Religion Discussion | Read the OP before posting

[2cents]

Who's the middleman in Islam without whom you can't find God?

I guess he's referring to the practice of praying to Sufi saints and shrine visitation which was prevalent among Muslims in the subcontinent at that time (and to a lesser extent today).

 

[RedTiger]

I guess he's referring to the practice of praying to Sufi saints and shrine visitation which was prevalent among Muslims in the subcontinent at that time (and to a lesser extent today).

That makes more sense.

 

[Revan]

The problem would be what you might consider a good life, isn't the truest essence of what constitutes a good life. See you can live a good life and do good things, but the core obstacle for man is his ego. Every thought, action, emotion, reaction etc. as mentioned before is judged, but in our lives every single one of these is influenced by ego (whether directly or indirectly). Even doing something charitable feeds your ego, even if you don't realise it. From the ego stems lust, anger, greed and attachment. These are collectively known as the 5 thieves, as they are what influence all our actions and block us from the truth. In order to achieve enlightenment you have to conquer the 4, and finally surrender your ego.

A core concept of Sikhism, is that there's not really such a thing as self. What we call self is really a mixture of our personalities, genetics, identities, thought patterns, cultures and behaviours as shaped by our environment. All of these are associated with the human body and mind, and thus have no attachment to the soul. Don't get me wrong you're here and you're experiencing life but when you die, your memories, identity and experiences are left behind (but not lost necessarily). Part of becoming enlightened means realising the World (and Universe for that matter) is an illusion. Worldly desires that we chase everyday are just a temporary means of superficial happiness, the only true constant is God. The only way to become enlightened in Sikhism, is to meditate on God, thus you'd require a belief. So to answer your Q, it's tricky and very much a case by case scenario. It's not so much the lack of belief in God that'd be your undoing, it'd be the failure to defeat the Ego and living a life of self importance. You won't automatically be considered a sinner though on the basis of your belief in God, and God may ordain it that you be liberated by mercy. This will be the case for every single one of us eventually. No one is going to be consigned to rot in hell for eternity. Everyone will be liberated, it's a matter of in this lifetime or a thousand lifetimes.

If you are considered a sinner, yes you are downgraded to a lower lifeform. On Earth humans are considered the highest lifeform even without religion to tell you this, but as a human you have a genuine capability to achieve enlightenment. However being downgraded isn't the be all and end all, good actions will get you another chance. Who knows maybe with good deeds as an atheist you will be incarnated in another galaxy as a reward and second chance whereby you stand a far greater chance than any human. The essence of life is uniform across the universe and so it's very plausible.

Cool, thanks for the explanation! I find quite more interesting and philosophical the orient religions than the Abrahamic ones.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

I believe in Jesus Christ

That's what I said in slow motion when I saw What Fellaini was about to do in the penalty area at Everton

 

[Dumbstar]

Who's the middleman in Islam without whom you can't find God?

Middlemen in Islam is against Islam. It's you and God, that's it.

 

[RedTiger]

Middlemen in Islam is against Islam. It's you and God, that's it.

I know bro, that's why I asked the question.

 

[BringNaniBack]

Where are all the religious flat eathers?

 

[Silva]

Where are all the religious flat eathers?

Just over the horizon

 

[carvajal]

What do you think of the Marian apparitions? There are many that are quite unknown.
The one at Fatima is the one that surprises me more (although I do not know enough about the rest except Lourdes and Medjugorje).
It could be thought that it is nothing more than a fraud, but in this case the surviving child, Lucia, spent most of her life in a cloistered monastery, so I think that something shocking had to happen to her.
On the other hand these messages of the Virgin are usually communicated a posteriori. It would be well if they had said what was going to happen to the USSR.
The same thing happens in Medjurgore. Apparently Mirjana (one of the girls) will say two of the secrets days before they happen.
I also recently read to someone saying that the apparitions are just contacts with UFOs.
In any case, these apparitions, miracles, etc., happen in more religions?

 

[2cents]

What do you think of the Marian apparitions? There are many that are quite unknown.
The one at Fatima is the one that surprises me more (although I do not know enough about the rest except Lourdes and Medjugorje).
It could be thought that it is nothing more than a fraud, but in this case the surviving child, Lucia, spent most of her life in a cloistered monastery, so I think that something shocking had to happen to her.
On the other hand these messages of the Virgin are usually communicated a posteriori. It would be well if they had said what was going to happen to the USSR.
The same thing happens in Medjurgore. Apparently Mirjana (one of the girls) will say two of the secrets days before they happen.
I also recently read to someone saying that the apparitions are just contacts with UFOs.
In any case, these apparitions, miracles, etc., happen in more religions?

Here's a famous case from Egypt:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Zeitoun

The interesting thing about it (for me) is that both Christians and Muslims claimed to have witnessed it.

 

[carvajal]

Here's a famous case from Egypt:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Zeitoun

The interesting thing about it (for me) is that both Christians and Muslims claimed to have witnessed it.

Thanks 2cents, good contribution. I didn´t know it, now I have something to read about at night.

 

[Carolina Red]

@AXVnee7 and @berbatrick thanks for the insight!

I'd assumed since Sikhism had the concept of dharma it was a direct branch off of that tree.

Also... It's pretty cool to me that the history of Buddhism that berba tells sounds so similar to that of Christianity, especially when you have some folks saying Jesus was something like a western Buddha type figure.

 

[BringNaniBack]

Just over the horizon

good response. I was about to start a flat earth debate then but changed my mind.

 

[2cents]

@AXVnee7 and @berbatrick thanks for the insight!

I'd assumed since Sikhism had the concept of dharma it was a direct branch off of that tree.

Also... It's pretty cool to me that the history of Buddhism that berba tells sounds so similar to that of Christianity, especially when you have some folks saying Jesus was something like a western Buddha type figure.

Something to mull over - Pythagoras, the Buddha, Zoroaster, Confucius, and the unidentified author or editor of the Book of Isaiah all lived within an approximately 120 year period (something like 600 - 480 BC).

Arnold Toynbee wrote:

"With the possible exception of Pythagoras, these sixth-century BC seers are today still influencing mankind, either directly or indirectly, more than any human being who is now alive...There may have been some years in the sixth century BC during which all these five seers were alive simultaneously, but it is improbable that any two of them ever met, and it is even unlikely that any one of them was aware of the existence of any of the others. The beliefs and objectives and practices of two of them - the Buddha and Pythagoras - resemble each other so closely as to make it seem virtually certain that their inspiration was derived from a common source; but it seems no less sure that neither the Buddha in Bihar nor Pythagoras in Italy can have communicated this set of common elements to the geographically distant contemporary with whom he shared them."

 

[Raoul]

good response. I was about to start a flat earth debate then but changed my mind.

Good thing you did, as this isn't the place for it.

 

[Carolina Red]

Something to mull over - Pythagoras, the Buddha, Zoroaster, Confucius, and the unidentified author or editor of the Book of Isaiah all lived within an approximately 120 year period (something like 600 - 480 BC).

Arnold Toynbee wrote:

"With the possible exception of Pythagoras, these sixth-century BC seers are today still influencing mankind, either directly or indirectly, more than any human being who is now alive...There may have been some years in the sixth century BC during which all these five seers were alive simultaneously, but it is improbable that any two of them ever met, and it is even unlikely that any one of them was aware of the existence of any of the others. The beliefs and objectives and practices of two of them - the Buddha and Pythagoras - resemble each other so closely as to make it seem virtually certain that their inspiration was derived from a common source; but it seems no less sure that neither the Buddha in Bihar nor Pythagoras in Italy can have communicated this set of common elements to the geographically distant contemporary with whom he shared them."

That's really fascinating that all that was going on at the same time. I'd known that Buddha and Confucius were alive around the same time... Didn't realize that about the book of Isaiah!

I'd read that Zoroaster may have lived sometime around 1300BC though.

 

[2cents]

That's really fascinating that all that was going on at the same time. I'd known that Buddha and Confucius were alive around the same time... Didn't realize that about the book of Isaiah!

I'd read that Zoroaster may have lived sometime around 1300BC though.

Ah, I just checked, Toynbee says "his date and his location are uncertain, but it seems probable that he did his work in the early years of the sixth century BC..."

In any case, something was in the water during that century, makes you wonder about the possible connections between these ideas that were floating around.

 

[Carolina Red]

Ah, I just checked, Toynbee says "his date and his location are uncertain, but it seems probable that he did his work in the early years of the sixth century BC..."

In any case, something was in the water during that century, makes you wonder about the possible connections between these ideas that were floating around.

It really does... Makes me wonder how much travel between southeastern Europe, the Middle East, and India was being done at that time... Possibly more than originally thought

 

[Moby]

In any case, something was in the water during that century, makes you wonder about the possible connections between these ideas that were floating around.

It's what they talked about in Zeitgeist I think. Don't remember properly now.

 

[Nikhil]

I am a practicing Hindu. I would read a lot of religious books as a kid, 100s of books. I have read the Vedas, Upanishads and other Hindu scriptures. The Bhagavad Gita is beautiful. I highly recommend all of you to read it at least once. It will give you a new perspective.

 

[2mufc0]

I guess he's referring to the practice of praying to Sufi saints and shrine visitation which was prevalent among Muslims in the subcontinent at that time (and to a lesser extent today).

Still is very prevalent, it is a core belief of Sufis that one can and should go through a saint or holy man to reach god.

 

[2cents]

Still is very prevalent, it is a core belief of Sufis that one can and should go through a saint or holy man to reach god.

Yeah that's certainly the case with popular Sufism, the type that prevails among the masses in rural areas. However in its most basic form Sufism doesn't involve all that stuff, it's simply about a way to an individual experience of God. The founders of Deoband for example were all Sufis of the Chishti order (some of them were initiated into more than one order) but all vehemently opposed to the practices of saint worship and shrine visitation.

 

[Penna]

What do you think of the Marian apparitions? There are many that are quite unknown.
The one at Fatima is the one that surprises me more (although I do not know enough about the rest except Lourdes and Medjugorje).
It could be thought that it is nothing more than a fraud, but in this case the surviving child, Lucia, spent most of her life in a cloistered monastery, so I think that something shocking had to happen to her.
On the other hand these messages of the Virgin are usually communicated a posteriori. It would be well if they had said what was going to happen to the USSR.
The same thing happens in Medjurgore. Apparently Mirjana (one of the girls) will say two of the secrets days before they happen.
I also recently read to someone saying that the apparitions are just contacts with UFOs.
In any case, these apparitions, miracles, etc., happen in more religions?

I'm absolutely convinced of the veracity of the Fatima apparitions and those at Lourdes. In the case of Fatima, thousands of people saw the lights in the sky, including non-Christians and non-believers. The three children involved had no reason at all to make up such a story - they were peasant farmers who were pressured by the authorities into withdrawing their claims, but they stood firm on it. The younger two were told by the Blessed Virgin that they would soon be with her, and so it was, they died as children in the flu epidemic.

The jury is still out on Medjugorje, at least as far as the Church is concerned. At the moment, the apparitions are officially "not confirmed" by the Vatican.

 

[Dumbstar]

Yeah that's certainly the case with popular Sufism, the type that prevails among the masses in rural areas. However in its most basic form Sufism doesn't involve all that stuff, it's simply about a way to an individual experience of God. The founders of Deoband for example were all Sufis of the Chishti order (some of them were initiated into more than one order) but all vehemently opposed to the practices of saint worship and shrine visitation.

Yep, I try to stay away from all this but I am by heritage a Barelwi which I think are the closest linked to saint adoration. So I do salat salaam, etc, but I draw the line at any kind of saint intercession or worship like they do in Pakistan/India.

 

[Carolina Red]

Amazing that Islam has the same argument as Catholic vs Protestant in regards to saintly intercession.

 

[donkeyfish]

Something to mull over - Pythagoras, the Buddha, Zoroaster, Confucius, and the unidentified author or editor of the Book of Isaiah all lived within an approximately 120 year period (something like 600 - 480 BC).

Arnold Toynbee wrote:

"With the possible exception of Pythagoras, these sixth-century BC seers are today still influencing mankind, either directly or indirectly, more than any human being who is now alive...There may have been some years in the sixth century BC during which all these five seers were alive simultaneously, but it is improbable that any two of them ever met, and it is even unlikely that any one of them was aware of the existence of any of the others. The beliefs and objectives and practices of two of them - the Buddha and Pythagoras - resemble each other so closely as to make it seem virtually certain that their inspiration was derived from a common source; but it seems no less sure that neither the Buddha in Bihar nor Pythagoras in Italy can have communicated this set of common elements to the geographically distant contemporary with whom he shared them."

Mull indeed, what a fascinating post. Are there any theories about this connection/common source?

 

[2cents]

Amazing that Islam has the same argument as Catholic vs Protestant in regards to saintly intercession.

Yeah, it's an argument that's taken place mostly within Sunni Islam, as Shi'ism has entirely different structures of authority. When the British ruled over a massive Muslim population they tended to see the divisions among their Muslim subjects in terms of the Catholic/Protestant divide, and felt a natural empathy with the sober-minded reformists of the 19th century who opposed the popular Islam of the rural areas. This is an aspect of the initial British alliance with the Saudi state that is often ignored - people tend to focus on oil, but before oil was discovered in Arabia the British viewed the Wahhabis as Muslim 'Puritans' and felt an affinity with them that they never could with, say, the Punjabi or Bengali peasantry.

Mull indeed, what a fascinating post. Are there any theories about this connection/common source?

Not that I know of, but I'm sure there has been work published on it. I'm pretty sure the whole "Jesus went to Kashmir" theory is tied up in all this in some way.

 

[carvajal]

I am a practicing Hindu. I would read a lot of religious books as a kid, 100s of books. I have read the Vedas, Upanishads and other Hindu scriptures. The Bhagavad Gita is beautiful. I highly recommend all of you to read it at least once. It will give you a new perspective.

Last night I downloaded it to read it from the phone. Actually the phrases / proverbs / verses are quite logical today despite their antiquity.
Later I was reading about Hinduism (of which I have no idea) and was surprised by the number of schools, books, subdivisions, etc.
From what I understand some Hindus can consider one deity above the others? Something like evangelists, Protestants, Catholics, varieties of the same ?
If a child begins to study Hinduism what is the most basic?

I'm absolutely convinced of the veracity of the Fatima apparitions and those at Lourdes. In the case of Fatima, thousands of people saw the lights in the sky, including non-Christians and non-believers. The three children involved had no reason at all to make up such a story - they were peasant farmers who were pressured by the authorities into withdrawing their claims, but they stood firm on it. The younger two were told by the Blessed Virgin that they would soon be with her, and so it was, they died as children in the flu epidemic.

The jury is still out on Medjugorje, at least as far as the Church is concerned. At the moment, the apparitions are officially "not confirmed" by the Vatican.

I also think so, but on the other hand the fact that has to be corroborated so much, happening to such a small group of people and that the secrets can not be communicated makes me think, "why not make it easier?". Years ago I was in the sanctuary of Fatima, which was created from nothing, since it was only a village. It is very striking to see people on pilgrimage kneeling during many kilometers, by promises or sudden healings

 

[Nikhil]

Last night I downloaded it to read it from the phone. Actually the phrases / proverbs / verses are quite logical today despite their antiquity.
Later I was reading about Hinduism (of which I have no idea) and was surprised by the number of schools, books, subdivisions, etc.
From what I understand some Hindus can consider one deity above the others? Something like evangelists, Protestants, Catholics, varieties of the same ?
If a child begins to study Hinduism what is the most basic?

Hindus believe that God is manifested in three forms or deities - Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver and Shiva the Destroyer (of cycles, He causes a new cycle of life). Everything in the world - matter, energy, the cosmos - is from the Supreme Being.

You must read the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, the two Hindu epics. It is breathtaking. These two epics involve the incarnation of Lord Vishnu on earth. Lord Vishnu has had nine incarnations so far, one is yet to happen. Ramayana is about the events of one of His incarnations as Lord Ram. Mahabharata is about another of his incarnations as Lord Krishna.

 

[Penna]

I also think so, but on the other hand the fact that has to be corroborated so much, happening to such a small group of people and that the secrets can not be communicated makes me think, "why not make it easier?". Years ago I was in the sanctuary of Fatima, which was created from nothing, since it was only a village. It is very striking to see people on pilgrimage kneeling during many kilometers, by promises or sudden healings

I don't know why these things aren't made more obvious, but then, Jesus could have performed many more miracles to make sure everyone knew who He was, but He didn't. It's all about faith.

You talk about the people on their knees - I experienced a small but unexplainable "miracle" at Fatima. You'll remember all the steps up to the Basilica? Well, we were there on a very cold day and I have a problem with my knee, it was painful. I looked at the steps, started walking up (slowly) and suddenly I could feel something under my feet, like a spring (best way I can explain it). I bounced up those steps, no pain at all, I felt I was walking on air and I was being carried up.

I really don't know to this day what happened.

 

[botond]

any pastafarian brothers here ?

 

[Garethw]

I believe in God, I just don't believe in organised religions.

 

[AXVnee7]

Hindus believe that God is manifested in three forms or deities - Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver and Shiva the Destroyer (of cycles, He causes a new cycle of life). Everything in the world - matter, energy, the cosmos - is from the Supreme Being.

You must read the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, the two Hindu epics. It is breathtaking. These two epics involve the incarnation of Lord Vishnu on earth. Lord Vishnu has had nine incarnations so far, one is yet to happen. Ramayana is about the events of one of His incarnations as Lord Ram. Mahabharata is about another of his incarnations as Lord Krishna.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is to happen at the end of Kali Yug?

Sikhs also have a concept of Kali Yug.

 

[Nikhil]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is to happen at the end of Kali Yug?

Sikhs also have a concept of Kali Yug.

Yes, the last avatar is called the Kalki avatar and it will happen at the end of Kali Yug.

 

[Carolina Red]

I believe in God, I just don't believe in organised religions.

Pretty much where I am myself

 

[barros]

I am a practising catholic,those that goes to the mass on weekends.
I have been always quite linked with the church since my uncle,who unfortunately died last year was missionary all his life in Costa Rica,Nicaragua,Panamá,Perú.
He used to come every 3 years on holidays and was always nice to talk about all this stuff with him. He was very humble and quite modern so It was easy to feel confortable with him and tell him when his sermons have been very boring or irrelevant or the typical question "if god is good why he allows the illness and poverty?".
When I was older I lost a bit of interest.
I was in a Nun's college and I felt a bit forced to smile and participate in "Christian groups", an awful activity.
Most of my friends were the kind "I believe in god but I don't believe in the church" or ultra anti religion,adding some pretentious comment about how stupid was the religión, in every conversation.
So for a while I lost a bit of interest and even started reading books about Mary Magdalena,the secret years of Jesus,or a theory about Jesús dying in India.
Later,some years ago I found an ex priest (in the forum of Marca),he insisted about the faith,the most important of all this.
He talked to me about Medjugore ,where he had been and recommended me some nice readings.
At the end what you read and the people around you can influence your beliefs.
I feel that in Spain many people got tired of the extreme religious system with Franco and they don't want to believe or be involved,feeling that they will be brain washed,however my wife is polish and she and her family go to the mass really happy on Sunday,they enjoy their beliefs.
I am quite lazy to go to the church but my son had to do the first comunion so I had to go. Depending on the time can be very boring.Luckily in my church the priest is entertaining and knows to talk, there are a lot of kids,they bring drawings,offerings and there is music which helps a lot.
I have been in Fátima, and Santiago(close to my City),which is full of pilgrims all the year.
Obviously I have many questions, provoked for the swetened message of the modified bible and the lack of information about the life of Jesús.
Besides It seems that in Vaticano there is a current of thought saying that the church must understand the metaphorical meaning of Resurrection, as well as ultra conservative cardinals against some decisions of the Pope,who tries to open and modernize the church.

I'm catholic and I go to the mass on Sunday because my wife, like you I always question a lot of the Catholic Church, the protection given to pedhofiles, the riches showing by the bishops but always asking for money. I don't think I have any faith and when I go to the masses me and my son are always checking the futebol scores in other words if is hell I already have an appointment made to be there. But then we are in a world of atheists who laugh about religion but they believe in parallel worlds, in different universes which a black hole is the portal.

 

[carvajal]

I'm catholic and I go to the mass on Sunday because my wife, like you I always question a lot of the Catholic Church, the protection given to pedhofiles, the riches showing by the bishops but always asking for money. I don't think I have any faith and when I go to the masses me and my son are always checking the futebol scores in other words if is hell I already have an appointment made to be there. But then we are in a world of atheists who laugh about religion but they believe in parallel worlds, in different universes which a black hole is the portal.

In Spain, and I imagine that in Portugal too, there was a time when families with many children sent one of them to the seminary.
Many did not see it as a vocation, but as a career.
Logically they have some faith, but they ended up taking too much power. Their masses were often tedious, in which they dedicated themselves to scolding the neighbors.
Now I know some new priests, young, who started in this by vocation and everything changes.
They tell the same message in a much more enjoyable way. In any case the masses in Europe are very boring and they should learn from South America and Central America where they dance, there is food, etc.
It is incomprehensible to follow rules of hundreds of years ago. I would like to know when Jesus said that women could not be priests or something against gays.
I have too much conspiranoic shit in my head for this web http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_biblianazar.htm , but then there are aparitions and many more stuff that ends up tipping the scales.

For me the parallel universes and everything related to astrophysics does not change anything. Even assuming that there was a big bang, a time when everything started,it is still not explained why or who

 

[barros]

What do you think of the Marian apparitions? There are many that are quite unknown.
The one at Fatima is the one that surprises me more (although I do not know enough about the rest except Lourdes and Medjugorje).
It could be thought that it is nothing more than a fraud, but in this case the surviving child, Lucia, spent most of her life in a cloistered monastery, so I think that something shocking had to happen to her.
On the other hand these messages of the Virgin are usually communicated a posteriori. It would be well if they had said what was going to happen to the USSR.
The same thing happens in Medjurgore. Apparently Mirjana (one of the girls) will say two of the secrets days before they happen.
I also recently read to someone saying that the apparitions are just contacts with UFOs.
In any case, these apparitions, miracles, etc., happen in more religions?

However happened in Fatima was witnessed by 80000 people including journalists, wasn't a fraud.

 

[barros]

In Spain, and I imagine that in Portugal too, there was a time when families with many children sent one of them to the seminary.
Many did not see it as a vocation, but as a career.
Logically they have some faith, but they ended up taking too much power. Their masses were often tedious, in which they dedicated themselves to scolding the neighbors.
Now I know some new priests, young, who started in this by vocation and everything changes.
They tell the same message in a much more enjoyable way. In any case the masses in Europe are very boring and they should learn from South America and Central America where they dance, there is food, etc.
It is incomprehensible to follow rules of hundreds of years ago. I would like to know when Jesus said that women could not be priests or something against gays.
I have too much conspiranoic shit in my head for this web http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_biblianazar.htm , but then there are aparitions and many more stuff that ends up tipping the scales.

For me the parallel universes and everything related to astrophysics does not change anything. Even assuming that there was a big bang, a time when everything started,it is still not explained why or who

I asked a priest one day why catholic religion is so different from Jewish, shouldn't we follow the same religion with the difference we have messiah and they don't? No answer for that one.

 

[carvajal]

However happened in Fatima was witnessed by 80000 people including journalists, wasn't a fraud.

However you say that you don´t have any faith