Road Trip Draft 2: SF. 2mufc0 vs GSTQ

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Kramer was the third CM (replacement for the injured Khedira) for the first 30 minutes, Özil played on the wing. After Kramer's injury you're right (yet Boateng and partly Hummels still have to be mentioned when it comes to containing the Argentinian offense).

But I'm not sure what you're arguing against, as I supported your general assessment.

Aye Kramer got subbed after 30 mins. So that is still 90 minutes left where Schweini was holding stuff on his own.

Not arguing, just adding more meat to your point which I agree with of course.

 

[Synco]

Aye Kramer got subbed after 30 mins. So that is still 90 minutes left where Schweini was holding stuff on his own.

Not arguing, just adding more meat to your point which I agree with of course.

See, this is what I mean with "a tad overrated". Schweinsteiger played a great game and was absolutely crucial defensively, but it was more of a collective effort.

And the 2014 WC was more than the final - initially Schweinsteiger wasn't fit, Lahm played in midfield, later the formation I talked of came into play, then Khedira & Kramer got injured - it was many different setups, and a not quite fit Schweinsteiger proved his worth in various environments.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Schweinsteiger played a great game and was absolutely crucial defensively, but it was more of a collective effort.

There is no denying the collective effort. But one has to watch Messi's highlight reel from that final (22 minute clip available on YouTube) which shows what a special night Bastian had. Almost every dangerous Messi move was plucked out by him centrally. In the collectiveness of the team, Bastian shone the brightest.

 

[Synco]

In the collectiveness of the team, Bastian shone the brightest.

I'd say it was Boateng, but enough of that

Again, I'm not even contesting your main point: Between 2010 and 2014, Schweinsteiger had brilliant games as a DM for the German NT. And he played all kinds of midfield roles for Bayern from 2009/10 on. That's enough evidence for me to assume he'd function well in your setup.

 

[2mufc0]

On Gerets, I am curious how many people have actually watched him play in a few games?

I am sure that some have. Questioning his pace would be ridiculous in anyone's eyes who would have actually seen him play outside draft games.

I am not a fan of replacing every piece of the puzzle just because it's a better sell. Could have picked Zanetti but why change something that is not broken? For a better sell? Sure, I'll try that next time. Not really

You are also using the Standard Liege version of Gerets, so his international and time at PSV carries no weight here and this is the era he is mostly rated on. I would fancy Henry against Gerets at his best but against his domestic Belgian version even more.

Also it would be good if you could provide some info on Gullit's time in the Netherlands as from what I researched is that he mainly played as an AM and sweeper.

 

[2mufc0]

Congratulations. We have gotten through the first couple of hours in a civil manner

it is unusual. Going to bed now will post tomorrow.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

You are also using the Standard Liege version of Gerets

May I ask which games of Gerets from Liege have you watched?

FYI, won the best player in the league award in 1982 from right back. His peak was in Belgium. Played there till he was 29 years old. I am sure you don't mean to say his best came in his 30s.

Also it would be good if you could provide some info on Gullit's time in the Netherlands as from what I researched is that he mainly played as an AM and sweeper.

He played as a right winger, AM, striker and midfielder. There is enough footage on YouTube btw unlike with Gerets.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I'd say it was Boateng, but enough of that

Yea, I have had this argument with someone else before. Boateng himself had a brilliant night.

Again, I'm not even contesting your main point: Between 2010 and 2014, Schweinsteiger had brilliant games as a DM for the German NT. And he played all kinds of midfield roles for Bayern from 2009/10 on. That's enough evidence for me to assume he'd function well in your setup.

I know. Cheers

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Before I take a break myself, a couple of quick clips I managed to create on the phone of Gullit from PSV in Eredveise. They show what he can do in this role.

That right there is Gullit to Figo

This one is for @Edgar Allan Pillow who said -

That great Ajax side had Neeskens and van hanegem who'll start deep and drive the ball forward. For me, Charlton and Gullit are those who'll start ahead and drop back as needed

How's that for starting deep and driving with the ball forward Edgar?

 

[Moby]

Gullit would have taken Cerezo's soul by the time this is over, let alone having Bobby in there as well. Biggest mismatch on the pitch and the Brazilian is easily out of his depth here,

 

[harms]

You can't be serious with this given Henry quite clearly fits this role like a glove - inside forward from the left sided position is literally tailor made for Henry and aligns to his skill set throughout his career, whether that's when starting out as a more-orthodox left winger, when he moved to a forward who drifts left in a 4-4-2 and finally when he playing as a inside forward at Barcelona. Anyone familiar with Henry knows he suits that role so its nit-picking of the highest order imo.

Henry himself explained how he had to adapt and limit his game to fit in at Barca. There’s this famous story when he cut inside, scored a goal and got substituted because he ruined the team shape.

 

[harms]

Cruyff's totaalvoetbal and Pep's Juego de Posicion are quite different though. Müller is great as an Agüero's upgrade, but I don't see him fitting in perfectly in 74' Netherlands. Cruyff would be a bit limited (like Henry on the other side) in Pep's system - Guardiola's wingers have to stretch the pitch first and everything else second. I don't know, even though Pep's system came from the totaalvoetbal, there are quite a few differences and I'm not sure that you can make a side that fully suits both philosophies.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Cruyff's totaalvoetbal and Pep's Juego de Posicion are quite different though. Müller is great as an Agüero's upgrade, but I don't see him fitting in perfectly in 74' Netherlands. Cruyff would be a bit limited (like Henry on the other side) in Pep's system - Guardiola's wingers have to stretch the pitch first and everything else second. I don't know, even though Pep's system came from the totaalvoetbal, there are quite a few differences and I'm not sure that you can make a side that fully suits both philosophies.

I only partially borrowed from Guardiola's system and made quite a few changes.

Thing I borrowed -

1. Playmakers as Midfielders (Silva/De Bruyne replaced with Charlton Gullit)
2. Inverted fullbacks (Nilton/Gerets both moved in frequently)

Things I changed

1. Width providing players need not be constants like at Man City (Charlton/Gullit to frequently replace Cruyff/Figo). This is where it mixes with Total Football. Keep Pep's obsession with shape intact while bringing in Michels' interchanging at will into effect.
2. Playmakers have larger defensive capabilities.

It's obviously an hybrid and not a remake. I wouldn't compare them like for like.

 

[2mufc0]

May I ask which games of Gerets from Liege have you watched?

FYI, won the best player in the league award in 1982 from right back. His peak was in Belgium. Played there till he was 29 years old. I am sure you don't mean to say his best came in his 30s.

That's the point mate, there's hardly any footage or sources about his time in Belgium which does suggest he didn't do anything extraordinary there , I would also question the strength of the Belgian league in that period. You can't deny he's mainly rated for his time at PSV.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

That's the point mate, there's hardly any footage or sources about his time in Belgium which does suggest he didn't do anything extraordinary there , I would also question the strength of the Belgian league in that period. You can't deny he's mainly rated for his time at PSV.

There is hardly any footage because Belgian league was not broadly televised at that time. How does it suggest he didn't do anything extraordinary there?

Do you know there is no full game of Rob Rensenbrink from Anderlecht as well? The same guy you played in the last 2 rounds from the same league

And Eric Gerets didn't shoot to fame after moving to PSV at the age of 31.

Belgium's Euro 1980's campaign where they reached the final shot the likes of Ceulemans, Pfaff, Gerets to fame.

The peak version of Gerets was the one in the Belgian league, during his peak years.

You don't respect the league, that is up to you. I am not going to reciprocate that by saying Brazilian league in the 90's was not that great as well, so Cafu had it easy as well because its as non sensical an argument as it gets in the scheme and theme of this draft.

 

[2mufc0]

There is hardly any footage because Belgian league was not broadly televised at that time. How does it suggest he didn't do anything extraordinary there?

Do you know there is no full game of Rob Rensenbrink from Anderlecht as well? The same guy you played in the last 2 rounds

And Eric Gerets didn't shoot to fame after moving to PSV at the age of 31.

Belgium's Euro 1980's campaign where they reached the final shot the likes of Ceulemans, Pfaff, Gerets to fame.

The peak version of Gerets was the one in the Belgian league, during his peak years.

You don't respect the league, that is up to you. I am not going to reciprocate that by saying Brazilian league in the 90's was not that great as well, so Cafu had it easy as well because its as non sensical an argument as it gets in the scheme of this draft.

The difference with Cafu and Rensenbrink is they won continental titles with their teams which suggests they were playing at much higher level than domestic level. Its the same reason why in the modern day Psg players don't get rated as highly due to the league strength,i don't think that's a controversial view at all. And we aren't taking Gerets international performances into account here.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

The difference with Cafu and Rensenbrink is they won continental titles with their teams which suggests they were playing at much higher level than domestic level. Its the same reason why in the modern day Psg players don't get rated as highly due to the league strength,i don't think that's a controversial view at all. And we aren't taking Gerets international performances into account here.

Standard Liege reached the final of the European Cup Winners Cup as well in 1982. The same year that Gerets won the Belgian Golden shoe.

That's the point mate, there's hardly any footage or sources about his time in Belgium which does suggest he didn't do anything extraordinary there

Just to add more response to this ridiculous point about him not doing anything extraordinary because there was no footage, the first Belgian League games were televised in 1984. And that too only highlights.

It was only in the late 80's and early 90's that full games started appearing on TV's

Gerets had left Liege in 1983 at the age of 29.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Note to self : Calm down. Don't piss off @2mufc0 . He is not Enigma. Breathe.

 

[2mufc0]

Note to self : Calm down. Don't piss off @2mufc0 . He is not Enigma. Breathe.

Be careful I might turn into him

 

[2mufc0]

Standard Liege reached the final of the European Cup Winners Cup as well in 1982. The same year that Gerets won the Belgian Golden shoe.



Just to add more response to this ridiculous point about him not doing anything extraordinary because there was no footage, the first Belgian League games were televised in 1984. And that too only highlights.

It was only in the late 80's and early 90's that full games started appearing on TV's

Gerets had left Liege in 1983 at the age of 29.

Video footage aside, how do you know how he played in that period? At least with the other players articles have been written about them. I still don't believe this negates the point Gerets is better known for is PSV stint.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Video footage aside, how do you know how he played in that period? At least with the other players articles have been written about them. I still don't believe this negates the point Gerets is better known for is PSV stint.

2 reasons

1. He was already playing brilliantly for Belgium in that same span (1980 Euros being a prime tournament where Belgium reached the final. Full matches available).
2. He won the Belgian Golden shoe in 1982, given to the best player in the Belgian League. Finished in the top 3 more than once.

I am sure articles are written about him as well. I prefer writing my own stuff in games though rather than borrowing long articles from the internet. Bores me otherwise.

 

[Physiocrat]

@2mufc0 How high of a defensive line are you playing? Are Henry and Kalle suitable for high pressing after losing the ball? This is a hard question to answer but what percentage of possession are you broadly aiming for?

@2mufc0

 

[2mufc0]

2 reasons

1. He was already playing brilliantly for Belgium in that same span (1980 Euros being a prime tournament where Belgium reached the final. Full matches available).
2. He won the Belgian Golden shoe in 1982, given to the best player in the Belgian League. Finished in the top 3 more than once.

I am sure articles are written about him as well. I prefer writing my own stuff in games though rather than borrowing long articles from the internet. Bores me otherwise.

So you don't know how he played and basing it off wiki CV, that's all I wanted to establish, in the end you won't agree with me for obvious reasons sothink we have to agree to disagree. I think you misunderstood the point I was making with articles. The good articles are written by people who actually watched the players play or if not able to find sources that are not widely available, so in this sense they are very good imo and provide valuable insights.

Anyway I'm off for most of the day now, gg.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

The good articles are written by people who actually watched the players play or if not able to find sources that are not widely available, so in this sense they are very good imo and provide valuable insights.

It's not like he is a pre war player. There is loads of Belgium National team footage from his time at Liege available to indicate what his level was.

The only reason one would want to use articles for a player from the 80's is if he was shit and articles sold him better than actual footage.

 

[Theon]

May I ask which games of Gerets from Liege have you watched?

FYI, won the best player in the league award in 1982 from right back. His peak was in Belgium. Played there till he was 29 years old. I am sure you don't mean to say his best came in his 30s.

I think the point is that you made a comment about people "needing to watch Gerets" but the fact he was playing in the Belgium league makes that impossible as the latter version is excluded.

I don't think he's been critiqued harshly anyway - the comments have been respectful of Gerets. All that has been said is that he's facing a Facchetti / Thierry Henry flank (which is obviously devastating) and that he would probably therefore struggle.

Obviously the onus is on you to prove that he was good enough in the Belgium league to keep those two at the peak of their powers quiet - which I find really unlikely.

The Belgium Golden Shoe thing doesn't hit that threshold as evidence imo. He won in 1982 either side of Erwin Vandenbergh in 1981 and Franky Vercauteren in 1983 - both good players but its two tiers below what Facchetti and Henry were doing in Serie A and the Premier League respectively. And Gerets got one more top three finish in his 12 years in the league so its not like he was a constant fixture as the leagues best player (as opposed to say Ceulemans from the same era).

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Oh look, Enigma votes for me in a inconsequential game. 10 bucks says he again votes against in the next game. Got so much to learn from some of these guys

And there you go

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I think the point is that you made a comment about people "needing to watch Gerets" but the fact he was playing in the Belgium league makes that impossible as the latter version is excluded.

It's not impossible. You can watch the Cup winners Cup games of Liege. I have watched them and so I asked which games you guys watched. Also available on YouTube.

You could have watched the footage rather than not rating him simply because Belgian League footage which was not televised is not available which somehow apparently proves than he was nothing extraordinary. Easier sell with zero effort but without logic or sense am afraid.

Also, unless you think he turned up brilliantly for Belgium in the tougher international arena but then returned to being ordinary in the apparently easier Belgium league, the point hardly holds.

That is me done with the Gerets discussion.

 

[2mufc0]

@2mufc0

Sorry missed this, bit busy right now but will respond.

 

[Theon]

You could have watched the footage rather than not rating him simply because Belgian League footage which was not televised is not available which somehow apparently proves than he was nothing extraordinary. Easier sell with zero effort but without logic or sense am afraid.

No one hasn't 'rated him' - why did you exclude the rest of my post? All I said is that he's up against Facchetti / Henry which IMO is about as difficult a challenge for any right back.

But to be frank the onus is on you to prove he was "extraordinary" - I certainly don't think he was extraordinary so you'll need to provide some evidence. Please post some of these youtube games if you have them available.

The only evidence you've provided is that he was once voted best player in the Belgium league (either side of Erwin Vandenbergh and Franky Vercauteren) and that on one other occasion out of the 12 years he played there he came third.

It's obviously good but its not on face value 'extraordinary' and I don't think suggesting Facchetti / Henry will have success is a strange statement or harsh on Gerets. I could quite easily make the opposite statement that you are - that you're understating the influence and downplaying the impact of the greatest attacking left back of all time and someone who scored 30+ goals for five years consecutively.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

No one hasn't 'rated him' - why did you exclude the rest of my post?

You didn't do your homework my friend. When the first few lines I disagree with completely, I hardly read the rest of it.

I watched games of Cafu to make sure if the Brazilian league version was as good and I was pretty happy with his performance. Didn't help in this game, but I did my homework.

All I said is that he's up against Facchetti / Henry which IMO is about as difficult a challenge for any right back.

I have already put my thoughts on Gerets' skills which help with Henry. He has Kohler to cover with Henry, Figo to help with Facchetti and ofcourse Gullit on that side. None of whom you have mentioned once while you keep singling out Gerets.

My apologies for not reading the rest of the post since I completely disagree with the first para again.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Please post some of these youtube games if you have them available

Not really difficult to search Belgium's Euro games

 

[Theon]

You didn't do your homework my friend. When the first few lines I disagree with completely, I hardly read the rest of it.

I watched games of Cafu to make sure if the Brazilian league version was as good and I was pretty happy with his performance. Didn't help in this game, but I did my homework.

Fair enough. That's certainly one approach to debating.

Noted on Cafu - unfortunately with two kids and work I haven't had the time to scour the internet for Standard Liège games from the early 80's on the hope that Gerets get's roasted for 90 minutes. Thankfully at no point have I tried to argue that Gerets was a poor player so its not something I need to rely upon.

Not really difficult to search Belgium's Euro games

Mate - the onus isn't on me to search for games which prove Gerets was exceptional when he played in Belgium. I don't think he was and that has to be the default position based on his credentials.

It's obviously on you to demonstrate otherwise, but all you've put forward as evidence is that he won an award in the Belgium league one time in 12 years. As I said, that's clearly good but I don't think its enough to make me convinced he'll be okay vs a Facchetti / Henry flank.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Mate - the onus isn't on me to search for games which prove Gerets was exceptional when he played in Belgium. I don't think he was and that has to be the default position based on his credentials.

Never once have I called him Thuram while defending and Alves while attacking.

I said he has the pace to deal with Henry and you said he didn't. Onus is as much on you to prove he lacked pace to deal with Henry. I sense you also believe a defender needs to have as much pace as an attacker which I don't believe. If he is pacy enough, he should do well.

The fact of the matter is players like Suurbier/Alves/Gerets are crucial in Michels/Guardiola setups. You can't sacrifice them for more defensively sellable options.

All you can do is make sure they are well covered by the likes of Kohler/Figo/Gullit.

That is probably everything I had to say on Mr. Eric Gerets.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

But to be frank the onus is on you to prove he was "extraordinary" - I certainly don't think he was extraordinary so you'll need to provide some evidence. Please post some of these youtube games if you have them available.

Alright, for anyone interested in watching one of Gerets' truly brilliant performances (especially in the defensive sense), this is the game to watch.

The 1982 World Cup game between Argentina and Belgium

https://footballia.net/matches/argentina-belgium-world-cup-1982

Belgium won the game 1-0.

Gerets was up against Kempes on the left and a free roaming Maradona whom he often ran into and stopped.

The game is not available on youtube so I cant make gifs.

Maradona's compilation from the game is available though and you can catch how Gerets dealt with Kempes and Diego.

I'd still recommend watching the full game if you truly want to see a really good game of Gerets

 

[2mufc0]

Alright, for anyone interested in watching one of Gerets' truly brilliant performances (especially in the defensive sense), this is the game to watch.

The 1982 World Cup game between Argentina and Belgium

https://footballia.net/matches/argentina-belgium-world-cup-1982

Belgium won the game 1-0.

Gerets was up against Kempes on the left and a free roaming Maradona whom he often ran into and stopped.

The game is not available on youtube so I cant make gifs.

Maradona's compilation from the game is available though and you can catch how Gerets dealt with Kempes and Diego.

I'd still recommend watching the full game if you truly want to see a really good game of Gerets

I don't think it's fair you are using international games as examples when we are solely judging on club performances.

 

[2mufc0]

@2mufc0

Henry and Kalle are definitely suited to high pressing off the ball - Kalle has a great workrate and Henry demonstrated that he could fit Pep's philosophy when he successfully played for Barca (and that was outside of his physical peak being in his 30's).

I also think its worth noting that Guardiola has deployed players like David Villa, Pedro, Eto'o, Robben, Sterling, Sane etc all to fit his possession based style and pressing off the ball - some of them have clearly less work rate than Kalle for example so I dont see that being a problem and they are both great fits.

With regards to high lines our system is based on keeping it compact with the whole team pushing up and moving back together - it's a key aspect in all of Pep's systems, so a high line majority of the time will be the way to play otherwise it falls apart as a system. We certainly have the personnel at the back to do it, with Facchetti, Cafu and a Nesta being pacey defenders (as well as GOATs in their roles).

Although Koeman isn't quick he was successfully deployed in high lines throughout his career - most extremely in the Dream Team at Barcelona where he was often the only CB in a Guardiola-esque high line - look at the clip below as an example. Those tactics under Cruyff were far more of a 'risky' set up than he's played in here but he did it extremely successfully without his pace causing the whole thing to crumble. Also added the QF vs Real Madrid from PSV and again the team is pushing up with a high line in possession. Pep also used a similar type of player in Pique successfully in the Barcelona high line which again shows you don't need to be lightening quick to play such a system. Koeman has proved this throughout his career - He's an absolutely perfect fit for this style and arguably the #1 choice as a Guardiola defender.

​

In terms of possession we have the superiority in midfield, Scholes, Cerezo and Iniesta are masters of keeping the ball and recycling possession and suit that tempo. In contrast Gullit and Charlton were more direct offensive players who won't play the patient build up, I would expect us to starve the opposition of the ball here. We also have far superior ball players in defence especially with Koeman which tips it into our favour and adds more control in all phases, particularly as Guardiola possesion style often starts from the defence (even Chilavert is a great fit, as a technical goalkeeper he's possibly even more extreme than Ederson in his ability with the ball).

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I don't think it's fair you are using international games as examples when we are solely judging on club performances.

I am trying to provide an insight into his skill set, defensive acumen, pace, tackling and marking - all of which is very well seen in that game.

I am not trying to establish a peak, just providing insights into what kind of a player he was.

If you are saying these attributes change when a player moves from club to country while playing in the same position, I would have to disagree to that.

Do watch the game though

 

[Moby]

If you are saying these attributes change when a player moves from club to country while playing in the same position, I would have to disagree to that.

Loads of players perform differently for club and country at the same point of time and it's the actual performances we are judging the players on, not the sole ability and assumption that it would always be at the peak during that period. Keep any NT action out of these games.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Loads of players perform differently for club and country at the same point of time and it's the actual performances we are judging the players on, not the sole ability and assumption that it would always be at the peak during that period. Keep any NT action out of these games.

Again, not trying to establish the level of performance or peak, just showcasing his skill set. Surely the pace of a player doesnt change when he moves from club to country?

I'll avoid posting any more national team videos, but this is a funny little loop of asking for proof of skill set and then disqualifying the evidence on a technicality rather than watching. Quite obvious there is no intent to watch.

I'll show myself out. Good game guys.

 

[Physiocrat]

@2mufc0

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'm happy with Kalle now but Henry didn't really like playing in Pep's side so I'm a bit dubious there. Thanks for confirming the high line. I still think Koeman could be an issue. I don't think it's fair to call him the only CB in Cruyff's Dream Team. He was at the centre of a back three. Now I will grant that the wide centre backs were reasonably attacking as far as wide CBs go but I think it gives more protection than essentially Nesta.

One final question, do Facchetti and Cafu go up at the same time or does one stay more conservative?