Roberto Firmino, the most overrated player in the Prem.

paraguayo

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That's your opinion but the reality is that he doesn't actually have an exceptional amount of assists in particular if as you are suggesting he is a #10 in their system. What makes him special for Liverpool is the entire package the fact that his stats are reasonable but that he also contributes a lot defensively, otherwise his stats per minutes are similar to Lacazette in the PL. Last season Lacazette had 13 goals and 10 assists in 2500 minutes which is comparable to Firmino's best seasons with 15 goals and 7 assists in 17/18 and 11 goals and 10 assists in 16/17.

The question then become, would Lacazette perform better or worse next to Mané, Salah, Robertson and TAA and would he contribute enough defensively? I would say that he would be a lot more prolific than Firmino in both goals and assists and would contribute defensively to a decent standard. If you think that it's bizarre than fair enough.
Lacazette first has to be a regular starter in middle of the pack Arsenal, before you say he would replace Firmino who was key in UCL title and in soon to be PL title and be better and more prolific.
 

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Lacazette first has to be a regular starter in middle of the pack Arsenal, before you say he would replace Firmino who was key in UCL title and in soon to be PL title and be better. Come on man..
No he doesn't have to start to make to assumption because a player may fit one team/role and not an other. Firmino wouldn't start for all teams, in fact he wouldn't start for most top teams because they don't need a player like him, they need someone that is actually able to score regurlaly around 20 league goals when he plays 3000 minutes but for Liverpool it's a different story.
 

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Suspect this is more about what type of no9 you prefer in your team. His goalscoring record isn't great, but the attack scores a lot of goals and is defensively superb, which owes a lot to his contribution.



He's just Ji-Sung Park though according to Rozay
Not sure these are accurate to be honest. Just can't see how Kenny Dalglish is only averaging 1 assist every 8 games.
 

ThierryHenry

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People will chirp back in with daftness, but it’s clear as day that Klopp sets up Liverpool with Firmino as a key player. Their attacking 5 of Robertson, Salah, Firmino, Mane, and TAA is ridiculously effective.

It would not be better with van Persie, Ibra or Vardy in place of him. His ‘replacement’ would almost certainly score more goals, but would require a complete change of tactical approach.

He’s great. No he’s not a number 9, or number 10. But he is really great in that side.
Agree that this thread has been underrating Firmino's importance hugely.

But there are plenty of forwards who could play his role better than he does, I don't agree with what you've said about replacements at all. RvP, Ibrahimovic, Kane and Rooney are the obvious ones from the recent PL. All of those can, or like to play slightly deeper, work hard, and are incredible passers. I'm also convinced that Mane and Salah are much harder to replace, and are generational talents, compared to a good player playing in a perfect set-up for his skillset (Firminho).

Unrelated, this reminds me of a question I've wanted to ask Liverpool fans - what is the point of the suggested Werner signing? Would you switch to playing 4-2-3-1, or would he just be a squad player/ rotate with the front three? Clearly would be helpful in terms of depth but I don't see how the side improves if he comes in. A front three of Werner, Mane and Salah is lopsided, you don't have anyone playing deep and will miss having a creator.
 

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Agree that this thread has been underrating Firmino's importance hugely.

But there are plenty of forwards who could play his role better than he does, I don't agree with what you've said about replacements at all. RvP, Ibrahimovic, Kane and Rooney are the obvious ones from the recent PL. All of those can, or like to play slightly deeper, work hard, and are incredible passers. I'm also convinced that Mane and Salah are much harder to replace, and are generational talents, compared to a good player playing in a perfect set-up for his skillset (Firminho).
I don’t know that you’ve seen Firmino all that much if you think that Kane, Ibra or RvP could do the job that he does. I don’t think any of them have ever been fit enough for starters. He puts in monumental shifts

Of course Rooney could have played that role. That’s a given.

Take a look at Firmino’s heat maps. They’re outrageous.

Fair go if you quarrel with the ‘who’s harder to replace’ comments though. Your call. No right answers.
 

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I don’t know that you’ve seen Firmino all that much if you think that Kane, Ibra or RvP could do the job that he does. I don’t think any of them have ever been fit enough for starters. He puts in monumental shifts

Of course Rooney could have played that role. That’s a given.

Take a look at Firmino’s heat maps. They’re outrageous.

Fair go if you quarrel with the ‘who’s harder to replace’ comments though. Your call. No right answers.
Yeah they wouldn't work as hard as he does, but would more than make up for it with more goals and assists. I feel that it's more important that the player in that role plays slightly deeper, links the midfield to the attack, and is excellent on counter attacks. Being so strong defensively is helpful, but you have three hard workers in midfield that mean it's not essential IMO.
 

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Another excellent aspect of Firmino is how well he clearly fits into the club ethos, follows the rules, gets on with others, and just works himself into the ground. He's done that for a long time now. There may be recently a bit of Spurs syndrome in him, too many games in the legs, but that personality of his is a key part of why he is so valued, which many are overlooking here. That, matched with top talent, is a fantastic combination. People throwing in Lacazette's name like he could do what Firmino does in attack and defence, come on.
 

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Agree that this thread has been underrating Firmino's importance hugely.

But there are plenty of forwards who could play his role better than he does, I don't agree with what you've said about replacements at all. RvP, Ibrahimovic, Kane and Rooney are the obvious ones from the recent PL. All of those can, or like to play slightly deeper, work hard, and are incredible passers. I'm also convinced that Mane and Salah are much harder to replace, and are generational talents, compared to a good player playing in a perfect set-up for his skillset (Firminho).

Unrelated, this reminds me of a question I've wanted to ask Liverpool fans - what is the point of the suggested Werner signing? Would you switch to playing 4-2-3-1, or would he just be a squad player/ rotate with the front three? Clearly would be helpful in terms of depth but I don't see how the side improves if he comes in. A front three of Werner, Mane and Salah is lopsided, you don't have anyone playing deep and will miss having a creator.
I've been thinking about this myself. I like the idea of a 4-2-3-1 with him up top and Firmino, Salah and Mane slightly behind him. But at the same time it would be a rather big tactical change and I'm not sure if Klopp would entertain that. Otherwise it could mean that Firmino would get some time on the bench as I can't imagine Werner would come if it wasn't to be a starter. Of course it could also just be a matter of us wanting to be able to mix it up a bit up top and give some rest to them every now and then, and having Werner, Salah, Mane and Firmino fighting it out for three spots is a nice thought. Especially if Werner can play as one of the wide forwards too. So to sum up, I don't know :lol:
 

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This post and some others are cringe as hell.


If you cant see what he brings to that team, well... You should learn more about tactics and player roles in a team. He's nearly perfect in that set up. Mind boggling thread
Agreed. I'd love to see him here at United.
 

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Just because Firmino is a system player needing a system to get the best use out of him doesnt make him crap.

Xavi is crap too, would be utter trash without the right system of players because his abilities were deficient much all around but were legendary at what he did.

You got to build a system for these players & ultimately no one gives a damn.

If the only central strikers that were useful for a team were the ones that just scored a goal always then the best midfielders would be central midfielder who had both defensive and offensive capabilities like a box to box - that's never true though is it, there is different variations of midfielders and there is different variations of a central striker.

Firmino is one of the best variations of a central striker and easily in the top 3 support striker/ False 9 players in the world.

This is also why I'm hesitant over the hatred over Martial - bring in a world class poacher so we can use that tactic when needed or to start with- but Martial is a solid support striker capable of one day being really good at what he does with the right system built around him (capable of being top 6 level). I think the hatred and wanting him sold is really unfair.
 

Bebestation

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I've been thinking about this myself. I like the idea of a 4-2-3-1 with him up top and Firmino, Salah and Mane slightly behind him. But at the same time it would be a rather big tactical change and I'm not sure if Klopp would entertain that. Otherwise it could mean that Firmino would get some time on the bench as I can't imagine Werner would come if it wasn't to be a starter. Of course it could also just be a matter of us wanting to be able to mix it up a bit up top and give some rest to them every now and then, and having Werner, Salah, Mane and Firmino fighting it out for three spots is a nice thought. Especially if Werner can play as one of the wide forwards too. So to sum up, I don't know :lol:
I've heard that Werner is shit as a striker and is best as a LW though.
 

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I've heard that Werner is shit as a striker and is best as a LW though.
Oh, okay. I'll admit I know next to nothing about him other than reading that he's pretty good and scores goals. Ideally, he'd be able to play across the forward line which would make us less vulnerable to injuries (a department where we've been very lucky this season) and provide an opportunity to sometimes rest any one of them.
 
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Oh, okay. I'll admit I know next to nothing about him other than reading that he's pretty good and scores goals. Ideally, he'd be able to play across the forward line which would make us less vulnerable to injuries (a department where we've been very lucky this season) and provide an opportunity to sometimes rest any one of them.
He's versatile, I certainly don't think he's 'shit' at striker but being on the wing does open up space for him given his main attribute is his pace. The thing that I've never liked about Werner when watching him is how selfish he is, he might have the worst tunnel vision of all time and it leads him to being very wasteful. Would have trouble playing the false 9 like Firmino although he's probably a better finisher. But if he was signed to support all across the front 3 and not push Firmino back and ruin the defensive solidity of the system, I think he'd be a great signing for Pool. Don't know if he'd accept being a 'backup' though, but from all reports he seems keen.
 

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I think he's one of those players who will always swing between underrated and overrated. Never just rated.
 

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When the whole squad is fit, Firmino is the first name on the board for Klopp. It is absolutely baffling to me that people do not realize how insanely good of a footballer Roberto Firmino is.

Maybe once you understand that for all intents and purposes Mane and Salah are Liverpools main strikers, you will start to understand.
 

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I would say yes, Tevez when he went to City and Juventus proved he could score as many goals as the top scorers
I can only assume you've never seen Cantona play.
Not comparing the quality but it’s the same with Bergkamp and Zola, all players known for more than just goalscoring, neither ever scored 20 goals in the PL, Bergkamp historically was the best goal scorer out the three but his efficiency dropped a couple years after he arrived at England, all three are better than Firmino but I feel are better comparisons to a Carlos Tevez who apart from his time at United was very prolific everywhere he went.
 

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He's versatile, I certainly don't think he's 'shit' at striker but being on the wing does open up space for him given his main attribute is his pace. The thing that I've never liked about Werner when watching him is how selfish he is, he might have the worst tunnel vision of all time and it leads him to being very wasteful. Would have trouble playing the false 9 like Firmino although he's probably a better finisher. But if he was signed to support all across the front 3 and not push Firmino back and ruin the defensive solidity of the system, I think he'd be a great signing for Pool. Don't know if he'd accept being a 'backup' though, but from all reports he seems keen.
Cheers for the info. In any case, I'm excited if we get him. I guess it's the wrong thread, so I'll leave it at that.
 

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An opinion commonly shared among Liverpool fans, so it's definitely debatable at least.

I consider Firmino one of the best in the world at what he does and brings to the team by the way, yes. If you'd ask me to name the best 5 strikers in the world, he wouldn't be a part of that list. The likes of Kane probably would but I'd never ever have him in our team ahead of Firmino. So in that sense, it's more that Firmino perfectly fits our system rather than the system makes him look good.
Kane is really good at threading balls through to the wingers and other aspects of general play. Firmino probably is better at workrate, but replace Firmino with Kane and your team goes up a notch
 

RooneyLegend

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He's holding Liverpool back from reaching untold levels at this point?

Feck me, if that's the case, god help us all!
Thankfully divine intervention won't required, just need Klopp to keep believing hes some genius.


He's just Ji-Sung Park though according to Rozay
Those stats are rubbish though when talking about past greats. Only a mad man would believe he has more assists than Kenny Dalgish.
 

RooneyLegend

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When the whole squad is fit, Firmino is the first name on the board for Klopp. It is absolutely baffling to me that people do not realize how insanely good of a footballer Roberto Firmino is.

Maybe once you understand that for all intents and purposes Mane and Salah are Liverpools main strikers, you will start to understand.
I understand and yet im the one who started the thread. He's a no10 lacking elite productivity despite playing with forwards like Mane and Salah. He's got an inconsistent final ball and isnt an elite goal threat for that role. He also doesnt have elite individualistic quality, pretty sure isnt all that at making things happen out of nothing.
 

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I don't think Firmino is a great goal scorer. The numbers back that up. He's not in our team to be the main goal scorer though. He's there to supplement the way we play and allow space for Mane/Salah to exploit. Players like those two struggle when there's little or no space for them to move into. They love one on ones and the chance to have a clean run at the opposition.

If you take Firmino out and put a more orthodox number 9 like Kane or Vardy in our team, I'm sure either one of them would score goals but it'd see Mane/Salah's play suffer.

If we lose Firmino to a long term injury or ended up selling him, Klopp would have to completely adjust the shape of the team. Origi can't do what Firmino does and neither can Minamino.

Firmino's work off the ball is also critical to how we play. He's basically a midfielder playing as a number 9.
 

paraguayo

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No he doesn't have to start to make to assumption because a player may fit one team/role and not an other. Firmino wouldn't start for all teams, in fact he wouldn't start for most top teams because they don't need a player like him, they need someone that is actually able to score regurlaly around 20 league goals when he plays 3000 minutes but for Liverpool it's a different story.
Well at least pick someone with good stats to make your mad assumption. To just pick a random player that doesn't start anymore for Arsenal and say he'd be a more prolific Firmino is just disprespecting the player. Frankly, this whole thread is that, it's what people here criticize RAWK for.. And I'm not saying Lacazette is crap either
 
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JPRouve

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Well at least pick someone with good stats to make your mad assumption. To just pick a random player that doesn't start anymore for Arsenal and say he'd be a more prolific Firmino is just disprespecting the player. Frankly, this whole thread is that, it's what people here criticize RAWK for.. And I'm not saying Lacazette is crap either
I picked someone that has better stats per minutes than Firmino, it's also someone that has started the majority of his games this season and it's not a good thing for Firmino's case, so I'm not sure why you are clinking on the "doesn't start anymore". In a way it kind of shows that the OP may be onto something, you didn't even realize that Lacazette had better stats.

Just to make it clear, it doesn't matter if you use per minutes or per game. Per game they both have an average of 0.58 G+A and per minutes in the PL Lacazette registers a G/A every 116 minutes while Firmino does it every 135 minutes. So if using an already more prolific Lacazette is a disrespect than @RooneyLegend has a point.
 

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I picked someone that has better stats per minutes than Firmino, it's also someone that has started the majority of his games this season and it's not a good thing for Firmino's case, so I'm not sure why you are clinking on the "doesn't start anymore". In a way it kind of shows that the OP may be onto something, you didn't even realize that Lacazette had better stats.

Just to make it clear, it doesn't matter if you use per minutes or per game. Per game they both have an average of 0.58 G+A and per minutes in the PL Lacazette registers a G/A every 116 minutes while Firmino does it every 135 minutes. So if using an already more prolific Lacazette is a disrespect than @RooneyLegend has a point.
Its just so silly to use these stats. Every team needs someone to fill the stat sheets. I can find someone in Ludogorets with the same G+A ratio, or in any other team that exists basically. What you can't find is a trio that has insane chemistry and is winning everything.
 

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I don't think Firmino is a great goal scorer. The numbers back that up. He's not in our team to be the main goal scorer though. He's there to supplement the way we play and allow space for Mane/Salah to exploit. Players like those two struggle when there's little or no space for them to move into. They love one on ones and the chance to have a clean run at the opposition.

If you take Firmino out and put a more orthodox number 9 like Kane or Vardy in our team, I'm sure either one of them would score goals but it'd see Mane/Salah's play suffer.

If we lose Firmino to a long term injury or ended up selling him, Klopp would have to completely adjust the shape of the team. Origi can't do what Firmino does and neither can Minamino.

Firmino's work off the ball is also critical to how we play. He's basically a midfielder playing as a number 9.
I'll give you Vardy, but Kane would be terrific in your set up. His on the ball ability is excellent, his passing too, and he has great workrate. It's only conjecture, but I'm pretty sure he could do what Firmino does, and probably rack up more goals.

While it's not that important, it's to underline he's not exactly this unique gem that some are trying to make out he is - he's very important to Klopp's system, but he's not the only player who can do this. There are other players, both past and current, that would be suited to the role, and maybe better suited as they wouldn't be as wasteful as he can be - but it matters little, given the stat freaks you guys have playing on your wings.
 

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Its just so silly to use these stats. Every team needs someone to fill the stat sheets. I can find someone in Ludogorets with the same G+A ratio, or in any other team that exists basically. What you can't find is a trio that has insane chemistry and is winning everything.
Of course, it's not as if Lacazette was doing it in the league Firmino is playing in which is why Ludogorets is a pertinent point. As for the last point, I haven't disputed the idea that he was a great fit for Liverpool but lets not pretend that he would be irreplaceable, neither his stats nor his style are irreplaceable. There is no reason to replace him but if Liverpool had to, they would do it without too much trouble.
 

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He is a very good player and absolutely perfect for the way Liverpool play - he is not as good as Salah and nowhere near as good as Mane in my opinion (who is by far Liverpool's best player) but he would probably be a starter in every other team in the league.
 

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I think he's a decent player and fits well in the system well but I think there a number of strikers that could slot in and make Liverpool a better team. He's one of the most replaceable players in that Liverpool team for me. Sure, someone like Lukaku wouldn't fit in that team, but there are plenty of strikers who are good enough technically that are a lot more prolific than him. In the PL this season, he's also missed the most big chances.

I think Pedro at Barca was much better than Firmino at Liverpool, but I see similarities, that if you were to take him out of that set up, you'll see he's really not all that special.
 

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He is a very good player and absolutely perfect for the way Liverpool play - he is not as good as Salah and nowhere near as good as Mane in my opinion (who is by far Liverpool's best player) but he would probably be a starter in every other team in the league.
I'm not sure about that to be honest. I think his poor finishing would hamper his chances to be a no.9 at other teams in the league and I'm not convinced he's all that good in the no.10 position either. I personally don't think he's be a guaranteed starter at City, Leicester, United, Wolves, Spurs or Arsenal. Even at Chelsea, while I rate him higher than Abraham, I don't think he's fit into that team particularly well.
 

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I understand and yet im the one who started the thread. He's a no10 lacking elite productivity despite playing with forwards like Mane and Salah. He's got an inconsistent final ball and isnt an elite goal threat for that role. He also doesnt have elite individualistic quality, pretty sure isnt all that at making things happen out of nothing.
When you say that he "isn't an elite goal threat for that role" it just says to me that you, although you claim to, haven't quite understood his role in the team Klopp has put together. Firminos role is fairly unique, his main job is to create space, and draw out the backline for Salah and Mane to exploit. I would also argue that your claim of Firmino not possessing "elite individualistic qualities" is empirically wrong. Off the ball, he is the best forward in the world period. His skills, first touch, and flair are on par with anyone. He also has a lot of goals in him. I used to watch him play every week in the Bundesliga, and for me it is quite clear that he is sacrificing his goal scoring stats for the betterment of his team in Liverpool.

I'm just going to say it, and this is obviously just my opinion, but I honestly do not see any other striker in the world who would strengthen Liverpool the way they play now. And remember, the way Liverpool play now has made them the best team in England, maybe even in the world. All of that revolves around Roberto Firmino.

Sure, Lewandowski and Kane would score more goals, but the team as a whole would suffer for it. Suarez a couple of years ago, but too old now.

Fikayo Tomori said this a week ago, which I think is a fair assessment
"In the Championship you have a lot of different strikers - some love it in the air or like to go in behind. But then I'm playing against [Roberto] Firmino and he's dropping deep into midfield. Things happen a lot faster and mistakes are punished more harshly.

"Firmino was probably the most difficult [to play against] - along with Salah. Every time they got the ball, I was thinking, 'This is a challenge but this is where I want to be - this is a chance to prove that I can play at this level.'"
 

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Of course, it's not as if Lacazette was doing it in the league Firmino is playing in which is why Ludogorets is a pertinent point. As for the last point, I haven't disputed the idea that he was a great fit for Liverpool but lets not pretend that he would be irreplaceable, neither his stats nor his style are irreplaceable. There is no reason to replace him but if Liverpool had to, they would do it without too much trouble.
Rather than looking at pointless stats (which Griezmann would be a pub level player this season since you mentioned him, which he isn't), I would then ask Klopp and Liverpool fans who'd they rather have. They would laugh at the idea that you can just replace him with average players like Lacazette
 

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Rather than looking at pointless stats (which Griezmann is a pub level player this season since you mentioned him), I would then ask Klopp and Liverpool fans who'd they rather have. They would laugh at the idea that you can just replace him with average players like Lacazette
Sure, goals and assists are pointless stats in Football and of course Griezmann who has comparable stats to Firmino is a pub player. The problem here is that you seem to think that everyone but Firmino is a pub player when they have Firmino's end product which kind of support the point of the OP.
 

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I think he's the "perfect" player to hold the ball up and assist mane/salah, but you wouldn't want him leading your line withour them supporting IMO.

He's good but I would say he gets the liverpool 10% added bonus from the media especially.
 

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Sure, goals and assists are pointless stats in Football and of course Griezmann who has comparable stats to Firmino is a pub player. The problem here is that you seem to think that everyone but Firmino is a pub player when they have Firmino's end product which kind of support the point of the OP.
You were the one dismissing him like he's easily replacable. I didn't say he's the best player ever either. I just hate this notion that you can google on transfermarkt someone with similar stats and say "There, put him in his place. Tada"

Firmino is never the most advanced player in the play. His strenghts are layoffs, dummies, backheels and finding ruptures in the center, so someone gets free in the fullback spots. Its actually crucial everything he does, and there are very few players good at doing those moves. Those ruptures create an empty channel for robertson or AA who then find a deadly cross to mane, salah or wijlandum or firmino bombing forward (like he's a box to box almost).

Also, I only have 5 posts per day so we've both made our points, I really don't want to waste all my posts on this thread. Edit: Also I didn't say Griezmann was a pub player, he's great..
 

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Yeah they wouldn't work as hard as he does, but would more than make up for it with more goals and assists. I feel that it's more important that the player in that role plays slightly deeper, links the midfield to the attack, and is excellent on counter attacks. Being so strong defensively is helpful, but you have three hard workers in midfield that mean it's not essential IMO.
Ibra and RvP might outscore Firmino, but that would be outweighed by the reduction in output from Mane and Salah.

He is not in the team to score, or even assist all that much. He is there to turn over possession and initiate quick attacks. Liverpool like to press high up the pitch and he is the one who leads it. There are very few players in the league who could do it to the level he does, I don't think even Rooney could as he always wanted to get in the middle of everything.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
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You were the one dismissing him like he's easily replacable. I didn't say he's the best player ever either. I just hate this notion that you can google on transfermarkt someone with similar stats and say "There, put him in his place. Tada"

Firmino is never the most advanced player in the play. His strenghts are layoffs, dummies, backheels and finding ruptures in the center, so someone gets free in the fullback spots. Its actually crucial everything he does, and there are very few players good at doing those moves. Those ruptures create an empty channel for robertson or AA who then find a deadly cross to mane, salah or wijlandum or firmino bombing forward (like he's a box to box almost).

Also, I only have 5 posts per day so we've both made our points, I really don't want to waste all my posts on this thread
I wasn't dismissing him, I said throughout this thread that he was a great fit for Liverpool and a very good player but there are good/very good football players that could potentially replace him within Liverpool system. I mentioned the players that I did due to their overall game and the way they could interact with Mané and Salah while also contributing defensively, on the last part I did say that it was the major question mark.

You are the one who initially focused on stats and then moved the goalpost when you realized that it wasn't a good idea. It's probably best to move on since you are going to find new excuses.
 

fps

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If the system works and there are a lot of better players than him for that system, in his role, the hype makes him overrated.
And it would definitely be harder to replace Mane and Salah, both whom I don't consider overrated. You think it'd be easier to replace Salah? are you out of your mind? A lazy comment based on nothing but stats, probably.
But there's no evidence that there are better players than him for that system, in that role. So you don't have an argument. They won the European Cup and are basically runaway Premier League champions. He is clearly fantastic in that role.

Football is now a game of systems. He is one of a small handful in the world who are perfect for what Klopp wants to do.