Redcafe Sheep Draft - Stobzilla vs antohan

[antohan]

Sorry for the green lad, man - I just knew you would bite, that's all. I wasn't being 100% serious. But give me Weah over Cavani any day - I'm serious about that.

I had noticed during drafting you mentioned some weren't proven, I presumed it was the younger ones though.

I wouldn't take Weah ahead of him though. One of Weah's most striking features was that Eusebio quality of dropping deep in midfield and going on a run from there. I don't need/want that, I want Bergkamp and the wingers to service a proven goalscorer, not a striker who can create chances for himself because everyone else is too busy defending.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Feck. Now Anto will tear my already threadbare team to pieces tomorrow.

Well,

Can't disagree with that opinion. In an all time draft I would consider him as a weakness in a Koeman+Sweeper combination as the amount of available quality stoppers are so high.

In this draft however I think he is good enough not to be pointed out as a weakness next to a sweeper - if that makes sense? I think if it wasn't for the confusion people have thinking Koeman is a sweeper then I think people wouldn't consider him a weakness by any means.

Of course he would still not form the best CB partnership in this draft in terms of defensive stability - but I think it gets quite unfair on Anto when people bring it up as a pure weakness or something completely out of order.

It clearly isn't out of order. And Anto also makes an overall point about the passing ability of these players, which is compelling when considering their, again, overall contribution.

I agree with your all time point. In that context Koeman's purely defensive capabilities would be too slender and you would have to team him up with a real killer. But this isn't that context. When I look at all these teams I spot players here and there that strictly speaking have glaring weaknesses compared to the regulars we saw in the last draft, for instance.

 

[antohan]

In this draft however I think he is good enough not to be pointed out as a weakness next to a sweeper - if that makes sense? I think if it wasn't for the confusion people have thinking Koeman is a sweeper then I think people wouldn't consider him a weakness by any means.

Yeah, one issue I actually had when looking at stoppers was Koeman wouldn't do a Popescu and charge forward into midfield or systematically come out to pick the second striker when he goes deep, so it felt like I was condemning myself to always having two chaps staying at the back. Now I have both I could always pick and choose. In this game I would play Koeman + stopper, others it would be Popescu + stopper and others the stopper would be benched altogether.

 

[antohan]

Feck. Now Anto will tear my already threadbare team to pieces tomorrow.

Not really, I'm quite looking forward to it. Read your profiles and it all looks quite intriguing. I've been looking forward to how you piece them all together.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Feck. Now Anto will tear my already threadbare team to pieces tomorrow.

Well,


It clearly isn't out of order. And Anto also makes an overall point about the passing ability of these players, which is compelling when considering their, again, overall contribution.

I agree with your all time point. In that context Koeman's purely defensive capabilities would be too slender and you would have to team him up with a real killer. But this isn't that context. When I look at all these teams I spot players here and there that strictly speaking have glaring weaknesses compared to the regulars we saw in the last draft, for instance.

The last draft had a much bigger pool of talent considering it was an "all-time" draft as well as this being a sheep-draft which means you couldn't just pick the best players.

Koeman as a defender is much closer to being an all-time best than the majority of strikers in this draft are. RVP/Cavani/Weah are all far from being the all time best strikers in history though, so even if Koeman's strength wouldn't be the defensive aspect of the game - he is still easily capable of handling these "non-all timers" quality.

Against the likes of Messi/Ronaldo/Pele/Maradona/Cruyff you really need that extra ounce of defensive perfection prioritized ahead of the defenders ability on the ball. But against Cavani/Weah/RVP it is just a completely different level of strikers.

I think it gets a tad bit exaggerated when Koemans defensive abilities are considered too weak to deal with RVP and Weah. Especially when he handled quality of that level throughout his entire peak and did so well that his Barca Dream team is still today considered one of the greater club sides in history.

 

[antohan]

Oi, Annah, stop putting Edi down

It's a fair and valid point though.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The last draft had a much bigger pool of talent considering it was an "all-time" draft as well as this being a sheep-draft which means you couldn't just pick the best players.

Koeman as a defender is much closer to being an all-time best than the majority of strikers in this draft are. RVP/Cavani/Weah are all far from being the all time best strikers in history though, so even if Koeman's strength wouldn't be the defensive aspect of the game - he is still easily capable of handling these "non-all timers" quality.

Against the likes of Messi/Ronaldo/Pele/Maradona/Cruyff you really need that extra ounce of defensive perfection prioritized ahead of the defenders ability on the ball. But against Cavani/Weah/RVP it is just a completely different level of strikers.

True. None of 'em are fit to lace the boots of Lineker. At least not Lineker with pigtails. And he will play with pigtails for me. That is a clear instruction. Larsson with dreads - Lineker with pigtails.

 

[Annahnomoss]

You guys. Clowning during such a serious occasion!

Considering I have been so one sided in this thread pro-Anto I just want to say that I personally see Beckham and Mihailovic as nearly the optimal way to provide width that really stretches the field. I like the formation and tactic in general and don't see any flaws with it except that playing two strikers of course means there is one less body in the defense or midfield battle.

The question then is if this second striker adds more than a potential 4th defender or another AM.

 

[Brwned]

Koeman as a defender is much closer to being an all-time best than the majority of strikers in this draft are. RVP/Cavani/Weah are all far from being the all time best strikers in history though, so even if Koeman's strength wouldn't be the defensive aspect of the game - he is still easily capable of handling these "non-all timers" quality.

You see, I don't agree with this at all. Or this:

That was the entire idea of the dream team. Koeman regardless of not being very pacey managed to play that exact role in one of the best club teams of history. He is himself rated extremely highly as well and I dont think there are five better players in history in the "lone CB" role.

The other four would certainly not be in this draft and no other defender would be better for the role in this draft. Koeman played against top top quality players of that era and it worked.

In that Holland-Brazil '94 match he was up against Bebeto-Romario which is admittedly a level above what's on offer here, but it did display his shortcomings. In the CL final just a few months earlier that Milan team with Massaro leading the line managed to make light work of Koeman and co. And of course Koeman played against Weah a year later when PSG knocked Barca out of the Champions League and he didn't find it easy at all. I agree he's not a weakness but to suggest he's easily capable of handling RvP-Weah is a massive exaggeration for my money.

 

[Annahnomoss]

You see, I don't agree with this at all. Or this:



In that Holland-Brazil '94 match he was up against Bebeto-Romario which is admittedly a level above what's on offer here, but it did display his shortcomings. In the CL final just a few months earlier that Milan team with Massaro leading the line managed to make light work of Koeman and co. And of course Koeman played against Weah a year later when PSG knocked Barca out of the Champions League and he didn't find it easy at all. I agree he's not a weakness but to suggest he's easily capable of handling RvP-Weah is a massive exaggeration for my money.

That is fair enough my mistake, I meant it more as in Popescu/Koeman are good enough to handle the quality at stake without being liabilities by any means. I just think that if we want to criticize every part of every team that is equal or worse in quality than this pairing - then we will criticize pretty much every part of every team.

I think it is a bit harsh on Koeman to take his performances of '94 in to account without also mentioning he was not peaking by any means at that time and just a year later left Barcelona because he could no longer hack it. Your point of course remains valid as even in his peak someone like Romario/Ronaldo could make his life very hard as a stopper.

 

[antohan]

You guys. Clowning during such a serious occasion!

Considering I have been so one sided in this thread pro-Anto I just want to say that I personally see Beckham and Mihailovic as nearly the optimal way to provide width that really stretches the field. I like the formation and tactic in general and don't see any flaws with it except that playing two strikers of course means there is one less body in the defense or midfield battle.

The question then is if this second striker adds more than a potential 4th defender or another AM.

I mulled over it last night, particularly considering Becks needing a fullback. Stob has Brown on the bench and a back four of Brown-Blanc-Stam-de Boer would be much better suited to deal with my frontline, while also giving Becks that much needed supoort on the flank to avoid Brehme shackling him.

The problem then is who to drop. It's a difficult one because with Busquets better suited to drop back you would want someone else through the middle alongside Yaya, and Mata is better suited to that but the weakest player in his front three.

Ask Weah to do a support striker/transitioning role? Most people don't see Weah that way though, they imagine him more as the "goalscoring machine" Stob described. RvP as the link? That could work, but in practice he is the better player to have in the box.

Mindfeck really because clearly the personnel wasn't picked with 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 in mind.

PS: I disagree those two are the optimal way to stretch a field. As I pointed out earlier, the beauty with us in 99 was having two formulas to stretch, the wing wizard on the left and Becks' delivery on the right. Much, much more powerful.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I think Stobs team is much more like a 5-3-2 than a 4-4-2 in terms of each players role. He will primarily attack centrally in my eyes and Beckham and Mihailovic will want to stretch the defense to allow the space needed centrally.

You can't then fold in very narrowly because Beckham and Mihailovic would thrive if allowed to find crosses in to even a packed box.

Not saying anybody wins because of those reasons, just stating that I can see the intended use of Mihailovic and Beckham functioning offensively. The only issue I have is that I would have loved a 4-4-1-1 in the defense instead of a 3-5-2 there too. If Brown had played on the right side then Mihailovic could have dropped down to form a defensive 4 in the defense.

 

[antohan]

Not saying anybody wins because of those reasons, just stating that I can see the intended use of Mihailovic and Beckham functioning offensively. The only issue I have is that I would have loved a 4-4-1-1 in the defense instead of a 3-5-2 there too. If Brown had played on the right side then Mihailovic could have dropped down to form a defensive 4 in the defense.

That's the issue, he has the players at the back for a strong back four and better supporting Beckham but the rest of his midfield/attack can't conform a credible/competitive 4-4-1-1. I would have loved it as it could have been perfect for Popescu to be at his very best.

 

[Gio]

I don't think Koeman was anything like a top class centre back who was this one-man defence capable of nullifying even the best forwards. He's somewhere between a good and very good defender with an exceptional passing range for me.

If you look at Holland v Brazil he's the passenger in that defence, not this one-man brick wall marshalling everything around him. The same is true against Barcelona in the 4-0 loss, the same is true against almost every top class attacking team he came up against at the top level.

That's my take on him. Incomparable on the ball, often exposed by the very best strikers.

 

[antohan]

I'm positively stunned at how there has been no love for Bergkamp here. Maybe you erased your memories? Or just consciously mindblocked yourselves all along?

Since the clips earlier may have been rather long, I'll narrow it all down to one goal and one assist vs. barcode shirted sides.

Goal

Assist

 

[antohan]

That's my take on him. Incomparable on the ball, often exposed by the very best strikers.

As Annah pointed out earlier, he was past it then. Still, as I mentioned on the thread, he wasn't at all comfortable being left solo against tricky explosive strikers. Barca's setup didn't help matters at all with two bombing fullbacks I've improved on with Brehme and Sagnol, and better protection in Schweini and Cocu. Even then, you would watch him being left all by himself against certain strikers and you knew it was a goal waiting to happen, particularly if he pushed up (which is why I'd be far more comfortable with Popescu doing that).

 

[Theon]

I agree that the sweeper-sweeper issue is overplayed but the idea that Koeman stayed back in defence is well wide of the mark, IMO. He went forward plenty. I've no doubt he would sit back if necessary though, but the issue for me is less to do with style and more to do with the fact I don't think Koeman was anything like a top class centre back who was this one-man defence capable of nullifying even the best forwards. He's somewhere between a good and very good defender with an exceptional passing range for me.

If you look at Holland v Brazil he's the passenger in that defence, not this one-man brick wall marshalling everything around him. The same is true against Barcelona in the 4-0 loss, the same is true against almost every top class attacking team he came up against at the top level.

Great post Brwned. Agree with all of it.

The fact that he played as one centre back at times for Barca really does boost him up in peoples estimations I think. You kind of assume he must be this defensive colossus and paring him with another CB would make him even better when of course it doesn't/didn't work like that.

Koeman as a defender is much closer to being an all-time best than the majority of strikers in this draft are. RVP/Cavani/Weah are all far from being the all time best strikers in history though, so even if Koeman's strength wouldn't be the defensive aspect of the game - he is still easily capable of handling these "non-all timers" quality.

You are really overrated Koeman defensively and this is just far over the top.

Maybe I'm off here but I really dislike the language you use here as well - this 'being close to all-time quality' nonsense. It makes me think of the last all-time draft when you kept bringing up different lists you had found online as the basis for your opinion, which is a terrible way of assessing anything.

I don't want to be harsh here, but the way this reads to me - baring in mind the reliance you've placed on lists previously - is like this, "Koeman is rated as the 36th best centre back and Van Persie doesn't make the top 100 strikers so he must be able to handle him easily".

But anyway, as Brwned said it really wouldn't be as black and white as that and a top two of Van Persie and Weah would cause better defenders than Koeman problems. How would he cope with the far superior movement and speed of Weah? Koeman lacked pace.

I really see one of the biggest threats for Stobz as being the exceptional crossing of Beckham - United have really screwed him here though, there really isn't a more unfashionable or disliked tactics on this forum than crossing at the moment but when used properly by someone like Beckham its absolutely deadly.

Do you think Koeman was great in the air? Because he faces a huge task here.

Weah is 6ft 1, Van Persie 6ft 2, Yaya Toure breaking into the box is 6 ft 3... The idea that there is no threat here is silly IMO.

 

[Moby]

I've thought about this game 4-5 times but just cannot separate them.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I mentioned it in the tactics but it seems to have been ignored. Gaz was a big part of Beckham, he is not someone with pace or who will get past a man, he relied on the overlapping fullback to do that. Without him, while he has a great engine and won't be immobile, he is effectively a sitting duck for someone like Brehme. Can't see him having much joy at all.

I don't understand what you are getting at, care to elaborate?

I was thinking even with Brehme, with Beckham's ability to drift to middle too, he will cross, but yes, you are right on Brehme. Will mitigate that to a big extent.


@stob,

I would have preferred Busquets and Yaya to be swapped. Mihjalovic can defend better than Beckham and Yaya there spreads your going forward options there. With Beckham considered a defensive lightweight, having Busquets there might help. Makes more sense as Yaya runs will counter by Schweini and not by a more defensive Cocu.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Seems a very butthurt response Theon from the last draft.

If two people have differing opinions in a matter and are having an argument which is supposed to be as unbiased as possible to reach the truth as opposed to a war to defend ones opinion. Then the use of quotes/articles from journalists/managers/players/experts as well as ratings from the rare few lists that exists - the other forum members opinions and longer highlight videos - are the means to achieve that discussion.

I have never said that "because player X is 13th in this list he is automatically better than number 14". That would be ridiculous. But if I state that say Leonidas was in fact rated very highly in Brazil - then provide lists/rankings, quotes, newspapers who includes him in the all time eleven - then everything together hopefully adds an important unbiased part of the puzzle.

I don't consider ratings in lists more important than I consider the opinion of someone who lived to witness Leonidas play. But neither would I say that rankings are pointless, as I think every educated opinion is worth taking in to account.


Regarding Koeman, I have already stated several times that he isn't the best stopper in history defensively - or anywhere near it. All I have said is that I think Koeman is at a level defensively which would suffice against the likes of Weah/RVP but not against the likes of Ronaldo/Messi/Romario unless he is partnered with an incredible stopper next to him.

In my eyes the only reason people are deciding to highlight Koeman/Popescu as a weakness/liability is that there is a misconception regarding both of them being sweepers - and people consider that an instant failure in these drafts.

All I wanted to highlight is that Koeman is not limited to be a sweeper, he played "the last man"/"the stopper" at the highest level. His great ability on the ball makes people assume he was a pure sweeper who tried to push forward in front of his CB partner when in fact he more often did the stopper-role in Barca(even if he did both at occasions).

I don't really care how people rate Koeman defensively as the stopper, not at all, people will all rate him differently in those terms. But it is not accurate to say Anto built a completely imbalanced sweeper-sweeper central defense.

Balance wise there is no issues, which is all I want to get out.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

In my eyes the only reason people are deciding to highlight Koeman/Popescu as a weakness/liability is that there is a misconception regarding both of them being sweepers - and people consider that an instant failure in these drafts.

This is a great point imo, people tend to forget who the opponent have, Mata as much as I like him will probably won't appear in an all time draft, while in this draft he isn't for a minute look as a weakness. I feel Nikopolidis in my team is having the same problem, same goes with Alexis

 

[Moby]

I don't consider ratings in lists more important than I consider the opinion of someone who lived to witness Leonidas play. But neither would I say that rankings are pointless, as I think every educated opinion is worth taking in to account.

I hope you are not referring to the xtratime lists, there. As I told you earlier simply forget about them, they have no basis behind them, absolutely nothing, zilch. I know the people who made each and every one of them, (the account Dearman), it was a troll account managed by 6 people and all that was done to gain popularity on the forum. Forget well educated opinion, that's not even an opinion.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I hope you are not referring to the xtratime lists, there. As I told you earlier simply forget about them, they have no basis behind them, absolutely nothing, zilch. I know the people who made each and every one of them, (the account Dearman), it was a troll account managed by 6 people and all that was done to gain popularity on the forum. Forget well educated opinion, that's not even an opinion.

Laughed quite hard when you told me that. They must have put so much effort for no reason in to those lists as it is not just randomly making lists - but thousands and thousands of posts.

 

[Moby]

Laughed quite hard when you told me that. They must have put so much effort for no reason in to those lists as it is not just randomly making lists - but thousands and thousands of posts.

Yeah well you'd imagine that a group of people who makes a fake account on a random forum would have plenty of time on their hand to do stuff like this.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Yeah well you'd imagine that a group of people who makes a fake account on a random forum would have plenty of time on their hand to do stuff like this.

They must have spent years working on that shit to be popular on a forum?

 

[Moby]

They must have spent years working on that shit to be popular on a forum?

It was around a couple of years yeah.

They got busted when a couple of them told different stories about the background, where they came from etc from the same account and since then it has been used really less frequently.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Mindfeck really because clearly the personnel wasn't picked with 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 in mind.

A diamond, with both Becks and Mata capapble of interchanging positions.

------RvP-----------Weah---
-------------Mata--------------
---Toure--------------Becks---
-----------Busquets---------
-----------Back 4-----------

or even a counter 4-2-3-1

-----------Rvp/Weah---------
Mihlajovic---Mata--Becks
----Busquets--Toure-----
-----------Back 4-----------


or a 4-3-3

---RvP ----- Mata---- Becks--
Mihlajovic-Busquets-Toure
-----------Back 4-----------

 

[antohan]

A diamond, with both Becks and Mata capapble of interchanging positions.

------RvP-----------Weah---
-------------Mata--------------
---Toure--------------Becks---
-----------Busquets---------
-----------Back 4-----------

or even a counter 4-2-3-1

-----------Rvp/Weah---------
Mihlajovic---Mata--Becks
----Busquets--Toure-----
-----------Back 4-----------


or a 4-3-3

---RvP ----- Mata---- Becks--
Mihlajovic-Busquets-Toure
-----------Back 4-----------

The last two are clearly a car crash. The diamond could be interesting. Suboptimal, but interesting. Crossing takes a big knock though and the fullbacks are not ideal to run the flank. But I find the idea of Becks in a diamond quite intriguing... may be worth discussing that specifically.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

The last two are clearly a car crash. The diamond could be interesting. Suboptimal, but interesting. Crossing takes a big knock though and the fullbacks are not ideal to run the flank. But I find the idea of Becks in a diamond quite intriguing... may be worth discussing that specifically.

Yup, In order of viability. Though I think the 4-2-3-1 is not a car crash, just a bit more discipline from Yaya and its a go. The 4-3-3 was just a afterthough thrown in.

Beckham is an interesting possibility here. Say he had Wes Brown here or ideally Lahm/Cafu behind him, it gives him a role able to drift out wide or keep in middle. With Mata also able to interchage, their movment will pull defenders apart...space of Yaya to exploit.

 

[antohan]

Yup, In order of viability. Though I think the 4-2-3-1 is not a car crash, just a bit more discipline from Yaya and its a go. The 4-3-3 was just a afterthough thrown in.

Yaya? I was far more concerned about Becks and Mihajlovic as wingers.

Beckham is an interesting possibility here. Say he had Wes Brown here or ideally Lahm/Cafu behind him, it gives him a role able to drift out wide or keep in middle. With Mata also able to interchage, their movment will pull defenders apart...space of Yaya to exploit.

Yaya is the one I don't think could actually pull off that diamond. It requires tactical discipline, selflessness and an incredible engine. That's not really Yaya to me. Becks on the other hand... I'm actually really intrigued, maybe that's the sort of centre midfield role (we know how adamant he was he wanted to play there) which would have played to his strengths: right side of a diamond.

There's still 2-3 players who look out of place and, frankly, I think the current setup is better.

--------RvP-----------------
---------------Weah-------
Miha--Yaya---Busi--Becks
Boer--Stam--Larry-Orange
-----------Lemon

That doesn't strike you as particularly inspired, but I reckon it's Stobz' best possible lineup.

 

[Jayvin]

Lemon and Nazi

 

[antohan]

And amid all this constant arguing about defensive pairs and whatnot...

The Forgotten One

At 15-5, it doesn't look like I need votes, but I'm not having him getting no love

Do I need @peterstorey @Eboue @Grinner @Donaldo @alastair for anyone to look like they give a shit?

 

[sajeev]

i love bergkamp, and rate him very highly. loved him even when he was at arsenal. i would rate him higher than henry but that is just me

 

[Stobzilla]

Utter rakeing.

I'm waving it off. Well done Anto.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

This is a great point imo, people tend to forget who the opponent have, Mata as much as I like him will probably won't appear in an all time draft, while in this draft he isn't for a minute look as a weakness. I feel Nikopolidis in my team is having the same problem, same goes with Alexis

wait, wut? We've now moved from Koeman to Nikopolidis

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

wait, wut? We've now moved from Koeman to Nikopolidis

Not saying they're the same level or close to it don't get me wrong, I'm saying that the standards for this draft are a bit different from other drafts, for example in this draft Koeman can count as a brilliant CB and Nikopoidis as a fine GK, where in other drafts they will count as a good CB and a weak GK.

 

[antohan]

Utter rakeing.

I'm waving it off. Well done Anto.

Get well mate.

 

[antohan]

As we pass the 80th minute mark, Moyezilla leaves the stadium. We are told he couldn't stand the sight of Bergkamp and had even threatened to leave during the first half unless he was subbed off.

Cunning plan, but his rival had a different one and it all revolved around Yaya Toure. He started off brightly but soon had to take increasingly more strenuous defensive responsibilities and is now jogging around the pitch, a spent force.

Tha fans on the terrace are shouting "We want five, we want five", but with the game wrapped up and the other team effectively down to ten men, the waterboys have also started bleating relentlessly. They have done a fine job, could it be? The fans on the terraces look at their cnut of a manager everyone loves to hate and suddenly shut up...

"REALLY?"

"IS IT POSSIBLE?"

"COMING DOWN THE TUNNEL IN FULL GEAR?"

" "

CAN YOU HEAR THE NOISE OF THE SIAMESE TWIN BOYS?​

 

[antohan]

With five minutes + injury time to go, Dennis Bergkamp leaves the pitch getting a fully deserved standing ovation.

He thanks the fans for it.

And on comes the legend that is ERIC DJEMBA-DJEMBA

 

[antohan]

@AldoPaine18

Them twins couldn't even get their party hats in the right order