Redcafe Sheep Draft - Stobzilla vs antohan
- Thread starter Moby
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Was going to vote for Stobzilla but the Djemba Djemba faction turned the tables.
I've lost my mojo, should have posted some tripe and leave that beauty of an entrance for the new page 
RECAPPING
As we pass the 80th minute mark, Moyezilla leaves the stadium. We are told he couldn't stand the sight of Bergkamp and had even threatened to leave during the first half unless he was subbed off.
Cunning plan, but his rival had a different one and it all revolved around Yaya Toure. He started off brightly but soon had to take increasingly more strenuous defensive responsibilities and is now jogging around the pitch, a spent force.
Tha fans on the terrace are shouting "We want five, we want five", but with the game wrapped up and the other team effectively down to ten men, the waterboys have also started bleating relentlessly. They have done a fine job, could it be? The fans on the terraces look at their cnut of a manager everyone loves to hate and suddenly shut up...
"REALLY?"
"IS IT POSSIBLE?"
"COMING DOWN THE TUNNEL IN FULL GEAR?"
""
CAN YOU HEAR THE NOISE OF THE SIAMESE TWIN BOYS?
With five minutes + injury time to go, Dennis Bergkamp leaves the pitch getting a fully deserved standing ovation.
He thanks the fans for it.
And on comes the legend that is ERIC DJEMBA-DJEMBA
Epic comeback starts here.
Must say that I think Stobzilla was a bit unfairly downplayed. I thought he had a very competent team and thought he'd be one of the favorites. I guess it shows Antos experience and skill in the match-threads/tactics in these drafts.
Well done both of you and Stobzilla should get a lot of credit too. Would probably have made it through against most other sides.
Well done both of you and Stobzilla should get a lot of credit too. Would probably have made it through against most other sides.
Same, one of my favourite players of all time
@Annahnomoss
It is annoying, without going to deep it is why I don't post on football related topics in any great detail as well, I have a crippling fear of not being understood and I know I don't communicate thoughts and feelings well on a variety of topics when it comes to writing.
However, I can talk for England on football and if it was a 1 on 1 recorded Skype session I dare say I would do better. It isn't though, it is something I have to improve on if I want to do better in these drafts, I still feel I should have won this and if I could communicate better I think I could get others to see it like I see it.
Anyway, congrats to @antohan
It is annoying, without going to deep it is why I don't post on football related topics in any great detail as well, I have a crippling fear of not being understood and I know I don't communicate thoughts and feelings well on a variety of topics when it comes to writing.
However, I can talk for England on football and if it was a 1 on 1 recorded Skype session I dare say I would do better. It isn't though, it is something I have to improve on if I want to do better in these drafts, I still feel I should have won this and if I could communicate better I think I could get others to see it like I see it.
Anyway, congrats to @antohan
I think needing a RB and Johnny Kills were your problem here.
Aesthetically unpleasing as this XMAS tree is, I would have been far more worried about it. Mata wasn't making much difference creatively. Quality passing from midfield with the power of Weah and Yaya was your best bet IMO.
Aesthetically unpleasing as this XMAS tree is, I would have been far more worried about it. Mata wasn't making much difference creatively. Quality passing from midfield with the power of Weah and Yaya was your best bet IMO.
Firstly come on Annahmonoss you really need to calm down man – You were the one who kept mentioning the lists that you use to judge players so you shouldn’t get so defensive when it gets brought up. There isn’t really anything wrong at all with you looking at lists man but I think it’ll occasionally lead you to judge a player wrong – which is exactly what I suspected had happened here. Koeman would be up so high primarily for his ability on the ball rather than his raw defending so I think saying he would “be easily capable of handling” Weah/Van Persie is just way off the mark.
Not sure why your reply went into whether Koeman is a sweeper or a stopper – I was really only disagreeing with you when you said he could easily handle Weah and Van Persie. Do you not think the far superior movement and pace of the much quicker Weah would cause him problems? How about his aerial ability against the pinpoint crosses of Beckham into Van Persie, Weah and Yaya – all 6ft plus?
I just thought it was a very strange overrating off him. I mean, that front two would give Stam problems defensively and he’s without question a better 'defender' than Koeman.
XMAS tree is tricky in these drafts, I did it in the last one I was a part of and was getting crucified over the idea that Steven Gerrard wouldn't drift out wide when Roberto Carlos was presenting a danger on the over lap but still maintaining a presence in the middle when he had to.I think needing a RB and Johnny Kills were your problem here.
Aesthetically unpleasing as this XMAS tree is, I would have been far more worried about it. Mata wasn't making much difference creatively. Quality passing from midfield with the power of Weah and Yaya was your best bet IMO.
It simply would happen that way, but the problem with the drafts is that unless you go massively in depth with graphics everyone just assumes they are playing on train tracks.
An opportunity missed. Punchable face was too long so I went for ate orange. PUNCH ME would have been perfect
And Jaap should have read MEAT.
And Jaap should have read MEAT.
Has anto actually increased his lead since Djemba came on? Must be bossing the midfield...
If you read the thread you would have had your answer to it already. Brwned pointed it out and I further described what I meant to clarify it - then you come in a page later and say exactly what Brwned said.
Saying Koeman would easily handle Weah and RVP was more a by me poorly phrased version of "he is far from a defensive liability in a CB pairing against strikers of that quality.". A mistake by me most certainly and not accurate at all which Brwned pointed out and I agreed on.
Koeman was defensively good enough to play for one of the greater club sides in history as a lone CB. If you are anything near a defensive liability - you would never get to play in such an exposed role.
Would you be impressed if Bayern started playing with one CB and two full-backs while still remaining the best in Europe? What would that CB need to have to make it viable? Could he be poor defensively if he handles the best his era has to offer with great results?
Anyhow like I said all I wanted to get out is that Koeman is the most technically gifted stopper in history rather than a sweeper like Popescu/Baresi/Beckenbauer. So partnering him up with a sweeper is a great way to use him - even if you could play him next to a stopper if you wanted too. Personally I prefer him next to a defensively brilliant sweeper or a technically brilliant stopper.
Nah, it was 18-5 before he came on. He is bossing the midfield alright. One Djemba is taking Johnny Killer, the other is taking on a tired Yaya and Busquets is caught in headlights with both Schweinsteiger and Cocu free to push forward. Should have started this way, I'll tell you. Dennis who?
Game's over anyway.
Spot on, which is why I was rather reluctant to pick a stopper. It really was something that would be needed in a minority of games IMO.
Bit pissed off at the amount of flak Koeman has been getting while the oppo had Frank friggin' de Boer, who shared all his weaknesses and had nothing, not a single attribute, on Koeman. Something similar, but less simplistically, could be said about Blanc. Particularly when his organising of the defence was dealt with by Popescu here. Stam is indeed a better pure defender, but can't offer any of Koeman's outstanding attributes.
I'm completely forgot to vote 
. Sorry guys, doing my write-up and fighting a tactical battle in my game took too much time. I'll write a comment about the game later and share my opinions, both are quality teams and it definitely was an interesting game.
. Sorry guys, doing my write-up and fighting a tactical battle in my game took too much time. I'll write a comment about the game later and share my opinions, both are quality teams and it definitely was an interesting game.I don't think playing for a great side as a defender argument holds ground on its own. Pique part of great Barca team of recent years won't go down as a great defender at all even though he was very useful for their brand of football.
I agree with the thesis that playing for a great team doesn't mean you are great yourself. That is not my point at all, after all the dream team was built a lot around the abilities of Koeman from 89 until he had it lost it by 94-95 and got sold.
I think he suffers a bit from the Hierro-factor of being remembered for games when he wasn't peaking anymore - then getting judged from it.
Koeman was far from a liability in a team - he was solid and reliable defensively and also had the ability to win games for his team single handedly on a consistent basis with his passing.
I agree with Brwned and others who think he wasn't a one man defensive army at all, a very good defender who stood out more due to his passing and forward play which was essential to that Barca team.
Anyway if someone wants to have a laugh I'll repost the video I did earlier but had to delete as the draft was still going on. Here is their manager Cruyff refusing to recognize Koeman as a defender, let alone a top quality one. (at 1:45)
Anyway if someone wants to have a laugh I'll repost the video I did earlier but had to delete as the draft was still going on. Here is their manager Cruyff refusing to recognize Koeman as a defender, let alone a top quality one.
(at 1:45)It's actually a pretty interesting interview and he makes a lot of good points. Surely he exaggerated the point on Koeman and Pep, though.
That does, however, makes it clear what some are trying to say here that it's not ideal to expect a great defensive shift from Koeman, it is better to let him command the area and have one guy next to him concentrating on all the dirty work.
The thing that confuses me with Koeman as opposed to other sweepers is that is he actually capable of putting an out and out defensive shift is the situation demands it and there's someone else to handle the distribution, even if not to that level? Usually with sweepers like Scirea, Beckenbauer, Sammer etc I believe that while their best comes when they are allowed to influence and dominate the game with someone concentrating on defending alone next to them, if you give them that job itself, they would be great in that as well, except that it would take out a lot of what made them great and complete as players.
That does, however, makes it clear what some are trying to say here that it's not ideal to expect a great defensive shift from Koeman, it is better to let him command the area and have one guy next to him concentrating on all the dirty work.
The thing that confuses me with Koeman as opposed to other sweepers is that is he actually capable of putting an out and out defensive shift is the situation demands it and there's someone else to handle the distribution, even if not to that level? Usually with sweepers like Scirea, Beckenbauer, Sammer etc I believe that while their best comes when they are allowed to influence and dominate the game with someone concentrating on defending alone next to them, if you give them that job itself, they would be great in that as well, except that it would take out a lot of what made them great and complete as players.
This is my point as well. I am arguing against the people who said Koeman/Popescu is a defensive liability who can't play together because they are both sweepers.
Any lone playing CB will have to act like a stopper - because there is no player behind you. Meaning if you step forward and miss your interception then you instantly conceded a goal because there will be opponents behind you but no teammates.
Popescu on the other hand was a regular sweeper who stepped forward. This means they tactically form a stopper/sweeper combination. Of course one that is as possession/offense oriented as it gets.
The one inheriting the role to defend in front of the last defender was Guardiola. He had to intercept and defend in front of Koeman, but he did it by stepping down rather than stepping up.
Koeman is not up against the all-time great stoppers or CB's by any means, in fact he is one of the very finest stoppers in this draft. People seem to compare him to all-timers like Beckenbauer/Baresi/Moore/Figueroa when in fact his competition is the following drafted defenders:
(Terry/F. De Boer/Carvalho/Keown/Pallister/Patrick Andersson/Puyol etc etc)
Koemans defense is in this draft very solid and pretty unquestionable unless you want to start questioning almost every defense in the draft. Fortunately the strikers are also at the same level as the "weak" centre backs which balances everything out.
Instead of facing a Pele/Tostao or Maradona/Romario partnership - they are up against RVP/Weah or Aguero/Rush.
So should I believe you or the guy who managed Koeman?
Not sure if you watched the same interview? He stated that Koeman-Guardiola is a sufficient defensive pairing as it is all about metres(space) in the defense. He also stated everything he won using those two.So should I believe you or the guy who managed Koeman?
So lets assume he is right, Guardiola/Koeman are sufficient to win all those titles as a pairing. Then wouldn't adding the defensively much stronger Popescu then be even more defensively secure than the Guardiola/Koeman pairing which was part of one of the greater sides in history in the equivalent roles?
He also said if there are two individuals who cannot defend, they are Guardiola and Koeman...
In the context of "It is just about metres". Meaning if you have the correct defensive tactics where Koeman/Guardiola are defending a narrow area, then they are perfectly good enough to defend.
So this very same area would of course be even more protected when Koeman is next to Popescu and not Guardiola. So if Antohan uses this dream-team tactic of "folding in narrowly" - Koeman and Popescu would be sufficient defensively and not a liability - as per stated by Cruyff.
If he however lets them loose to defend a big amount of space - then they are not sufficient? Which means whether Koeman/Popescu are solid or not, is about Antohans decision on how to use them?
If he follows Cruyffs advice - they are in fact solid?
Antohan is the best person to answer that, he's the expert on that dream team but he was puzzled by Cruyff's remarks as well.
It is about the defensive tactics of the whole team which Cruyff is on about, imo, not just two players he mentioned so if anto's team can actually emulate that similarly and allow Koeman that comfort he needed, I'll let him decide that.
It is anyway a one liner from the dutch nutter, so let's not consider it the word of the bible. For all we know he didn't mean a single word of it.
It is about the defensive tactics of the whole team which Cruyff is on about, imo, not just two players he mentioned so if anto's team can actually emulate that similarly and allow Koeman that comfort he needed, I'll let him decide that.
It is anyway a one liner from the dutch nutter, so let's not consider it the word of the bible. For all we know he didn't mean a single word of it.
Fair enough, then we seem to agree on it all.Antohan is the best person to answer that, he's the expert on that dream team but he was puzzled by Cruyff's remarks as well.
It is about the defensive tactics of the whole team which Cruyff is on about, imo, not just two players he mentioned so if anto's team can actually emulate that similarly and allow Koeman that comfort he needed, I'll let him decide that.
It is anyway a one liner from the dutch nutter, so let's not consider it the word of the bible. For all we know he didn't mean a single word of it.
Of course he highly exaggerates their defense abilities to prove a tactical point in how he thinks the (then) current dutch manager should improve his tactics.
His statement is more "This is how I managed to turn Guardiola/Koeman in to a solid defense for a great team by using these tactics".
Mate, it's Cruyff. His opinions on players are on par with Pele at times. E.g. all that nonsense about how Laudrup would be a better player had he grown up in poverty in a Brazilian slum. Yeah, because that doesn't have drawbacks...
That was epic, seriously.Mate, it's Cruyff. His opinions on players are on par with Pele at times. E.g. all that nonsense about how Laudrup would be a better player had he grown up in poverty in a Brazilian slum. Yeah, because that doesn't have drawbacks...
Whatever he smoked before saying that must have been really good stuff!
Anto's put together a really exciting side here. Those two wingers with Bergkamp feeding them is ridiculous.