Religion, what's the point?

[cesc's_mullet]

@McUnited - taking my question to you to this thread.

What evidence do you have to suggest that the story of Noah's Ark is real?

How did Noah, his sons and daughters manage to build such a colossal ship?

How did they manage to house all of the animals within it? How did they manage to feed them all. How did they manage to prevent them from killing each other lest one die and that whole species die out?

Did they have special conditions to house certain animals? For example heat lamps for the cold-blooded animals, etc. etc.

When did this flood apparently occur? The Bible suggests it occurred 4,000 years ago. So why did the Asian civilizations (that were around at the time) not notice the fact they were living underwater for a whole entire year?

I have many more questions if you wish to entertain them.

 

[McUnited]

@McUnited - taking my question to you to this thread.

What evidence do you have to suggest that the story of Noah's Ark is real?

How did Noah, his sons and daughters manage to build such a colossal ship?

How did they manage to house all of the animals within it? How did they manage to feed them all. How did they manage to prevent them from killing each other lest one die and that whole species die out?

Did they have special conditions to house certain animals? For example heat lamps for the cold-blooded animals, etc. etc.

When did this flood apparently occur? The Bible suggests it occurred 4,000 years ago. So why did the Asian civilizations (that were around at the time) not notice the fact they were living underwater for a whole entire year?

I have many more questions if you wish to entertain them.

Thanks for all the questions.
Although I'd be happy to have a crack at answering them, I don't feel the force of the supposed implications you presumably attach to these questions. There are many things in the bible that seem equally far-fetched from our understanding of science and how the world works. How was there plant-growth before the sun was created? How does a snake speak? How do you turn a staff into a serpent? How did a man manage to survive inside a whale? How did the polar bears have enough time to make it to the ark? How do you alter the chemical composition of water into wine everywhere? How did Moses part the Red Sea? Why did God allow the creation of evil? Why did God create the world if he knew it was going to fall? Why does he need to feel loved?

You can repeat the above until you're blue in the face but it won't make any difference to most Christians. Why? Because, ultimately, I suspect most Christians don't base their faith in God because of any evidence for Noah's ark or the pillar of salt that Lot's wife was transformed into. In the grand scheme of things, these are trivial details that don't affect their understanding of the central proposition that God exists and revealed Himself through Jesus Christ.

Let's turn this question back on you. One day you'll die. That may be the end. But it may not be. You may find yourself having to answer to God. If the best you can muster in your defence for your non-belief is 'You didn't provide enough evidence for Noah's Ark and I simply couldn't figure out how on earth the lions didn't devour the other animals, or whether the ark was equipped with heat lamps', then might I suggest that you're going to have to do better than that?

 

[dellboyy]

Let's turn this question back on you. One day you'll die. That may be the end. But it may not be. You may find yourself having to answer to God. If the best you can muster in your defence for your non-belief is 'You didn't provide enough evidence for Noah's Ark and I simply couldn't figure out how on earth the lions didn't devour the other animals, or whether the ark was equipped with heat lamps', then might I suggest that you're going to have to do better than that?

I'd have more important things to ask if indeed one of the thousands of gods we as a species worship did exist, like how could they allow such attrocities to happen on a planet of their creation. Basically along the lines of what Mr Fry says here, he's more eloquent than me.


Sorry if i hijacked the thread for a min there

 

[RexHamilton]

Thanks for all the questions.

Let's turn this question back on you. One day you'll die. That may be the end. But it may not be. You may find yourself having to answer to God. If the best you can muster in your defence for your non-belief is 'You didn't provide enough evidence for Noah's Ark and I simply couldn't figure out how on earth the lions didn't devour the other animals, or whether the ark was equipped with heat lamps', then might I suggest that you're going to have to do better than that?

I think most non-believers would have plenty of questions other than whether or not there were heat lamps on Noah's Ark. Also, you can't pass those off as trivial when you believe they are literally true, despite the fact that the idea of Noah's Ark is spectacularly ridiculous.

 

[McUnited]

I think most non-believers would have plenty of questions other than whether or not there were heat lamps on Noah's Ark. Also, you can't pass those off as trivial when you believe they are literally true, despite the fact that the idea of Noah's Ark is spectacularly ridiculous.

Spectacularly ridiculous it may be to you, and it of course does profoundly stretch the skeptic's credulity but that doesn't make it false.

 

[Big Andy]

@McUnitedFor example heat lamps for the cold-blooded animals, etc. etc.

Don't be daft, there was no electricity then...

They just used the dragons to warm them up a bit...

 

[RexHamilton]

Spectacularly ridiculous it may be to you, and it of course does profoundly stretch the skeptic's credulity but that doesn't make it false.

OK, but your only evidence for it is a book that is thousands of years old which is absolutely full of falsehoods and factual inaccuracies. There is literally no evidence of a worldwide flood in the timeline suggested by the bible. The idea of a wooden ship that big has also been proven to be impossible. Also, that certain animals are in certain parts of the world but not others makes the idea ridiculous. The old Kangaroo example is my favourite. "When Noah's ark finally rested atop Mount Ararat, the kangaroos stepped off and hopped 7,726 miles straight to Australia and without any opposable thumbs, they picked up every bone from their own dead as not to leave a trace of their migration. Remarkable isn't it?"

Also, I can't believe I'm even arguing this.

 

[Redlambs]

Thanks for all the questions.
Although I'd be happy to have a crack at answering them, I don't feel the force of the supposed implications you presumably attach to these questions. There are many things in the bible that seem equally far-fetched from our understanding of science and how the world works. How was there plant-growth before the sun was created? How does a snake speak? How do you turn a staff into a serpent? How did a man manage to survive inside a whale? How did the polar bears have enough time to make it to the ark? How do you alter the chemical composition of water into wine everywhere? How did Moses part the Red Sea? Why did God allow the creation of evil? Why did God create the world if he knew it was going to fall? Why does he need to feel loved?

You can repeat the above until you're blue in the face but it won't make any difference to most Christians. Why? Because, ultimately, I suspect most Christians don't base their faith in God because of any evidence for Noah's ark or the pillar of salt that Lot's wife was transformed into. In the grand scheme of things, these are trivial details that don't affect their understanding of the central proposition that God exists and revealed Himself through Jesus Christ.

Let's turn this question back on you. One day you'll die. That may be the end. But it may not be. You may find yourself having to answer to God. If the best you can muster in your defence for your non-belief is 'You didn't provide enough evidence for Noah's Ark and I simply couldn't figure out how on earth the lions didn't devour the other animals, or whether the ark was equipped with heat lamps', then might I suggest that you're going to have to do better than that?

I have a genuine question:

Why would we have to do better than that?

 

[McUnited]

I'd have more important things to ask if indeed one of the thousands of gods we as a species worship did exist, like how could they allow such attrocities to happen on a planet of their creation. Basically along the lines of what Mr Fry says here, he's more eloquent than me.


Sorry if i hijacked the thread for a min there

If you acknowledge the thousands of gods, do you think it likely that a god exists? Or to put it another way, does a god-shaped hole in the species' hearts point to the existence of a deity?

Stephen Fry's outrage is understandable. I think Job chapter 38 offers one response, though I suspect it won't satisfy those who don't believe anyway --> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+38-42&version=KJV

 

[Dobba]

Spectacularly ridiculous it may be to you, and it of course does profoundly stretch the skeptic's credulity but that doesn't make it false.

So why not believe in every single religion?

 

[Big Andy]

OK, but your only evidence for it is a book that is thousands of years old which is absolutely full of falsehoods and factual inaccuracies. There is literally no evidence of a worldwide flood in the timeline suggested by the bible. The idea of a wooden ship that big has also been proven to be impossible. Also, that certain animals are in certain parts of the world but not others makes the idea ridiculous. The old Kangaroo example is my favourite. "When Noah's ark finally rested atop Mount Ararat, the kangaroos stepped off and hopped 7,726 miles straight to Australia and without any opposable thumbs, they picked up every bone from their own dead as not to leave a trace of their migration. Remarkable isn't it?"

Also, I can't believe I'm even arguing this.

Also, how did the Polar Bears get to the boat in the first place?

 

[McUnited]

OK, but your only evidence for it is a book that is thousands of years old which is absolutely full of falsehoods and factual inaccuracies. There is literally no evidence of a worldwide flood in the timeline suggested by the bible. The idea of a wooden ship that big has also been proven to be impossible. Also, that certain animals are in certain parts of the world but not others makes the idea ridiculous. The old Kangaroo example is my favourite. "When Noah's ark finally rested atop Mount Ararat, the kangaroos stepped off and hopped 7,726 miles straight to Australia and without any opposable thumbs, they picked up every bone from their own dead as not to leave a trace of their migration. Remarkable isn't it?"

Also, I can't believe I'm even arguing this.

I haven't studied the evidence for a worldwide flood because it's a non-issue for me. But I'm sure Google would be able to find something. Just out of interest, do you have any evidence for the existence of your great-great-great grandfather, except for your own existence?

Would you accept the possibility that if there is a God that created the entire universe, he might also also be capable of supporting a wooden ship on water?

 

[McUnited]

So why not believe in every single religion?

Um... They make different claims so they can't all be right.

 

[McUnited]

Also, how did the Polar Bears get to the boat in the first place?

This doesn't strike me as a killer argument. If you first of all accept that God exists, and that he has the power to create the entire universe, moving a couple of polar bears across the earth shouldn't cause much difficulty! If you don't accept his existence, then of course it becomes a lot harder to explain.

 

[dellboyy]

If you acknowledge the thousands of gods, do you think it likely that a god exists? Or to put it another way, does a god-shaped hole in the species' hearts point to the existence of a deity?

For me no, the existence of belief, and the actual existence of the subject believed in are not related. Otherwise all kinds of insane fairytale characters like Santa and the Easter Bunny would be running around.

Belief in god and religion for me has always been about three things. The first as a way for uneducated civilisations to explain natural phenomenon such as the sun and moon. They can't explain it, it seems all powerful, it's a god... i guess you could also classify creation of life under that too.

Then there's a persons natural need to search for something better in life to latch onto to give them hope, so for example whether that's personal tragedies, addictions, or the unforunatate circumstances you were born under. Country at war, extreme poverty, dictatorship etc.

Then there's the standard practice of passing belief onto children. In countries like England, where christianity really isn't a factor any more for the majority of people, the 'belief' isn't passed onto easily susceptible children, and starts to die out. This practice isn't just related to religion, but any social situaion. For example in simplistic terms, if you tell a enough children white people are better than black, they'll believe it and a racist society will grow. Places like the middle east, and america, where religion is still a massive part of adult life, means it's passed on to children, and the cycle of belief continues.

So for me there's really no relation to mass belief in deities making any difference in the chance of one existing.

 

[Dobba]

Um... They make different claims so they can't all be right.

It of course does profoundly stretch the religious person's credulity but that doesn't make them false.

 

[McUnited]

It of course does profoundly stretch the religious person's credulity but that doesn't make them false.

I don't follow.

 

[Redlambs]

I have a genuine question:

Why would we have to do better than that?

@McUnited you may have missed this question mate.

 

[McUnited]

For me no, the existence of belief, and the actual existence of the subject believed in are not related. Otherwise all kinds of insane fairytale characters like Santa and the Easter Bunny would be running around.

Belief in god and religion for me has always been about three things. The first as a way for uneducated civilisations to explain natural phenomenon such as the sun and moon. They can't explain it, it seems all powerful, it's a god... i guess you could also classify creation of life under that too.

Then there's a persons natural need to search for something better in life to latch onto to give them hope, so for example whether that's personal tragedies, addictions, or the unforunatate circumstances you were born under. Country at war, extreme poverty, dictatorship etc.

Then there's the standard practice of passing belief onto children. In countries like England, where christianity really isn't a factor any more for the majority of people, the 'belief' isn't passed onto easily susceptible children, and starts to die out. This practice isn't just related to religion, but any social situaion. For example in simplistic terms, if you tell a enough children white people are better than black, they'll believe it and a racist society will grow. Places like the middle east, and america, where religion is still a massive part of adult life, means it's passed on to children, and the cycle of belief continues.

So for me there's really no relation to mass belief in deities making any difference in the chance of one existing.

Even if I were to agree with you on the three reasons you bring up (which I don't), they say nothing about the truth of the proposition that God exists. Just because the way in which a belief originated is flawed, doesn't mean the conclusion is therefore false.

 

[dellboyy]

Even if I were to agree with you on the three reasons you bring up (which I don't), they say nothing about the truth of the proposition that God exists. Just because the way in which a belief originated is flawed, doesn't mean the conclusion is therefore false.

The problem is truth is an unprovable concept when it comes to religion, there's currently no way for proof to exist, not is there a shred of evidence.

That only leaves us belief based on faith. Which isn't a truth, it's a hope, it's living your life a certain way in the hope and faith that the deity you've chosen to believe in exists. That belief has to originate from somewhere, and that's for me where my earlier post comes in.

For some reason, the religious seem to rely on the truth of a god originating from the fact that enough people believe in it. If enough people believed in a sack of potatoes acting as a parachute while jumping from a plane that wouldn't make it true.

 

[RexHamilton]

I haven't studied the evidence for a worldwide flood because it's a non-issue for me. But I'm sure Google would be able to find something. Just out of interest, do you have any evidence for the existence of your great-great-great grandfather, except for your own existence?

Would you accept the possibility that if there is a God that created the entire universe, he might also also be capable of supporting a wooden ship on water?

So magic is your argument. Good talk. I'm out.

 

[McUnited]

The problem is truth is an unprovable concept when it comes to religion, there's currently no way for proof to exist, not is there a shred of evidence.

That only leaves us belief based on faith. Which isn't a truth, it's a hope, it's living your life a certain way in the hope and faith that the deity you've chosen to believe in exists. That belief has to originate from somewhere, and that's for me where my earlier post comes in.

For some reason, the religious seem to rely on the truth of a god originating from the fact that enough people believe in it. If enough people believed in a sack of potatoes acting as a parachute while jumping from a plane that wouldn't make it true.

I disagree with your assertion that there isn't a shred of evidence, but the rest of your argument cuts both ways. Atheism is also based on faith. Perhaps some people hope it is true.

The argument that the idea of the 'God-shaped hole' suggests the existence of a God is more subtle than the sack of potatoes parachute caricature that you drew.

 

[McUnited]

So magic is your argument. Good talk. I'm out.

God doesn't do magic.

 

[RexHamilton]

I disagree with your assertion that there isn't a shred of evidence, but the rest of your argument cuts both ways. Atheism is also based on faith. Perhaps some people hope it is true.

The argument that the idea of the 'God-shaped hole' suggests the existence of a God is more subtle than the sack of potatoes parachute caricature that you drew.

Yeah. Atheism isn't based on faith.

 

[RexHamilton]

God doesn't do magic.

How did the Kangaroos get to Australia then?

 

[Zlaatan]

This doesn't strike me as a killer argument. If you first of all accept that God exists, and that he has the power to create the entire universe, moving a couple of polar bears across the earth shouldn't cause much difficulty! If you don't accept his existence, then of course it becomes a lot harder to explain.

Why are there never any real straight answers about what "should be" the most clear cut topic of them all? You could answer every single question here with "because god, and if you're not a believer you won't get it", and no one could really argue that. It's the grandest get out of jail free card in the history of debating.
I just think that the creator of the universe would be able to present a better case than that. For someone who supposedly created literally everything by snapping his fingers, one ghostwritten book released in one small part of the world in a time where camels were the fanciest transportation around is perhaps not the best way to tell everyone that you are their god. He can ship polar bears and kangaroos across the globe but can't distribute a book (or himself) to more than one place? A book which is filled with inaccuracies, horrible commands and "tests" and supposed miracles, which are all downplayed or interpreted in more and more elaborate ways the more they are talked about.

 

[dellboyy]

I disagree with your assertion that there isn't a shred of evidence, but the rest of your argument cuts both ways. Atheism is also based on faith. Perhaps some people hope it is true.

The argument that the idea of the 'God-shaped hole' suggests the existence of a God is more subtle than the sack of potatoes parachute caricature that you drew.

Atheism isn't faith based, it's evidence based. There's no hoping that god doesn't exist, there just isn't any evidence that any deity exists outside of the mind of believers.

 

[Redlambs]

I disagree with your assertion that there isn't a shred of evidence, but the rest of your argument cuts both ways. Atheism is also based on faith. Perhaps some people hope it is true.

The argument that the idea of the 'God-shaped hole' suggests the existence of a God is more subtle than the sack of potatoes parachute caricature that you drew.

Yeah, that's complete nonsense. Also:

I have a genuine question:

Why would we have to do better than that?

For the third time now.

 

[McUnited]

Yeah. Atheism isn't based on faith.

You believe in it, don't you?

 

[McUnited]

How did the Kangaroos get to Australia then?

No idea! But then I'm not the omniscient one.

 

[nick2004]

You believe in it, don't you?

I believe 1+1=2. This is not "faith".

 

[McUnited]

Why are there never any real straight answers about what "should be" the most clear cut topic of them all? You could answer every single question here with "because god, and if you're not a believer you won't get it", and no one could really argue that. It's the grandest get out of jail free card in the history of debating.
I just think that the creator of the universe would be able to present a better case than that. For someone who supposedly created literally everything by snapping his fingers, one ghostwritten book released in one small part of the world in a time where camels were the fanciest transportation around is perhaps not the best way to tell everyone that you are their god. He can ship polar bears and kangaroos across the globe but can't distribute a book (or himself) to more than one place? A book which is filled with inaccuracies, horrible commands and "tests" and supposed miracles, which are all downplayed or interpreted in more and more elaborate ways the more they are talked about.

I think what He's achieved is magnificent, in that He's revealed of Himself just the right amount so that we can freely choose to come to know Him. If it was a slam dunk case, would people come to know him out of choice or out of necessity?

 

[McUnited]

I believe 1+1=2. This is not "faith".

And that's your argument for what, precisely? I, too, believe 1+1=2.

 

[RexHamilton]

You believe in it, don't you?

I don't "believe" in atheism. I'm atheist because I don't believe in yours, or any other god.

 

[Pexbo]

And that's your argument for what, precisely? I, too, believe 1+1=2.

You're mixing up the different definitions of faith. In religious terms, atheism is the absence of faith.

 

[McUnited]

Yeah, that's complete nonsense. Also:




For the third time now.

To answer your question... let's say He tells you He provided plenty of evidence of His existence. What evidence? I suspect you'd reply. Well, He might say, I created the universe, fine-tuned it, provided you with the idea of God, gave you an understanding of morality, an appreciation of aesthetic values, free-will, and sent Jesus.

And you'd reply 'ah yes, but were there any heat lamps in Noah's ark'?

I just don't think it would make much headway. I may be wrong, though.

 

[McUnited]

I don't "believe" in atheism. I'm atheist because I don't believe in yours, or any other god.

No, an atheist is someone who asserts the proposition that there is no God. It's a knowledge claim.

 

[McUnited]

You're mixing up the different definitions of faith. In religious terms, atheism is the absence of faith.

theism = I believe there is a God
atheism = I believe there is no God

 

[RexHamilton]

No, an atheist is someone who asserts the proposition that there is no God. It's a knowledge claim.

It isn't.

 

[RexHamilton]

theism = I believe there is a God
atheism = I don't believe there is a God

Fixed.