gullit, Vieria and you could even have Desailly if he was pushing for a goal and had Donadoni and both full-backs staying behind.
For me both these teams will have a dangerous offense, Pippa in a very direct style and Polaroid in a more intricate but still penetrating style.
Exactly. A huge hole in behind, but who's going to make use of that space?
If Laudrup comes inside, Irwin will track him fully. Gallas is doing a "pure man-marking job" on Giggs as per Polaroid's tactics, so there goes the overlap option. Laudrup is completely isolated as a winger with no offensive support from his fullback, I think, as per Polaroid's tactics.
Bale on the left is covered by Angloma. I have the utmost confidence in someone like Angloma to track Bale's runs, in terms of quickness and defence. Alaba provides an option on the overlap, but Donadoni is more than capable to track him, just like he did in Milan. Bale isn't a playmaker at all, so I can't see him threading passes into Eto'o.
Can you see Busquets and Redondo driving forwards to make up for the loss of creativity in the final third, if Zidane is phased out by Desailly? Do either of them have the mobility to be able to come up forward to join the attack, if Zidane is phased out by Desailly?
What I don't buy is that;
1. Desailly can man mark Zidane completely. Zidane would drag Desailly with him out wide and Zidane would be first on the ball so he would be allowed to do his playmaking albeit a limited form of it. Zidane would be the one winning that battle in my eyes.
2. Your full-backs are now man marking the wingers? Bale would otherwise just continue to the right wing or make runs behind the defense, receive the ball in the huge hole after Desailly man marked Zidane wide left , and shoot.
I don't think those two points of yours are reasonable, which is why I see Pol creating a lot of chances as well.
1. Desailly can man mark Zidane completely. Zidane would drag Desailly with him out wide and Zidane would be first on the ball so he would be allowed to do his playmaking albeit a limited form of it. Zidane would be the one winning that battle in my eyes.
2. Your full-backs are now man marking the wingers? Bale would otherwise just continue to the right wing or make runs behind the defense, receive the ball in the huge hole after Desailly man marked Zidane wide left , and shoot.
I don't think those two points of yours are reasonable, which is why I see Pol creating a lot of chances as well.
I voted Pippa, I think his participation and desire has been a notch ahead and I think that will to win would transfer to his team.
Gullit, Vieria and Desailly make up a completely dominating aerial force both offensively and defensively. I think Pippa would play some buttugly football with plenty of early crosses leading to plenty of corners too.
Gullit, Vieria and Desailly make up a completely dominating aerial force both offensively and defensively. I think Pippa would play some buttugly football with plenty of early crosses leading to plenty of corners too.
Just one vote in it!
Consistency absolutely has to come into it otherwise someone like Alvaro Recoba is someone you can rely on to beat three man and score a screamer in every game.
I think pointing out that Ferdinand at his peak wasn't this utterly flawless, all-conquering physical specimen is fair game and absolutely necessary in these games because he is close to the "god" status of a Maldini or Redondo as antohan put but I can't understand this point at all. Of course you'll be able to find someone outpacing Djukic. It's such an absurd point to raise that no-one would even bother taking the time to trawl through youtube just to prove it. 07-08 was unquestionably Rio's best season and even in that season he made mistakes - no doubt about it. On most of those occasions I'd put it down to a lapse in concentration and being caught slightly flat-footed rather than any physical deficiency though. Rio was rapid and is more than quick enough to deal with van Nistelrooy.
Anyway, I think leaving Alaba in there was criminal and is going to be exploited easily by Donadoni and that will be the easiest route to goal. Giggs against Gallas has got to be the second most dangerous matchup of the game too. I can definitely see Pippa's midfield making things very difficult for Polaroid's midfield in much the same way Makelele-Essien-Lampard did for Barcelona's midfield and I just don't see the same threat from Polaroid's attack here. Both great teams but Polaroid has more weaknesses that can be exploited while his strengths can be dealt with to a decent degree by Pippa's midfield.
I don't see with side having an advantage here. Despite superiority in wings, Pol has enough to counter Pippa. And the same goes the other way too. If you look at individual match winning performances, I can't see any making the difference.
incoming penalties in 15 minutes
EDIT: JUST AS I WRITE THIS, PIPPA GOES 10-9!!
EDIT: JUST AS I WRITE THIS, PIPPA GOES 10-9!!
Evened it out. I'm going for flair over solidity here.
Bored of penalties now, hopefully this is determined in normal time.
I'd want Zidane and Redondo to take way more risks and look way less after possession as a defensive strategy, but that's what you want with Busquets in there, imo, especially when he needs to defend against Viera or Gullit, if his team looses possession. I'd much rather have a Makelele in there, someone who allows Zidane to do whatever he wants without looking at the greater picture. Zidane always struggled to fit in a greater tactical concept, imo, which is one of the biggest reasons for his inconsistency and a not really impressive trophy haul on club level (if you look at the teams he played for, he should have won more). Have him play a cautious game, one that is about keeping possession and waiting for the right moment to play a pass, and you make him much more predictable. Give him the freedom to take risks and it's much more difficult to take him out of the game, he will create more chances with through balls for Bale and Eto'o in this case.
I don't think Petit was a weakness here and needed to be replaced. I don't mind if someone disagrees, but that's how I see Zidane and that's what I meant with Busquets not increasing Zidane's influence on the game. He just helps keeping more possession for the sake of it, not because it will lead to Zidane creating more chances.
Couple of votes right at the end.
Another shootout!
I really didn't want penalties but fair's fair. Was always leaning towards Pol. If I had taken a couple of more seconds on my cup of tea, he would have been out of this.
Went for Pol in the end.
Thought his side had the more standout peak performers.
Thought his side had the more standout peak performers.
So a Pol win? He didn't vote
Yeah Pols won
Shit thats a gutter for Pippa. So close.
Aye he was leading till the end. It was 10-9 till the last couple of minutes I think.
Anyway, congrats Pol and tough luck, @Pippa. It was great having a knowledgeable poster like you get involved and hope to see more of you in future.
It was always a draw without Pol voting for himself.
Oh, I didn't notice that he had voted for himself. So I guess he was leading till Edgar voted for Pol.
Pippa didn't vote until the last minute.
Oh, I don't know for sure, if Pippa voted early for himself, but I thought so. Might be wrong, but would be a weird strategy by him, if he voted late for himself.
Fair enough, my bad. He almost tricked Aldo into a penalty shootout then
.Tough luck pippa. Should not have voted because some may have voted to draw it as usual.
Banging on about Rio did not help.
Banging on about Rio did not help.
Good game
He brought up the concept of Djukic being more uncomfortable when faced with pace and that it would be more likely to result in a goal for his team, in comparison to Ferdinand. Why wouldn't I point those cases out? Majority of those scenes are goals that occured because he was beaten by pace and/or strength, exactly what he tried to argue that happened to Ferdinand much less frequently than Djukic.
If he wasn't going to back up that claim with something substantial, it's just empty posturing.
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Fair enough, my bad. He almost tricked Aldo into a penalty shootout then
I voted to 11:9 in my favour with 3 minutes left, went away and I came back to this...
Zidane is man marked. All he can do in this match is burst towards free space and offer either a passing option for a 1-2.
I.e Gullit/Vieira press Redondo and Busquets - Zidane makes an explosive run, followed tightly by Desailly - a huge space is opened behind Gullit and Vieria who are both moving forward to minimize the space so Redondo avoids a last minute tackle from Vieira and passes it to Zidane then runs in behind Vieira now completely free and a chance is created.
Busquets and Redondo will use their brilliant passing and dribbling to abuse the pressure from Pippa and turn it in to a negative for Pippa. Desailly will rarely be centrally in the pitch so it will be Gullit+Vieira versus Redondo and Busquets - but Desailly will never be able to prevent Zidane from being a passing option.
The only thing Desailly will do is assure Zidane will rarely receive the ball - turn towards goal and act the play maker with no pressure.
Bale-Laudrup will run in between the defense and offense, or simply Eto'o and there will be yards of space in a very dangerous area. Bale has one of the best shots of football right now in those situations. Bale also played that central role for Tottenham, so Laudrup and him are comfortable in all those offensive positions.
I voted Pippa, but it was very close and I think man-marking Zidane was an error and so was it to have his full-backs follow Laudrup/Bale which would completely tear apart his formation and structure.
For me it was a very close game where Pippa had a higher individual level at his players - he also saved himself from a certain loss by moving Gullit down and Desailly up.
But I think Polaroid would be able to use those tactical mistakes enough to bag a couple of goals. It would be way to disorganized to completely shut out a team who would wreck havoc by drifting all over the pitch.