3rd in what list? He's not the 3rd GOAT yet if that's what you mean?
Redcafe Snooker
- Thread starter Ronnie O'Sullivan
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It was, yeah.
If that's the only thing you disagree with in the post, then fine. Where would you put Judd in the list? And who else would you currently put above him? John Higgins or Steve Davis, maybe?
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I would put both of those right now yes - am not saying he won't move up but he's not there quite yet for me. Was a good post though.
Mark Williams is also above Trump I would say. Maybe even Selby. Trump could surpass them of course. Long way to catch Higgins and Davis though.
I'm really enjoying watching this Lisowski - Robertson match.
I like both players, so it's the kind of match that I want both to win and feel really sorry for the loser.
I prefer Lisowski. I'd love him to start winning trophies and, in the shorter term, fully establish himself in the top 16. He's looking better from the mental and consistency side of the game - but still less so than the regular winners of tournaments. I'd prefer him to win, but then Robbo is more likely to go and compete for the title so either going through would be fine.
I'm just glad Jack is showing himself capable of competing with Robbo so far. He's being helped by Robertson not being at his best yet, but Lisowski is doing well with the safety, potting and temperament side of his game so far. Still a long way to go though, and Robbo's bound to turn it on at some point - the challenge will be for Jack to keep up with him then.
I like both players, so it's the kind of match that I want both to win and feel really sorry for the loser.
I prefer Lisowski. I'd love him to start winning trophies and, in the shorter term, fully establish himself in the top 16. He's looking better from the mental and consistency side of the game - but still less so than the regular winners of tournaments. I'd prefer him to win, but then Robbo is more likely to go and compete for the title so either going through would be fine.
I'm just glad Jack is showing himself capable of competing with Robbo so far. He's being helped by Robertson not being at his best yet, but Lisowski is doing well with the safety, potting and temperament side of his game so far. Still a long way to go though, and Robbo's bound to turn it on at some point - the challenge will be for Jack to keep up with him then.
Trump's 15 years younger than Williams, 6 years younger than Sebly, and already has more ranking titles than the latter and just one less than the former. He's also already got way more century breaks than either.
So I guess a lot depends on how much importance you put on total World Championships (like the CL / World Cup argument in football). They've won 3, Trump's only won one. But, again, he's much younger and has only just reached his prime in the last couple of years so plenty more opportunities to win them and other titles before he's 37 and 46 like those two.
I'd put Trump 5th on the list for now. I initially said 3rd but should have put Higgins and Davis above him at the moment.
If it’s talent wise and not achievements then Alex Higgins should be in it too. I also said for now. Could easily surpass them of course. Higgins and Davis will be a tough ask though. Also you have way more ranking events nowadays isn’t it?
I thought it was both.
With achievements the more important of the two but talent (or attacking, entertaining style) maybe a good separator if there's little to decide them in achievements (titles).
Trump's got amazing talent, but I was highlighting his achievements in my post as to why he was 5th in the list imo - he's only 31 but already has more ranking titles than Selby, and just one less than Williams (who's 15 years older). He's 6th in the all time ranking titles - and by far the youngest - so the only one I'm putting him above (when placing him 5th in the GOAT debate) is Williams as he's only 1 title behind him despite being 15 years younger.
Its fair with Williams but ranking titles is a bit misleading since there are a lot more nowadays. Also Trump must add a lot more majors. Winning 10 Gibraltar opens doesn’t equal winning 1 WC but you mentioned that in the post before. If he finishes on two or three world titles he will never surpass Davis and Higgins in my opinion.
Triple crown wins is a good indicator.
Moving away from the GOAT debate to the other level - who do people think are (younger) ones to watch out for outside the top 16 players next season?
I know he's 33, but I enjoyed following Jamie Jones' return to the main tour this season. It was interesting watching him starting as a 100+ player knowing he was a top 64 / 32 player. He's quickly got back up there and is now into the last 16 of the World Championship.
There's plenty of young Chinese players - too many, imo - but a shortage of British ones. I'd like to see 17 year old Jamie Wilson pick up more wins in his second season. He looked decent the few times I saw him.
I always want Ursenbacher and Brecel to do well - the former is improving, the latter going backwards but has more potential of the two. And I'd like to see the likes of Clarke, Craigie and Donaldson (who's already there or thereabouts) get into the top 32.
I guess a lot depends on which 14 come through Q School. I'd like to see Jackson Page return, and Michael White to get back on and finally start fulfilling his potential.
I know he's 33, but I enjoyed following Jamie Jones' return to the main tour this season. It was interesting watching him starting as a 100+ player knowing he was a top 64 / 32 player. He's quickly got back up there and is now into the last 16 of the World Championship.
There's plenty of young Chinese players - too many, imo - but a shortage of British ones. I'd like to see 17 year old Jamie Wilson pick up more wins in his second season. He looked decent the few times I saw him.
I always want Ursenbacher and Brecel to do well - the former is improving, the latter going backwards but has more potential of the two. And I'd like to see the likes of Clarke, Craigie and Donaldson (who's already there or thereabouts) get into the top 32.
I guess a lot depends on which 14 come through Q School. I'd like to see Jackson Page return, and Michael White to get back on and finally start fulfilling his potential.
Ronnie’s pulled it back to 10-9. Huge last frame before the mid-session interval.
McGill has already lost in his head.
Seems that way. Missed some absolute sitters and looks a little sellshocked which he shouldn’t be because everyone knows what Ronnie’s capable of.
He needed a bit of luck early on in this session but he's settled down now while McGill has fallen apart.
Interesting to see if McGill can make a game of it again after the interval.
Interesting to see if McGill can make a game of it again after the interval.
10-10. It’s a disaster actually
Feel sorry for McGill here, he looks absolutely broken, he has no answer.
Wait, you are already putting Judd over Higgins and Davis? Hell, can you put him over Selby? I guess Selby's bored people into forgetting his 8 Triple Crowns.
That was some break for McGill.
If you mean my earlier post, no, I changed that and put him 5th - behind Higgins and Davis. I'd put Judd in the 5, 6, 7 group with Selby and Williams but put him above them as he's already won more rankings tournaments despite being 6 and 15 years younger (well, more than Selby, 1 less than Williams but is 15 years younger so a much better ratio). And has racked up way more century breaks as he's an unbelievable break builder.
I guess for some, Judd needs to win more Triple Crown events to overtake the others. And that's fair. But he's much younger than them and has time to do that, so going off the amount of ranking titles and century breaks he's racked up by 31 I think he's definitely in that group despite having won less Triple Crown events up to now.
But, to me, it's not a huge thing (despite the amount of posts I've been involved with today on it) as, like the 'best ever footballer', it's not quantifiable or provable. The point I was really making, in response to some earlier posts saying Judd isn't that great and just has little opposition (ironically the ones now, rightly, being raved about as greats) was that he is a great player and that, at 31, he is up there as one of the best there's been.
If people say other valid names amongst the greats are currently ahead of him then that's fine. As they're all brilliant players and there'll always be debates about whose best. I was just really saying Judd is already in that conversation. I'd put him 5th. If others put Selby, Williams ahead of him then fine. Neither are 'right' or 'wrong' and all valid opinions.
O'Sullivan has looked tetchy and a bit tired this evening. I'm not surprised he made the error at this stage. Good chance for McGill from here.
That's a great win for McGill . Genuinely didn't think he had it in him after the Ronnie comeback
Ah, b*ll*cks.
Not too fond of McGill - always looks a bit of a bad tempered bugger during games like Maguire and Carter. And I didn't like his behaviour v Clarke last year: as the seed he shouldn't have kept his complaints going on for so long against a debutant (I suspect it was tactical, while trailing 7-2, to disrupt Clarke - and it worked perfectly but I didn't approve of it).
Most of my interest now in the bottom half of the draw: with Trump, Robertson, Lisowski and Wilson.
Not too fond of McGill - always looks a bit of a bad tempered bugger during games like Maguire and Carter. And I didn't like his behaviour v Clarke last year: as the seed he shouldn't have kept his complaints going on for so long against a debutant (I suspect it was tactical, while trailing 7-2, to disrupt Clarke - and it worked perfectly but I didn't approve of it).
Most of my interest now in the bottom half of the draw: with Trump, Robertson, Lisowski and Wilson.
McGill held it together really well there, especially given he looked all-but out at 12-11.
The slow, reluctant round of applause for McGill from the Ronnie fan club that is the Crucible audience made me laugh.
The slow, reluctant round of applause for McGill from the Ronnie fan club that is the Crucible audience made me laugh.
McGill!
I think this is the beginning of the end for Ronnie. His mental stamina is declining making it harder to keep up over the longer format against the better players.
So we are looking at something like McGill - Selby and Robertson - Trump semifinals, apparently. That’s where it would become unpredictable
Robbo finished Lisowski and Higgins with a three in a row to limit damage to 6-10.
Still it’s likely that Mark Williams will win it
Well yeah, it's likely. 
But, don't count Higgins out yet.
But, don't count Higgins out yet.
Jack Lisowski will be top 3 in a couple of years
Well that might happen but it's a long way to go for that . Outside the rubbish events like championship league & pro series he was 1-6 against the top 5 players this season. He can beat them on a good day but not consistently .
Agreed, though in a couple of years he’ll be more experienced and consistent
Some fecking pot that by Williams.
Williams was simply better
Good couple of days snooker, O'Sullivan and his "c'mon Ronnay!"'s sent packing and Mark Williams playing some good stuff,.
What happened last year to Mcgill in the semi final? I recall something crazy, think he might have lost the match by a fluke or something but I've forgotten. Anyone got the clip?
I love watching O'Sullivan play, so I can put up with those loud, annoying shouts from the crowd.
But I can completely understand how others find them too irritating as that's exactly how I felt during the Jimmy White - Stephen Hendry era. I was a big fan of Hendry, and the more the crowd shouted for White, the more desperate I was for Hendry to win.
Is it when he got up and chased Kyren Wilson down the tunnel looking for a fight then lost?