I see he has affected you deeply
Rome wasn't built in a day
- Thread starter VP89
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I see it other way. I see a major rush from Ole fans to undermine any managers , if they don't turn it around in 5 matches.
Looks like sacking Ole has deeply affected people like you.
This logic is really annoying and lazy. Had Tuchel been in from the start, Conte been in the league from the start, Klopp not had the crazy injury crisis, Ole wouldn't be near 2nd.
This season showed where he truly was to be honest.
He's affected me deeply
I think I have to admit it.Hoarding at least 6-7 players who don't have a future, outright lying to the cameras and saying "we're building something here" when it was clear they weren't, suggesting tactics isn't really relevant in football and spunking hundreds of millions on players that aren't even good enough for us.
Yeah, I'm not best pleased with him. Still love the guy because he genuinely cares for the club and is a legend as a player, but as a manager he unknowingly did a real number on the club.
you dont think ralf should be able to be better than newcastle and norwich given the quality of player we have versus theirs? even if he has only now been coaching for several weeks. most people think we should be playing better.
I think we are in Romes last days rather than the beginning of Rome. We are a falling giant who hasn’t even fell down all the way yet. Our emperors are drinking wine, partying and taking money for themselves (the glazers). While other tribes are investing in their army and working hard to win (Man City, Chelsea, Newcastle etc).
I would love Ralf to be given power but the reality is that even if he was given the power over managers and transfers (which we know he wont). He can’t invest money, stop debt repayments and dividend going out which is crippling us.
I would love Ralf to be given power but the reality is that even if he was given the power over managers and transfers (which we know he wont). He can’t invest money, stop debt repayments and dividend going out which is crippling us.
Ofcourse. But I also think it's hard to judge him after limited training sessions and Covid outbreak (both Newcastle and Norwich)
Yesterday was the day after some decent training sessions and I did see some improvements but everything went of a cliff in the last 30 mins. While I am not convinced yet, I don't think I am ready to call for his head yet. It would be quite unreasonable and ignorant.
We are changing the way how we play the game. We are going to see lot of inconsistent performances in the next month or two.
This is the lazy logic.
And I said top 4, not top 3. Unless of course you think finishing above Spurs is an insurmountable task for Rangnik.
Its not lazy logic. Its fact. This season showed Oles true value as a manager, which is completely out of his depth.
Good post. You can't cry about incoherent footballing decisions and expect immediate results at the same time.
At least the board have chosen a clear path to go down with Rangnick. I still think he's in the wrong job, but whatever. At least we went for the right guy, which is progress.
I'm afraid I'm not a Rome-building expert.
That said, I'm pretty sure Luton wasn't built in a day either and our trajectory looks more like it.
The only difference I see with RR is we are starting better though lets be honest , losing a goal in the first 5 mins every single game was unbelievable and surely any competent person could stop that.
After 20 mins its back to the same old garbage as under Ole and its not a surprise as:
Same McFred doing exactly the same in midfield.
Same Rashford running aimlessly with the ball and not running without it.
Same Greenwood not knowing he can pass the ball sometimes.
Same Bruno looking for killer passes EVERY time he is on the ball( he was better yesterday I concede)
Same Maguire, Lindelof getting caught out of position.
Same Matic blowing out his arse after half time.
Same Sancho looking like a lost soul and not a patch on his twin brother from Dortmund.
Same DVB getting on in the 88th minute and getting slagged off on the match thread for not turning the game ( read yesterday Unbelievable).
Ralf can talk about 4222, 4231, 343 all he wants. If the same players are playing the same way, you are going to get the same results. Im no coach but that is what I am seeing.
After 20 mins its back to the same old garbage as under Ole and its not a surprise as:
Same McFred doing exactly the same in midfield.
Same Rashford running aimlessly with the ball and not running without it.
Same Greenwood not knowing he can pass the ball sometimes.
Same Bruno looking for killer passes EVERY time he is on the ball( he was better yesterday I concede)
Same Maguire, Lindelof getting caught out of position.
Same Matic blowing out his arse after half time.
Same Sancho looking like a lost soul and not a patch on his twin brother from Dortmund.
Same DVB getting on in the 88th minute and getting slagged off on the match thread for not turning the game ( read yesterday Unbelievable).
Ralf can talk about 4222, 4231, 343 all he wants. If the same players are playing the same way, you are going to get the same results. Im no coach but that is what I am seeing.
Yet one manager managed third and second places with them (and, yes, he needed to go).
Rubbish
Compelety set of different circumstances.
It's not though, he won nothing. Even LVG and Jose got top 4. Moyes didnt get beyond the first season but if he spent what Ole did who knows after that point. Ole was shite.
This is where I am at too. Things will get worse, the summer will be a fecking nightmare with players and agents whinging as they get binned off, but we need that clear out to start building again. This time we have a football man setting the direction instead of money men.
We also need to remember Rangnick is not a top manager, he's here for a different reason. Don't expect miracles on the pitch from him.
At the moment, I don't think it's possible to argue that we are building for the long term. There is no clarity on the direction, either in terms of playing style or management. The squad? From one perspective you can argue it just needs a few tweaks (weeding out some malcontents and strengthening in a couple of positions), from another you can argue that the collective failure we're seeing this season points in the direction of having to blow it up and start over once more. Finding out where we are between those two poles is I think what the rest of this season is about.
That, and getting into Europe. It's going to take a really, really good rest of season to achieve top 4. Spurs and Arsenal both have a reasonable shot at getting to 75 points. For us to get to 75, we can only lose another three plus one draw.
I only pray we don't finish 7th and have to play in the Europa Conference League next season. It'd be like a ritual humiliation every game we played. I'd honestly rather we finished 8th.
I’m sure back in the day Redulux Cafus complained on day 2: „We gave you grass and mud yesterday, where‘s the fecking coliseum you promised. We‘re the laughing stock of the empire.“
This. Nail hit on the head. He was bought in as a buffer to identify whch players can adapt and play and which ones just here for the easy ride. In the summer I can see a big exodus of players, not so many bought in.
Well said.
Your right. The problem is we say then the club makes more stupid mistakes.
You need several years of good squad construction and good coaching. we have never had that in the post Fergie era.
We arn’t even at the point when we can say next year yet. We are at the point where we we need to start thinking about where foundations should go so we can start to build something.
The problem is we don’t have a hierarchy at the club who have a clue how to put those foundations in place. That’s been the problem since Fergie left, and realistically there are no signs of it changing.
Unless that does change your right this is our future.
Bit of a strange analogy seeing as Liverpool did eventually get their shit together, won a few domestic trophies, then the Champions League, then the Premier League. So it’s hardly out of the question that we do the same.
Unfortunately since Fergie retired any time we try and build Rome by the time it's finished it looks more like Birmingham and we have to knock it down again. But don't worry we'll get there eventually, i hope.
This feels like the first genuine transition period that Utd have had post-Fergie. I don't expect much success this season but I am excited about next season.
Agreed. Ralf’s philosophy is to get younger, quicker players in. Teaching those lot patterns of play and movement would be easier, and take us away from splashing on big signings for players excelling in already well drilled sides (maguire, sancho). Instead if it really is Ten Hag getting those young players and letting him mound them is the right move going forward. Adding a piece to a puzzle is way different when the puzzle isn’t really there.
This logic is lazy actually. I can twist it saying, other teams are only better cause United are shit.
Klopp had defensive injuries, the midfield and forwards were all available. So how did they go on a 10 game run with the defence? They had Gomez and VVD injured most of the season, Gomez who hardly plays a game for them.
Tuchel has been in from the start this season, he is in a top 4 race too.
They bolstered their defence and welcomed back their full backs.
And its not silly logic is it, its based on facts. If Tuchel Pep and Klopp start their seasons as normal, Ole gets found out quicker as being well off the pace. Thats before you put Conte in the equation.
Oh sorry, Injuries are only allowed if they occur to Manutd. What do you mean if Pep starts his season normal? We had the same issues last season, we had the Europa final in August whilst Liverpool, Chelsea had the whole of August off.
Secondly, welcomed back their full backs? which one was injured?
Tuchel is there this season, let me give you a good stat... they are 11 points of the leaders, same as last season when Lampard was sacked.
Spurs last season were in a title race in november with Jose, ofcourse people forget that to put a narrative together.
I mean if the trio of managers start their season as normal. Pep started his season as normal last year and ended it miles in front of Ole regardless.
And I'm not forgetting anything. I know Spurs collapsed under Jose, which was why I never bothered to mention him - he's over the hill and everyone knew that he was a non entity before his first game for Spurs.
Teams have these every season, moments of form.
Also, can you clarify which Liverpool full backs were injured for the season?
Also, they bought Kabak and Davies who then became bench players, they ended with 10 games winning run with Nat Phillips at the back.
Isn't Ragnick mostly known for his work as a DoF rather than a coach/manager?
Move him upstaris at the end of the season, feck of Ed and co and bring in Ten Haag or whataver manager RR thinks fits into his philosphy.
The problem we've had since 2013 is that there hasnt been a clear vision or holostic approach from the very top at the club. Hiering managers with completely different approaches and letting them buy "their own players" is the reason we are in this mess.
Move him upstaris at the end of the season, feck of Ed and co and bring in Ten Haag or whataver manager RR thinks fits into his philosphy.
The problem we've had since 2013 is that there hasnt been a clear vision or holostic approach from the very top at the club. Hiering managers with completely different approaches and letting them buy "their own players" is the reason we are in this mess.
Ed has already left.
Arnold will officially succeed Woodward on 1. February as our CEO.
Rangnick will become some kind of a consultant after the end of the season.
Rangnick will become some kind of a consultant after the end of the season.
Apologies I can't recall any full backs being out actually but they had pretty much the whole CB roster out. Which yeah, fecks the team up sideways. It doesn't really matter if they won 10 on the trot in isolated periods. You're just pointing out that runs of forms can happen at any time, not that Ole didn't have a ridiculous handicap last season.
I know, but we should feck him off regardless
Ole didnt have any handicap? Yes ofcourse. Narratives for days. So if Liverpool lose games, its injuries, if City lose because they didn't have a good start, if Chelsea are 11 points behind which they were last season its cause they didnt have Tuchel.
But if United finished second with a poor start, its because others were crap.
I can twist it saying, the other clubs doing well because Manutd are shit this season, not that they are good.
fecksake, if you think Ole had the injuries focused so heavily in defence to key players then that's on you. It's no narrative. Not a single sane person will point to Ole as having the same injury issues that Klopp had last season.
United finished 2nd last season because others were indeed pretty shite, uncharacteristically. If you can't see that then lets just end the debate. It's such an obvious point for anyone to see, only those with rose tinted glasses think Ole was 2nd because he was such a great manager and we were so good as a team. We scraped so many wins for fecksake
Spurs reset, Chelsea reset, Klopp had an injury crisis for half a season and still finished pretty close to us.Fast forward to this season, no handicaps, if anything Ole builds further with CL Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo and he gets found out as a nothing coach with no trophies. In other words normal service resumes and he's given the axe. Just like Jose and Lampard, he's not at the level.
fecksake, if you think Ole had the injuries focused so heavily in defence to key players then that's on you. It's no narrative. Not a single sane person will point to Ole as having the same injury issues that Klopp had last season.
United finished 2nd last season because others were indeed pretty shite, uncharacteristically. If you can't see that then lets just end the debate. It's such an obvious point for anyone to see, only those with rose tinted glasses think Ole was 2nd because he was such a great manager and we were so good as a team. We scraped so many wins for fecksake
Fast forward to this season, no handicaps, if anything Ole builds further with CL Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo and he gets found out as a nothing coach with no trophies. In other words normal service resumes and he's given the axe. Just like Jose and Lampard, he's not at the level.
Okay, so what happened when we finished 3rd the season before, did the teams uncharacteristically play shitte?
I did not say Ole is a great manager.
Right so because he had a poor season this season, he got found out.
I guess Tuchel, if he doesnt win anything this year has been found out?
Conte was found out when he won the league and Chelsea finished 8th? Same as Jose?
Klopp was found out when Dortmund finished lower?
It’s obviously a factor. Surely you get that?
How likely is it that Spurs and Chelsea both sack their managers after awful starts to the season, Arsenal finish 8th and Jurgen Klopp’s Liverpool lose 6 league games at Anfield? (9 overall)
That’s a pretty extraordinary set of circumstances which obviously made it easier than usual to secure second place. Hence we managed it with a paltry 74 points. Which would have left us in 5th place, the last season we managed to finish 2nd (2017/18)