Revisionism: Which players have had their legacies embellished or reduced since retirement?

[NoPace]

You're a crap judge of a footballer then.

Heinze was top quality until he injured himself. He had more talent than Silvestre, Silvestre had the better temperament.

Heinze wasn't great going forward but very good defensively. Silvestre seemed like he should have been a good LB because he was big, fast and could even cross at times, but I think a lot of CBs have those qualities and lack the subtle midfield-esque skills you need at fullback for a good team like creating space by dribbling (not aggressively with tricks, but more so against wingers chasing you down from an angle that allows some ball carrying, just not straight forward), finding passes infield with your weaker foot and playing short 1-2s. Basically all the stuff Brazilian FBs are good at.

 

[Jaybomb]

Scholes was a great player but I don't remember as many people raving on about him till those "Zidane quotes" came to friction. Then all of a sudden people started comparing him to Xavi and even Zidane himself. Madness. He might be our best midfielder ever and undoubtedly a legend but he was never on that level for me. Those guys are pioneers of the game. Scholes would be in the Lampard/Giggs/Beckham tier for me. Which is still a very good group.

Also comparing Pirlo to Michael fecking Carrick is an insult to the Italian. With all due respect to our Michael.

 

[POF]

He is better cause his teams were better than Scholes'?

Or you could just read what I wrote rather than intentionally misinterpreting it.

And Scholes was an integral part of SAF's era as Man United Manager. How is it then not even close?

Nowhere near as integral in a team that wasn't as good. He also did it at international level.

 

[buckooo1978]

Heinze wasn't great going forward but very good defensively. Silvestre seemed like he should have been a good LB because he was big, fast and could even cross at times, but I think a lot of CBs have those qualities and lack the subtle midfield-esque skills you need at fullback for a good team like creating space by dribbling (not aggressively with tricks, but more so against wingers chasing you down from an angle that allows some ball carrying, just not straight forward), finding passes infield with your weaker foot and playing short 1-2s. Basically all the stuff Brazilian FBs are good at.

Neither Silvestre or Heinze were top quality

Neither came close to being an Irwin or Evra

 

[buckooo1978]

Ryan Giggs has definitely seen his legacy tarnished to the point where it's practically pointless to fight against the tide, for example. Another obvious one on here is Roy Keane, who has come under all kinds of scrutiny that would have been laughable whilst he was active.

I don't understand this? Do you mean on a personal level? You must as Giggs and Keane would walk into most people's best 11s. They'd walk into any PL team at the minute.

You might not leave Giggs at home with your girlfriend but since when did that matter?

One of United's biggest legends was George Best who was one of our most unprofessional players, missing training for days, not turning up for a game etc

 

[RooneyLegend]

Or you could just read what I wrote rather than intentionally misinterpreting it.

I did, and that's what you basically said. 'he was the heartbeat of one of the ...' so i reckon its fair to deduce that just cause he played in that great barca side then he's better? Guess some could argue that Pique was better than Rio based on that logic?

 

[2cents]

What hurts Scholes in his comparison with Xavi or even Pirlo is his non-existent international career relative to those two. He was played through the middle from 1998-2002, but he never had a tournament even remotely comparable to Pirlo at WC 2006 or Euro 2012, let alone Xavi's dominance of international football from 2008-2012.

Also Schoes wasn't really comparable to Xavi or Pirlo before 2006 when he came back after his vision problems. So we're really only talking a couple of seasons from Scholes where he was in that role before he started to fade a bit. Pre-2006 Scholes was a different beast altogether.

 

[NessunDorma]

Paul Gascoigne.

And I can't decide whether he's become overrated or underrated since his retirement.

He won one 'major' trophy in his whole career, the FA Cup, and even then only played 17 minutes of the final before being subbed off due to an injury caused by his own bad challenge.

He then spent his peak years playing for Rangers in what was, with all due respect, a 2nd tier league.

Even his international exploits - which is what he's most famous for - saw England fall short of reaching a tournament final.

On the other hand, his ability to perform physically was curtailed by his mental health difficulties, and inparticular his binge eating and drinking. A Gazza without those problems may well have gone on to join, and win things with, a big European club.

A potentially elite level, world class player whose career was severely hampered by ill health, or merely a good one who did actually reach his peak level, which was never as high as some people claim it could've been?

 

[shamans]

Nowhere near as integral in a team that wasn't as good. He also did it at international level.

Again, not taking anything away from Xavi but it's an unfair comparison since he played in an incredible Spain squad as compared to England.

Xavi was one of the best players in the world in his prime, Scholes was never even close to being the best player in England even when Man utd was dominant.

That logic is not very convincing since Xavi wasn't even the best of his Barcelona team. Besides, I thought Scholes was one of the best players of the world in the 06-08 seasons especially.

 

[stevoc]

Rooney was the undisputed main man in United's attack for 2 seasons (2009/10 and 2011/12) - the only 2 in his United career where he scored 20 league goals. League winners in those 2 seasons were Chelsea and City.

The 3 seasons on either side the main attacking/goalscoring burden was carried by Ronaldo, Berbatov and RVP. Champions? United, United and United.

Yes, the squad wasn't as good in Rooney's best years. However, this was also why Rooney played so well in these seasons because the team was built around him. It wasn't good enough to win trophies. When investment came, Rooney played a different role, the "sacrificed himself" nonsense started again and he ended up being dropped.

Ffs mate are you really trying to argue Berbatov was our best attacker in 10/11 and drove us to the title?

Almost half his goals came in two games which we would have won anyway if he hadn't scored them. He was very good for the first few months of the season but was displaced by Hernandez and by mid season he wasn't even first choice anymore. He only scored 1-2 goals after January.

 

[CEOZucker]

Again, not taking anything away from Xavi but it's an unfair comparison since he played in an incredible Spain squad as compared to England.



That logic is not very convincing since Xavi wasn't even the best of his Barcelona team. Besides, I thought Scholes was one of the best players of the world in the 06-08 seasons especially.

He was 2nd best after Messi, laliga player of the year 2005, multiple top 3 finishes in the bdo, euro 2008 player of the tournament, are Heights Scholes never came close to reaching stop.

 

[Kentonio]

Michael Owen has been a victim of this. Joint top scorer in the league in his first season at 18, youngest England player and goalscorer at the time, 118 goals in 216 games for Liverpool, oh and won the Ballon D'Or. But because he pissed off the Liverpool fans by moving to United, pissed off the United fans by being a scouser and pissed off everyone else by being the most tedious commentator since.. well by being the most tedious commentator ever, his reputation has really slumped.

 

[Bogdannn]

No, he wouldn't He was playing for Inter when the likes of Bierhoff were outscoring him. On his entire career, he won a single time Golden Shoe. During his years the players who won it were: Machlas, Jardel (twice), Maakay, Larsoon, Kevin Philips and Henry (Luca Toni, Francesco Totti etc were later but he was finished by that stage).

Can anyone imagine Ronaldo and Messi getting outscored from Kevin Philips, Jardel or Bierhoff?

Also, him winning a single league title (and no UCL) in 10+ years playing for some dominant teams like PSV, Barca, Inter, Real Madrid (3 times winner of UCL in the 5 years before he joined them) and Milano is incredibly a poor record.

Ronaldo was a great player in international stage, but on club level he was the best player in Europe in a single season of his career.

1. Before his horrible knee injuries, R9 was exceptional, the best in the world by a country mile.
R9 adapted to the Italian style of the game in his first season. He had his best season ever in 97-98 at Inter, despite the fact that that Inter team was filled mostly with average players. He became a complete striker, and was involved in almost all of Inter's offensive play. He was dribbling and scoring on his own, assisting his teammates, he was the first-choice penalty taker, and he was taking and scoring freekicks.
Despite the fact that Bierhoff scored 3 more goals that season (28 to R9's 25), R9 was the superior player by far and was named Serie A Footballer of the Year. Plus he won the Ballon D'Or and the FIFA Footballer of the Year award. Bierhoff wasn't even the second best striker in the league, Batistuta and Del Piero were far superior as well.

2. The fact that you said he got beat to the Golden Shoe by the likes of Machlas, Jardel, Larsoon and Philips shows you have no clue about football.
In case you didn't knew, in the years those guys won it, R9 was injured for most of the time, so it's only logic that if you don't play you cannot score, therefore you can't win it. He missed the entire 2000-2001 season and much of the two seasons either side of it.

3. Now regarding him not winning the CL, again your comment shows that you have no clue about football. Some of the clubs R9 played for in the time span you mentioned never even got to play in the CL.
A) While he was with PSV, R9 never got the chance to compete in the CL. Only the league champions were eligible to do that.
PSV finished 3rd in the 1994-1995 season and 2nd in 1995-1996. Ronaldo was the top scorer in the league (with 30 goals) in his first season. His second season was marked by a knee injury which kept him out of most of the campaign, but he still averaged nearly a goal a game, (19 goals in 21 appearances). During his two seasons at PSV, Ronaldo scored 54 goals in 57 games.
B) R9 scored 47 goals in 49 games with Barcelona, but the team didn't play in the CL that year, so he never got the chance to compete for the trophy.
C) R9's first chance to win the CL came in his second season at Inter, but they got eliminated by Man United in the quarter final stages. As we all know, our team won the CL that year. It was a 2 leg match, and R9 only played in the game at San Siro.
D) When R9 came to Real, he was passed his prime. Still among the best in the world, by nowhere near the player he used to be before his knee injuries.
So were most of his teammates. That team was good offense-wise, but they lacked a proper defense, their biggest mistake coming from the fact they sold Makelele.
E) With Milan, he was already way past his best.
So to sum it up R9 had just 1 attempt to win the CL while he was in his prime, and he didn't play in the game Inter lost at Old Trafford, so there's no way to blame him for that loss. He had 4 attempts to win the CL after his prime (with Real).
By comparison, since he became a starting XI player for Barcelona, Messi has only won it 3 times in 14 years, and by playing with vastly superior teammates. Since Xavi and Iniesta left, Messi has failed to win a single CL.

As the poster you quoted mentioned,prime R9 would have no problem whatsoever in putting up the same numbers as Messi and CR7 or even exceeding them, were he to play in the star packed teams they've played in.

 

[BalanceUnAutreJoint]

The thing with Scholes is that the Zidane quote about him is fake, I've searched for a source and never found it be it in French or English.

 

[The Last Jedaiiii]

Solskjaer's reputation is getting him brownie points in a way that nobody doing what he is would ever get. He is tactically naive, a yes man and not confrontational in the slightest. The reason why Giggs would make a better Manager than Ole is because hes a leader.

Ole is a club legend but he is in the same way that David Fairclough is for Liverpool as opposed to a Kenny Dalglish or even a Souness. Liverpool sacked Kenny Dalglish to appoint Rodgers and sacked Rodgers not long after giving him a new contract.

 

[Eriku]

The thing with Scholes is that the Zidane quote about him is fake, I've searched for a source and never found it be it in French or English.

What about the Xavi quote?

What about the Lippi quote?

What about Xavi, Iniesta and Messi all crowding him to secure his shirt after the CL final in 2011?

What about Beckham stating that the one player everybody in the Real locker room were curious about was Scholes?

Make no mistake, he commanded a ton of respect among fellow professionals.

 

[Eriku]

Solskjaer's reputation is getting him brownie points in a way that nobody doing what he is would ever get. He is tactically naive, a yes man and not confrontational in the slightest. The reason why Giggs would make a better Manager than Ole is because hes a leader.

Ole is a club legend but he is in the same way that David Fairclough is for Liverpool as opposed to a Kenny Dalglish or even a Souness. Liverpool sacked Kenny Dalglish to appoint Rodgers and sacked Rodgers not long after giving him a new contract.

Good job spouting unsubstantiated bullshit. Yes man? Non-confrontational? How do you know these things?

 

[Casanova85]

Shearer. Despite his amazing goals and technique, he peaked in 95 and never improved after that. The Euro 96 could have been his big chance. He didn't win anything with Newcastle if not mistaken.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

The thing with Scholes is that the Zidane quote about him is fake, I've searched for a source and never found it be it in French or English.

There's a lot made of the quotes from all the top players. Personally, I couldn't care if they're true or not... if they watched him play, United fans shouldn't need an alleged quote from another great player to make them believe Scholes was a great player. He just was.

Solskjaer's reputation is getting him brownie points in a way that nobody doing what he is would ever get. He is tactically naive, a yes man and not confrontational in the slightest. The reason why Giggs would make a better Manager than Ole is because hes a leader.

Ole is a club legend but he is in the same way that David Fairclough is for Liverpool as opposed to a Kenny Dalglish or even a Souness. Liverpool sacked Kenny Dalglish to appoint Rodgers and sacked Rodgers not long after giving him a new contract.

Rubbish. You've just taken two players that the media said were "super subs" and lumped them together.

Fairclough scored a few goals mid 70s to help Liverpool title run-in (can't remember the year) and that goal v St Etienne when he was thereafter called supersub.

Solksjaer scored loads more goals for United (100 ish?) than Fairclough did for Liverpool and more important. Some were as sub obviously but Ole is remembered (1) because of 'that' goal but (2) because he was a talented, honest, very good forward who was an important part of our succcess. Fairclough was a journeyman 'ok' player and revisionism has made him something he wasn't.

And the rest of your post is just your views, completely unsubstantiated.

Maybe when Ole wears a tshirt for a racist, he'll be a legend in your eyes?

Shearer. Despite his amazing goals and technique, he peaked in 95 and never improved after that. The Euro 96 could have been his big chance. He didn't win anything with Newcastle if not mistaken.

Don't think he won anything bar the Blackburn title medal (boooo).

Didn't particularly like him as a player (bit nasty, the Ehioghu thing springs to mind) and think he's a shite pundit but if I'm honest, I thought he was an excellent centre forward. If you want an all-round forward, look somewhere else.... if you want goals, you can't go wrong with Shearer (in terms of British strikers in the last 20-30 years).

 

[Copa Mundial]

I'd go for Tony Adams.

During his playing days he endured howls of donkey chants, but on reflection he was in my opinion, one of the greatest centre halves ever to have played for England.

A great leader and an uncompromising defender.

 

[Gehrman]

Messi as brilliant as he is, played for the best club team most people have seen (Barca) here he helped them achieve some major trophies. He didn't do much on the international front, some may argue because he was part of a pretty average national side. On the other hand Maradona played for some pretty average Italian clubs and took them up another notch. He was a one man team in many ways and it took many players to try and stop him. He also played for what most thought was a bang average national side and systematically took them to another level.

Take Messi out of Guardiola's Barca team and they were pretty limp. That team was amazing at dominating possesion but it was Messi who was the cutting edge in scoring the goals.

 

[fps]

Scholes was a great player but I don't remember as many people raving on about him till those "Zidane quotes" came to friction. Then all of a sudden people started comparing him to Xavi and even Zidane himself. Madness. He might be our best midfielder ever and undoubtedly a legend but he was never on that level for me. Those guys are pioneers of the game. Scholes would be in the Lampard/Giggs/Beckham tier for me. Which is still a very good group.

Also comparing Pirlo to Michael fecking Carrick is an insult to the Italian. With all due respect to our Michael.

I don't know, you have to consider the greater competition in the PL, and the fact that those other players weren't being watched as regularly. Zidane didn't actually win that much with Madrid, he was incredible but his stats don't tell that whole story. Scholes is absolutely in that top bracket, there's a lot of mythologising over players from foreign leagues.

 

[Kostur]

Neville ever since he started being a pundit turned into a has-been-lucky/shit player because he says things people don't like to hear.

 

[fps]

There is less footage of a lot of the 70s and 80s greats, in a smaller talent pool, leading to a really vast overestimation of their mastery. You'd think they never did anything except transform the game of football, and it's just not true.

 

[Gehrman]

I think it's embaressing when people say that Luiz Ronaldo was streets ahead of Messi and C. Ronaldo. We can all agree that he's one of the greatest to play the game, but he won feck all in club football and Messi and Ronaldo have maintained his peak for 1 season for about 10 seasons. No matter his talent or natural potential, they have just surpassed by a mile apart from the international stage.

 

[AlwaysRed66]

Michel Platini, who will now be seen as a corrupt official, particularly by fans under 40, rather than the great footballer he was.

 

[Johnbouche]

Michael Owen Ballon d'Or winner. Had a brilliant 7-8 years with Liverpool and then injuries hit at Real Madrid, went on to play for us and was eventually disliked by everybody.

He talent is pretty much forgotten now as he peaked so young and then his reputation was ruined for crossing the divide.

 

[Casanova85]

Michel Platini, who will now be seen as a corrupt official, particularly by fans under 40, rather than the great footballer he was.

Unethical antics and smug tactics as a player too.

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

I think it's embaressing when people say that Luiz Ronaldo was streets ahead of Messi and C. Ronaldo. We can all agree that he's one of the greatest to play the game, but he won feck all in club football and Messi and Ronaldo have maintained his peak for 1 season for about 10 seasons. No matter his talent or natural potential, they have just surpassed by a mile apart from the international stage.

There wasn’t a single attacker in the 90’s who was anywhere near as good as C.Ronaldo, let alone Messi, forget it.
That doesn’t take anything away from Luiz Ronaldo, still comfortably the best no.9 I’ve ever seen.

 

[iHicksy]

I'd say Beckham doesn't actually get the recognition he should do in comparison to his talent. He was literally the best crosser of a ball i've ever seen. There hasn't been anyone even remotely close to him in the modern game. But, his crossing was just an extension of his amazing ability to put a wall where ever he wanted.

His passing was also sublime and on Scholes level technically, if not vision wise - and his set pieces were just incredible. You always felt it was more likely he would score from a freekick than not. I've not had that feeling about any footballer since. He also reinvented himself as a centre mid and was fantastic there into his mid thirties. I feel like his looks and fame maybe overshadowed people's perception of him and hence how good he really was.

Even on this forum he doesn't get the credit he deserves as he was truly world class and for the type of player he was and for his skillset he had few equals.

 

[Hoboman]

Rooney, Fabregas and Ozil are all pretty underrated as they peaked young and had mediocre recent seasons.

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

Rooney, Fabregas and Ozil are all pretty underrated as they peaked young and had mediocre recent seasons.

Mediocre is very generous of you, but yes, all three were very very special players at their best.

 

[GDaly95]

Evra's footballing ability gets overlooked these days imo.

Maybe because he's become such a 'personality' on social media and also because he constantly gets compared unfavourably to Ashley Cole and I've noticed over the years that United fans generally don't even take up the debate, which is surprising because I think Evra was definitely better. But yeah.

 

[Lay]

Rooney, Fabregas and Ozil are all pretty underrated as they peaked young and had mediocre recent seasons.

Agreed. They were all amazing players at an early part of their career. Two of them are World Cup winners yet they’ll probably fade into obscurity.

 

[Sandikan]

Evra's footballing ability gets overlooked these days imo.

Maybe because he's become such a 'personality' on social media and also because he constantly gets compared unfavourably to Ashley Cole and I've noticed over the years that United fans generally don't even take up the debate, which is surprising because I think Evra was definitely better. But yeah.

Very true.

There was a photo of him and Ashley Cole on fb the other day with something about the best 2 left backs in the Premier era.

The amount of people massively underplaying Evra, while expected of ABUs, was still incredible.

If you listen to the ABUs, there's very few players we've ever had that were good!

 

[Irwin99]

I remember reading an article when we bought Berbatov where the journalist said the Berba was not just Cantona's equal, but was in fact better than Eric and i thought what absolute nonsense. Outside of United fans (and even amongst some of us) I feel Cantona gets criticised for things which in hindsight don't appear to be all that fair to me. I was really young at the time so feel free to correct me but as i see it;

His record in Europe for United isn't great but with the silly foreigner restriction rule we didn't always play our best team. He was here for 4 and half seasons, two of which we weren't even in the European cup so it's not a good sample size.

His record for France, again, i'm not in full knowledge of France's circumstances at the time but his international record is 45 games and 20 goals which is decent for a creative player like him. He obviously had major problems with his temper and the French FA but that's not a bad goal record (i do wonder how many assists he had too)

The thing most of all I remember is that he was the THE face of the premier league during the time he was here. I do think that outside of United he's not quite given the credit he deserves by fans. Not many players have had as much influence on a title race as he did in 95/96.

 

[Rozay]

Michael Carrick has, since he retired, gone from being just Michael Carrick to being the Gold Standard of defensive midfielders I think, at least on the caf.

He was a good player, of course, but on the grand scheme of things, he was just Michael Carrick. Now every young midfielder is ‘the new Michael Carrick’ and needs to aspire to be him.

 

[Matt007a]

Platini was an unbelievable player. Would have been the best of his generation if he didn't play at the same time as Maradona. Easy to forget that with what he's done since retiring!

I agree with posts above about players who peak early. Ozil was incredible for a couple of seasons at Madrid and Fabregas at Arsenal was immense as well. You wouldn't know it if you saw them playing today.

 

[shamans]

Pirlo.

Only when he started being 'very good despite his age' did people start to consider him one of the best midfielders in Europe.

Also, he looks cool. I genuinely think Carrick playing in Pirlo's place would have been at least as effective, but wouldn't have received the plaudits due to being less cool looking. Seriously.

Pirlo was really good. This opinion you have seems to be a common one nowadays "he wasn't all that good just people fanboying over him" but he was considered a really good midfielder throughout his career.

 

[shamans]

Michael Carrick has, since he retired, gone from being just Michael Carrick to being the Gold Standard of defensive midfielders I think, at least on the caf.

He was a good player, of course, but on the grand scheme of things, he was just Michael Carrick. Now every young midfielder is ‘the new Michael Carrick’ and needs to aspire to be him.

Yeah, for sure. I do think Carrick got a lot of criticism here, undeserved as well, but people put him next to the all time greats in midfield now.