Category: footballer.
RedCafe's Top 20 (30) by Position | Please check out the last threadmark
- Thread starter Stobzilla
- Start date
I've made the poll. If there are any other options that you want to include, let me know.
Well it's quite odd to have a category that just lumps every type of defender in because that immediately fails to recognise different traits, skilsets, compentence and scrubs what some players were from the board, like what they did shouldn't count for much in the grand scheme of things, despite it being what their legacy is founded upon.
I also think you're then just veering into the realm of the generic with hardly any nuance to the composition, which dilutes the effort and penalises a number of players who have a right to be acknowledged - stoppers especially will be the ones most impacted.
I also think you're then just veering into the realm of the generic with hardly any nuance to the composition, which dilutes the effort and penalises a number of players who have a right to be acknowledged - stoppers especially will be the ones most impacted.
Can one of you randomize A, B, C, D and E with random.org, please? Thanks! 
There were 5 items in your list. Here they are in random order:Can one of you randomize A, B, C, D and E with random.org, please? Thanks!
- C
- E
- D
- B
- A
Timestamp: 2019-07-09 11:21:45 UTC
Does this work for you?
Yes, thank you!
What's this about invict?been meaning to ask for ages.Can one of you randomize A, B, C, D and E with random.org, please? Thanks!
Oh, we've been playing “PM Draft” for a couple of months (5 participants now, hence A to E).
Ahh.
This may have been clarified earlier, but what is the difference between option 2 “sweepers with liberos” and option 3 “ball playing defenders”?
Who falls under option 3 who wouldn’t fall under option 2 for example - does 3 include the likes of Ferdinand and Carvalho ie ‘covering defenders’.
Yeah, ball-playing defenders is a more broad definition that includes the likes of Rio/Carvalho/Ramos/Bonucci/Hummels. I've tried to put all the options that I've seen mentioned in the poll.
What's the difference between options 2 and 3, just the terminology (sweepres vs ball players)?
Overwhelmingly in support of just 2 lists by the looks of it.
I'll try to set up the thread tomorrow — if the poll results won't change drastically, it would be 2 lists, one for ball-playing defenders, the second one for purely defensive stoppers.
I started to ask myself this too - I think all non-sweepers/liberos are simply subsumed under "stoppers" in option 2.
It feels a bit unusual to label players like Pique or Hummels as stoppers, but I guess the essence is that ball-playing CBs (wherever the line is drawn) are grouped with classic stoppers in option 2, and with liberos in option 3.
(If the "ball-playing" category goes as far as Maldini/Nesta/Ferdinand, which seems to be the case, I retract my vote for option 3 and go only for option 2.)
I took it otherwise. Ball players include sweepers from Beckenbauer to Rio/Nesta types. Stoppers are just that, Kohler types.
But isn't that option 3 you talk about? Option 2 doesn't mention ball-playing CBs as a category, just sweepers/liberos vs stoppers.
I’m not really arsed and am sure by the end of the thread I’ll end up arguing with myself over the categories. My only ask would be to keep the likes of Rio separate from Vidic, Brio/Gentile separate from Scirea, Beckenbauer separate from Schwarzenbeck, etc.
@Gio Agreed about the separation in ratings.
Maybe we need to have one player be rated in more than 1 category? This should give the players their deserving talents being rated correctly.
Maybe we need to have one player be rated in more than 1 category? This should give the players their deserving talents being rated correctly.
Ball-playing center backs thread is up!
So, the ball-playing CBs thread is up — http://www.redcafe.net/threads/redcafes-all-time-top-20-ball-playing-central-defenders.448892/
I can do a slow presentation of our goalkeeping list (which would probably add some intrigue) from bottom to top or I can post the full list today, what are your thoughts on this?
I can do a slow presentation of our goalkeeping list (which would probably add some intrigue) from bottom to top or I can post the full list today, what are your thoughts on this?
Slow is good.. Maybe 20-16,11-15,6-10,5,4,3,2,1?
20? I think it makes sense to post the whole list, it includes 48 names
Top-20 is simply easier for the voting process.
Ah yes.. Sorry.. Probably then 10 names at a time or something20? I think it makes sense to post the whole list, it includes 48 names
Top-20 is simply easier for the voting process.
Now this is the problem. Surely, not a top 10 'defender' of all time. Not even in top 20 if u add stoppers too.
Yet he makes the list purely based on his build up qualities while defending is largely ignored.
We will have a list by the end, but chances are it won't be very meaningful.
if we include stoppers then yes Koeman not a top 10 defenders of all time
I'll probably pick him in my all-CB top-20. It's not a coincidence that he had managed to won 2 CLs with different clubs and 1988 Euros as a key member of those sides, sometimes being, quite literally, the game-changer. He's such a weird player to assess though.
Da Guia isn't eligible - he's too old @oneniltothearsenal
If wiki is to be believed, he retired in 1950.
If wiki is to be believed, he retired in 1950.
ah okay
No love for Carvalho so far?
1 vote. It's quite hard to get it, considering the competition.
Completely slipped my mind. He should be in.
Im doing top 20 sweepers for this you bunch of hipsters
Would we reserve the likes of Frank Rijkaard and Uli Stielike in our 'defensive midfielders' ranking?
Last game I've seen from Rijkaard (NED-USSR '88, group stages), he put on an utterly great performance at CB. One of the most dominant I've seen, and much earlier than the more famous switch DM/CB role at Ajax under LvG. I watched it mainly for Dasaev, but Rijkaard was the revelation of that game.
I must check out a bit more, but if that performance was in any way representative of him at CB, he'll be close to the top of my list.
Yes, near the top of mine too. If we’re looking at composure on the ball, distribution (long vertical balls and short passes), football brain/reading of the game and understanding with teammates movements/positions/space, then Rijkaard is top 20 without a doubt.
Can someone clarify if it’s wrong for me to rank Baresi as the #1 defender: in terms of having him at the top of my ‘stopper/man marking/defensive skill’ ranking too.
(Obviously I have Beckenbauer, Baresi and Scirea already at the top of my libero list).
All of this, but what surprised me the most was how physically dominant he was in aeriel duels and as an interceptor/tackler. A joy to watch how he managed to align this with being part of a CB playmaker tandem with Koeman.
But as I said, it was just one game with him at CB, I need to watch a bit more. I saw one game with Milan against Juventus being mentioned, I think I'll look out for that and/or the 1988 game against Germany. If you can recommend anything else, I'd be thankful.
They were incredible together with Koeman in that tournament. The weirdest combination of 2 liberos at CB that somehow worked. But I'm not sure if he played much as a center back in other tournaments (pre-Ajax).
Not that i disagree with assessment of Rijkaard's defensive qualities, but probably still worth mentioning that ussr team in attack and midfield duels were imo notably bad in the air so it was a relatively ideal opponent for smart, big athletic players like Rijkaard and Gullit to excel there. Between whole forward line and midfield they probably don't have more than a small handful of headed goals between them in their entire career that i've seen.
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Yeah, that's why I still need to watch a game or two against top opposition. USSR was properly dominated in that game, even though they managed to win in the end. And Protasov was relatively tall, but didn't look imposing at all in aerial duels.