I think that is the whole point. They’re especially terrible people in the first few seasons but then it’s a bit more nuanced where they’re trying to do good but in horrible ways they don’t realise are bad. I never found it off putting that they’re horrible people though. Half the shows out there these days have got anti-villains and such.
Television Rick & Morty
- Thread starter Alock1
- Start date
They're all horrible but it's not like they succeed or get ahead because of it.
It's actually funny looking back on early season Dennis as the young ladies man to current mid-40's alone and borderline psychotic Dennis.
It's actually funny looking back on early season Dennis as the young ladies man to current mid-40's alone and borderline psychotic Dennis.
Also they’re mainly horrible to each other so it’s funny seeing them get shit from the other. It’s also just how frustrated Dennis gets with everyone and his reactions. But anyway this is the Rick and Morty thread.
Back on topic (after I dragged it away), I really enjoyed the new Rick & Morty episode. I appreciated the darker, more thematic turn the third season took, but this new episode was back to that immediate comfort-watch feel of the first two seasons. This is something they were clearly aware of ("He was an inferior Rick, he was too political - I want to have fun, classic Rick-and-Morty adventures like in the old days") and they really made it work. I'm still blown away by how they manage to expand and deepen the premise so much and still keep track of the continuity. Episodes should fall apart but they never do.
Oh... poop.
Morty telling his dad how the morning he felt like shit being his son.... and how it ended was really funny.
Morty telling his dad how the morning he felt like shit being his son.... and how it ended was really funny.
I'd just like to say it's becoming overbearing to see writers leaning too far into trying to get audiences to hate the anti-hero. The high horsing gets tired after a while.
Yes I'm speaking to you, writers for Bojack Horseman and Rick and Morty. "He needs to pay for his sons"... Why? How important do you think your show is in the grand scheme of things?
Well, Netflix will never release their "viewing figures" so I guess we won't know how important BoJack Horseman really is in the grand scheme of things, but I think that's missing the point. If someone is going to create a show where the main character murders people, or abuses people, or wrongs people, or is constantly selfish, or creates an entire universe to "power his break lights", then it would be unusual to ignore the consequences and ramifications of those actions. If people who commit wrongs in TV shows are constantly allowed to carry on unchecked, or are too safe from facing punishment simply because they're a protagonist, then audiences will lose interest. I don't feel like the writers of BoJack Horseman or Rick & Morty, or any show with a problematic protagonist, are using their characters to preach about anything in particular, it's just basic human decency to make sure that people who do bad things are called out for their actions.
Spoilers for BoJack Horseman. If you knew someone who got a bunch of kids drunk before dumping them outside a hospital without supervision, who tried to sleep with an underage girl simply because she reminded him of her mother, who had a one night stand with someone their best friend really cared for, who exploited a vulnerable young girl's addiction to the point where she died, who walked out on a gay friend to protect himself, who took their longest friend and former partner for granted, who encouraged a wife to cheat on their husband with him, who sabotaged a friend's career for his own ends, who strangled a co-star and friend, who deliberately staged a car crash to get access to pain medication... At the very least you'd just stop hanging round with them, right? And you'd probably advise the police about what they were doing, right? That's all the writers are doing. The less you punish someone for bad behaviour, the more you enable it. And the more you enable it, the more acceptable it becomes. As I said, it's just basic human decency to say "No, doing bad things is not okay."
I'm not sure that audiences will lose interest. Don't get me wrong, I'll watch regardless because they are brilliant shows, however historically, people have always rooted for the bad guy in the movies. Is anyone rooting for the DEA in Narcos? (If so please stay over there)
But we (me and you I think) know that regardless of who we root for, at the end it's not good to be bad. And I think that even with the 2 shows mentioned, they were realistic in terms of how the protagonists suffered due to their bad actions in the first 2 seasons (3 for Bojack). The next season was just an overload of the point, an idea of how they'd like life to be, as opposed to real life.
I'm ranting now I think
Keep going! Don't let me stop you. I live for these kinds of discussions - that's why I end up derailing threads like this one.
Keep going! Don't let me stop you. I live for these kinds of discussions - that's why I end up derailing threads like this one.
So let's focus on Bojack for a bit from this season.
He's gone to rehab. Starting to be better. And you simultaneously see those people (Gina, Kelsey) that he has harmed in the past, and they are struggling in the aftermath of Bojack. And the show does make a good point that you do have to put the work in to be better, and part of that is being confronted with the damage you've done, and being willing to put in the work to make things right. Fair enough.
What kills me is the probable punitive intent of the writers. "Bojack has been bad. He must fall, regardless of his current direction", as foreshadowed by Hollyhock meeting Pete Repeat. I dunno, at that point, it feels forced to me.
At this point it just hit me that Bojack lied about Sarah Lynn's death to the coroner, but that was before he decided to go to rehab. Ok, now I don't know what I'm trying to say now and this is how I know I'm ranting
What kills me is the probable punitive intent of the writers. "Bojack has been bad. He must fall, regardless of his current direction", as foreshadowed by Hollyhock meeting Pete Repeat. I dunno, at that point, it feels forced to me.
At this point it just hit me that Bojack lied about Sarah Lynn's death to the coroner, but that was before he decided to go to rehab. Ok, now I don't know what I'm trying to say now and this is how I know I'm ranting
Regarding Rick and Morty, the premise of the show was primarily, antisocial genius drags nephew along his universe benders. I think gamergate types are fecking weird. I do see the shift from a more action show to a more introspective view on Rick, and the elevation of characters deemed "intellectually inferior" (Beth, Jerry), that triggered the idiots. I didn't have a problem with it for the most part, it wasn't an objective, but more so a natural evolution of the show unlike Bojack. The rhetoric around the show about Rick being "toxic" got to me though. Like can we watch the show for 30 minutes and go back to being decent human beings about worrying about the few who actually view Rick as some sort of moral role model?
Shut up nerds
I deserved that
As for BoJack:
So let's focus on Bojack for a bit from this season.
He's gone to rehab. Starting to be better. And you simultaneously see those people (Gina, Kelsey) that he has harmed in the past, and they are struggling in the aftermath of Bojack. And the show does make a good point that you do have to put the work in to be better, and part of that is being confronted with the damage you've done, and being willing to put in the work to make things right. Fair enough.
What kills me is the probable punitive intent of the writers. "Bojack has been bad. He must fall, regardless of his current direction", as foreshadowed by Hollyhock meeting Pete Repeat. I dunno, at that point, it feels forced to me.
At this point it just hit me that Bojack lied about Sarah Lynn's death to the coroner, but that was before he decided to go to rehab. Ok, now I don't know what I'm trying to say now and this is how I know I'm ranting
Regarding Rick and Morty, the premise of the show was primarily, antisocial genius drags nephew along his universe benders. I think gamergate types are fecking weird. I do see the shift from a more action show to a more introspective view on Rick, and the elevation of characters deemed "intellectually inferior" (Beth, Jerry), that triggered the idiots. I didn't have a problem with it for the most part, it wasn't an objective, but more so a natural evolution of the show unlike Bojack. The rhetoric around the show about Rick being "toxic" got to me though. Like can we watch the show for 30 minutes and go back to being decent human beings about worrying about the few who actually view Rick as some sort of moral role model?
I think we'll have to wait and see the end before we pass judgement on what the writers were trying to say. I don't think BJ's beyond redemption, but so far he's been allowed to heal privately, quietly, and mostly on his own terms. I can't see that lasting long now the secret is out. If you like, season 6A dealt with BJ's private trial and now 6B will deal with the public one. He's a complicated character in a complex show written by intelligent people, so I don't think the ending they give us will be as simple as "BoJack can be redeemed" or "BoJack can never be redeemed" - it'll probably land somewhere in the middle and allow us to make up our own minds, likely passing comment on the way we deal with celebrity scandal and problematic faves in the process.
I could be wrong, but it's likely that 6B will analyse "call-out culture" (both its necessary value and its reductive hysteria) as it shows the public responding to BJ's crimes. How mob rule rushes to condemn before we find out the facts, how some factions of call-out culture let some celebrities get away with certain actions over others, how all a celebrity needs to be forgiven by the industry is time, distance, and a good speech writer, that sort of thing. I think the show will just gently remind us that BoJack is not necessarily a bad person, he's a complicated person who has done bad things. And let's not forget that Mr. PB has just had a new dose of fame coincide with some of his actions sliding into murky ethical grounds (cheating on Pickles).
I don't think we'll be left with definitive answers, rather we'll be left with the question of whether we're defined by our previous actions or the steps we take to make amends. And that's fine.
I could be wrong, but it's likely that 6B will analyse "call-out culture" (both its necessary value and its reductive hysteria) as it shows the public responding to BJ's crimes. How mob rule rushes to condemn before we find out the facts, how some factions of call-out culture let some celebrities get away with certain actions over others, how all a celebrity needs to be forgiven by the industry is time, distance, and a good speech writer, that sort of thing. I think the show will just gently remind us that BoJack is not necessarily a bad person, he's a complicated person who has done bad things. And let's not forget that Mr. PB has just had a new dose of fame coincide with some of his actions sliding into murky ethical grounds (cheating on Pickles).
I don't think we'll be left with definitive answers, rather we'll be left with the question of whether we're defined by our previous actions or the steps we take to make amends. And that's fine.
As for Rick Sanchez, I agree with you that quite a lot of people have a tendency to panic about TV characters and worry about how their portrayal influences society. We saw it a lot with Joker in recent weeks - all that worrying about the film radicalising a fraction of society, as if the producers of the film hadn't already considered that potential, as if we were the first people to consider whether entertainment media influences the public. It's not a million miles away from puritanical Christians frightening themselves with Marilyn Manson or Grand Theft Auto games. Most of the time, people just want to watch a 25-minute comedy to switch off, have fun, and forget about the real world for a bit. I can understand the concerns about Rick being adopted by the alt-right as some sort of messiah, but the fault lies with the alt-right idiots who don't know how to read a TV show properly.
But at the same time, I think creators are entitled to look at their own creations and analyse what they've wrought. When stories are separated into "Good vs. Evil" it's easy to parse the ethical arguments and digest them. Evil Master wants to kills Innocent Party A, so we know he's bad and that's why we cheer when Good Hero X kills him and saves the day. It speaks to our most basic moral codes as human beings. But what happens if Good Hero X has to sacrifice Innocent Party A in order to achieve his goal of defeating Evil Master? And what happens if the actions of Good Hero X and Evil Master can no longer be easily separated by simple ethical arguments? Do we start to justify Good Hero X's actions because of our previous connection to him as a hero? And if we do start to justify his actions, what does that say about us?
I think we're allowed to explore that question through TV and film.
As an example, take The Simpsons, and specifically 'Homer's Enemy'. In season 1, Homer is your typical downtrodden American. He works hard for almost no benefit or recognition, he briefly loses his job and contemplates suicide, he can't afford to buy Christmas presents for his family and humiliates himself to set things right. Fast forward to 'Homer's Enemy' in season 8, and we meet Frank Grimes. Another downtrodden American who works himself to the bone for little in the way of benefit or recognition. Since season 1, Homer has been to space, fought the Heavyweight Champion of the World, had hit singles with a band, etc. In other words, he has become to detached from the original version of himself. Enter Frank Grimes, who is driven to insanity and accidental suicide because he is understandably astonished at how someone so stupid has managed to achieve so much. That was The Simpsons writers' way of analysing their own creation.
In the case of Rick Sanchez, his "Frank Grimes" is the misery and destruction that lies in his wake. Beth's arc in season 3, the trauma that Morty and Jerry and the rest of the family have struggled with, Rick's alcoholism and generally poisonous nature, "What are you in for?" "Everything", all that. The Simpsons' episodic nature meant that they could limit the analysis of their creation to two or three episodes ('Homer's Enemy' and 'The Itchy, Scratchy & Poochie Show' were written at the same time), whereas Rick & Morty's (and BoJack Horseman's) more serialised storytelling means the consequences can carry on into the next episode, and the next episode, and so on. The writers are constantly giving themselves, and are constantly being given, new avenues to analyse things.
Sorry to reference BoJack again but this is something he struggles with. He fights against the nature of the very TV show he's part of:
I get what you mean about the writing in these shows feeling slightly punitive, as though the creators are turning the finger back at us for ever daring to sympathise with such awful people, but I think it's a lot more complicated than that. I think problematic protagonists exist simply to make storytelling more complex and mature, to use them as ways of exploring the darker corners of the creators' minds, and to see what writers and audiences alike are capable of stomaching. TV shows are just creative experiments made into entertainment, and the writers of these TV shows use the entertainment medium to play around with things. For years we had predominantly simple stories where it was Good vs. Evil, and Good usually "won" inside either 30 or 90 minutes. Equilibrium is established, disequilibrium is caused, equilibrium is re-established. Done and done.
I think we know the world is a different place now, and our moral compasses are being sent all over the place. At the moment, TV is just reflecting that back at us. It makes for more challenging viewing but I don't think that's a bad thing. Eventually traditions have to be scrutinised and subverted and exposed, and it turns out people want that. So we get shows like The Sopranos where you're forced to sympathise with a womanising mobster in Tony, or Breaking Bad where you're forced to sympathise with a druglord sociopath in Walt, or Dexter where you're forced to sympathise with serial killer Dexter Morgan, or Game of Thrones with divine-rightist Daenerys Targaryen, or Mad Men with the dishonest Don Draper, and on and on it goes. To send this back in the direction of my original point, I don't think these shows are trying to point the finger or catch us off guard, I think they're just trying to make sense of the world by creating characters who feel as complex and real as the humans who watch them.
Rick & Morty is just a part of this cultural system.
Thought that episode was pretty shit.
@robinamicrowave did you do media studies?
If he did, he copied his roommate's homework...
GCSE, A Level, Undergrad (Multimedia Journalism) and Postgrad (Media Psychology).
I liked the heist episode. It was silly and meta enough to make me laugh throughout.
Agree. A couple of funny jokes but otherwise it was all over the place.
That was the point because most heist movies are like that.
Anyway, it was great just for dissing Ocean's 12. God that was an awful movie.
I get what they were trying to do and haha meta but it was a bit crap and all over the place.
Haha thought so!GCSE, A Level, Undergrad (Multimedia Journalism) and Postgrad (Media Psychology).
I think it was all over the place in the right way - just enough to take the piss about heist movies, but still managed to pull it together. Not an amazing episode overall, but entertaining enough.
Caught up to episode 3. One question. Didn't he get incarcerated at the end of the last series? Did they explain how he was released or is this series a brand new and unrelated thread of reality?
He was incarcerated at the end of series 2. The first episode of season 3 shows how he broke out of the maximum security facility.
Did you miss an entire season?
I was confused when I wrote that. I'd seen episode 2 ( the toilet episode) and it seems everyone was talking about episode 3. In regards to episode 3, it was ok.
Ah shit, I did miss an entire season. Thought this was season 3 on TV but its 4. Doh! Yes I've only just got into, and got, Rick and Morty. Took a while to adjust.
Oh shit, lucky you! Season 3 for the first time was great!
Season 4 is very generic.
Really hoping we get abit more insight this season into either, our Ricks origin, remember the memories of Rick holding baby Morty, even though he only just met Morty in season 1? Or more info regarding evil morty, now he is president of the Citadel of Ricks. Feel the twoaee going to interwine somehow, like evil Morty is our Rick's original Morty.
Really living up to your username
For feck sake
This video nailed it:
And by extension, Harmon/Roiland nailed the toxic end of Game of Thrones fandom.
And by extension, Harmon/Roiland nailed the toxic end of Game of Thrones fandom.
This season hasn't been great so far, but last night's episode was back to being very good.
That was awesome.
I need to find a radio station with snake jazz
I need to find a radio station with snake jazz
Love Xmas, gives me time to catch up on a lot of shows. This one easy to do given the length of each ep.
Loved the heist one, just for its craziness and taking the piss.
The final episode was fantastic. Snakes...
Loved the heist one, just for its craziness and taking the piss.
The final episode was fantastic. Snakes...
My friend only just reminded me the other day that the new season is out. God bless him.