Giggs.... still giggs.... Briiuuutiful! Brilliantly done!
Revisionism: Which players have had their legacies embellished or reduced since retirement?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I would agree with you that Tevez wasn't very good that season, but Berbatov was definitely preferred.
When it comes to the matches they played, Tevez had already started 3 matches before we signed Berbatov. Berbatov started 29 league games to Tevez's 18. Tevez started 5 league cup games to Berbatov's 0.
Stats breakdown from when Berbatov signed*:
They started together 13 times - 12 PL, 1 FA Cup
Berbatov starts, Tevez bench 20 times - 15 PL, 5 CL
Tevez starts, Berbatov bench 7 times - 3 PL, 2 CL, 2 FA Cup
Berbatov starts, Tevez not in squad 3 times - 2 PL, 1 FA Cup
Tevez starts, Berbatov not in squad 9 times - 5 League Cup, 2 PL, 2 CL
I've left the CWC off the above as it's a bit murky. Tevez started both games, Berbatov 0. Berbatov was officially on the bench for both, but then the remaining squad of 12 players was, and Berbatov definitely had a virus for the semi final that ruled him out. Unclear of his status for the final.
*I've not double checked my working, there might be a tiny error somewhere, but that's the gist of it. Berbatov was relegating Tevez to the bench much more often than the other way around, and a larger chunk of Tevez's starts came when Berbatov wasn't in the squad, presumably either rested or injured.
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Ronaldinho. Becoming way too overrated because of his futsal skills and simply being active on social media. Great player but no way he was better than Ronaldo, Messi and dare I say even Robben.
Scholes. Since retired has turned into some sort of god. Never come close to individual success. Would be interested to know his highest finish in a balon dor ?. Scratch that how many times was he Man Utd poty in all his time there.
Now hes automatically up there with xavi pr zizou which is nonsense and people scoff that you cant put gerrard or lampard on his level which clearly during their playing career was not the case.
Now hes automatically up there with xavi pr zizou which is nonsense and people scoff that you cant put gerrard or lampard on his level which clearly during their playing career was not the case.
Alan Shearer. He was “just” a striker.” FFS
Cantona's speech on winning the UEFA President's Award just put him back up again.
It's been said by others but Keane was more consistently brilliant than Giggs and Scholes. Even in his last ever match for the club in which he passed a late fitness test, Keane always played in the big games.
In our best ever season in 99, Becks was voted 2nd for the Balon D'or and Keane finished 6th and I don't think Scholes or Giggs were even nominated, also Keane and Beckham were nominated for the PFA award that season with Keane winning it the following year. I'd take Keane 96-02 over just about any other player in terms of influence on United. By FAR the most consistent midfielder we had.
Or you don't.
I never said he wasn't great. He's just not on Xavi's level. Which isn't disparaging Scholes. Not many are on Xavi's level as far as central midfielders.
Robben
Just to make you understand how good prime Dinho was. IIRC Henry had an identical number of goals and assists in a club season that in the future precipitated first CR7, Then LM10 the first Balon Dor"s in, back in about 2004. Yet STILL Dinho comfortably beat him to the balon for and hardly anyone blinked....
It's not just that but both him not being on X players level and his peak being short of Beckham. Scholes was a different beast to Xavi btw. Yes both extremely technical midfielders but Scholes was something totally different. He was built for the english game. His long passing was the best ever.
Scholes has becomes the mainstream attractive "cool to like" thing now but back then he wasn't. He wasn't appreciated for what he did. Not winning BallonDo'rs doesn't mean much.
Solskjaer appears to be a Manchester United legend, but asides from wafting a leg out in 1999 did he actually do *that* much?
Thats my point, was he ever Man Utd best player in a season ? In all my life watching football no one barely had him top 3 most important player season in season out and he was nothing special for england either. But suddenly after retiring hes become some sort of footballing god that clearly wasnt when he was playing. The complete swing he has had is absolute nonsense, a top player yes, tiers above gerrard lampard not a chance, on the same level as xavi iniesta zizou is laughable.
Its not about not winning, its the complete lack of recognition when he was playing, just seen above he never even finished on the list, thats my point exactly.
Well - what do these guys know
Edgar Davids: "I'm not the best, Paul Scholes is
Luis Figo: "I’m star-struck when I see Paul Scholes because you never see him. On the pitch, you can’t catch him. Off the pitch, he disappears."
Cesc Fabregas: "He is the one whose level I aspire to. He is the best player in the Premier League."
Laurent Blanc: "I tell anyone who asks me – Scholes is the best English player."
Patrick Vieira: "The player in the Premiership I admire most? Easy – Scholes."
Sir Alex Ferguson: "I think Paul Scholes is the best player in England. He’s got the best skills, the best brain. No one can match him. There isn’t a player of his mould anywhere in the world. Paul is irreplaceable."
Marcello Lippi: "Paul Scholes would have been one of my first choices for putting together a great team."
Thierry Henry: "I can’t understand why Scholes has never won the player of the year award. He should have won it long ago. Maybe it’s because he doesn’t seek the limelight like some of the other ‘stars’."
My Point is - you are utterly, completely Clueless
You can do that for any player. Its not hard.Well - what do these guys know
Edgar Davids: "I'm not the best, Paul Scholes is
Luis Figo: "I’m star-struck when I see Paul Scholes because you never see him. On the pitch, you can’t catch him. Off the pitch, he disappears."
Cesc Fabregas: "He is the one whose level I aspire to. He is the best player in the Premier League."
Laurent Blanc: "I tell anyone who asks me – Scholes is the best English player."
Patrick Vieira: "The player in the Premiership I admire most? Easy – Scholes."
Sir Alex Ferguson: "I think Paul Scholes is the best player in England. He’s got the best skills, the best brain. No one can match him. There isn’t a player of his mould anywhere in the world. Paul is irreplaceable."
Marcello Lippi: "Paul Scholes would have been one of my first choices for putting together a great team."
Thierry Henry: "I can’t understand why Scholes has never won the player of the year award. He should have won it long ago. Maybe it’s because he doesn’t seek the limelight like some of the other ‘stars’."
My Point is - you are utterly, completely Clueless
This is actually embarrasing. These players werent voting for him when it came to the awards. Doesnt quite match what they say now.
Some more clueless individuals who don't rate Scholes that much
Pep Guardiola: “Out of everyone at Manchester United, I would pick out Scholes – he is the best midfielder of his generation. I would have loved to have played alongside him.”
Rio Ferdinand: “For me, it’s Paul Scholes. He’ll do ridiculous things in training like say, “You see that tree over there?” – It’ll be 40 yards away – “I’m going to hit it”. And he’ll do it!. Everyone at the club considers him the best."
Dimitar Berbatov: "Nobody else can play the way Paul Scholes does."
Lionel Messi: "At La Masia his name was mentioned a lot. He’s a teacher."
Zinedine Zidane: "My toughest opponent? Scholes of Manchester. He is the complete midfielder."
Pep Guardiola: “Out of everyone at Manchester United, I would pick out Scholes – he is the best midfielder of his generation. I would have loved to have played alongside him.”
Rio Ferdinand: “For me, it’s Paul Scholes. He’ll do ridiculous things in training like say, “You see that tree over there?” – It’ll be 40 yards away – “I’m going to hit it”. And he’ll do it!. Everyone at the club considers him the best."
Dimitar Berbatov: "Nobody else can play the way Paul Scholes does."
Lionel Messi: "At La Masia his name was mentioned a lot. He’s a teacher."
Zinedine Zidane: "My toughest opponent? Scholes of Manchester. He is the complete midfielder."
And ?Some more clueless individuals who don't rate Scholes that much
Pep Guardiola: “Out of everyone at Manchester United, I would pick out Scholes – he is the best midfielder of his generation. I would have loved to have played alongside him.”
Rio Ferdinand: “For me, it’s Paul Scholes. He’ll do ridiculous things in training like say, “You see that tree over there?” – It’ll be 40 yards away – “I’m going to hit it”. And he’ll do it!. Everyone at the club considers him the best."
Dimitar Berbatov: "Nobody else can play the way Paul Scholes does."
Lionel Messi: "At La Masia his name was mentioned a lot. He’s a teacher."
Zinedine Zidane: "My toughest opponent? Scholes of Manchester. He is the complete midfielder."
I can tell any of the scouse fans on here and they will pull up lists of players saying the same for gerrard.
Difference being unlike scholes when it came to voting players journalists and even fans voted for gerrard.
Like I said, I don't care at all about consistency, I'm only comparing them at their peak, at their absolute best.
If anything he was underrated during his career and truly appreciated by a wider audience once he retired. I’m a Pogba fan but I’d swap Pogba in a heartbeat for a 30 year old Scholes, never mind a peak Scholes. Absolute hub of one of the most successful teams in PL history.
Walks into any side in the league currently as well imo
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It's not nonsense at all. Messi can't even do an elastico. His dribbling consists only in short bursts of acceleration coupled with changes of direction.
Ronaldinho could do anything with a ball, Messi cannot.
You didn't exactly retort the point he made.Well - what do these guys know
Edgar Davids: "I'm not the best, Paul Scholes is
Luis Figo: "I’m star-struck when I see Paul Scholes because you never see him. On the pitch, you can’t catch him. Off the pitch, he disappears."
Cesc Fabregas: "He is the one whose level I aspire to. He is the best player in the Premier League."
Laurent Blanc: "I tell anyone who asks me – Scholes is the best English player."
Patrick Vieira: "The player in the Premiership I admire most? Easy – Scholes."
Sir Alex Ferguson: "I think Paul Scholes is the best player in England. He’s got the best skills, the best brain. No one can match him. There isn’t a player of his mould anywhere in the world. Paul is irreplaceable."
Marcello Lippi: "Paul Scholes would have been one of my first choices for putting together a great team."
Thierry Henry: "I can’t understand why Scholes has never won the player of the year award. He should have won it long ago. Maybe it’s because he doesn’t seek the limelight like some of the other ‘stars’."
My Point is - you are utterly, completely Clueless
You've picked up a few quotes from a few people. But where was the recognition from the wider public in general when it came to actual votes? If he was so recognised as being that great, how did (im guessing the amount here) Man Utd fans vote when it came to their player of the season? How did fellow professionals vote when it came to PFA voting? Surely all those footballers who rated him so would have voted for him? And what about the journalists in England? What about globally when it came to the Balon Dor?
And didn't England move Scholes to left midfield to accommodate Lampard and Gerrard? Why didn't they keep him in centre midfield and work around him?
Paul Scholes was a great player, but Xavi is a easily a level above.
Beckham's 1998-1999 seasons trumps any of Scholes' for me.
Was 2nd in the Ballon D'Or voting too. Scholes never came close to that.
Hardly a daft viewpoint to have.
Exactly my point. Noone give a shit when he was playing no one would have him in a top 10 in the world through out his career.
Heck united fans themselves never voted this god of football poty themselves. He was a good player but one of the most overrated players going since he retired.
I don’t think people remember how good Carrick was.
He was the only constant in midfield for the most successful period the clubs every had.
He was the only constant in midfield for the most successful period the clubs every had.
Boring.Well - what do these guys know
Edgar Davids: "I'm not the best, Paul Scholes is
Luis Figo: "I’m star-struck when I see Paul Scholes because you never see him. On the pitch, you can’t catch him. Off the pitch, he disappears."
Cesc Fabregas: "He is the one whose level I aspire to. He is the best player in the Premier League."
Laurent Blanc: "I tell anyone who asks me – Scholes is the best English player."
Patrick Vieira: "The player in the Premiership I admire most? Easy – Scholes."
Sir Alex Ferguson: "I think Paul Scholes is the best player in England. He’s got the best skills, the best brain. No one can match him. There isn’t a player of his mould anywhere in the world. Paul is irreplaceable."
Marcello Lippi: "Paul Scholes would have been one of my first choices for putting together a great team."
Thierry Henry: "I can’t understand why Scholes has never won the player of the year award. He should have won it long ago. Maybe it’s because he doesn’t seek the limelight like some of the other ‘stars’."
My Point is - you are utterly, completely Clueless
This isnt about him being a bad player. Thats clearly not the case. But hes not as good as he has become since he retired. Its not even underrated. No one gave him recognition at all when he played. Never even got into a 23 man shortlist or won pfa poty and most damning never Man Utd poty.
This doesnt fit this player a level above gerrard lampard and co alongside the greats. Theres a discprency that goes beyond him being underrated when he played.
*can't*, or doesn't? Deary me, there's no conversation to be had here, you're just wrong, and that's all there is to it.
I have seen a lot of outlandish things in this thread but this one is the very best. Ronaldinho at his best is the best player to ever play the game, unfortunately he only played that for 3 years. To compare R10 to Robben should be a crime!!!
I can only really remember from 96 or so onwards but i never really remember Shearer as being that good.
I guess you didnt see as many other matches back then.
His record obviously says otherwise but i just didnt see it, or at the least remember seeing it.
I loved watching him play. His goal vs Everton in 2002 is still fresh in my memory.
No I diagree with that. He was as brilliant as people say he was.
Crazy talk. Did you just say Robben was better than Dinho?
Scholes was brilliant but playing in a side that doesnt quite play the sort of football that he'd look an obvious star. We were a pretty direct team in those days. Judge him on his individual quality and you have a hell of a player.
He was no Zidane obviously but he can hang with Xavi.
Thats utter nonsense.
Xavi was the heartbeat of an era where Spain and barca won multiple titles and dominated games. The fact that neither spain nor barca (despite having messi) have that same level of control nor success speaks volumes.
This is what im talking about. He was brilliant yet why did it take 20 odd years later to realise this ? Why did his own fans never acknowledge his talent when he was playing especially as you say he could hang with xavi. Why did he not perform for england ? If he was that level a player they never would have shoved him on the wing. Heck why did fergie play butt over him plenty of times in the late 90s.
That person who said Messi can't do an elastico can't be serious
Agree on Ronaldo(both of them) and Messi.
Robben is not fit to lace Dinho's boots though.
Eeeeeeeeehhhhh....dinho was better than robben. But it's a lot closer than people are making it out to be imho
Also, i'd say xavi, iniesta, pirlo, busquets, xabi, gerrard, lampard, scholes, modric, redondo, ballack, simeone, davids, vieira, makelele, keane, emerson, schweinsteiger, kroos, kante, fabregas, david silva, de bruyne, pogba, deco, mascherano, essien, vidal
All belong on the same tier. With Xavi at the top, Pirlo and Iniesta on the podium, Davids and Keane complete the top 5.
Ok maybe Xavi is half a tier above, with the matthaus, falcaos, riveras and didis(best midfielders of their era)
Also, i'd say xavi, iniesta, pirlo, busquets, xabi, gerrard, lampard, scholes, modric, redondo, ballack, simeone, davids, vieira, makelele, keane, emerson, schweinsteiger, kroos, kante, fabregas, david silva, de bruyne, pogba, deco, mascherano, essien, vidal
All belong on the same tier. With Xavi at the top, Pirlo and Iniesta on the podium, Davids and Keane complete the top 5.
Ok maybe Xavi is half a tier above, with the matthaus, falcaos, riveras and didis(best midfielders of their era)
There are some crazy opinions here and there, but generally speaking there is a majority consensus about the ranking of modern day players (2000-present).
For attackers:
Ronaldo and Messi at the top
R9 and Ronaldinho were a level below
Then come Figo, Rivaldo, Nedved, Henry, Kaka, Neymar, Robben
As for creative midfielders:
the top tier includes Zidane, Xavi, and Iniesta
Pirlo, Modric and Scholes are in the tier right below
For attackers:
Ronaldo and Messi at the top
R9 and Ronaldinho were a level below
Then come Figo, Rivaldo, Nedved, Henry, Kaka, Neymar, Robben
As for creative midfielders:
the top tier includes Zidane, Xavi, and Iniesta
Pirlo, Modric and Scholes are in the tier right below
The ronaldinho hype train is way overblown. His 2 years of peak with Barca were highly memorable and entertaining but no way he is the best ever to play to game. In fact I don't think he will make the top 15 ATG list.
And despite winning a WC with Brazil he never really shone for them. Rivaldo and Ronaldo were the true stars of that 2002 Champion.
Robben on the otherhand is underrated. Imo he is the greatest winger of his generation.
And despite winning a WC with Brazil he never really shone for them. Rivaldo and Ronaldo were the true stars of that 2002 Champion.
Robben on the otherhand is underrated. Imo he is the greatest winger of his generation.
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Actually I am.That person who said Messi can't do an elastico can't be serious