Can't see us signing Sancho, Varane AND a new DM
Rob Dawson ESPN: Solskjaer tells players he wants to implement a more attacking 4-3-3 this season.
- Thread starter Adnan
- Start date
4-2-3-1 makes better use of Bruno, 4-3-3 will make better use of Pogba.
The question is: if we go for 4-3-3 with Pogba and Bruno as hybrid 8/10 how the hell we're going to balance this. we need a strong #6 to make it happend. Pogba of coruse could play as hybrid 6/8 but i don't trust him to be disciplined
If we sell Telles, VdB, Bailly/Tuanzeebe that could resale enough funds.
Sadly agree. Feels like a bit of a Glazer-esque leak to get people excited.
Ole has been in charge for a while now, we hardly lacked the players to play an attacking style against 75% of teams last season but we chose not to, why would it suddenly change now?
Bruno Camavinga VDB then.
Deano
Trippier - Varane - Maguire - Shaw
Beek
Bruno - Pogba
Greenwood - Cavani - Sancho
Trippier - Varane - Maguire - Shaw
Beek
Bruno - Pogba
Greenwood - Cavani - Sancho
I think it really needs a fast partner for Maguire too so we can play a higher line
Just the small difference that we are comparing what 3 can do with what 4 can do. Mcfred is not one player! Individually they both lack key facets needed for a pure defensive mid
I'd rather have James at CB. Or Sancho in goal.
Not really true though, how many times do teams score 9 goals? It has happened to Southampton a couple of times, Wigan, Ipswich but I can't remember anyone else in the premiership era, so no the result is not irrelevant, nor does playing against ten men mean we will naturally create more chances.
So again, goalscoring isn't the issue - we have goalscorers throughout the team, Bruno, Cavani, Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Pogba and add Sancho on that list, the issue is creating the chances, which we have struggled with at times, as you say, usually against the more defensive teams.
However the change of formation could give us that extra attacking freedom to do just this, however I would still expect two in the middle for the big teams.
De Bruyne is a much better passer. Or I should say a much more consistent passer, really.
*Varane intensifies*
Nah man.. nah.. I mean there wasn't, was there?
that would be a complete horror show
yeah, seems a strange rumour to be flying around, and one I hope isn't true, AWB needs to stay on the right...
Although James would give us Pace at the back
For me it is (as it always seems to be with our team), where do his best qualities lie? We always seem to be struggling to make an XI gel.
With this change, we’d be going from a system, as @Ali Dia has correctly pointed out repeatedly that doesn’t fit Pogba as the best role for him in the 4231 would be the 10 - to one which, to me, makes Bruno the odd one out. He obviously deserves a crack at stamping his role in the 3, but the switch immediately swings the suitability from Bruno to Pogba, in terms of who is in their optimised formation.
What are your views on this @Ali Dia ? I agreed with tour position before that ‘Sancho gives us what Pogba offers on the left and Bruno is the 10 so he doesn’t fit’, and would like to know your take should we switch to a midfield 3.
Another issue not discussed is the centre forward role for me. Moving to a traditional midfield 3 should in theory help us control a football match better, but it also creates a greater need for a striker who can out up 20+ goals, especially if Bruno’s attentions are to be focused elsewhere further back. We’d need Cavani, at 34/35 or Martial to really deliver numbers, especially as Rashford, our main goal threat from wide, will be out.
Exciting news if true. I enjoyed the 433 we played with Matic-Herrera-Pogba when Ole took over.
Would be nice to see but we need a strong DM for this. I think Ole is leaning toward how Man City used to play with Silva and KDB ahead of Fernandinho. Pogba and Bruno would be our Silva and KDB but i don’t think we have a Fernandinho type.
I agree, in an ideal world but I think this story (if true) could still be a better option, on balance, than last seasons McFred.
Yes, we need a top CH and a top DM but one of the two would also help compensate for deficiencies in the other.
A top DM would better shield Maguire/Lindelof and a top CH would (should) mean the defence is less reliant on midfield bailing it out. Either should mean we lose a defensive midfielder and gain someone up front/attack minded.
Last season : a defence that means Ole leans towards McFred for cover and we have a front four/attack
Varane : Ole gets rid of McFred, picks one of the two and we get another attack minded player (say Pogba) on the pitch and we have a front five. Maybe we don't have a top DM, but I think the occasional times we miss that second defensive minded midfielder would be outweighed by having another attack minded player, the chances/goals it creates. Also even if it leads to more opposition chances, maybe Varane means less of them turn into goals.
Ideal is top CH and top DM, we'd be real contendors. Getting Varane and having Pogba on the pitch more is second best option for me, though it'd be interesting to see how Bruno performs if he's a little further back... he can get frustrated
Shaw CDM, Telles LB
I agree. The 433 should bring the best out of Pogba in the way the 4231 brings the best out of Bruno. But then as you say the latter then loses his best traits; It’s very musical chairs with our players.
On paper with what we currently have for players who actually fit the system of a 433, it would probably be van De Beek and Pogba in a 3 behind a DM (Matic?).
The centre forward point is fair - though I did renew my yearly subscription to Martial FC after much debate. I do think the general idea in a 433 is that whilst you lose the G/A of your no.10, the team in and of itself picks up more goals elsewhere. E.G. Pogba was 13 + 9 in Ole’s first season as a third CM/kind of no.10. The idea in my mind is we’re sacrificing Bruno being in the 99th percentile for goals, assists, and key passes etc. to make it so the entire midfield and wide players pick up a their average a bit more. Whether it works in practice…
I would love it if this is true. In which case I wouldn’t mind a player like Rice to anchor the midfield and let the other two midfielders do their thing.
I don’t think it suits him or his skillset. I don’t think he has the game to play a shorter, tighter game personally - but I am certainly more open to trying it than having us continue with a 4231, which won’t take us anywhere.
Phil Jones at CDMShaw CDM, Telles LB
If the team as a whole looks better, more productive, and is less dependent on one player, then that’s a good thing for me, even if Bruno doesn’t put up the same numbers that he would with everything going through him.
I’m definitely in favour. More importantly for me than even sacrificing G/A of your 10 for a more even share of goals is sacrificing more G/A from your 10 for more control of the midfield. I’d simply prefer 3 bodies in there, and unless Bruno is terrible there - I’d still prefer him there than further forward personally. I think he’d still get a lot of goals, as the team plays further forward and higher up the pitch as a whole so even his CM role will still be within range quite often.
I don't think the role of the DM in this system is as crucial as it seems, there is no way the other two midfielders will bomb forward leaving no cover except McT. There will still be a balanced approach, I suppose the real question will be whether Bruno, Pogba, VDB etc can offer the defensive cover for it to work.
We will most likely be playing with Bruno and Pogba in a CAM partnership protected by a single CDM.
It's not that different to bruno playing as a CAM in front of McFred is it? I don't see much difference especially since Bruno wasnt exactly a player who stuck to one position all the time like he was Ozil.
Bruno gets to play CAM and all it allows it to do is for Pogba to have the licence to get more forward through out the game.
It's not that different to bruno playing as a CAM in front of McFred is it? I don't see much difference especially since Bruno wasnt exactly a player who stuck to one position all the time like he was Ozil.
Bruno gets to play CAM and all it allows it to do is for Pogba to have the licence to get more forward through out the game.
Given Pogba’s injury issues, potentially.
Fred
(Matic)
Bruno Pogba
(McTom) (van de Beek)
Fred as starting DM worries me though.
If we sign Trippier, 433 in most games, 343 in tough games, seems like a good idea.
not sure if it's been mentioned yet but if this is true it's surely good news for Donny
It really depends on how tactically disciplined can the players be. If Pogba doesn’t track and keeps getting turned over that’ll obviously be a pressure point for the opposition team. Same thing with Bruno. If he keeps flicking the ball to nobody then we are going to get countered a lot. If we get Camavinga and he is indeed the second coming of Christ then maybe it’ll work if one of our fullbacks sit in with him but with our personnel I can see Ole changing between the 2 systems. I don’t really know how it’ll go to be honest. I thought we were ok after lockdown with fresh Matic Pogba doing his version of box too box and Bruno being a box to box 10 but I can’t see fred or McT being able to dominate their space as much as Matic did (and he only did it for about 10 games) they were all walking around by the end of the season and the attack went flat. It’s intriguing! I’d love to see us somehow get Pogba and Bruno into our most effective team 100%
If accurate then this is definately a chance for VDB and will suit pogba more. I wonder if there will be DM signing.
Hopefully yes. Donny is made for this system(because it's the classical Ajax/Dutch way).
Yeah this is a good point
Also Lingard and Pereira, potentially a GK too.
I'm not sure if I'm alone here but I definitely wouldn't have Beek in that role, he's not quick, he gets pushed off the ball and he can't tackle, he can pass though.
Could Sabitzer play DM?
Yeah, my immediate thought was "But what about the DM?" We don't have anyone that can really fulfil that role (Matic is too slow, surely?). If they're going to go all out for a DM great, but even with Varane I think that would be a must.
I don't think it would work too. If it's remaniscent of Juventus, VdB is no Pirlo and Bruno can't tackle like Marchisio. Nor vice versa.
I guess it makes sense that we added the new coach who will be responsible for pressing and counterpressing. We tried pressing aggressively at times last season but I always felt we were a step too late compared to the better teams at pressing and allowed openings to escape the press for the opposition. Was this due to our 4231 formation or coaching who knows but it will be interesting to see how it pans out.
And to echo what people have already said they DM position will still be a problem. I'd prefer Mctominay out of all of our options which admittedly aren't great. Fred should never be the player collecting the ball from the back four so close to goal, he's a mistake waiting to happen there. McT isn't much better but I still think he can ve coached to be adequate there.
And to echo what people have already said they DM position will still be a problem. I'd prefer Mctominay out of all of our options which admittedly aren't great. Fred should never be the player collecting the ball from the back four so close to goal, he's a mistake waiting to happen there. McT isn't much better but I still think he can ve coached to be adequate there.
What? I’ve been hammered here for suggesting we can partner Pogba in a midfield two if we get a top DM in, now we are thinking of putting Beek there on his own?