Revisionism: Which players have had their legacies embellished or reduced since retirement?

[K13]

Michael Carrick has, since he retired, gone from being just Michael Carrick to being the Gold Standard of defensive midfielders I think, at least on the caf.

He was a good player, of course, but on the grand scheme of things, he was just Michael Carrick. Now every young midfielder is ‘the new Michael Carrick’ and needs to aspire to be him.

I think that happened because he was constantly overlooked by England. We knew how important he was because we could see how well he read the game and that his anticipation was so exceptional he did not need to go flying into tackles but could just intercept. I guess because England play far less games that some supporters/managers never really appreciated what he could do especially when his style was not 'passionate' in the literal physical sense that they were use to.Ray Wilkins was the same type of player and he was viewed with a little suspicion by English supporters.

 

[Lay]

I think that happened because he was constantly overlooked by England. We knew how important he was because we could see how well he read the game and that his anticipation was so exceptional he did not need to go flying into tackles but could just intercept. I guess because England play far less games that some supporters/managers never really appreciated what he could do especially when his style was not 'passionate' in the literal physical sense that they were use to.Ray Wilkins was the same type of player and he was viewed with a little suspicion by English supporters.

He played poorly for England when he did play

 

[Lentwood]

Seba Veron is often derided as a total flop at United when he was actually quite good. Never hit the heights expected but that was mainly due to SAF never really finding him a settled position in the side. Plus, he was playing in a world-class team, many posters who lazily write off his time at United would be amazed at his God-like genius where he playing in this current side!

 

[K13]

He played poorly for England when he did play

Carrick

Perhaps sometimes but I don't think that was the case always. I think because he read the game so well and was a proactive player it worked well for us because we had a system. Felt England were the opposite as sometimes unbalanced and reactive.

Italy had Del Pierro and Baggio but never tried to showhorn them into the same team as we did Lampard and Gerrard.

 

[paraguayo]

Seedorf is an all-time great for me but no one seems to rate him this highly. They kinda forget him or stash him below Gullit, Riijkaard and others.

 

[DWelbz19]

Shearer. Despite his amazing goals and technique, he peaked in 95 and never improved after that. The Euro 96 could have been his big chance. He didn't win anything with Newcastle if not mistaken.

His PL record is just absurd, though. 260 goals. Just to add some context to it: Harry Kane at 26 has scored 20+ goals 4 seasons in a row. He's on 127 at the moment. To actually match Shearer's record, he'll need to get 20+ goals for another 6 seasons. That's pretty fecking batshit.

I don't know when it'll be beaten. I don't think we'll see it for a while.

 

[Gio]

Shearer. Despite his amazing goals and technique, he peaked in 95 and never improved after that. The Euro 96 could have been his big chance. He didn't win anything with Newcastle if not mistaken.

Played very well at Euro 96 though. He'd went into the tournament under pressure on the back of a barren run in England friendlies, but scored huge goals against Scotland, Holland and Germany - 5 goals in 5 games - and converted both of his penalties in the two shoot-outs.

 

[Lay]

Carrick

Perhaps sometimes but I don't think that was the case always. I think because he read the game so well and was a proactive player it worked well for us because we had a system. Felt England were the opposite as sometimes unbalanced and reactive.

Italy had Del Pierro and Baggio but never tried to showhorn them into the same team as we did Lampard and Gerrard.

I recall a few England games when Carrick was a passenger. He would look really slow for England (he’s not the fastest I know) but maybe he just wasn’t suited for the national team.

The whole thing about him being underused is false in my opinion, when he did play, the whole team seemed to struggle (Croatia, Montenegro, Ecuador etc).

 

[GatoLoco]

He was a fantastic player, absolutely no doubt about it, but when people compare him with Messi or Maradona I really don't know what to say.

I don't think so many people compare him with Messi or Maradona to be honest.

One thing is to say he was overrated, other thing is to say he was overrated that much.

 

[RedTiger]

He played poorly for England when he did play

The system was never set up to bring the best out of players, the system was set up to fit as many stars into the team as possible.

 

[shamans]

I would like to mention Tevez. People forget just how good he was.

 

[Beachryan]

For me given when I started being able to watch United consistently I find today's fans looks at both Park and Fletcher with very rose-tinted glasses.

Fletch was genuinely great for at most 9 months of his career, the rest of the time he was decent but not great. Really think it was the desperation to believe the CL final would have been different with him.

Park was another decent one, buoyed by one or two strategic duels in high-profile matches. It used to bug me, so I did an analysis on here years ago and we were 33% more likely to drop points in the league when he started over a 3 year span. Admittedly, we didn't drop a lot of points back then, but he was a forward that didn't offer numbers, and most matches we didn't need someone being defensive up front. The good old days. Now he'd be our starting rwf.

 

[Casanova85]

Fletcher and Park would vastly improve Man Utd 19-20.

 

[Sandikan]

Seba Veron is often derided as a total flop at United when he was actually quite good. Never hit the heights expected but that was mainly due to SAF never really finding him a settled position in the side. Plus, he was playing in a world-class team, many posters who lazily write off his time at United would be amazed at his God-like genius where he playing in this current side!

This is very true.
I get the feeling people would try and put Pogba in this sort of box too.

Veron would have been an absolutely key midfielder for us this last 6 or more years. Just bad timing to bring him into what was already a terrific lineup.

 

[Sandikan]

For me given when I started being able to watch United consistently I find today's fans looks at both Park and Fletcher with very rose-tinted glasses.

Fletch was genuinely great for at most 9 months of his career, the rest of the time he was decent but not great. Really think it was the desperation to believe the CL final would have been different with him.

Park was another decent one, buoyed by one or two strategic duels in high-profile matches. It used to bug me, so I did an analysis on here years ago and we were 33% more likely to drop points in the league when he started over a 3 year span. Admittedly, we didn't drop a lot of points back then, but he was a forward that didn't offer numbers, and most matches we didn't need someone being defensive up front. The good old days. Now he'd be our starting rwf.

Fletcher I think for certain developed a near mythical status as a supreme defensive midfielder, both due to that missed final, and the illness later on. He had a couple of good seasons, but people talk say, Nani down for the same thing - when Nani for his couple of seasons was an absolute menace.

 

[Son]

Rival premier league fans never seem to rate Roy Keane. Who in my opinion is in the top 3 players I’ve ever seen at united alongside Ronaldo & Rooney. YouTube highlight reels point to Scholes as been a superior player but Keane did more for us over a season.

Worldwide definitely overrated is the nostalgia for Zidane & Ronaldo9. In the 90’s & early 00’s the World Cup was a huge deal.
I’ve heard people say Ronaldinho is better than Messi too which is just ludicrous.

 

[Abe144]

You never heard about John Barnes who I think is the best English player I ever saw. Could pass, shoot, dribble past defenders with finesse AND pace and had a brilliant football IQ. He could do it all

 

[Bogdannn]

Rival premier league fans never seem to rate Roy Keane. Who in my opinion is in the top 3 players I’ve ever seen at united alongside Ronaldo & Rooney. YouTube highlight reels point to Scholes as been a superior player but Keane did more for us over a season.

Worldwide definitely overrated is the nostalgia for Zidane & Ronaldo9. In the 90’s & early 00’s the World Cup was a huge deal.
I’ve heard people say Ronaldinho is better than Messi too which is just ludicrous.

Keane is nowhere near the top 3. Cantona, Giggs, CR7, Rooney, Scholes, Van Nistelroy - they were all superior to Keane. And these are modern players, you've also got the absolute legend which is George Best.

The World Cup is also a huge deal now, it's the most important trophy in football. And it's not exactly nostalgia, when we compare players from different eras, most of us compare them when they were at their peak, we don't compare how their careers panned out. I agree with you that ZZ is vastly overrated, but the same can't be said about R9. He was just phenomenal at his peak, the best number 9 in history.
And Ronaldinho being better than Messi is not ludicrous, in my view he had a higher peak. Messi can only dream of the things Ronaldinho did with a ball.

 

[Jippy]

Keane is nowhere near the top 3. Cantona, Giggs, CR7, Rooney, Scholes, Van Nistelroy - they were all superior to Keane. And these are modern players, you've also got the absolute legend which is George Best.

The World Cup is also a huge deal now, it's the most important trophy in football. And it's not exactly nostalgia, when we compare players from different eras, most of us compare them when they were at their peak, we don't compare how their careers panned out. I agree with you that ZZ is vastly overrated, but the same can't be said about R9. He was just phenomenal at his peak, the best number 9 in history.
And Ronaldinho being better than Messi is not ludicrous, in my view he had a higher peak. Messi can only dream of the things Ronaldinho did with a ball.

You'd be one of very few United fans to rate Ruud''s legacy above Keane's (along with maybe Ruud's gran and his wife).

 

[Solius]

Giggs gets so much shit now from oppo fans that are too young to remember how good he was.

 

[Bogdannn]

You'd be one of very few United fans to rate Ruud''s legacy above Keane's (along with maybe Ruud's gran and his wife).

I don't necessarily rate Van Nistelroy's legacy above that of Keane, it's not about legacy at all as far as I'm concerned.
I'm simply comparing both players at their peak and I see Van Nistelroy as the superior player.

I'll give you an example so you can understand my logic. Most United fans would agree that Bobby Charlton has had a greater career with our team than George Best. But I consider Best the superior player by far.

 

[Frank Grimes]

Irwin was terrific but he often seems untouchable when his name crops up. Possibly because SAF loved him and he had a face like a very pleasant bus driver. But I don't recall him being that good.

Must be on the wind up.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Beckham for reduced. His peak play is better than Giggs and Scholes IMO.

Keane's also been reduced. He was a hell of a player(hell of a douche too).

Scholes for embellished(not that Scholes wasn't great, but people put him on Xavi's tier/level which is just ludicrous to me).

 

[Jeppers7]

Pirlo.

Only when he started being 'very good despite his age' did people start to consider him one of the best midfielders in Europe.

Also, he looks cool. I genuinely think Carrick playing in Pirlo's place would have been at least as effective, but wouldn't have received the plaudits due to being less cool looking. Seriously.

Carrick....definitely Carrick. He's getting compared to Pirlo, who ran games at the highest level, Carrick was a facilitator, he didn't run games. He rarely stepped up when it mattered and when pressed was a liability. He did have a very good season and along with RVP was fundamental to us winning the league. That season aside he was mostly alright. A facilitator for the better players he played with.

I wonder how he'd be considered if he signed for us five years ago and didn't play in a successful United team? He wouldn't make this team better.

 

[Siorac]

I would like to mention Tevez. People forget just how good he was.

He gets overrated, too, at least on the Caf: he really wasn't that good for United. He huffed and puffed a lot, often with little end product. In his first season he scored some important goals but his second season was quite poor overall. 5 league goals in 31 games...

 

[Jippy]

I don't necessarily rate Van Nistelroy's legacy above that of Keane, it's not about legacy at all as far as I'm concerned.
I'm simply comparing both players at their peak and I see Van Nistelroy as the superior player.

I'll give you an example so you can understand my logic. Most United fans would agree that Bobby Charlton has had a greater career with our team than George Best. But I consider Best the superior player by far.

Best and Charlton is closer. Was shame that Ruud only one title in that lean spell- he was immense in 02 and 03, but Keane's wider influence was in another stratosphere.

 

[Jordan_mufc]

Carrick....definitely Carrick. He's getting compared to Pirlo, who ran games at the highest level, Carrick was a facilitator, he didn't run games. He rarely stepped up when it mattered and when pressed was a liability. He did have a very good season and along with RVP was fundamental to us winning the league. That season aside he was mostly alright. A facilitator for the better players he played with.

I wonder how he'd be considered if he signed for us five years ago and didn't play in a successful United team? He wouldn't make this team better.

Bit of an outrageous post. Essentially calling Carrick a water carrier. Go and watch our matches against Pep's Barcelona to see how good he is when pressed.

This is also a quote from Guardiola about Carrick : "He’s one of the best holding midfielders I’ve ever seen in my life, by far. He’s the level of Xabi Alonso, Sergio Busquets in Barcelona and Bayern Munich.”

If you put Carrick into this United team then we would be so many levels above what we are now.

 

[shamans]

He gets overrated, too, at least on the Caf: he really wasn't that good for United. He huffed and puffed a lot, often with little end product. In his first season he scored some important goals but his second season was quite poor overall. 5 league goals in 31 games...

He was in top 3 strikers of the world

 

[shamans]

Beckham for reduced. His peak play is better than Giggs and Scholes IMO.

Keane's also been reduced. He was a hell of a player(hell of a douche too).

Scholes for embellished(not that Scholes wasn't great, but people put him on Xavi's tier/level which is just ludicrous to me).

Its obvious you dont understand scholes peak.

 

[United58]

He gets overrated, too, at least on the Caf: he really wasn't that good for United. He huffed and puffed a lot, often with little end product. In his first season he scored some important goals but his second season was quite poor overall. 5 league goals in 31 games...

That's because Berbatov was first choice, Tevez mostly got late game appearances. Berbatov managed 9 league goals that season...

Tevez was a cnut but a sensational player

 

[Jeppers7]

Bit of an outrageous post. Essentially calling Carrick a water carrier. Go and watch our matches against Pep's Barcelona to see how good he is when pressed.

This is also a quote from Guardiola about Carrick : "He’s one of the best holding midfielders I’ve ever seen in my life, by far. He’s the level of Xabi Alonso, Sergio Busquets in Barcelona and Bayern Munich.”

If you put Carrick into this United team then we would be so many levels above what we are now.

1. The Barcelona games we got totally dominated in midfield?

2. You think Foden is the most talented player Pep has ever seen?

3. How did Carrick get on with the United team once SAF Giggs and Scholes retired? How many levels above did he make that team?

 

[Jordan_mufc]

1. The Barcelona games we got totally dominated in midfield?

2. You think Foden is the most talented player Pep has ever seen?

3. How did Carrick get on with the United team once SAF Giggs and Scholes retired? How many levels above did he make that team?

1. Yes our midfield was dominated, but that was possibly the best midfield of all time, so it's no slight on us. My point being, Carrick was one of the only players that was able to retain the ball for us and played very very well under the press. Not sure where you got this idea from that he is inept when pressed.

2. Foden is a player under Guardiola's tutelage. It makes sense to boost him up and give him confidence as it will directly affect Guardiola's team. Flattering Carrick has no benefit to him, thus there's no reason to be skeptical about his comments.

3. How did anyone get on after SAF. Even RVP looked shot under Moyes etc. Carrick wasn't awful but admittedly he wasn't at his very best. Although, take him out of that team and we would have been considerably worse.

 

[fps]

Messi can only dream of the things Ronaldinho did with a ball.

Absolute nonsense hyperbole. I mean, honestly.

 

[Br1_ovi]

It was Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta (+Messi dropping without Ferdinand&VIdic chasing him) against Carrick-Giggs36yo. Not Carrick's fault.

 

[Siorac]

He was in top 3 strikers of the world

Not at United he wasn't.

 

[Siorac]

That's because Berbatov was first choice, Tevez mostly got late game appearances. Berbatov managed 9 league goals that season...

Tevez was a cnut but a sensational player

No that's a myth, very fitting for this thread. Berbatov started 36 games that season, Tevez started 34. Berbatov was subbed in 7 times, Tevez 17 times.

They had very similar overall contributions, too. Both were very much underwhelming that season.

 

[simplyared]

Michel Platini definately. Fecking genius on the pitch. Nowadays all we read about him is negativity!

 

[United58]

No that's a myth, very fitting for this thread. Berbatov started 36 games that season, Tevez started 34. Berbatov was subbed in 7 times, Tevez 17 times.

They had very similar overall contributions, too. Both were very much underwhelming that season.

In the league, Berbatov was preferred

 

[Jeppers7]

1. Yes our midfield was dominated, but that was possibly the best midfield of all time, so it's no slight on us. My point being, Carrick was one of the only players that was able to retain the ball for us and played very very well under the press. Not sure where you got this idea from that he is inept when pressed.

2. Foden is a player under Guardiola's tutelage. It makes sense to boost him up and give him confidence as it will directly affect Guardiola's team. Flattering Carrick has no benefit to him, thus there's no reason to be skeptical about his comments.

3. How did anyone get on after SAF. Even RVP looked shot under Moyes etc. Carrick wasn't awful but admittedly he wasn't at his very best. Although, take him out of that team and we would have been considerably worse.

Carrick was in and out of the team for three years after fergie retired. It made no difference. We were no better or worse with or without him.

You remember him as you want. The myth around him has certainly grown since he retired. If you think he played very very well in the Barcelona games we will certainly have to disagree. He was part of the problem in those games. He alone wasn't the solution in better teams than this, so I don't see Carrick being a player that would take this team levels above. He simply played in teams that were levels above.

 

[Siorac]

In the league, Berbatov was preferred

Even so, 5 goals in 19 starts is poor for a supposedly sensational player who wasn't much better in the other competitions either, except the League Cup.