Russia's at it again

Fosu-Mens

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But my point is the West also meddles in elections and has been doing it for a long time. I get that it might influence you negatively in this case, but Western governments do the exact same thing, yet they expect their opponents to play a fair game. That's not how the world works. There is a reason for intelligence and counter-intelligence agencies to exist, the silent or proxy wars will always go on, as unfortunate as that is for regular citizens on either side.

I can give many examples from my own country, but I'm a bit short on time right now, might do it later.
I 100% agree with you on this. My complaint about this being especially bad now is due to the fact that all the countries on Earth should have 1 main priority: Climate change. This becomes kinda difficult when the most powerful and influential countries are more interested in the short term elements or winning some proxy war that might give them an advantage for the next 5-10 years by getting some idiot elected into a certain position...

If not for the climate change threat I would have called Russian meddling more or less fair game compared to what some western countries have done over the years.
 

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I 100% agree with you on this. My complaint about this being especially bad now is due to the fact that all the countries on Earth should have 1 main priority: Climate change. This becomes kinda difficult when the most powerful and influential countries are more interested in the short term elements or winning some proxy war that might give them an advantage for the next 5-10 years by getting some idiot elected into a certain position...

If not for the climate change threat I would have called Russian meddling more or less fair game compared to what some western countries have done over the years.
You need communication and consensus to deal with climate change properly. The fact is that again financial interests will always prevent a proper discussion between the big countries, literally everyone has a stake in it, whether its pro or anti certain solutions, it always comes down to money and resources.

Russia publicly has stated it wants dialogue with the US, EU and NATO. But they want it to be on equal terms, not as some master against it's vassal. You mentioned historical circumstances, I'm sure you are well aware of the Russian heritage and mentality, they won't back down at no cost and the isolation that they were put in by the West since 2008 has shown that perfectly well. And I'm not picking sides by saying this, I'm just stating the truth and the reality of what is happening.
 

Fosu-Mens

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You need communication and consensus to deal with climate change properly. The fact is that again financial interests will always prevent a proper discussion between the big countries, literally everyone has a stake in it, whether its pro or anti certain solutions, it always comes down to money and resources.

Russia publicly has stated it wants dialogue with the US, EU and NATO. But they want it to be on equal terms, not as some master against it's vassal. You mentioned historical circumstances, I'm sure you are well aware of the Russian heritage and mentality, they won't back down at no cost and the isolation that they were put in by the West since 2008 has shown that perfectly well. And I'm not picking sides by saying this, I'm just stating the truth and the reality of what is happening.
Some of the drawbacks with capitalism and large semi-democratic countries... If there only was a good authoritarian dictator doing what was needed and then giving up the power after some time.

There is some history there, hence my Napoleon/Swede reference. How far back into the Russian heritage should we go or consider? Back to Kievan Rus?
As long as one understands that there are two sides to the Russia/Western conflict, then there is no need to pick sides. As a person coming from a western country, I find it often irritating how one-sided or biased the reporting is --> Every case is portrayed as Russian doing evil things, while as you state, the reality is more nuanced.

There are enough bad cases on both sides (Russian election meddling and assassinations of certain citizens and western indirect industrial "colonizations of resources" in less developed countries and meddling in elections) for both sides to have a valid claim to be the bad guys.
 

DoomSlayer

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Some of the drawbacks with capitalism and large semi-democratic countries... If there only was a good authoritarian dictator doing what was needed and then giving up the power after some time.

There is some history there, hence my Napoleon/Swede reference. How far back into the Russian heritage should we go or consider? Back to Kievan Rus?
As long as one understands that there are two sides to the Russia/Western conflict, then there is no need to pick sides. As a person coming from a western country, I find it often irritating how one-sided or biased the reporting is --> Every case is portrayed as Russian doing evil things, while as you state, the reality is more nuanced.

There are enough bad cases on both sides (Russian election meddling and assassinations of certain citizens and western indirect industrial "colonizations of resources" in less developed countries and meddling in elections) for both sides to have a valid claim to be the bad guys.
Hahaha, I actually understand completely what you are saying with the first sentence. :lol: It's something that has always conflicted my mind, because I'm a nice person by nature, so I wish everyone had their liberties and we lived in some sort of utopia, but the pragmatic and realistic side I have developed of myself throughout the years has helped me realise how and why the world works as it does.

I mean, yes, you can go as far back as that point in time. Russia and their nation has always had that mindset of doing something "righteous", back then they were stopping the massive invasions from the East that would have seriously damaged Medieval and undeveloped Europe. I don't know if you are aware of their theory for being the "third Roman empire" and the last bastion of Orthodox Christianity. It all adds to their national pride, mentality and culture, although I know nowadays it's very popular to bash religion because of its' obvious downsides, but people seriously neglect the cultural affect and the way it has formed the development of a whole society, and even political systems. It's a very huge topic altogether, which I think is not debated enough nowadays because of the stigma against religion and the strong need to separate state and religion, as it obviously was detrimental to European countries and their development.

Your last statement is also very correct, there can be no separation, at least in my eyes. I've always been an utopian kind of guy, but my experiences have taught me that when it comes to international affairs, being realistic is far better in order to deal and understand what is actually happening. I guess in the end it turns to a philosophical question as well about humans in general.
 

Fosu-Mens

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Hahaha, I actually understand completely what you are saying with the first sentence. :lol: It's something that has always conflicted my mind, because I'm a nice person by nature, so I wish everyone had their liberties and we lived in some sort of utopia, but the pragmatic and realistic side I have developed of myself throughout the years has helped me realise how and why the world works as it does.

I mean, yes, you can go as far back as that point in time. Russia and their nation has always had that mindset of doing something "righteous", back then they were stopping the massive invasions from the East that would have seriously damaged Medieval and undeveloped Europe. I don't know if you are aware of their theory for being the "third Roman empire" and the last bastion of Orthodox Christianity. It all adds to their national pride, mentality and culture, although I know nowadays it's very popular to bash religion because of its' obvious downsides, but people seriously neglect the cultural affect and the way it has formed the development of a whole society, and even political systems. It's a very huge topic altogether, which I think is not debated enough nowadays because of the stigma against religion and the strong need to separate state and religion, as it obviously was detrimental to European countries and their development.

Your last statement is also very correct, there can be no separation, at least in my eyes. I've always been an utopian kind of guy, but my experiences have taught me that when it comes to international affairs, being realistic is far better in order to deal and understand what is actually happening. I guess in the end it turns to a philosophical question as well about humans in general.
The problem with most dictators, evil or good, is that while it might be efficient in its governing, there tends to be a Pareto distribution towards those who get it better and those who get f*cked.

Third Roman Empire --> Moscow as the "cultural" inheritor to 1. Rome and 2. Byzantium? Mostly superficial or "know about". Religion, while historically vital to understand change is a tool for good and evil. All depends on its user. I am aware of the strong position the Orthodox church got in most Slavic countries and its connection to the government in Russia, but not a deep and holistic understanding. A tl:dr would be appreciated.
 

DoomSlayer

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The problem with most dictators, evil or good, is that while it might be efficient in its governing, there tends to be a Pareto distribution towards those who get it better and those who get f*cked.

Third Roman Empire --> Moscow as the "cultural" inheritor to 1. Rome and 2. Byzantium? Mostly superficial or "know about". Religion, while historically vital to understand change is a tool for good and evil. All depends on its user. I am aware of the strong position the Orthodox church got in most Slavic countries and its connection to the government in Russia, but not a deep and holistic understanding. A tl:dr would be appreciated.
Absolutely. I feel like every extreme form of governance creates a societal imbalance. History has shown us the fate of kingdoms, empires, fully communist and fully capitalistic states. In the end there is always an elite echelon of people who rule mostly for their own benefit. That's why I personally believe that every situation requires a different approach, though it may sound a bit harsh to some people.

Yeah, that's the gist of the whole theory - Russia being the inheritor of Byzantium. I used to study that in uni and from what I remember, when Constantinople was sieged and conquered by the Ottomans, all the main symbols of the empire, crowns, texts, information were send to Russia. That's where the Russian double-headed eagle symbol comes from, which was used by the former empires. Of course it's a theory and there are other sources that have a bit different claims, but I believe most of them come to a similar conclusion.

The Orthodox church has and has had a very strong influence in the cultural development of Russia and the so called "slavic" nations. It's a very difficult relationship between church and state, there are so many circumstances, but I can speak for my country personally - it has been a major cornerstone for the enlightenment of our nation and helped preserve the national identity during the Ottoman rulership, which at the beginning was even enslavement and genocide towards the ethnicities that were conquered. A lot of our prominent historical figures and writers have been church scholars, educating people, providing hiding places and writing texts concerning the glorious history of the nation in order to try and create an uprising inside the empire. It's a very long story, I'm not sure I can explain everything that well, but there are many sources on the Internet that would be very helping.
 
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Fosu-Mens

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Absolutely. I feel like every extreme form of governance creates a societal imbalance. History has shown us the fate of kingdoms, empires, fully communist and fully capitalistic states. In the end there is always an elite echelon of people who rule mostly for their own benefit. That's why I personally believe that every situation requires a different approach, though it may sound a bit harsh to some people.

Yeah, that's the gist of the whole theory - Russia being the inheritor of Byzantium. I used to study that in uni and from what I remember, when Constantinople was sieged and conquered by the Ottomans, all the main symbols of the empire, crowns, texts, information were send to Russia. That's where the Russian double-headed eagle symbol comes from, which was used by the former empires. Of course it's a theory and there are other sources that have a bit different claims, but I believe most of them come to a similar conclusion.

The Orthodox church has and has had a very strong influence in the cultural development of Russia and the so called "slavic" nations. It's a very difficult relationship between church and state, there are so many circumstances, but I can speak for my country personally - it has been a major cornerstone for the enlightenment of our nation and helped preserve the national identity during the Ottoman rulership, which at the beginning was even enslavement and genocide towards the ethnicities that were conquered. A lot of our prominent historical figures and writers have been church scholars, educating people, providing hiding places and writing texts concerning the glorious history of the nation in order to try and create an uprising inside the empire. It's a very long story, I'm not sure I can explain everything that well, but there are many sources on the Internet that would be very helping.

There have been some "benevolent" authoritarian leaders over the years --> Tomas Sankare , Mustafa Ataturk and Antonio Salazar. I think that there are some common elements among these people as they have gained power when there was a great need for change in their Country. There are certainly more people that could be classified as an authoritarian leader (Kings, Queens etc) over the years and governed in a "historical context inserted" good way.

I think one can generalize that what the orthodox church did for certain "slavic" countries during the bad times is how religion in general works in societies. When in bad times, religion acts as the cultural fundament for the people having a bad time (enslaved, oppressed etc). When the bad times are over, religion becomes more like a tradition.
 

DoomSlayer

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There have been some "benevolent" authoritarian leaders over the years --> Tomas Sankare , Mustafa Ataturk and Antonio Salazar. I think that there are some common elements among these people as they have gained power when there was a great need for change in their Country. There are certainly more people that could be classified as an authoritarian leader (Kings, Queens etc) over the years and governed in a "historical context inserted" good way.

I think one can generalize that what the orthodox church did for certain "slavic" countries during the bad times is how religion in general works in societies. When in bad times, religion acts as the cultural fundament for the people having a bad time (enslaved, oppressed etc). When the bad times are over, religion becomes more like a tradition.
I agree with you on both topics. My thinking was more about how using a perceived "ideal" way of governance and rule creates extreme environments that in general end up totally different from what was initially sought.

In my opinion, Western philosophy made a mistake in believing that "the end of history", in the words of Fukuyama, truly occured with the dissolution of the USSR. Whilst not being a very refined historian myself, from my knowledge, the past has shown us that circumstances change very quickly and nobody should realistically expect the world to be totally stable all the time, because human nature is volatile and is affected by many different factors of life that surround us.

It's true that globalisation has in some ways ensured that the world is more connected and that the dependencies of people's well being are more visible in some aspects, but it also created a new environment and provided new ways to the powerful and over-ambitious to still seek their way of dominance. The fact that the world has never been so big in human history provides so much more opportunities for those ready and able to take them, for good or bad. I have always been fascinated about the conflicting theories about the "state of nature" from Thomas Hobbes and John Locke. Even before starting my university studies, my mind was questioning stuff that they cover in their work so when I was reading extracts from their books, it was a bit mind-boggling to see that I wasn't wrong or too much off the mark in trying to figure out why human nature is so polarising (or is it polariZing, I get confused with American and English use of "s" and "z" sometimes :lol:)
 

Fosu-Mens

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I agree with you on both topics. My thinking was more about how using a perceived "ideal" way of governance and rule creates extreme environments that in general end up totally different from what was initially sought.

In my opinion, Western philosophy made a mistake in believing that "the end of history", in the words of Fukuyama, truly occured with the dissolution of the USSR. Whilst not being a very refined historian myself, from my knowledge, the past has shown us that circumstances change very quickly and nobody should realistically expect the world to be totally stable all the time, because human nature is volatile and is affected by many different factors of life that surround us.

It's true that globalisation has in some ways ensured that the world is more connected and that the dependencies of people's well being are more visible in some aspects, but it also created a new environment and provided new ways to the powerful and over-ambitious to still seek their way of dominance. The fact that the world has never been so big in human history provides so much more opportunities for those ready and able to take them, for good or bad. I have always been fascinated about the conflicting theories about the "state of nature" from Thomas Hobbes and John Locke. Even before starting my university studies, my mind was questioning stuff that they cover in their work so when I was reading extracts from their books, it was a bit mind-boggling to see that I wasn't wrong or too much off the mark in trying to figure out why human nature is so polarising (or is it polariZing, I get confused with American and English use of "s" and "z" sometimes :lol:)
An "ideal" way of governance does not exist due to the heterogeneity incumbent in the population that is governed. The most realistic approximation to a universally "agreed" governance might be based on long term directions directly voted on by the populace and executed by non-partial, experienced and competent people. (Not by some incompetent politician.) Every short term decision should be based on long term effects, not what political direction the people in charge have. Situational dependent governance within some guidelines set by the populace, thus being flexible enough to avoid extreme environments like pure capitalism/communism tends (USA/Venezuela) to create.

Unstable systems (the world) can only be controlled (governed) by either a perfect regulator (framework of laws), which does not exist or by a flexible and adapting regulator (situational management/leadership).

English --> S
American English --> Z

The fundaments behind modern political and societal governance are not something I know much about. The only things I can say is that their separate views on "state of nature" in their selves are flawed. Combining the ideas that humankind are ruled by reason and desire would make for a far better fundament for further discussions.
 

DoomSlayer

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An "ideal" way of governance does not exist due to the heterogeneity incumbent in the population that is governed. The most realistic approximation to a universally "agreed" governance might be based on long term directions directly voted on by the populace and executed by non-partial, experienced and competent people. (Not by some incompetent politician.) Every short term decision should be based on long term effects, not what political direction the people in charge have. Situational dependent governance within some guidelines set by the populace, thus being flexible enough to avoid extreme environments like pure capitalism/communism tends (USA/Venezuela) to create.

Unstable systems (the world) can only be controlled (governed) by either a perfect regulator (framework of laws), which does not exist or by a flexible and adapting regulator (situational management/leadership).

English --> S
American English --> Z

The fundaments behind modern political and societal governance are not something I know much about. The only things I can say is that their separate views on "state of nature" in their selves are flawed. Combining the ideas that humankind are ruled by reason and desire would make for a far better fundament for further discussions.
Props to you, man, so far we have been on the same page on almost everything, which tells me you are a very level-headed person. It was nice conversing in a civil and well-mannered way, which happens rarely when there is some sort of disagreement initially. :lol:
 

Fosu-Mens

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Props to you, man, so far we have been on the same page on almost everything, which tells me you are a very level-headed person. It was nice conversing in a civil and well-mannered way, which happens rarely when there is some sort of disagreement initially. :lol:
Unless we are both on the fringe. A stopped clock is correct twice a day you know.
I would say the same back to you. Good to converse with a person that one can assume inhabits common sense and objectivity and 1. hand knowledge from a region not presented without a filter in the news.
 

nickm

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You need communication and consensus to deal with climate change properly. The fact is that again financial interests will always prevent a proper discussion between the big countries, literally everyone has a stake in it, whether its pro or anti certain solutions, it always comes down to money and resources.

Russia publicly has stated it wants dialogue with the US, EU and NATO. But they want it to be on equal terms, not as some master against it's vassal. You mentioned historical circumstances, I'm sure you are well aware of the Russian heritage and mentality, they won't back down at no cost and the isolation that they were put in by the West since 2008 has shown that perfectly well. And I'm not picking sides by saying this, I'm just stating the truth and the reality of what is happening.
Ok... the principal reason anyone cares about Russia is it has gas and it has nukes. Aside from that, they have an economy approx the size of Italy. As a geopolitical player Russia is an irritant to the great powers, a threat to small powers on its border (including Europe) and an irrelevance in the great games of capital and influence shaping the world in SE Asia and the Pacific. (Temporary issues with Trump notwithstanding).
 
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Redplane

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Ok... the principal reason anyone cares about Russia is it has gas and it has nukes. Aside from that, they have an economy approx the size of Italy. As a geopolitical player Russia is an irritant to the great powers, a threat to small powers on its border (including Europe) and an irrelevance in the great games of capital and influence shaping the world in SE Asia and the Pacific. (Temporary issues with Trump notwithstanding).
Ive always wondered to what extent the size of the economy of Russia being so small really is any indication of its sphere of influence - especially as so much of how it runs its "business" seems to happen through the use of dark or dirty money that is not reflected in economic numbers.
 

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Ok... the principal reason anyone cares about Russia is it has gas and it has nukes. Aside from that, they have an economy approx the size of Italy. As a geopolitical player Russia is an irritant to the great powers, a threat to small powers on its border (including Europe) and an irrelevance in the great games of capital and influence shaping the world in SE Asia and the Pacific. (Temporary issues with Trump notwithstanding).
Thanks for your input, mate, I'll certainly take your simplistic view in account. :)
 

Nucks

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Ok... the principal reason anyone cares about Russia is it has gas and it has nukes. Aside from that, they have an economy approx the size of Italy. As a geopolitical player Russia is an irritant to the great powers, a threat to small powers on its border (including Europe) and an irrelevance in the great games of capital and influence shaping the world in SE Asia and the Pacific. (Temporary issues with Trump notwithstanding).
As a geopolitical player, Russia is a great power. Its economy is not indicative of its actual might. However you want to frame this, Russia is literally the third most influential country, in the world, for two reasons. It has enough nuclear weapons to end the world, by itself, multiple times over, and it inherited the bulk of the military goods of the USSR, and the military traditions of said Empire.

The "Russia has a laughable economy" argument to dismiss Russia as a global power, is pure silliness. So long as Russia has thousands of nuclear weapons, tens of thousands of tanks, a sizable airforce, and modernization projects, Russia has influence and reach far beyond what its economy might otherwise suggest. There is also the issue of efficiency. If we just compare defense budgets between Russia, and say the USA, the gap is actually much smaller in terms of actual acquisition and development of weapons than those budgets might suggest on a raw dollar to dollar comparison.

Russia doesn't have to invest a major chunk of its defense budget on maintaining hundreds of overseas military bases. Russia has a leaner military in general. Russias defense industry is also far leaner than the US defense industry. US defense industry prices are incredibly inflated compared to, in this example, Russia. Take for example the S400 vs the Patriot/Thaad system. S400 on paper is a better system, and it's far far far cheaper. Turkey opted for S400 over Patriot/Thaad.

Lastly, even when the USSR was a superpower, it wasn't all that invested in "shaping the world" in SE Asia, or the Pacific. It was concerned primarily with its borders. This is why the Soviets never really cared to develop a real blue water navy. Their goal wasn't to project their power half way around the world. It was to project their power in a sphere immediately around their borders so WW2 never happened to them again.

That's sort of a big problem when it comes to looking at say China, or Russia. People tend to view Russia and China in terms of their own western perspective. The western perspective for 600 years has been global hegemony and overseas imperialism. The Russian and Chinese perspective, since time immemorial, has been a far more localized version of imperialism. We view their ambitions, through our ambitions and experience, and that, tends to give a skewed perspective on what they are actually up to, and interested in.
 

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As a geopolitical player, Russia is a great power. Its economy is not indicative of its actual might. However you want to frame this, Russia is literally the third most influential country, in the world, for two reasons. It has enough nuclear weapons to end the world, by itself, multiple times over, and it inherited the bulk of the military goods of the USSR, and the military traditions of said Empire.

The "Russia has a laughable economy" argument to dismiss Russia as a global power, is pure silliness. So long as Russia has thousands of nuclear weapons, tens of thousands of tanks, a sizable airforce, and modernization projects, Russia has influence and reach far beyond what its economy might otherwise suggest. There is also the issue of efficiency. If we just compare defense budgets between Russia, and say the USA, the gap is actually much smaller in terms of actual acquisition and development of weapons than those budgets might suggest on a raw dollar to dollar comparison.

Russia doesn't have to invest a major chunk of its defense budget on maintaining hundreds of overseas military bases. Russia has a leaner military in general. Russias defense industry is also far leaner than the US defense industry. US defense industry prices are incredibly inflated compared to, in this example, Russia. Take for example the S400 vs the Patriot/Thaad system. S400 on paper is a better system, and it's far far far cheaper. Turkey opted for S400 over Patriot/Thaad.

Lastly, even when the USSR was a superpower, it wasn't all that invested in "shaping the world" in SE Asia, or the Pacific. It was concerned primarily with its borders. This is why the Soviets never really cared to develop a real blue water navy. Their goal wasn't to project their power half way around the world. It was to project their power in a sphere immediately around their borders so WW2 never happened to them again.

That's sort of a big problem when it comes to looking at say China, or Russia. People tend to view Russia and China in terms of their own western perspective. The western perspective for 600 years has been global hegemony and overseas imperialism. The Russian and Chinese perspective, since time immemorial, has been a far more localized version of imperialism. We view their ambitions, through our ambitions and experience, and that, tends to give a skewed perspective on what they are actually up to, and interested in.
It tried very hard and at great cost to shape the world but it failed and was defeated by the USA and the west. The idea that Russia wasn't heavily engaged in Africa for example is a denial of fact and what of Korea and Vietnam for example?

Its place as a power stands with the shear size of it. Its a blown super power though and China is squeezing its remaining influence and is probably unstoppable in overshadowing it.
 

DoomSlayer

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As a geopolitical player, Russia is a great power. Its economy is not indicative of its actual might. However you want to frame this, Russia is literally the third most influential country, in the world, for two reasons. It has enough nuclear weapons to end the world, by itself, multiple times over, and it inherited the bulk of the military goods of the USSR, and the military traditions of said Empire.

The "Russia has a laughable economy" argument to dismiss Russia as a global power, is pure silliness. So long as Russia has thousands of nuclear weapons, tens of thousands of tanks, a sizable airforce, and modernization projects, Russia has influence and reach far beyond what its economy might otherwise suggest. There is also the issue of efficiency. If we just compare defense budgets between Russia, and say the USA, the gap is actually much smaller in terms of actual acquisition and development of weapons than those budgets might suggest on a raw dollar to dollar comparison.

Russia doesn't have to invest a major chunk of its defense budget on maintaining hundreds of overseas military bases. Russia has a leaner military in general. Russias defense industry is also far leaner than the US defense industry. US defense industry prices are incredibly inflated compared to, in this example, Russia. Take for example the S400 vs the Patriot/Thaad system. S400 on paper is a better system, and it's far far far cheaper. Turkey opted for S400 over Patriot/Thaad.

Lastly, even when the USSR was a superpower, it wasn't all that invested in "shaping the world" in SE Asia, or the Pacific. It was concerned primarily with its borders. This is why the Soviets never really cared to develop a real blue water navy. Their goal wasn't to project their power half way around the world. It was to project their power in a sphere immediately around their borders so WW2 never happened to them again.

That's sort of a big problem when it comes to looking at say China, or Russia. People tend to view Russia and China in terms of their own western perspective. The western perspective for 600 years has been global hegemony and overseas imperialism. The Russian and Chinese perspective, since time immemorial, has been a far more localized version of imperialism. We view their ambitions, through our ambitions and experience, and that, tends to give a skewed perspective on what they are actually up to, and interested in.
That's a great take on the whole topic. The geopolitical aspects you mentioned are very interesting, because there is a very specific theory that Russia follow, which explains why they focus on their own influence in regions that are closer to their borders.

Another thing that is missed when talking about the financial and economical power is the fact that the West and mostly the US have most of the leverage as they created the current globalised system, thus Russia has to operate outside of the box, so to speak. I think the main difference in that aspect is in Russia, the oligarchs and organised crime are a lot more dependant from the government, whereas in the USA, the government depends a lot on the corporations, who have their lobbyists to do the job for them and earn them more power, money and resources. That's why, for example you get less efficient spending of the budget on the weapon manufacturing industry, as you mentioned it.

The other poster mentioned China but it's very easy to forget that Russia and China don't have the best history between each other either. Ideally, Russia wants to work with the West against the Chinese expansion, because it hurts their local geopolitical interests in the region, which are incredibly vital to them. The fact is USA and the West pushed Russia into working with China due to their effort to isolate the Russians from the globalised economy and trade. This helped China the most, as now we can see how fast they are becoming a leading super-power that the rest of the world needs to comply or conform to in a lot of ways, if those are the right words to use.
 

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I kinda get what you're saying, but it's pretty hard to accept the use of benevolent, even in quotation marks. Sure, he didn't kill tens of thousands, but the secret police was pretty brutal, people lived in fear of it, and many were imprisoned and killed for political reasons and many more died as direct results of colonial policies of the fascist regime.

And although he is sometimes praised for keeping finances in order, there is now a consensus that those policies are a direct cause of most of our economical problems nowadays, he basically kept Portugal in an agricultural system when the rest of Europe was developing, he kept the universities an elite institution where the normal person had no chance of getting in. So he pretty much kept us still in time for 40 years.

Sorry for the off topic.
 

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Hah. All the USSR cared about was protecting its borders and making sure WW2 didn't happen to it again? What a load of revisionist tosh.
 

Raoul

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Ok... the principal reason anyone cares about Russia is it has gas and it has nukes. Aside from that, they have an economy approx the size of Italy. As a geopolitical player Russia is an irritant to the great powers, a threat to small powers on its border (including Europe) and an irrelevance in the great games of capital and influence shaping the world in SE Asia and the Pacific. (Temporary issues with Trump notwithstanding).
Good post. 100% spot on.
 

nickm

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As a geopolitical player, Russia is a great power. Its economy is not indicative of its actual might. However you want to frame this, Russia is literally the third most influential country, in the world, for two reasons. It has enough nuclear weapons to end the world, by itself, multiple times over, and it inherited the bulk of the military goods of the USSR, and the military traditions of said Empire.

The "Russia has a laughable economy" argument to dismiss Russia as a global power, is pure silliness. So long as Russia has thousands of nuclear weapons, tens of thousands of tanks, a sizable airforce, and modernization projects, Russia has influence and reach far beyond what its economy might otherwise suggest. There is also the issue of efficiency. If we just compare defense budgets between Russia, and say the USA, the gap is actually much smaller in terms of actual acquisition and development of weapons than those budgets might suggest on a raw dollar to dollar comparison.

Russia doesn't have to invest a major chunk of its defense budget on maintaining hundreds of overseas military bases. Russia has a leaner military in general. Russias defense industry is also far leaner than the US defense industry. US defense industry prices are incredibly inflated compared to, in this example, Russia. Take for example the S400 vs the Patriot/Thaad system. S400 on paper is a better system, and it's far far far cheaper. Turkey opted for S400 over Patriot/Thaad.

Lastly, even when the USSR was a superpower, it wasn't all that invested in "shaping the world" in SE Asia, or the Pacific. It was concerned primarily with its borders. This is why the Soviets never really cared to develop a real blue water navy. Their goal wasn't to project their power half way around the world. It was to project their power in a sphere immediately around their borders so WW2 never happened to them again.

That's sort of a big problem when it comes to looking at say China, or Russia. People tend to view Russia and China in terms of their own western perspective. The western perspective for 600 years has been global hegemony and overseas imperialism. The Russian and Chinese perspective, since time immemorial, has been a far more localized version of imperialism. We view their ambitions, through our ambitions and experience, and that, tends to give a skewed perspective on what they are actually up to, and interested in.
I said Russia was an influential power. But it's not a great power. A great power is able to materially assert its influence on a global (not just regional) scale - economic impact, force projection, cultural influence. A great power's reaction is always considered when another power decides to make a move (the spread of countries making that calculation being a measure of how great a power). You have just reeled off a bunch of the things Russia lacks - true bluewater navy capable of sustained global power projection, network of military bases, global economic reach, ability to set the agenda in the most important parts of the world - that would make it a great power, if it had them (and is what China, a great power, albeit not yet a superpower is busily doubling down on).

Also, it doesn't matter what the "western imperialist perspective" is on Russia or China. The perspective that matters, surely, is Estonia's, Lithuania's, Finland's, Ukraine's, Georgia's, Taiwan's, Tibet's, Hong Kong's, and all the small countries with competing claims to the South China Sea....
 
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Nucks

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It tried very hard and at great cost to shape the world but it failed and was defeated by the USA and the west. The idea that Russia wasn't heavily engaged in Africa for example is a denial of fact and what of Korea and Vietnam for example?

Its place as a power stands with the shear size of it. Its a blown super power though and China is squeezing its remaining influence and is probably unstoppable in overshadowing it.
Soviet involvement in Korea and Vietnam was reactionary. History lesson time. At the end of WW2, The US, Britain, and the USSR essentially agreed to not get involved in internal uprisings in Europe. In essence, the West and the Soviets would "let the chips fall where they may". This lasted all of 2 seconds, when the British and US intervened in subduing the Greek communist uprising, and then imposing a pro-Western government in the Western part of Germany, as well as Austria. This was one of the chief reasons why the Iron Curtain was dropped. The Soviets initially allowed all of their "satellites" to have non-communist governments, so long as the communists had a seat at the table, admittedly a dominant seat. It isn't until 1947 that you see the Soviet reaction. Potsdam was being violated. The agreements Stalin had with FDR were thrown out by Truman, as Truman took a hard anti-Soviet stance. The Soviets reacted to the intervention in Greece, and the imposition of pro-Western governments in the Western Occupied areas, by imposing pro-Soviet governments in the Soviet occupied areas.

Regarding Africa? Again, reactionary. I'm actually unaware of any countries in Africa where the USSR took the lead in getting up to trouble. For example, they became involved in Angola, AFTER South Africa, became involved. Moreover, the Soviets put the brakes on Cuba who was eager as all heck to actually militarily intervene in Angola. The Soviet aim was to simply contain the South Africans in the South African effort to intervene against the communists.

Unless of course you're of the belief that every single communist/socialist uprising around the world was the work of the Soviet Union. Which would be factually incorrect. Perhaps if Stalin didn't literally murder internationalism with an ice pick in Mexico City, there might be a case to be made for the Communist Internationalist Movement guided by Moscow. Except, Stalin killed internationalism. He barely helped the Red Chinese, and that was one of the root causes of DECADES of animosity between the Soviet Union and China. The Soviets BARELY intervened in Korea, giving some old T-34 tanks, and selling/giving weapons. The Chinese were the hard carry in Korea. Likewise in Vietnam. Soviets had nothing to do with North Vietnam trying to unify the country, and became involved as a passive external actor (supplying weapons) after the French/US were fighting the VM->VC and the North.

Was the Soviet Union active around the world? Yep. They "intervened" in a largely indirect, non-confrontational manner, in areas where they saw "Imperialist" powers acting. This was largely opportunism, wherever the US intervened, the Soviets would arm the Socialists/Communists present in said country that the US was acting against.

I'd be very interested to see you provide a list of countries the USSR agitated in, that the US, or a US ally wasn't already involved. It's going to be a pretty short list :)

My thoughts exactly. It was committed to a global socialist revolution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_International

The Communist International, was the exportation of Lenin's "vanguard communism" around the world. That was from 1919, until Lenin died. Practically, Internationalism died when Lenin died. Trotsky was Lenin's internationalist acolyte. When Stalin had Trotsky murdered with an ice pick in Mexico City in 1940, that was the de-facto end of any hope of Internationalism. From that point on, the concept of the Communist International, spearheaded by the Soviet Union was dead.

Stalin himself, you could make a strong argument that he wasn't even a true believer of Communism, rather he was a power hungry Nationalist, who saw Communism as an opportunity and a means to a Nationalistic end. Stalin, very clearly, did not believe in internationalism. In 1943, he formally dissolved the Communist International. Moreover, he is on record as saying that he did not believe that Communism made sense for any other country. He believed it was applicable uniquely to the USSR.

The fact you don't seem to know any of this, or are ignoring it, makes me tend to believe you really don't know what you're talking about, and have no actual education on this subject beyond Cold War era propaganda. If the USSR wanted to effect a global socialist revolution, they would have directly intervened in Greece. Nobody could have stopped them. They would have directly intervened in Korea. They would have imposed Unitary communist governments on ALL of the occupied countries at the end of WW2, immediately, and not waited 2 years to do it, in response to pro-western governments being established in the Western areas of occupation. You can say what you believe they intended, and you can actually look at what they did to suss out their actual intentions. So far it isn't looking very good for "global socialist revolution" in the post Lenin era.

Militarily, they would have pursued a far different army, and naval doctrine in terms of weapon procurement and development to pursue this "global socialist revolution". The fact that the Soviets did not pursue anything but a token blue water navy, designed specifically to to supplement their brown water navy. Their navy was entirely defensive in nature, and the decision in the late 1970's to invest into aircraft carriers was contrary to their post WW2 outlook on what their navy was, what it was for, and what it meant for their foreign policy.

The simple fact is, the Soviet Union post WW2, had plenty of opportunity to actually intervene in plenty of areas, in a non-passive way, to instigate. They didn't. I alluded to Greece. Had the USSR been actually bent on a global revolution, nothing could have stopped them from ensuring Greece fell to communism. Likewise in Korea. Had they been invested in this "global" revolution, they could have just swept down with the North and settled the entire issue in a matter of weeks. When the USSR was in its absolute strongest position regarding realized military power, it didn't intervene.

So please, give me some actual concrete examples of the USSR pushing this global socialist agenda post WW2? Make sure these are incidents that are not reactionary.

I'll also remind you, that the USSR categorically refused to become military involved in plenty of civil wars involving communists, and it was this refusal to engage, that in large part led to DECADES of animosity between, for example, China and the USSR. It's funny, you'd think that the USSR would be chomping at the bit to ensure a country like China with a non-insignificant % of the global population, flipped communist. I mean, as part of their "global socialist revolution", yet, their aid was minuscule.

The facts really don't support your position I'm afraid. Stalin killed internationalism, literally. Soviets practiced non-intervention in plenty of conflicts, taking a passive reactionary role. Their military was designed entirely around defense and localized power projection, eschewing a major blue water navy, which is foundational to projecting power around the globe.
 
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Don't Kill Bill

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Soviet involvement in Korea and Vietnam was reactionary. History lesson time. At the end of WW2, The US, Britain, and the USSR essentially agreed to not get involved in internal uprisings in Europe. In essence, the West and the Soviets would "let the chips fall where they may". This lasted all of 2 seconds, when the British and US intervened in subduing the Greek communist uprising, and then imposing a pro-Western government in the Western part of Germany, as well as Austria. This was one of the chief reasons why the Iron Curtain was dropped. The Soviets initially allowed all of their "satellites" to have non-communist governments, so long as the communists had a seat at the table, admittedly a dominant seat. It isn't until 1947 that you see the Soviet reaction. Potsdam was being violated. The agreements Stalin had with FDR were thrown out by Truman, as Truman took a hard anti-Soviet stance. The Soviets reacted to the intervention in Greece, and the imposition of pro-Western governments in the Western Occupied areas, by imposing pro-Soviet governments in the Soviet occupied areas.

Regarding Africa? Again, reactionary. I'm actually unaware of any countries in Africa where the USSR took the lead in getting up to trouble. For example, they became involved in Angola, AFTER South Africa, became involved. Moreover, the Soviets put the brakes on Cuba who was eager as all heck to actually militarily intervene in Angola. The Soviet aim was to simply contain the South Africans in the South African effort to intervene against the communists.

Unless of course you're of the belief that every single communist/socialist uprising around the world was the work of the Soviet Union. Which would be factually incorrect. Perhaps if Stalin didn't literally murder internationalism with an ice pick in Mexico City, there might be a case to be made for the Communist Internationalist Movement guided by Moscow. Except, Stalin killed internationalism. He barely helped the Red Chinese, and that was one of the root causes of DECADES of animosity between the Soviet Union and China. The Soviets BARELY intervened in Korea, giving some old T-34 tanks, and selling/giving weapons. The Chinese were the hard carry in Korea. Likewise in Vietnam. Soviets had nothing to do with North Vietnam trying to unify the country, and became involved as a passive external actor (supplying weapons) after the French/US were fighting the VM->VC and the North.

Was the Soviet Union active around the world? Yep. They "intervened" in a largely indirect, non-confrontational manner, in areas where they saw "Imperialist" powers acting. This was largely opportunism, wherever the US intervened, the Soviets would arm the Socialists/Communists present in said country that the US was acting against.

I'd be very interested to see you provide a list of countries the USSR agitated in, that the US, or a US ally wasn't already involved. It's going to be a pretty short list :)



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_International

The Communist International, was the exportation of Lenin's "vanguard communism" around the world. That was from 1919, until Lenin died. Practically, Internationalism died when Lenin died. Trotsky was Lenin's internationalist acolyte. When Stalin had Trotsky murdered with an ice pick in Mexico City in 1940, that was the de-facto end of any hope of Internationalism. From that point on, the concept of the Communist International, spearheaded by the Soviet Union was dead.

Stalin himself, you could make a strong argument that he wasn't even a true believer of Communism, rather he was a power hungry Nationalist, who saw Communism as an opportunity and a means to a Nationalistic end. Stalin, very clearly, did not believe in internationalism. In 1943, he formally dissolved the Communist International. Moreover, he is on record as saying that he did not believe that Communism made sense for any other country. He believed it was applicable uniquely to the USSR.

The fact you don't seem to know any of this, or are ignoring it, makes me tend to believe you really don't know what you're talking about, and have no actual education on this subject beyond Cold War era propaganda. If the USSR wanted to effect a global socialist revolution, they would have directly intervened in Greece. Nobody could have stopped them. They would have directly intervened in Korea. They would have imposed Unitary communist governments on ALL of the occupied countries at the end of WW2, immediately, and not waited 2 years to do it, in response to pro-western governments being established in the Western areas of occupation. You can say what you believe they intended, and you can actually look at what they did to suss out their actual intentions. So far it isn't looking very good for "global socialist revolution" in the post Lenin era.

Militarily, they would have pursued a far different army, and naval doctrine in terms of weapon procurement and development to pursue this "global socialist revolution". The fact that the Soviets did not pursue anything but a token blue water navy, designed specifically to to supplement their brown water navy. Their navy was entirely defensive in nature, and the decision in the late 1970's to invest into aircraft carriers was contrary to their post WW2 outlook on what their navy was, what it was for, and what it meant for their foreign policy.

The simple fact is, the Soviet Union post WW2, had plenty of opportunity to actually intervene in plenty of areas, in a non-passive way, to instigate. They didn't. I alluded to Greece. Had the USSR been actually bent on a global revolution, nothing could have stopped them from ensuring Greece fell to communism. Likewise in Korea. Had they been invested in this "global" revolution, they could have just swept down with the North and settled the entire issue in a matter of weeks. When the USSR was in its absolute strongest position regarding realized military power, it didn't intervene.

So please, give me some actual concrete examples of the USSR pushing this global socialist agenda post WW2? Make sure these are incidents that are not reactionary.

I'll also remind you, that the USSR categorically refused to become military involved in plenty of civil wars involving communists, and it was this refusal to engage, that in large part led to DECADES of animosity between, for example, China and the USSR. It's funny, you'd think that the USSR would be chomping at the bit to ensure a country like China with a non-insignificant % of the global population, flipped communist. I mean, as part of their "global socialist revolution", yet, their aid was minuscule.

The facts really don't support your position I'm afraid. Stalin killed internationalism, literally. Soviets practiced non-intervention in plenty of conflicts, taking a passive reactionary role. Their military was designed entirely around defense and localized power projection, eschewing a major blue water navy, which is foundational to projecting power around the globe.
In Korea, Stalin didn't want Russian American direct conflict as that would escalate into WW3 and nuclear war. Kim and Mao and Stalin agreed the levels of support they needed and would give for the invasion of South Korea by the North. The soviets denied any involvement in the Korean war but that was a flat out lie. Soviet pilots comprised a large fraction and the most effective part of North Korea's air force which included the latest soviet jets and equipment.

Whatever Stalin thought about international communism the people trained and used abroad certainly thought it important in fact they lived and died for it and it was used in propaganda as the ideal the masses could be woken up to by a good communist education. They really believed in it and assumed that the whole of Eastern Europe and later Western Europe would become communist by choice. The early elections in Eastern Europe were allowed on that basis but it became clear Soviet will would have to be imposed. Stalin's intervention in the Greek civil war would have broken his agreement with Churchill which at the time he didn't want to do. Also of course the US had the atom bomb USSR did not.
 

Handré1990

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Soviet involvement in Korea and Vietnam was reactionary. History lesson time. At the end of WW2, The US, Britain, and the USSR essentially agreed to not get involved in internal uprisings in Europe. In essence, the West and the Soviets would "let the chips fall where they may". This lasted all of 2 seconds, when the British and US intervened in subduing the Greek communist uprising, and then imposing a pro-Western government in the Western part of Germany, as well as Austria. This was one of the chief reasons why the Iron Curtain was dropped. The Soviets initially allowed all of their "satellites" to have non-communist governments, so long as the communists had a seat at the table, admittedly a dominant seat. It isn't until 1947 that you see the Soviet reaction. Potsdam was being violated. The agreements Stalin had with FDR were thrown out by Truman, as Truman took a hard anti-Soviet stance. The Soviets reacted to the intervention in Greece, and the imposition of pro-Western governments in the Western Occupied areas, by imposing pro-Soviet governments in the Soviet occupied areas.

Regarding Africa? Again, reactionary. I'm actually unaware of any countries in Africa where the USSR took the lead in getting up to trouble. For example, they became involved in Angola, AFTER South Africa, became involved. Moreover, the Soviets put the brakes on Cuba who was eager as all heck to actually militarily intervene in Angola. The Soviet aim was to simply contain the South Africans in the South African effort to intervene against the communists.

Unless of course you're of the belief that every single communist/socialist uprising around the world was the work of the Soviet Union. Which would be factually incorrect. Perhaps if Stalin didn't literally murder internationalism with an ice pick in Mexico City, there might be a case to be made for the Communist Internationalist Movement guided by Moscow. Except, Stalin killed internationalism. He barely helped the Red Chinese, and that was one of the root causes of DECADES of animosity between the Soviet Union and China. The Soviets BARELY intervened in Korea, giving some old T-34 tanks, and selling/giving weapons. The Chinese were the hard carry in Korea. Likewise in Vietnam. Soviets had nothing to do with North Vietnam trying to unify the country, and became involved as a passive external actor (supplying weapons) after the French/US were fighting the VM->VC and the North.

Was the Soviet Union active around the world? Yep. They "intervened" in a largely indirect, non-confrontational manner, in areas where they saw "Imperialist" powers acting. This was largely opportunism, wherever the US intervened, the Soviets would arm the Socialists/Communists present in said country that the US was acting against.

I'd be very interested to see you provide a list of countries the USSR agitated in, that the US, or a US ally wasn't already involved. It's going to be a pretty short list :)



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_International

The Communist International, was the exportation of Lenin's "vanguard communism" around the world. That was from 1919, until Lenin died. Practically, Internationalism died when Lenin died. Trotsky was Lenin's internationalist acolyte. When Stalin had Trotsky murdered with an ice pick in Mexico City in 1940, that was the de-facto end of any hope of Internationalism. From that point on, the concept of the Communist International, spearheaded by the Soviet Union was dead.

Stalin himself, you could make a strong argument that he wasn't even a true believer of Communism, rather he was a power hungry Nationalist, who saw Communism as an opportunity and a means to a Nationalistic end. Stalin, very clearly, did not believe in internationalism. In 1943, he formally dissolved the Communist International. Moreover, he is on record as saying that he did not believe that Communism made sense for any other country. He believed it was applicable uniquely to the USSR.

The fact you don't seem to know any of this, or are ignoring it, makes me tend to believe you really don't know what you're talking about, and have no actual education on this subject beyond Cold War era propaganda. If the USSR wanted to effect a global socialist revolution, they would have directly intervened in Greece. Nobody could have stopped them. They would have directly intervened in Korea. They would have imposed Unitary communist governments on ALL of the occupied countries at the end of WW2, immediately, and not waited 2 years to do it, in response to pro-western governments being established in the Western areas of occupation. You can say what you believe they intended, and you can actually look at what they did to suss out their actual intentions. So far it isn't looking very good for "global socialist revolution" in the post Lenin era.

Militarily, they would have pursued a far different army, and naval doctrine in terms of weapon procurement and development to pursue this "global socialist revolution". The fact that the Soviets did not pursue anything but a token blue water navy, designed specifically to to supplement their brown water navy. Their navy was entirely defensive in nature, and the decision in the late 1970's to invest into aircraft carriers was contrary to their post WW2 outlook on what their navy was, what it was for, and what it meant for their foreign policy.

The simple fact is, the Soviet Union post WW2, had plenty of opportunity to actually intervene in plenty of areas, in a non-passive way, to instigate. They didn't. I alluded to Greece. Had the USSR been actually bent on a global revolution, nothing could have stopped them from ensuring Greece fell to communism. Likewise in Korea. Had they been invested in this "global" revolution, they could have just swept down with the North and settled the entire issue in a matter of weeks. When the USSR was in its absolute strongest position regarding realized military power, it didn't intervene.

So please, give me some actual concrete examples of the USSR pushing this global socialist agenda post WW2? Make sure these are incidents that are not reactionary.

I'll also remind you, that the USSR categorically refused to become military involved in plenty of civil wars involving communists, and it was this refusal to engage, that in large part led to DECADES of animosity between, for example, China and the USSR. It's funny, you'd think that the USSR would be chomping at the bit to ensure a country like China with a non-insignificant % of the global population, flipped communist. I mean, as part of their "global socialist revolution", yet, their aid was minuscule.

The facts really don't support your position I'm afraid. Stalin killed internationalism, literally. Soviets practiced non-intervention in plenty of conflicts, taking a passive reactionary role. Their military was designed entirely around defense and localized power projection, eschewing a major blue water navy, which is foundational to projecting power around the globe.
A lot of detail without coming close to a correct conclusion. Presumably someone with such detailed knowledge have heard of the Long Telegram?

It was funny though, only concerned with protecting its borders! Good one!
 

Raulduke

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Putin recommending term limits for future presidents earlier then this.



Sounds quite dramatic but is it essentially just a reshuffle?
 

Adisa

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Putin recommending term limits for future presidents earlier then this.



Sounds quite dramatic but is it essentially just a reshuffle?
He wants to change the constitution.
 

Wednesday at Stoke

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At this point his last trick is to disappear with all his wealth intact and immune from future prosecution in Russia or elsewhere, interesting to see what he comes up with.
 

Nucks

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In Korea, Stalin didn't want Russian American direct conflict as that would escalate into WW3 and nuclear war. Kim and Mao and Stalin agreed the levels of support they needed and would give for the invasion of South Korea by the North. The soviets denied any involvement in the Korean war but that was a flat out lie. Soviet pilots comprised a large fraction and the most effective part of North Korea's air force which included the latest soviet jets and equipment.

Whatever Stalin thought about international communism the people trained and used abroad certainly thought it important in fact they lived and died for it and it was used in propaganda as the ideal the masses could be woken up to by a good communist education. They really believed in it and assumed that the whole of Eastern Europe and later Western Europe would become communist by choice. The early elections in Eastern Europe were allowed on that basis but it became clear Soviet will would have to be imposed. Stalin's intervention in the Greek civil war would have broken his agreement with Churchill which at the time he didn't want to do. Also of course the US had the atom bomb USSR did not.
Whether it was a pragmatic decision or not is irrelevant. What matters is the outcome. Stalin pivoted away from internationalism in the 20's and 30's, and formalized this position in the 40's. The USSR not pressing their advantages at the end of WW2, whether it was because of lack of interest, or wanting the money Roosevelt promised for reconstruction, again, is irrelevant. They didn't press their advantages, and when they DID, they did it primarily for two reasons. Roosevelt had died, and Truman was reneging on all of Roosevelt's agreements, and, the west had imposed a pro-western government in West Germany, and had intervened in Greece.

A lot of detail without coming close to a correct conclusion. Presumably someone with such detailed knowledge have heard of the Long Telegram?

It was funny though, only concerned with protecting its borders! Good one!
The Long Telegram, ahh, yes, what an insightful document. Imagine if Iran formulated a foreign policy and domestic policy around the idea that they were in an undeclared war with the United States that the US incited or initiated, and then the United States used that doctrine as evidence that they were adversarial!

Reminds me of a song by a band called the White Stripes. Effect and Cause. Favorite lyric. "You're like a little girl yelling at her brother 'cause you lost his ball, yeah ". Now of course it's all more nuanced than that. Neither side is completely innocent, however, and this is factually irrefutable. The Soviet Union WAS sticking to the post war deals they made. Churchill in his biography said flat out, categorically, that they were. Truman is the one who backed out, and escalated tensions, effectively putting the two countries on the footing that would become the Cold War.

Remind you of anything? Iran abiding by nuclear deal. Trump pulls out. You can't take the effect, and make it the cause, son.
 

Don't Kill Bill

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Whether it was a pragmatic decision or not is irrelevant. What matters is the outcome. Stalin pivoted away from internationalism in the 20's and 30's, and formalized this position in the 40's. The USSR not pressing their advantages at the end of WW2, whether it was because of lack of interest, or wanting the money Roosevelt promised for reconstruction, again, is irrelevant. They didn't press their advantages, and when they DID, they did it primarily for two reasons. Roosevelt had died, and Truman was reneging on all of Roosevelt's agreements, and, the west had imposed a pro-western government in West Germany, and had intervened in Greece.

He attacked Finland in 39 and Russia was expelled from the league of nations because of it.

After the war he had to pause the expansion of communism militarily because of the threat from the US who were the only nuclear power at the time. As soon as he had a deterrent/ counter weapon he sanctioned and helped to plan the invasion of South Korea with Kim and Mao and used soviet weapons and personnel.

You may think the USSR was a purely defensive organisation I disagree.
 

Handré1990

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Whether it was a pragmatic decision or not is irrelevant. What matters is the outcome. Stalin pivoted away from internationalism in the 20's and 30's, and formalized this position in the 40's. The USSR not pressing their advantages at the end of WW2, whether it was because of lack of interest, or wanting the money Roosevelt promised for reconstruction, again, is irrelevant. They didn't press their advantages, and when they DID, they did it primarily for two reasons. Roosevelt had died, and Truman was reneging on all of Roosevelt's agreements, and, the west had imposed a pro-western government in West Germany, and had intervened in Greece.



The Long Telegram, ahh, yes, what an insightful document. Imagine if Iran formulated a foreign policy and domestic policy around the idea that they were in an undeclared war with the United States that the US incited or initiated, and then the United States used that doctrine as evidence that they were adversarial!

Reminds me of a song by a band called the White Stripes. Effect and Cause. Favorite lyric. "You're like a little girl yelling at her brother 'cause you lost his ball, yeah ". Now of course it's all more nuanced than that. Neither side is completely innocent, however, and this is factually irrefutable. The Soviet Union WAS sticking to the post war deals they made. Churchill in his biography said flat out, categorically, that they were. Truman is the one who backed out, and escalated tensions, effectively putting the two countries on the footing that would become the Cold War.

Remind you of anything? Iran abiding by nuclear deal. Trump pulls out. You can't take the effect, and make it the cause, son.
Is the point. Your perspective is just that, a perspective. As great as FDR was he completely failed to comprehend the actual situation in Europe after the war. The eastern block was dominated by the Soviet Union either through fear, or direct hard power means. None of the parties were innocent, but I know who I see as the better part there, and it isn’t the same as you apparently.

In your initial post you mentioned the Greek civil war as well, without having time to check at this moment I’m pretty sure Greece was decided to be a British sphere through the percentages deal agreed by Stalin himself, so no agreement was broken there.
 

Sir Matt

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Is the point. Your perspective is just that, a perspective. As great as FDR was he completely failed to comprehend the actual situation in Europe after the war. The eastern block was dominated by the Soviet Union either through fear, or direct hard power means. None of the parties were innocent, but I know who I see as the better part there, and it isn’t the same as you apparently.

In your initial post you mentioned the Greek civil war as well, without having time to check at this moment I’m pretty sure Greece was decided to be a British sphere through the percentages deal agreed by Stalin himself, so no agreement was broken there.
In his defense, he was dead before VE day.
 

Hanks

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Eh, do people actually read in details what it’s about or just copy paste grifters like Browder like parrots or a sensationalist title ??

the reform is about limiting powers of presidency, Not allowing any future presidents to serve more than 2 terms in life time (so not another PUTIN allowed), and expanding parliamentary powers to choose the PM instead of President....and from what I read and watched on Rossija24 , limit dual nationals from running for office... all to be put for national referendum for approval.

On paper at least, it appears to make the constitution more “democratic” and less prone to autocracy...on paper.

I think this was all agreed before hand between Medvedev and him, hence the quick acceptance of resignation and very fast appointment of new PM which by all accounts is a very random guy who didn’t even have English Wikipedia page until yesterday.

I thinI Putin endgame after 2024 is to become some sort of father of state figure like in Singapore or Kazakhstan (what Nazarbayev did) on some sort security council. These changes, if confirmed and approved will basically mean there won’t be another Putin.
 
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Pexbo

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Eh, do people actually read in details what it’s about or just copy paste grifters like Browder like parrots or a sensationalist title ??

the reform is about limiting powers of presidency, Not allowing any future presidents to serve more than 2 terms in life time (so not another PUTIN allowed), and expanding parliamentary powers to choose the PM instead of President....and from what I read and watched on Rossija24 , limit dual nationals orAnd all to be put for national referendum for approval.

On paper at least, it appears to make the constitution more “democratic” and less prone to autocracy...on paper.

I think this was all agreed before hand between Mercedes and him, hence the quick acceptance of resignation and very fast appointment of new PM which by all accounts is a very random guy who didn’t even have English Wikipedia page until yesterday.

I thinI PUTIN endgame after 2024 is to become some sort of father of state figure like in Singapore or Kazakhstan (what nazarbaydv did) on some sort security council. These changes, if confirmed and approved will basically mean there won’t be another Putin.
He's limiting the powers of the presidency because he's preparing to step down from the Presidency and allow someone else to take the role as per the constitution. He's moving all the powers of the presidency over to the Prime Minister in preparation for him taking over that role in 2024 when he steps down. He's not conceding any power, he's just changing job title.
 

Handré1990

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He's limiting the powers of the presidency because he's preparing to step down from the Presidency and allow someone else to take the role as per the constitution. He's moving all the powers of the presidency over to the Prime Minister in preparation for him taking over that role in 2024 when he steps down. He's not conceding any power, he's just changing job title.
What I was thinking as well :lol:
 

2cents

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He's limiting the powers of the presidency because he's preparing to step down from the Presidency and allow someone else to take the role as per the constitution. He's moving all the powers of the presidency over to the Prime Minister in preparation for him taking over that role in 2024 when he steps down. He's not conceding any power, he's just changing job title.
Didn’t he pretty much do that already a few years back, only with the roles reversed?