Saha is an ungrateful, disloyal bastard

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Sorry, but i'm not going to quit my job so i can spend 23 1/2 hours a day here, like you.

1) I'm a United supporter, so it's quite natural that I'm here.

2) I'm not here 23 1/2 hours a day - far from.

3) I run a very successful business despite being here.

4) I'm not desperate to log-on to a Liverpool website as soon as I get home from work

5) I don't try to convince myself that Liverpool isn't any good - I don't have to

 

[DJSpaz]

1) I'm a United supporter, so it's quite natural that I'm here and not at OT.

2) I'm not a very successful businessman so being here comforts me.

4) I'm desperate to try to convince myself that Liverpool isn't any good - but i cant.

8) I can't count - I don't have to

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Clever boy

 

[spinoza]

If we were all able to precisely pick the winners of each competition, we'd all be as rich as Abramovich.

It's called making a prediction, based on my opinion - am i not allowed to do that?

Only on Hyperpix

It's called backing your opinion up.

In my opinion you'd be shit at it.

 

[DJSpaz]

Only on Hyperpix

It's called backing your opinion up.

In my opinion you'd be shit at it.

We have a predictions game on Koptalk and i'm doing alright on that, as Cal knows, when he looks up the table.

 

[Kevrockcity]

BUT, they HAVE reached the final more than your good selves, so it's not unreasonable to say that they've PROVEN their ability to last in the competition better than you have.

I know you see my point, you're just being an awkward cnut.

well, if i remember correctly, you said that juventus have shown that they are better at winning the champions league than united, which is not true considering the amount of times united and juve have respective won. if you had said that juve are better than united at reaching finals that united, this would be a fair statement and supported by facts. but of course, this isn't what you said that got everyone criticizing you.

likewise, i wonder how accurate your statement is that juve have proven their ability to "last in the competition" longer than united. to determine this, one would have to either take the mean or average knock-out position of the two teams in question over a specific period of time (there seems to be some disagreement over what period this should be - last 5 years? 8 years? 10 years?).

how does one determine knock out position? either by assigning a numerical value to round of knock out (winner = 0, final = 1, semi-final = 2, etc...) or by taking the number of teams still playing in the league at the time of the knock out of the team in question (winner = 1, final = 2, semi-final = 4, etc...).

clearly, this is a tough task. is someone up for it?

 

[WeasteDevil]

clearly, this is a tough task. is someone up for it?

The UEFA points system basically does that. The further you go, the more poiints you get (with a few added extras here and there).

And as it is shown, over ten years we are only surpassed by Real Madrid using that "official" system.

 

[Kevrockcity]

The UEFA points system basically does that. The further you go, the more poiints you get (with a few added extras here and there).

And as it is shown, over ten years we are only surpassed by Real Madrid using that "official" system.

so the uefa points system essentially measures how far a club, on average, advances in europe? and that united, on average, has proven that it lasts longer than juventus? how can this be - djs said the opposite?. this would mean he's talking out of his ass.

impossible! there must be some error! does not compute!

 

[WeasteDevil]

so the uefa points system essentially measures how far a club, on average, advances in europe? and that united, on average, has proven that it lasts longer than juventus? how can this be - djs said the opposite?. this would mean he's talking out of his ass.

impossible! there must be some error! does not compute!

Yes, if you look at the figures of each year in the link I posted, you will see that last year we were joint 3rd in the list of points gained, and in other years we are better, in others worse depending on our performance in that year.

DJS is basically saying that Juve get to more finals that we do, totally ignoring the fact that in a year we had no trouble getting to the Quarter Final, Juve failed to qualify for the first round, they got knocked out in the preliminaries, the very preliminaries we had to go through when we won the cup in 98/99.

Now, if you take the number of points each club scored each year over a ten year period and add them all together, we come second to Real Madrid. Baically the list I gave and the last list Suedesi gave.

 

[WeasteDevil]

DJS does support Liverpool don't forget, so he isn't entirely objective on this!

 

[Kevrockcity]

Yes, if you look at the figures of each year in the link I posted, you will see that last year we were joint 3rd in the list of points gained, and in other years we are better, in others worse depending on our performance in that year.

DJS is basically saying that Juve get to more finals that we do, totally ignoring the fact that in a year we had no trouble getting to the Quarter Final, Juve failed to qualify for the first round, they got knocked out in the preliminaries, the very preliminaries we had to go through when we won the cup in 98/99.

Now, if you take the number of points each club scored each year over a ten year period and add them all together, we come second to Real Madrid. Baically the list I gave and the last list Suedesi gave.

yes, this is nice and all. but really, what do you need facts for when you have the subjective reality of a liverpool supporter?

juventus advance further than united in the champions league. end of!

 

[WeasteDevil]

juventus advance further than united in the champions league. end of!

Not year on year over ten they dont!


Maybe just three times!

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

juventus advance further than united in the champions league. end of!

2002/2003:
Juventus - runners up
United - Quarter finals

2001/2002:
Juventus - 2nd group stage
United - Semi finals

2000/2001:
Juventus - 1st group stage
United - Quarter finals

1999/2000
Juventus - did not qualify
United - Quarter finals

1998/1999
Juventus - Semi finals
United - Winners

1997/1998
Juventus - runners up
United - Quarter finals

1996/1997
Juventus - runners up
United - Semi finals

1995/1996
Juventus - winners
United - did not qualify

 

[Kevrockcity]

2002/2003:
Juventus - runners up
United - Quarter finals

2001/2002:
Juventus - 2nd group stage
United - Semi finals

2000/2001:
Juventus - 1st group stage
United - Quarter finals

1999/2000
Juventus - did not qualify
United - Quarter finals

1998/1999
Juventus - Semi finals
United - Winners

1997/1998
Juventus - runners up
United - Quarter finals

1996/1997
Juventus - runners up
United - Semi finals

1995/1996
Juventus - winners
United - did not qualify

sorry, i am just going to have to disregard any argumentation that questions statements made by djs. he is above facts and evidence. the only arbiter of truth. kind of like jesus, except a scouser.

 

[DJSpaz]

My main argument was that history shows Juve (and Milan) seem to find reaching the final easier than United find it....Boring has kindly proven me to be right and thus, i dont feel it's unreasonable for me to rate the 2 Italian sides' chances of success in the CL this season more highly than i do United's.

Thanks for clearing it up Boring.

 

[MrMarcello]

I agree with scouser here...Juve does reach the finals more often than United. I did pick Juve to win the CL this year. Right now, I still think United have a great shot at reaching the semifinals.

My top 5 in the order I rate their CL chances as of today:

1. Juventus (most complete team and have the bottle)
2. Milan (still the champs till defeated)
3. Madrid (lack of quality back four will be their undoing)
4. United (Rio's loss will hurt; need Ole and Saha, IMO)
5. Arsenal (depending on draw, they could sneak into semis)

 

[Kevrockcity]

My main argument was that history shows Juve (and Milan) seem to find reaching the final easier than United find it....Boring has kindly proven me to be right and thus, i dont feel it's unreasonable for me to rate the 2 Italian sides' chances of success in the CL this season more highly than i do United's.

Thanks for clearing it up Boring.

no, your main arguments were that (a) juventus were better at winning the champions league that united and (b) were better at advancing further than united. both of these statements have been demonstated to be quite false. so you've fallen back on this "reaching the final easier" business to prove...what exactly? that juve have a better shot at winning than united? well, they get to final easier, but when they get there, they don't win it as easier than united (finals to wins ratio). te fact that juve has gotten to more finals proves only that...juve has demonstrated the ability to get to more finals. not the ability to win more. not the ability to consistently advance further.

like marcello, i would probably say juve stand a better chance than united at winning it this year - for reasons associated how strong i feel their team. but to say that recent history somehow supports this, as djs seems to arguing, is really unsubstantiated by facts. sorry.

 

[Suedesi]

I keep saying that Juve has a crap defense this year and none listens.

MILAN everybody, that's the team to beat this year.

 

[devilish]

I keep saying that Juve has a crap defense this year and none listens.

MILAN everybody, that's the team to beat this year.

Yes youre right

Juventus defense is getting a bit too old with players like Thuram and Ferrara showing signs of age. Their successors, Birindelli (a sort of talentles Wes), Iuliano and Legrottalie are ordinary players forcing Juve to search new talent (their prime targets are Ferrari and Bonera of Parma)

 

[Suedesi]

2002/2003:
Juventus - runners up
United - Quarter finals

2001/2002:
Juventus - 2nd group stage
United - Semi finals

2000/2001:
Juventus - 1st group stage
United - Quarter finals

1999/2000
Juventus - did not qualify
United - Quarter finals

1998/1999
Juventus - Semi finals
United - Winners

1997/1998
Juventus - runners up
United - Quarter finals

1996/1997
Juventus - runners up
United - Semi finals

1995/1996
Juventus - winners
United - did not qualify

That seems like a 4-4 draw to me with United being more consistent i.e
4 QF, 1SM, 1W, 1DNQ, while Juve have 1W, 3Runners Up, 1 SF, 2Group Stages, 1 DNQ.

Basically Juve had a bad patch when Lippi quit, and they're back in it now that he is back.

 

[Suedesi]

Yes youre right

Juventus defense is getting a bit too old with players like Thuram and Ferrara showing signs of age. Their successors, Birindelli (a sort of talentles Wes), Iuliano and Legrottalie are ordinary players forcing Juve to search new talent (their prime targets are Ferrari and Bonera of Parma)

Legro is okay, but Montero, Thuram and to a certain extent Ferrara have been poor all season long. Notice how even Buffon doesn not seem extraordinary all of a sudden

 

[devilish]

Personally the only team that can be called complete in the CL is AC Milan. It’s the only team that pride of the right dose of quality and quantity at every department.

Juventus (the defense had become their Achilles heel), Madrid (defense problems), Manchester United (at their first stage of their transition period) and Arsenal (they don’t have enough quality in the quantity to win the CL) should be considered as their direct competitors. Especially Real Madrid whose experience in the CL is considered as an important asset.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

My main argument was that history shows Juve (and Milan) seem to find reaching the final easier than United find it....Boring has kindly proven me to be right and thus, i dont feel it's unreasonable for me to rate the 2 Italian sides' chances of success in the CL this season more highly than i do United's.

Thanks for clearing it up Boring.

History shows that Liverpool have won more league titles than United

Does that mean they're more likely to win the league this year?

 

[DJSpaz]

no, your main arguments were that (a) juventus were better at winning the champions league that united and (b) were better at advancing further than united. both of these statements have been demonstated to be quite false. so you've fallen back on this "reaching the final easier" business to prove...what exactly? that juve have a better shot at winning than united? well, they get to final easier, but when they get there, they don't win it as easier than united (finals to wins ratio). te fact that juve has gotten to more finals proves only that...juve has demonstrated the ability to get to more finals. not the ability to win more. not the ability to consistently advance further.

like marcello, i would probably say juve stand a better chance than united at winning it this year - for reasons associated how strong i feel their team. but to say that recent history somehow supports this, as djs seems to arguing, is really unsubstantiated by facts. sorry.

No, my argument was that Juve find reaching the final easier than United do. I might not have phrased it perfectly, but i know full well what i meant, so i dont need you to tell me what my point was or what i was thinking.

Now then, you seem to agree that Juve find it easier to reach the final than United, and being 'better' at reaching the final surely equates to having a better chance of winning the trophy - which is what i said Juve and Milan have, as opposed to United.

Thanks for finally agreeing with me.

 

[DJSpaz]

History shows that Liverpool have won more league titles than United

Does that mean they're more likely to win the league this year?

Totally different scenario as you know.

You'll probably show your stupidity by asking why.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

No, my argument was that Juve find reaching the final easier than United do.

No, you said Juventus are better at winning the CL than United

That is wat you said

You've obviously realised now what a daft comment that was

 

[DJSpaz]

No, you said Juventus are better at winning the CL than United

That is wat you said

You've obviously realised now what a daft comment that was

I know what i meant, and i've reiterated it.

You often say things that come out wrongly.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

I know what i meant, and i've reiterated it.

You often say things that come out wrongly.

Nowhere near as often as you it seems

 

[Raoul]

This is definitely a classic contender.

 

[DJSpaz]

Nowhere near as often as you it seems

That is wat you said

 

[Kevrockcity]

No, my argument was that Juve find reaching the final easier than United do. I might not have phrased it perfectly, but i know full well what i meant, so i dont need you to tell me what my point was or what i was thinking.

Now then, you seem to agree that Juve find it easier to reach the final than United, and being 'better' at reaching the final surely equates to having a better chance of winning the trophy - which is what i said Juve and Milan have, as opposed to United.

Thanks for finally agreeing with me.

here is a summary of some of your comments made thus far in this thread:

(post #371) In response to weastedevil saying that "United have been the second most successful club in the European Cup over the past 10 years," you say "I'm sure Juve and Milan will settle for that, while glancing proudly at their trophy cabinet."

(post #295) In response to weastedevil saying "We are also the ONLY teams to reach the knockout phases of the competition every season over the last 8 years," you say "Means sod-all mate. Do you get a trophy for reaching the knock out phase?"

by your own definition, reaching a final but not winning (ie: second best) means "sod all" and that is the "trophy cabinet" that truly matters. how exactly do you reconcile this with your new position stating that, despite the fact that juventus and united have an equal amount of champions league trophies, the number of finals juventus has reached (which should be "sod all") is suddenly meaningful? and how is reaching finals an accurate meter of champions league success, when discussing united and juventus - despite reaching many more finals, juventus has not won more titles. ie: finals reached is a poor indicator in this instance.

(post #398) you say "it's not unreasonable to say that (juventus has) PROVEN their ability to last in the competition better than you have." i hope earlier entries in this thread have PROVEN (see, i can use caps, too) this statement to be demonstably false. you probably meant that "lasting better" was solely defined by finals reached - again, i'm quite confused as to the sudden turnaround in regards to teams that do not win trophies. i would think "lasting better" would mean taking hoem a trophy, since everything else means "sod all."

since you previously state that united has a habit of "bottling it" and "capitulating" in the knock-out stage, then mustn't one conclude that juventus does the same in the final (something united certainly does not do)? if you are going to use history as your sole reference, you should probably change you argumentation to "juventus is more likely to reach the final, but united is more likely to win a final, resulting in equivalent odds to win the champions league."

but, you know, this would be employing logic...

 

[DJSpaz]

You went to the trouble of typing out an essay and STILL missed the point.

Juve, by your own admission, seem to be the better side at progressing through the competition. Now, which side do you think would stand more chance of winning the trophy...the side who gets to the final, or the side who gets knocked out in the last 16 / 8 / 4 of the competition?

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Now, which side do you think would stand more chance of winning the trophy...the side who gets to the final, or the side who gets knocked out in the last 16 / 8 / 4 of the competition?

The side which wins the final

 

[DJSpaz]

The side which wins the final

And which side has more chance of doing that? The one that actually gets there, or the one that's watching it on TV?

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

And which side has more chance of doing that? The one that actually gets there, or the one that's watching it on TV?

Well, in the evidence of Juve and United, it's obviously not made a difference the fact that Juve have made more finals.

 

[DJSpaz]

Well, in the evidence of Juve and United, it's obviously not made a difference the fact that Juve have made more finals.

See, now you're being daft.

Clearly the team that wins the trophy needs to get to the final before they can comtemplate winning the competition and, as proven, Juve are proven to be better at you than reaching the final.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

See, now you're being daft.

Clearly the team that wins the trophy needs to get to the final before they can comtemplate winning the competition and, as proven, Juve are proven to be better at you than reaching the final.

And, as even you can gather, that's made no difference in terms of trophies won compared to United

 

[DJSpaz]

And, as even you can gather, that's made no difference in terms of trophies won compared to United

So you think that'd stay the same, should you continue your poor of not reaching finals, and Juve kept getting to finals at the same ratio as they have done in the last 10 years?

I noticed that you yourself have tipped Juve for the Champions League and not United.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

So you think that'd stay the same, should you continue your poor of not reaching finals, and Juve kept getting to finals at the same ratio as they have done in the last 10 years?

I noticed that you yourself have tipped Juve for the Champions League and not United.

Well, if history of the last 10 years repeats itself, then Juve will get to 4 finals and win 1 of them over the next 10 years, while we'll win the 1 we'll get...

I've not argued you point about Juve being a favourite - I've argued your point about us not being among the 5-6 best teams in Europe.

 

[DJSpaz]

Well, if history of the last 10 years repeats itself, then Juve will get to 4 finals and win 1 of them over the next 10 years, while we'll win the 1 we'll get...

I've not argued you point about Juve being a favourite - I've argued your point about us not being among the 5-6 best teams in Europe.

Fair enough.

I dont dispute top 5-6, but i doubt you'll get to the last four of the CL.

IMO, Madrid, Juve, Milan & Valencia are all better than you without doubt and Bayern are on a par with you.

It could also be argued that Arsenal are better than you at the moment, but that's one road we've all been down many times before.