RedCafe's Top 20 (30) by Position | Please check out the last threadmark
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Thanks for the shoutout @Synco even though i didn"t do much hahaha
I'm glad this project is resuming, though before casting my vote i have a question, what are the criterias that should weigh the most when i'll have to cast the vote. Is it going to be peak, longevity, team success or a blend of all of the above ?
I'm still new to this forum, so i don't fully understand how the draft work so i'm just observing for now.
I'm glad this project is resuming, though before casting my vote i have a question, what are the criterias that should weigh the most when i'll have to cast the vote. Is it going to be peak, longevity, team success or a blend of all of the above ?
Hi it's me
I'm still new to this forum, so i don't fully understand how the draft work so i'm just observing for now.
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Deadline for this vote is June 23th (but we're never that strict with them). You find all the fundamental info in the OP of the voting thread.
What you personally deem important, really. I'm sure the voters will generally try to find a balance between all the factors you mentioned.
So this is L/R wing combined?
Yes.
I feel that players like Di Maria, Robben and Ribery might have an unfair advantage in this because they play as inverted wingers which is by essence a more rewarding playstyle compared to the one classic wingers used to have.
Generally - all of the above, based on your personal preference.
Wouldn't say so - to me it's more a case of a different accentuation than a straight up advantage. Other players will get their due credit for excellence in more "classical" aspects of wingplay.
Cheers, the categorization is mostly harms' doing.
There are plenty of 50:50 cases imo, and inevitably so. Generally, many wingers and strikers could be forwards just as well. But since the forwards category is hopelessly overcrowded (many greats will miss out in a top 30), it's probably best to treat borderline cases as wingers & strikers whenever possible.
I'm not entirely sure what I should be doing here. Just rank 30 out of the 46 preselected "wingers"?
Pretty much. If you want to include some winger that's not on the list, but he's not on any other lists as well, feel free to do so (we're not doing preselected lists it to rule out candidates that we don't like, but to make sure votes for players don't split between two categories, hurting their overall standing). You can also list only 20 (or 5 for that matter) — 30 is the maximum amount, not the necessary requirement.
Nope, not anymore
I used my newly aquired power to put the minimum at 10. Should be no trouble to do.
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OK, and it's strictly that position/role, if I think someone is better because they are also great CMs or inside forwards that should be cut out from any consideration, right?
Not necessarily so, but it's up to you in the end.
A few players with two distinct all time great positions (like Beckenbauer, Desailly, Maldini) were included in more than one list, so a strict seperation makes sense there. For all others it's inevitably murky and a matter of preference. I personally would factor in the overall "greatness" of a player, including ability in multiple roles. But others may do it differently.
Fair enoughNope, not anymore
I used my newly aquired power to put the minimum at 10. Should be no trouble to do.
We've tried to leave as much leeway as possible, but since the ideal situation is to have 1 player in 1 category, I'd probably consider all of his career in the assessment. The idea was to leave the evaluation method entirely up to you, while also making sure that the Nesta situation never happens again (you've probably missed it, but votes for Nesta got split between stoppers & ball-playing CBs, so he ended up way lower on both lists than where he would've been if all those votes were given to him in one of those two categories).
Unpopular opinion : Garrincha shoudn't be a consensus number 1 or 2.
What do you guys think are the main arguments to justify such a ranking.
What do you guys think are the main arguments to justify such a ranking.
Magic
Likes the draft section
Supports Barca, while that alone is a bit meh you probably like modern greats from there which is nice
Questions a winger
Conclusion: I like you @Earvin Johnson
Likes the draft section
Supports Barca, while that alone is a bit meh you probably like modern greats from there which is nice
Questions a winger
Conclusion: I like you @Earvin Johnson
Winning the 1962 World Cup is certainly among the main ones — that’s the most influential performance from a wide player in history of that tournament (with Rensenbrink probably being second best? Robben as well, although his best World Cup was him in a second striker-ish role). Best was unlucky to never feature in one, Džajić/Nedved/Figo performed better at Euros etc.
Yes that was quite an achievement.
The issue i have with him only came once i started to go through some of his footage. Garrincha have this reputation of being one of the best dribblers of all time and while he was absolutely elite when it came to beat his man on the wing, (even though there were instances where he was trying to play the one on one too hard) i haven't seen any of the "messiesque" runs where one player get the ball and just runs straight to the goal which characterizes great dribblers, it seems like he lacked a lil bit of pace to pull them off, as i've often seen defenders catch up to him.
So while there is no doubt that he is one of the best wingers of all time, i don't think his impact on the game alone would justify a consensus 1-2 position. I still don't know where he will land in my ranking but i feel that it may be one of those instances where the legend is bigger than the actual player. A bit like Allen Iverson in Basketball.
Thanks for putting your neck on the line by officially inviting me! You’ll always be at fault now.First time I’ve come across this thread, I’ll follow the links later and put some votes in
Well here i will expand on the choices i made when it came to ranking the best wingers of all time but first let me mention the players whom i couldn't rank due to the lack of sufficient footage :
Finney - Matthews - Zagallo - Czibor - Ghiggia - Zebec - Rahn
Now let me go over some choices that some could consider controversial, or just providing comments on some players.
Overall i consider that the top 6 is in a tier of their own and a clear cut above the rest of the players.
In first postion we have George Best. And it is kinda by default, because even if he has the peak and the accolades to justify such a position, his longevity is poor especially compared to some other players in the list. But at the end of the day, i think that his peak was good enough to secure him the first place.
In second position i put Reisenbrink, i wasn't very familiar with him before watching footage of him and he was simply mesmerizing. Not only was he a top tier dribbler, but he was also an elite passer. Feeding his striker crosses and Through balls alike. He was also one of the best goal scorers out there, netting nearly 300 goals throughout his carreer. He finished second in the ballon d'or voting of 1976 and third in 1978 so we can say confidently that he was the best winger of the 70's. I longly hesitated between him and Dzajic for the second place but at the end of the day, i felt like Reisenbrink was the superior dribbler and passer, and that settled the deal for me.
Now let's talk about Robbery, the frenchman ranked third while the Dutchman ranked sixth. And while Robben got a few Top 10 mentions, Ribery was more often than not ranked at the bottom of the lists which frankly was quite schocking to me.
Let's start by stating the obvious, those two were the best players of one of the greatest team of all time, which speaks volume about their talent. But one thing at a time so let's start with Ribery, as he is the one who i believe gets underrated the most.
During his 3 year peak of 2011-2014 Ribery averaged 5.5 dribbles and 3.1 Key passes per 90 minutes. To put it into perspective Leo Messi 3 year peak of 2017-20 has registered 5.3 dribbles and 2.8 KP per 90.
Obviously these numbers have to be put into perspective because Messi's dribbles have a higher completion rate, they also take part in the most crowded part of the pitch (Final third in front of the penalty area so they are more valuable playmaking wise). But when you know how much Messi is ahead of the competition, simply being able to be spoken in the same breathe as him is a feat that only a handful of individuals in football history can claim.
So at his peak he was arguably the best playmaker in the world not named Lionel Messi, and that feat should place him as a consensus top 5 among the different contestants that we have here.
Especially since i see that Figo and Nedved seem to be a consensus top 10 if not top 5. But in my opinion they got nothing over him if not maybe a ballon d'or trophy. And let's talk about the ballon d'or, i feel that if Ribery won it in 2013 he would be getting much more recognition, and the truth is that he won it ! Well he was voted in first place by the journalists so he should've got it in normal circumstances. What screw him up were the votes of coaches and players which normally count for the Fifa player of the year not the ballon d'or...
Anyway, to conclude on him i believe he reached a GOAT tier level in playmaking and was the best player of arguably the second most dominant team of the last 30 years which justify his third place.
Now about Robben, in my opinion he was even better than Ribery, he was a slightly worse playmaker but a much superior goalscorer, so i see him as more valuable, the reason why he is ranked lower is because of injuries and the fact that he never really had a full season with Bayern, but his presence was game changing whenever he was on the pitch.
About Garrincha, i already explained what were my reserves on him on a precedent post so i won't come back on them.
Now some comments on the other players :
I think that's all i wanted to say, Any thoughts ?
TLDR : Don't sleep on robbery.
Finney - Matthews - Zagallo - Czibor - Ghiggia - Zebec - Rahn
Now let me go over some choices that some could consider controversial, or just providing comments on some players.
Overall i consider that the top 6 is in a tier of their own and a clear cut above the rest of the players.
In first postion we have George Best. And it is kinda by default, because even if he has the peak and the accolades to justify such a position, his longevity is poor especially compared to some other players in the list. But at the end of the day, i think that his peak was good enough to secure him the first place.
In second position i put Reisenbrink, i wasn't very familiar with him before watching footage of him and he was simply mesmerizing. Not only was he a top tier dribbler, but he was also an elite passer. Feeding his striker crosses and Through balls alike. He was also one of the best goal scorers out there, netting nearly 300 goals throughout his carreer. He finished second in the ballon d'or voting of 1976 and third in 1978 so we can say confidently that he was the best winger of the 70's. I longly hesitated between him and Dzajic for the second place but at the end of the day, i felt like Reisenbrink was the superior dribbler and passer, and that settled the deal for me.
Now let's talk about Robbery, the frenchman ranked third while the Dutchman ranked sixth. And while Robben got a few Top 10 mentions, Ribery was more often than not ranked at the bottom of the lists which frankly was quite schocking to me.
Let's start by stating the obvious, those two were the best players of one of the greatest team of all time, which speaks volume about their talent. But one thing at a time so let's start with Ribery, as he is the one who i believe gets underrated the most.
During his 3 year peak of 2011-2014 Ribery averaged 5.5 dribbles and 3.1 Key passes per 90 minutes. To put it into perspective Leo Messi 3 year peak of 2017-20 has registered 5.3 dribbles and 2.8 KP per 90.
Obviously these numbers have to be put into perspective because Messi's dribbles have a higher completion rate, they also take part in the most crowded part of the pitch (Final third in front of the penalty area so they are more valuable playmaking wise). But when you know how much Messi is ahead of the competition, simply being able to be spoken in the same breathe as him is a feat that only a handful of individuals in football history can claim.
So at his peak he was arguably the best playmaker in the world not named Lionel Messi, and that feat should place him as a consensus top 5 among the different contestants that we have here.
Especially since i see that Figo and Nedved seem to be a consensus top 10 if not top 5. But in my opinion they got nothing over him if not maybe a ballon d'or trophy. And let's talk about the ballon d'or, i feel that if Ribery won it in 2013 he would be getting much more recognition, and the truth is that he won it ! Well he was voted in first place by the journalists so he should've got it in normal circumstances. What screw him up were the votes of coaches and players which normally count for the Fifa player of the year not the ballon d'or...
Anyway, to conclude on him i believe he reached a GOAT tier level in playmaking and was the best player of arguably the second most dominant team of the last 30 years which justify his third place.
Now about Robben, in my opinion he was even better than Ribery, he was a slightly worse playmaker but a much superior goalscorer, so i see him as more valuable, the reason why he is ranked lower is because of injuries and the fact that he never really had a full season with Bayern, but his presence was game changing whenever he was on the pitch.
About Garrincha, i already explained what were my reserves on him on a precedent post so i won't come back on them.
Now some comments on the other players :
- Futre had the talent to make it into the top 6, but his poor longevity played against him
- I didn't know where to place Di Maria, always had conflicted feelings on him. His stats look great and it is plainly obvious that he is very comfortable with the ball, but his decision making is somewhat questionable.
- Causio seemed better than Conti from the footage i saw. To be honest i was unimpressed by Conti, i have the same criticism on his dribbling as Garrincha. I feel that he is ranked higher because he was starting during the 1982 WC, Causio was out of his prime by then.
- Gadocha is higher than Lato, perhaps Lato is a better player but from what i've seen he played more like a striker than a winger. He was often playing back to goal and didnt seem quick enough to create anything substantial on the wing, so as a winger Gadocha seemed more skilled.
I think that's all i wanted to say, Any thoughts ?
TLDR : Don't sleep on robbery.
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Not a lists guy ( just ends up stressing me out tbh) but i'm surprised you have Dzajic so high after the questioning of Garrincha. That was fair enough reasoning, but as soon as i've read that i thought Dzajic won't make his top ten.
Anyone else finding Garrincha vs Best incredibly hard, going back and forth a few times?
Actually, i put Dzajic in front of him because i thought his style of play was more vertical, his passing seemed elite and he seemed to score more consistently. I don't see why he should be ranked out of the top 10 though, because he seems to be one of the few wingers out here who is elite at dribbling, passing and scoring.
But to be honest i tried to work with tiers when i was making my list and the top 6 guys are Tier 1, and i believe you could put them in a different order without it being too schocking in my opinion.
@Synco
I thought Best was a superior finisher and a better dribbler so there was not much of a struggle for me when it came to rank them.
Wingers thread will get closed before too long - just tagging a few voting veterans in case they still want to get a list in.
@2mufc0 @berbasloth4 @BIG DUNK @Fortitude @freeurmind
@2mufc0 @berbasloth4 @BIG DUNK @Fortitude @freeurmind
It was more Dzajic and Best for me. But the more I watched the more impressed I was with Best's close control and balance belonging to another world.
@Earvin Johnson Garrincha is a difficult one. I don't feel there's enough footage to truly warrant a full assessment. I suppose ultimately in terms of winger impact on the biggest stage he stands alone.
From the games & footage I've seen I also prefer Best all in all. So that was the open question...
...while this was the main caveat...
...and this the conclusion I came to in the end as well.
Has it been determined that Ronaldo is not a winger then?
Cheers. I was wondering when this was going to return
Binge-watching Best for the last couple of months to make a penultimate compilation of him made it a bit easier, even though it’s not really fair to Garrincha
Actually he could’ve been included — since his United version of 06/07 (and around that point) already had a place somewhere close to the top of this list.
But the peak Ronaldo is a forward without a doubt, yeah.