Roberto Firmino, the most overrated player in the Prem.

jamesjimmybyrondean

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I think only prime Griezmann and peak Messi are upgrades in Firmino
 

flappyjay

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Ibra and RvP might outscore Firmino, but that would be outweighed by the reduction in output from Mane and Salah.

He is not in the team to score, or even assist all that much. He is there to turn over possession and initiate quick attacks. Liverpool like to press high up the pitch and he is the one who leads it. There are very few players in the league who could do it to the level he does, I don't think even Rooney could as he always wanted to get in the middle of everything.
Prime Rvp/Ibra are a guaranteed 30+ goals so the reduction goals by Mane /Salah would be balanced out by the new strikers goals. It would be even harder to try marking out Rvp/Ibra whilst also trying to stop Mane and Salah from scoring.
 

DWelbz19

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Is Benzema the most overrated player in La Liga? He served a similar role for Ronaldo (and Bale) over a 5-6 year period.
Benzema is the fourth highest CL goalscorer in history and has the most assists in Real Madrid history. Don’t ever compare him to this no look passing grinner. Ever. I mean it.
 

RooneyLegend

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When you say that he "isn't an elite goal threat for that role" it just says to me that you, although you claim to, haven't quite understood his role in the team Klopp has put together. Firminos role is fairly unique, his main job is to create space, and draw out the backline for Salah and Mane to exploit. I would also argue that your claim of Firmino not possessing "elite individualistic qualities" is empirically wrong. Off the ball, he is the best forward in the world period. His skills, first touch, and flair are on par with anyone. He also has a lot of goals in him. I used to watch him play every week in the Bundesliga, and for me it is quite clear that he is sacrificing his goal scoring stats for the betterment of his team in Liverpool.

I'm just going to say it, and this is obviously just my opinion, but I honestly do not see any other striker in the world who would strengthen Liverpool the way they play now. And remember, the way Liverpool play now has made them the best team in England, maybe even in the world. All of that revolves around Roberto Firmino.

Sure, Lewandowski and Kane would score more goals, but the team as a whole would suffer for it. Suarez a couple of years ago, but too old now.

Fikayo Tomori said this a week ago, which I think is a fair assessment
"In the Championship you have a lot of different strikers - some love it in the air or like to go in behind. But then I'm playing against [Roberto] Firmino and he's dropping deep into midfield. Things happen a lot faster and mistakes are punished more harshly.

"Firmino was probably the most difficult [to play against] - along with Salah. Every time they got the ball, I was thinking, 'This is a challenge but this is where I want to be - this is a chance to prove that I can play at this level.'"
Why do you act like understanding what a false 9 is, is rocket science? it really isnt. Its basically a 10 playing without a striker directly in front of him. Why do you keep talking about Kane and Suarez? what do they have to do with anything? are they 10's?

Cruyff, Messi, Totti played a similar position and put up huge numbers. Neymar played there in Messi's abscence for Barca and put up hige performances.

Infact reading your posts i can understand why he's indeed overatted. its because people are amazed by his role in the side and give it some mythical status instead of focusing on his attributes as a footballer.
 

tenpoless

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But there's no evidence that there are better players than him for that system, in that role. So you don't have an argument. They won the European Cup and are basically runaway Premier League champions. He is clearly fantastic in that role.

Football is now a game of systems. He is one of a small handful in the world who are perfect for what Klopp wants to do.
So argument means I have to predict who will be a better False 9? a role made through experiments with players? If I attempt to do so I will still be criticized because 'It has never happened and you are predicting'. There are only a handful of currently active footballers that have played as a False 9. I think my argument is clear enough, read my other post about it, the long one.

I never said He is a bad player, I just think the hype surrounding him makes him overrated. You can think a player is good without having to big him up, stating Him better and more valuable than Salah is just silly and this is why He is overrated not because He is good at the 'system' blahblahblah. Of course He is very good for Liverpool and the 'system'. But here is where I see another problem as most players are judged mostly by their ability, not because He's good at a certain system that is not used widely, which renders him a bit redundant in another. But fair enough, We look at from different perspectives so let's agree to disagree.
 
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Gio

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The problem with calling Firmino a false 9 is that the position instantly compares him to the most famous exponents of the role such as Cruyff, Laudrup, Totti or Messi. But nobody is rating him in that stratosphere. I'd compare his role more to the function that a target man played in an old-fashioned strike pairing. Doing all the dirty work, occupying defenders, creating space, feeding his strike partner - these are all the same functions that Firmino delivers in his false 9 role. The absolute top tier could both provide and score heavily, but most mere mortals can do one or the other. And I think you can still be a top and valuable forward just excelling in one or thee other. To keep the comparisons in club, Kevin Keegan did a lot of that - to a higher level than Firmino with added physicality - and despite only averaging 10-15 goals a campaign, was still widely appreciated to be seen as the best European player.

Going off on a tangent, but I don't think there was much false about Messi as a #9. The first year or two he dropped into the hole to help service proper wide goal threats like Eto'o, Henry and then Villa. But really when he hit those massive numbers around 2011-13 or so, he was a #9 first and foremost. When he scored 73 goals in 2011/12, noboby else got more than 15. There was nothing false about his role there.
 

passing-wind

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Hard to say I like the fact he's an industrial type but he's playing alongside greedy forwards in Salah and Mane. I think his lack of clinical ability is maybe highlighted with his positional play wasn't he a midfielder at Hoffenheim ? If so would explain the reason he's not a prolific striker at all.
 

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I think a fair comparison would be Drogba in his first two seasons at Chelsea. In those two seasons he wasn't a great goal scorer but instead he was there to occupy the centre backs and create space for the likes of Lampard and Robben and also put himself about for the need of the team. Chelsea could have had a much better goal scorer during that time but Mourinho knew Drogba was the perfect striker for the set up he was playing and because of that the team was a winning machine.

I am talking strictly the first two season here as Dorgba would then go on to become a brilliant goal scorer anyway.
 

redman5

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Really ? I seem to remember saying something along the lines of Dennis Bergkamp being quite rightly regarded as one of the best ever Premiership players. I certainly don't recall saying something similar about Roberto Firmino. & I most certainly don't remember bringing any of those other players you mentioned into the debate.

You're making things up again TR. Naughty boy :nono:
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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Do people consider Firmino worldclass? Or to put this way what players would you consider to be on the same level as him
 

Remember the geese

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Do people consider Firmino worldclass? Or to put this way what players would you consider to be on the same level as him
In my opinion, he's a notch down from the very best. Although he's a different type of player to some, or all of these names, I'd say he's at a similar level to guys such as Martial, Lacazette, Jimenez and Lukaku.
 

fps

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I never said He is a bad player, I just think the hype surrounding him makes him overrated. You can think a player is good without having to big him up, stating Him better and more valuable than Salah is just silly and this is why He is overrated not because He is good at the 'system' blahblahblah. Of course He is very good for Liverpool and the 'system'. But here is where I see another problem as most players are judged mostly by their ability, not because He's good at a certain system that is not used widely, which renders him a bit redundant in another. But fair enough, We look at from different perspectives so let's agree to disagree.
Who of any importance is saying Firmino is more important than Salah? You can always find a single person to disagree with, don’t present it as a consensus view though.

And yes, you would have to suggest an improvement, it is a team game, he fits in perfectly and the club wins and wins and wins. Why can he not be a good player in the perfect system for him? No one of value is really suggesting he’s anything else.
 

tenpoless

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Who of any importance is saying Firmino is more important than Salah? You can always find a single person to disagree with, don’t present it as a consensus view though.

And yes, you would have to suggest an improvement, it is a team game, he fits in perfectly and the club wins and wins and wins. Why can he not be a good player in the perfect system for him? No one of value is really suggesting he’s anything else.
I don't want to rewrite posts I have posted. How did this become an argument of 'Who of any importance is saying A or B?'. This is a football forum mate. None of us have any importance.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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Do people consider Firmino worldclass? Or to put this way what players would you consider to be on the same level as him
He is world class in the role he plays. Although like most players he got a fairly limited role and one not used by most clubs.
I guess it depend on what you see as world class. He is a key player for maybe the best side in the world. Clearly world class for me.

He do not put up world class striker numbers though, but it is a team game.
 

paraguayo

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I wasn't dismissing him, I said throughout this thread that he was a great fit for Liverpool and a very good player but there are good/very good football players that could potentially replace him within Liverpool system. I mentioned the players that I did due to their overall game and the way they could interact with Mané and Salah while also contributing defensively, on the last part I did say that it was the major question mark.

You are the one who initially focused on stats and then moved the goalpost when you realized that it wasn't a good idea. It's probably best to move on since you are going to find new excuses.
Milner and Van Dijk say he is in the best XI they've played with, I will go ahead and say those names you said are not good enough to make Liverpool continue firing on all cylinders apart from Griezmann. Fekir, Son and Lacazette, no way. Even if Son is better in a vacuum, his style would be such a bad fit with Mane and Salah, they are basically all 3 good at same things. Lautaro only had good 6 months, his first year was bad
 

Bebestation

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Fluidity is such an underrated aspect of football in attacks.

Just because Kane can pass a ball as much as Firmino can doesnt mean that the attack remains as fluid in cohesion, balance and positioning.

Whilst origi is obviously a different class of player, you can clearly see that theres a change in fluidity to the way they play when they would have a striker like him there - whether he can pass a ball or not doesnt make much of a difference.

I see this in the England National team too - complete lack of fluidity, players like sterling, Rashford, Sancho all trying to play around Kane as the central dude that interlink things together.

Again, I'm not surprised that when united fans are not able to see the fluidity a player like Martial can bring to Rashford and Greenwood then they would ask why Ighalo is not playing with Rashford and Greenwood and for us to get Jimenez or Kane to break any fluidity.

Goals doesn't have to come centrally anymore, that's been dead almost since RVN left for C Ronaldo under SAF era.
 
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He'sRaldo

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Fluidity is such an underrated aspect of football in attacks.

Just because Kane can pass a ball as much as Firmino can doesnt mean that the attack remains as fluid in cohesion, balance and positioning.

Whilst origi is obviously a different class of player, you can clearly see that theres a change in fluidity to the way they play when they would have a striker like him there - whether he can pass a ball or not doesnt make much of a difference.

I see this in the England National team too - complete lack of fluidity, players like sterling, Rashford, Sancho all trying to play around Kane as the central dude that interlink things together.

Again, I'm not surprised that when united fans are not able to see the fluidity a player like Martial can bring to Rashford and Greenwood then they would ask why Ighalo is not playing with Rashford and Greenwood and for us to get Jimenez or Kane to break any fluidity.

Goals doesn't have to come centrally anymore, that's been dead almost since RVN left for C Ronaldo under SAF era.
This is it basically. Since Firmino is a forward I judge him a bit harshly, but this is a very fair appraisal of his contribution which isn't easy to replicate.

Of course one could argue that a different kind of forward would score more goals at the expense of fluidity, which is fair enough.
 

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Does Firmino get into Manchester United’s starting XI?
 

Infordin

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Classifying Firmino as World Class is just bizarre.

If the reasoning is because of the crucial role he performed for a top side, then by that logic, Fellaini is also World Class.
I would argue that Manchester United - under Mourinho and Van Gaal - was never truly a top side. But I agree that not every starter for a top side is automatically world class. Pandev was a starter for a team that won the treble, after all.

Firmino’s record for Brazil is 13 goals in 44 games. He played almost all those games as striker. That‘s a very underwhelming return.
 

JDoe

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Good player that is playing in a system that gets the most out of him IMO. Pretty sure a hard-working and technically sound striker like prime Suarez/Tevez/Rooney would look absolutely unplayable in the current Liverpool side, whereas a world class poacher like RvN for example might even make them looking worse.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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Good player that is playing in a system that gets the most out of him IMO. Pretty sure a hard-working and technically sound striker like prime Suarez/Tevez/Rooney would look absolutely unplayable in the current Liverpool side, whereas a world class poacher like RvN for example might even make them looking worse.
Prime Rooney in that Liverpool team would be disgusting
 

jackal&hyde

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I think there are a couple of positions and roles that are under rated especially in England imo. The defensive mid that is not a hard man, runs like crazy tackler like Carrick, the "cultured" defender that defends the channels very well but maybe not so dominant in the air, see the Lindelof vs Smalling debates, and the false 9 that makes those around him shine but doesn't score 30+ goals himself. Mane and Salah would not put the numbers they have been with a traditional striker in front imo.

Our own "lazy" Martial has been integral in helping Rashford put the numbers he has this season.
 

PickledRed

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Does Firmino get into Manchester United’s starting XI?
Not sure. He gets into Liverpool’s XI, though, so I guess that’s good news for him as that’s a better team by some considerable distance.
 

hasanejaz88

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Does Firmino get into Manchester United’s starting XI?
Martial-Firmino-Rashford would be pretty close to what Liverpool currently have and might unlock the goalscoring potential of both Martial and Rashford.
 

tenpoless

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Classifying Firmino as World Class is just bizarre.

If the reasoning is because of the crucial role he performed for a top side, then by that logic, Fellaini is also World Class.
Of course, He fits a team that uses long ball tactic. World class at controlling/bringing the ball down with his chest. The only player whose chest could create assists. So He must be up there among other players that have extraordinary chest controls as well.

Oh wait He is the only one. Best in world at his position.
 

hasanejaz88

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There should be a direct link in the Kolarov 'fans dont know anything' thread to this thread as illustration.
 

Gio

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Firmino’s record for Brazil is 13 goals in 44 games. He played almost all those games as striker. That‘s a very underwhelming return.
Not a great record, but he did start only around half of those games.
 

Remember the geese

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Hypothetically, could Bruno Fernandes play a similar role for us? I should state that I'm perfectly happy with Martial, whilst Fernandes himself, is obviously doing great in the position he's currently occupying. I was just wondering with the attributes he has, could he play the "Firmino role" to a high standard? He plays with a high intensity and good work rate to go along with his many technical qualities. The thought of him dropping into pockets and leaving space for two from Rashford, Greenwood, Martial and perhaps even Sancho is an interesting prospect. It would also free Pogba up to create, with the insurance of two defensive minded players behind him. Just a thought.
 

RooneyLegend

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Hypothetically, could Bruno Fernandes play a similar role for us? I should state that I'm perfectly happy with Martial, whilst Fernandes himself, is obviously doing great in the position he's currently occupying. I was just wondering with the attributes he has, could he play the "Firmino role" to a high standard? He plays with a high intensity and good work rate to go along with his many technical qualities. The thought of him dropping into pockets and leaving space for two from Rashford, Greenwood, Martial and perhaps even Sancho is an interesting prospect. It would also free Pogba up to create, with the insurance of two defensive minded players behind him. Just a thought.
Nope, not enough of an attacker to unsettle defences when running with the ball.
 

Bebestation

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This is it basically. Since Firmino is a forward I judge him a bit harshly, but this is a very fair appraisal of his contribution which isn't easy to replicate.

Of course one could argue that a different kind of forward would score more goals at the expense of fluidity, which is fair enough.
The false 9 arguably is all about fluidity of the front three because of the spaces the false 9 works in between, the depths they fall in to whilst pulling out defenders & midfielders or do the opposite and make late runs in to whilst linking with the wider forwards runs in behind.

They are the most least forward like hence the word 'false 9'. They clearly move the goal scorer more away from the defender to give them more to actually ball watch at times its beautiful.

The actual goal scorers stay out wide like salah, mane, Rashford and Greenwood this season and even David Villa were all great goal scorers - maybe the fact that messi just banged in goals for fun as a false 9 made it hard for anyone else to replicate the false 9 to that manner is unfair.

But ultimately no matter how good Zlatan was - he wouldn't blend as good in a front 3 with david villa and pedro outwide and him playing as a false 9 or a central striker because of lack of fluidity that a false 9 a messi or Firmino would give - he might get goals but the teams ability to play fluid football vs having a big lanky centralised striker that takes alot of the teams focus needs to be questioned.
 

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The reason why forums are broadly better than Twitter for football chat is that forums are not dominated by ‘hot takes’ like this thread title.

Lads on Twitter basically use a set of cherry picked stats to prove anything they want without real understanding or nuance. It’s brain dead stuff that bares no reflection with how data and statistics are used by elite clubs. Grim.