Redcafe Sheep Draft - Stobzilla vs antohan

[antohan]

Don't agree naturally but there is a big gaping hole to exploit if Brehme is going to be bombing forward, all Mata has to do is drift into it and Beckham can find him.

That's where the point I made about both Schweini and Cocu being experienced on the flanks comes in. If Mata is on that side (in front of the box-to-box player?) then Cocu, an adept left midfielder can track him wide. That's the entire point with CMs who are comfortable out wide.

Carrick/Scholes are used to setups whereby they backtrack keeping the shape and have zonal jobs whereby they show people charging centrally onto the flank, but then hand over the job to the fullback/tracking winger. That's what they always did, covering the flank isn't their job but someone elses, if the guy persists on running through centrally they tackle (clumsily or not) but generally they try dissuade onto another less dangerous area. Cocu instead will be acquainted with tracking his man onto the flank if needs be.

 

[Stobzilla]

That's where the point I made about both Schweini and Cocu being experienced on the flanks comes in. If Mata is on that side (in front of the box-to-box player?) then Cocu, an adept left midfielder can track him wide. That's the entire point with CMs who are comfortable out wide.

Carrick/Scholes are used to setups whereby they backtrack keeping the shape and have zonal jobs whereby they show people charging centrally onto the flank, but then hand over the job to the fullback/tracking winger. That's what they always did, covering the flank isn't their job but someone elses, if the guy persists on running through centrally they tackle (clumsily or not) but generally they try dissuade onto another less dangerous area. Cocu instead will be acquainted with tracking his man onto the flank if needs be.

Fair enough, it'd be much easier for my money of you had someone picking Mata up between the lines, would Cocu or Schwieni not be inclined to support the attacks ?

 

[antohan]

So Mihajlovic is going to sit on the half way line the entire game when we go forwards and only move to chase Sagnol back ?

I'll give you Sagnol tucking in in that case, all Sinisa needs is to be 25-30 yards away from the by-line, if you aren't going to him he's waving his wand of a left foot in the open. Quite happy with that.

You said yourself before that he would be more of a left midfielder than a wingback and crossing from deep. Robben is on him and the further forward he ventures the bigger the distance he leaves for Robben to build up a sizeable advantage over him on the break. It's common sense that he will stay reasonably cautious.

 

[Stobzilla]

You said yourself before that he would be more of a left midfielder than a wingback and crossing from deep. Robben is on him and the further forward he ventures the bigger the distance he leaves for Robben to build up a sizeable advantage over him on the break. It's common sense that he will stay reasonably cautious.

Indeed, it would take a lot out of Robben though, it may be worth venturing forward a few times as Robben isn't exactly famed for either his stamina or willingness to get back quickly.

 

[antohan]

Fair enough, it'd be much easier for my money of you had someone picking Mata up between the lines, would Cocu or Schwieni not be inclined to support the attacks ?

No, I mentioned this before on the main thread. Their job, just like Scholes' and Carrick's for us in the past, is to stay in midfield dictating and providing an option to pass back and redistribute when a move looks like breaking down. On the break it's the front four and fullbacks pushing forward and if your defence regroups effectively and there's no immediate breakthrough on then you keep the possession and "recalculate".

 

[antohan]

Indeed, it would take a lot out of Robben though, it may be worth venturing forward a few times as Robben isn't exactly famed for either his stamina or willingness to get back quickly.

And in those cases Sagnol can come wide and deal with it. He may get a cross in every now and then, sure. Tough shit, that's how football works, it's not a constant deadlock just because everyone "has a job/man".

It's the same at the other end, sometimes your outside CBs will get beaten by my wingers. We know they will. Difference is, you are in a much more precarious situation when that happens.

 

[Stobzilla]

I don't think so, Busquets drops in nicely and Yaya is always working back so I think we have both around the same amount to be worried about.

 

[antohan]

One thing that is likely to be completely overlooked here is that all these crosses from deep can be defended effectively against. You can literally see them coming from a mile away. What better then than a goalie who expertly dealt with them and, incidentally, spent three years training alongside Weah so will know everything about him.


Would you really be that worried about them crosses? I'm not.

 

[antohan]

I don't think so, Busquets drops in nicely and Yaya is always working back so I think we have both around the same amount to be worried about.

He better do, who's looking after Bergkamp otherwise? Yaya... well, we've seen how effective it can be to rely on him putting much of a defensive shift, he'll run out of gas. Brilliant for me though. In practice, I don't expect him to do much else than keep tabs on Cocu/Schweini when I'm in possession, so I'm not counting on him running out of steam. Can't have your cake and eat it though.

 

[antohan]

Enough about how I go about defending against Moyezilla's tactics.

The elephant in the room here is Dennis fecking Bergkamp. He's the best player on the park, by a distance, and will destroy them.

See how he effortlessly creates chances left, right and centre:

Or how he can go about finishing on his own:

 

[Stobzilla]

One thing that is likely to be completely overlooked here is that all these crosses from deep can be defended effectively against. You can literally see them coming from a mile away. What better then than a goalie who expertly dealt with them and, incidentally, spent three years training alongside Weah so will know everything about him.


Would you really be that worried about them crosses? I'm not.

Bit different when it's Beckham though....

 

[Stobzilla]

 

[Stobzilla]

Enough about how I go about defending against Moyezilla's tactics.

The elephant in the room here is Dennis fecking Bergkamp. He's the best player on the park, by a distance, and will destroy them.

Urgh, your playing by yourself if your doing that.

 

[antohan]

I'm not at all disputing Becks' passing ability, but without an overlapping fullback to play off he is in a more precarious position than usual. Add Andreas Brehme patrolling that flank and he is really not going to have much of an impact.

The beauty with United in 99 was that whenever a team found a way to deal with that and the occasional crosses that would slip through effectively, they still had to contend with a rather different but perilous issue: Giggs down the other wing. You don't have that.

 

[Stobzilla]

I'm not at all disputing his passing ability, but without an overlapping fullback to play off he is in a more precarious position than usual. Ad Andreas Brehme patrolling that flank and he is really not going to have much of an impact.

The beauty with United in 99 was that whenever a team found a way to deal with that and the occasional crosses that would slip through effectively, they still had to contend with a rather different but perilous issue: Giggs down the other wing. You don't have that.

Maybe not on the other wing but my middle three are a potent threat. And can control possession as they see fit to.

 

[Gio]

An interesting match-up, a lot closer than I'd anticipated.

• I like the Blanc / Busquets combination. Should enable the Frenchman to swagger into midfield. Same goes for Cocu dropping in for Koeman or Popescu (although not quite as neatly).
• Crosses from Beckham, De Boer and Mihajlovic will create problems for not the most physically imposing central defensive partnership I've ever seen. Especially with Weah around.
• Robben hunting down the Mihajlovic, De Boer, Blanc axis. There is a serious lack of pace in that area of the park for Stobz. In fairness all three made top-level careers out of their defensive reading of the game, while De Boer won't be isolated given the savviness of his supporting players.
• Brehme overlapping to catch out Beckham. I mind Neil McCann catching out Beckham time and time again when Keegan played 3-5-2 for England. I can see Stam doing a good job of covering, but I would be concerned regarding Yaya Toure's capacity to put out fires down by his corner flag.

 

[antohan]

• I like the Blanc / Busquets combination. Should enable the Frenchman to swagger into midfield. Same goes for Cocu dropping in for Koeman or Popescu (although not quite as neatly).

It's an option, but not for this game, more likely one where Cocu operated as a pivot.

• Crosses from Beckham, De Boer and Mihajlovic will create problems for not the most physically imposing central defensive partnership I've ever seen. Especially with Weah around.

Which is why I stress the joint mitigating factors of cutting at source and a keeper who was tremendous at coming out to intercept crosses.

• Robben hunting down the Mihajlovic, De Boer, Blanc axis. There is a serious lack of pace in that area of the park for Stobz. In fairness all three made top-level careers out of their defensive reading of the game, while De Boer won't be isolated given the savviness of his supporting players.

You are forgetting Sagnol, and Cavani's aerial threat. Agree on de Boer though, he will be better suited to this role than Stam at the other end I think.

• Brehme overlapping to catch out Beckham. I mind Neil McCann catching out Beckham time and time again when Keegan played 3-5-2 for England. I can see Stam doing a good job of covering, but I would be concerned regarding Yaya Toure's capacity to put out fires down by his corner flag.

So Brehme beats Becks, Stam does a good job of covering... and who's on Ginola? And what does Blanc do then? Cover Stam? Who's got Cavani then?

The moment you agree Becks/Mihajlovic are bound to get beaten regularly you are admitting I have a 2v1 on the covering outside CB, which amounts to being up shit creek without a paddle.

 

[antohan]

Urgh, your playing by yourself if your doing that.

Only just saw this. You mean praising Bergkamp? Go away then because I sure will and bloody hope others will appreciate the best player on the pitch.

No need to go caveman on rivalries here. I know where you are coming from, but I was pleasantly surprised revisiting him and his linkups with Henry, Pires and Ljungberg. Sure, used to hate their guts back then, but now I actually feel pretty pleased we were once not only able to compete with that level of football but actually beat them to the league more often than not.

Sort of "we weren't always this shit"

Another thing I've noticed in this draft is people don't seem as bothered about whether midfielders are ball-winners or creative players so long as they are any good at something. I blame Tom Cleverley.

 

[Balu]

Another thing I've noticed in this draft is people don't seem as bothered about whether midfielders are ball-winners or creative players so long as they are any good at something. I blame Tom Cleverley.

 

[Brwned]

Anyone else think suggesting Robben is taking care of Mihajlovic is a bit of a stretch? I can see him keeping him pinned back a lot of the time and forcing him to essentially act as a left back, but that graphic with Robben on Mihajlovic doesn't seem right to me. Robben's been a defensive liability for most of his career.

 

[antohan]

Anyone else think suggesting Robben is taking care of Mihajlovic is a bit of a stretch? I can see him keeping him pinned back a lot of the time and forcing him to essentially act as a left back, but that graphic with Robben on Mihajlovic doesn't seem right to me. Robben's been a defensive liability for most of his career.

He's turned the corner recently though. I agree he wouldn't track Mihajlovic all the way to the corner flag but keeping tabs on him deeper? It isn't a stretch really. The question then becomes whether Mihajlovic wouldn't come forward to lose that mark and there's an entirely different consideration there which has nothing to do wth Robben's defensive input: the further forward he comes the more of a headstart he gives Robben. Even if Robben stayed on him he would be giving him a longer distance over which to leave him for dead and entirely out of the equation.

As I said earlier, if Mihajlovic really pushed forward then Sagnol would certainly pick that up, but I do expect Mihajlovic to get a few crosses in here and there from 30 yards out. Just the same way you would expect Brehme and Sagnol to get crosses in and both Robben and Ginola to beat their men.

I'm not too fussed about a few crosses, I would be more concerned facing Brehme-Ginola, Sagnol-Robben and Bergkamp-Cavani through the middle with not much more than a three man backline and a pivot.

 

[Balu]

He's turned the corner recently though.

At the moment, he more and more looks like his lazy, egoistic self again after he seemed to be a changed man in 2013. Probably needs to be benched for a few games, he really was annoying in the last games .

 

[Brwned]

I suppose that's fair. I do like Stobz's setup on its own but Robben/Ginola there with the fullback support and Cavani in the middle is clearly the most effective route to goal in this game and is what tips it here for me. Bit of a shame as we'd quite like to take Brehme off your hands...

 

[Balu]

I suppose that's fair. I do like Stobz's setup on its own but Robben/Ginola there with the fullback support and Cavani in the middle is clearly the most effective route to goal in this game and is what tips it here for me. Bit of a shame as we'd quite like to take Brehme off your hands...

I was kinda hoping to get him as well, if I go through (very big if, though).

 

[antohan]

At the moment, he more and more looks like his lazy, egoistic self again after he seemed to be a changed man in 2013. Probably needs to be benched for a few games, he really was annoying in the last games .

Leopard doesn't change his spots? Maybe he needs another sobering peno miss. Not that you will trust a non-German with that again No worries, the World Cup is a good one to take care of that

 

[antohan]

I suppose that's fair. I do like Stobz's setup on its own but Robben/Ginola there with the fullback support and Cavani in the middle is clearly the most effective route to goal in this game and is what tips it here for me. Bit of a shame as we'd quite like to take Brehme off your hands...

But, but, you got Maldini! And, as I said before, Branco would be very effective in your back five. Jorginho though... You've played Brehme on the right before iirc, no?

I was kinda hoping to get him as well, if I go through (very big if, though).

Yeah, I imagined Brehme would be your dream upgrade for Christian Ziege. It's not Neeskens as the instrumental cog in the wheel though, is it? And Kroos should be fine instead of Schweinsteiger. Now, vote!

 

[Moby]

What's your beef with Jorginho, anto? I've seen Brazilians rate him quite highly usually.

 

[Stobzilla]

Christ, and I can't even get drunk. 6-0 voting run.

To ill to fight it, wp mate, I'm going to bed.

 

[Brwned]

But, but, you got Maldini! And, as I said before, Branco would be very effective in your back five. Jorginho though... You've played Brehme on the right before iirc, no?

Aye, it would be for Jorginho. You're losing a little something with Brehme on the opposite side but he's been one of the best players on the pitch playing on the right in World Cups before so I wouldn't have any worry about him there. You not being a fan of Jorginho isn't a big deal but you and Balu - both of whom have seen plenty more of him than I have - is a pretty clear sign he needs upgrading.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Gave it to Anto. His team looks the more balanced to me. I agree with some of the doubts raised over his CB pairing, but then again I think people are too hung up on the formula of "ball playing" and a "physical" defender as a pairing. Criticism: Cocu is too pedestrian for my money and Cavani is a whelp. I refuse to recognize anyone that age in a draft going back to 1960. Unproven.

Stobz: We all know Mata and RVP are rubbish. We've seen it with our own tearful eyes on several occasions! The opposite of vote pullers, mate.

Seriously, though: Mata is too lightweight for me. But my main gripe is the formation as such. On closer inspection I agree with Anto that Beckham needs more support - from a proper fullback - to work his magic in that role. It's a formation that would work much better with a proper wingback in Beckham's place - and a more heavyweight man in Mata's. Sorry, man - plenty of brilliant players, I love the inclusion of Weah, for instance, who waltzes right over Cavani or whatever his name is.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I think this is the reason Koeman is so often underrated. He isn't really a sweeper in his style but rather an extremely gifted ball playing stopper. He played as the lone CB with two full-backs next to him and if he was defensively solid enough for that - he would with ease be comfortable with a CB partner next to him.

The issue with playing two "sweepers" is that usually they want to occupy the same space by both pushing forward after interceptions - that is obviously then not a complementing partnership as you want one of those to be comfortable when he is left behind.

Koeman would naturally always stay behind and his ball-playing ability makes people assume he is purely a sweeper which isn't a good description at all of how he played.

So Popescu would be the sweeper who tries to intercept balls in front of Koeman, and then use his great passing to instantly find a good option in front of him. Koeman on the contrary whether playing with Popescu or not, would be the "last man"(stopper if you will) who can't by any means afford to let opponents be free behind him.

So for me that partnership is top class defensively and probably the best in the draft when on the ball.

 

[antohan]

What's your beef with Jorginho, anto? I've seen Brazilians rate him quite highly usually.

No beef as such, just don't rate him very highly. He's not a liability but if you look at Edgar's side he is the most immediate/obvious improvement area.

 

[antohan]

Aye, it would be for Jorginho. You're losing a little something with Brehme on the opposite side but he's been one of the best players on the pitch playing on the right in World Cups before so I wouldn't have any worry about him there. You not being a fan of Jorginho isn't a big deal but you and Balu - both of whom have seen plenty more of him than I have - is a pretty clear sign he needs upgrading.

You mean Balu then

 

[Brwned]

Cavani's a goner in the next round for sure but I think that's a bit harsh. He scored more goals in his last two seasons at Napoli (71) than Weah did in 5 seasons at Milan (57). Obviously Serie A is more open in recent times and Weah offered much more than goals, but still, I think that shows that he's a proven goalscorer.

You mean Balu then

Well, sort of! If you say it I can just ignore it and pretend it's agenda-driven but when someone who watched him play for his club for a few seasons says it then it's much harder to ignore...

I think this is the reason Koeman is so often underrated. He isn't really a sweeper in his style but rather an extremely gifted ball playing stopper. He played as the lone CB with two full-backs next to him and if he was defensively solid enough for that - he would with ease be comfortable with a CB partner next to him.

The issue with playing two "sweepers" is that usually they want to occupy the same space by both pushing forward after interceptions - that is obviously then not a complementing partnership as you want one of those to be comfortable when he is left behind.

Koeman would naturally always stay behind and his ball-playing ability makes people assume he is purely a sweeper which isn't a good description at all of how he played.

So Popescu would be the sweeper who tries to intercept balls in front of Koeman, and then use his great passing to instantly find a good option in front of him. Koeman on the contrary whether playing with Popescu or not, would be the "last man"(stopper if you will) who can't by any means afford to let opponents be free behind him.

So for me that partnership is top class defensively and probably the best in the draft when on the ball.

I agree that the sweeper-sweeper issue is overplayed but the idea that Koeman stayed back in defence is well wide of the mark, IMO. He went forward plenty. I've no doubt he would sit back if necessary though, but the issue for me is less to do with style and more to do with the fact I don't think Koeman was anything like a top class centre back who was this one-man defence capable of nullifying even the best forwards. He's somewhere between a good and very good defender with an exceptional passing range for me.

If you look at Holland v Brazil he's the passenger in that defence, not this one-man brick wall marshalling everything around him. The same is true against Barcelona in the 4-0 loss, the same is true against almost every top class attacking team he came up against at the top level.

 

[crappycraperson]

Gave it to Anto. His team looks the more balanced to me. I agree with some of the doubts raised over his CB pairing, but then again I think people are too hung up on the formula of "ball playing" and a "physical" defender as a pairing. Criticism: Cocu is too pedestrian for my money and Cavani is a whelp. I refuse to recognize anyone that age in a draft going back to 1960. Unproven.

Stobz: We all know Mata and RVP are rubbish. We've seen it with our own tearful eyes on several occasions! The opposite of vote pullers, mate.

Seriously, though: Mata is too lightweight for me. But my main gripe is the formation as such. On closer inspection I agree with Anto that Beckham needs more support - from a proper fullback - to work his magic in that role. It's a formation that would work much better with a proper wingback in Beckham's place - and a more heavyweight man in Mata's. Sorry, man - plenty of brilliant players, I love the inclusion of Weah, for instance, who waltzes right over Cavani or whatever his name is.

Agree with most of this. I prefer the personnel in Stob's side but not his set up. Hence voted for anto

 

[antohan]

Cavani is a whelp. I refuse to recognize anyone that age in a draft going back to 1960. Unproven.

Cavani is 27 and on target to finish with over 30 goals in a season for the fourth season running. How much more proven than that do you need? Weah was being described as a "goal machine" for scoring half as much at his career peak between ages 28-31.

Several players on this draft are less proven, and younger. I don't hold that against them though, just judge them on their peak so far, as opposed to their perceived ceiling (which would be pure made up shit, obviously).

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Cavani is 27 and on target to finish with over 30 goals in a season for the fourth season running. How much more proven than that do you need? Weah was being described as a "goal machine" for scoring half as much at his career peak between ages 28-31.

Several players on this draft are less proven, and younger. I don't hold that against them though, just judge them on their peak so far, as opposed to their perceived ceiling (which would be pure made up shit, obviously).

Sorry for the green lad, man - I just knew you would bite, that's all. I wasn't being 100% serious. But give me Weah over Cavani any day - I'm serious about that.

 

[antohan]

Well, sort of! If you say it I can just ignore it and pretend it's agenda-driven but when someone who watched him play for his club for a few seasons says it then it's much harder to ignore...

Nah, nothing to do with agendas, you asked me what I thought about the Brazilian theme at the back and rather than clap my hands I told you I thought you would need to break it up sooner or later anyway. Cafú could preserve it at RB, but I didn't think Dante-Lucio would last too long either. Branco, in a five and let loose, is the strongest of the lot IMO.

 

[antohan]

I agree that the sweeper-sweeper issue is overplayed but the issue for me is less to do with style and more to do with the fact I don't think Koeman was anything like a top class centre back who was this one-man defence capable of nullifying even the best forwards. He's somewhere between a good and very good defender with an exceptional passing range for me.

I'd agree with that, not a Figueroa, albeit closer to very good than just good. There were very clear cases where you would absolutely want him partnered with a heavy duty defender (Kohler/Ruggeri) or, at least, with someone with the anticipation and reading of the game to mitigate his shortcomings (Popescu). Since I had got a sheep already I had to be conscious of a possible need for a third midfielder/DM AND his partnering needs, so Popescu worked brilliantly as someone who could do both, while with a stopper I just had that: a stopper.

If I get a pop at bringing reinforcements one would certainly be a designated partner (if the right one becomes available), leaving Popescu as an option for DM duties or when a partner isn't particularly needed.

Not particularly urged to replace Cavani though. There really aren't many out there who would be as good a fit for this team.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I agree that the sweeper-sweeper issue is overplayed but the issue for me is less to do with style and more to do with the fact I don't think Koeman was anything like a top class centre back who was this one-man defence capable of nullifying even the best forwards. He's somewhere between a good and very good defender with an exceptional passing range for me.

Can't disagree with that opinion. In an all time draft I would consider him as a weakness in a Koeman+Sweeper combination as the amount of available quality stoppers are so high.

In this draft however I think he is good enough not to be pointed out as a weakness next to a sweeper - if that makes sense? I think if it wasn't for the confusion people have thinking Koeman is a sweeper then I think people wouldn't consider him a weakness by any means.

Of course he would still not form the best CB partnership in this draft in terms of defensive stability - but I think it gets quite unfair on Anto when people bring it up as a pure weakness or something completely out of order.