Saha is an ungrateful, disloyal bastard

[Suedesi]

Ahh... add the points? Sure. But isn't that misleading?

 

[WeasteDevil]

Club Table:

This table shows the calculation of the UEFA team coefficients, which are determined by the number of points added to 50% of the country coefficient

Country Table:

This table shows the details of the calculation of the UEFA country coefficients, which are determined by the number of points divided by the number of participating teams.

To find out the success of a club, you should just add together the points earned by the club each year, not their calculated coefficient.

 

[WeasteDevil]

Look, the country coefficients for 2002/2003:

Cup Win Draw Loss Bonus Points Average
1 Italy 7 teams
37 26 21 14 111.5 15.928
2 AC Milan CL 10 4 5 4 27.0
3 Internazionale CL 8 7 3 3 24.5
5 Juventus CL 8 4 5 4 24.0
10 Lazio Roma UC 6 4 2 2 18.0
26 AS Roma CL 3 5 4 1 12.0
61 AC Parma UC 2 1 1 0 5.0
126 Chievo Verona UC 0 1 1 0 1.0

Cup Win Draw Loss Bonus Points Average
2 Spain 8 teams
50 17 17 9 124.0 15.500
1 FC Barcelona CL 13 2 1 2 28.0
6 Valencia CL 8 4 2 2 22.0
8 Real Madrid CL 7 5 4 3 22.0
13 Málaga CF UC 6 3 1 1 16.0
18 Deportivo La Coruña CL 6 1 5 1 14.0
29 Real Betis UC 5 0 1 0 10.0
45 Celta de Vigo UC 3 1 2 0 7.0
61 CD Alavés UC 2 1 1 0 5.0

.
.
.

Cup Win Draw Loss Bonus Points Average
4 England 9 teams
39 17 22 6 96.0 10.666
4 Manchester United CL 11 1 4 2 24.0
11 Liverpool UC 6 3 3 2 17.0
18 Arsenal CL 4 5 3 1 14.0
21 Newcastle United CL 7 1 6 1 14.0
38 Leeds United UC 3 2 1 0 8.0
38 Fulham FC UC 3 2 1 0 8.0
45 Ipswich Town UC 4 1 1 0 7.0
102 Chelsea UC 1 0 1 0 2.0
107 Blackburn Rovers UC 0 2 2 0 2.0

England are 4th after Portugal, yet 50% of that country coefficient is added to a club's points score to get their coefficient.

Only the points scored by each team directly compared to the points scored by another team is the fair comparison.

Thus, in that case, we come second.

 

[WeasteDevil]

Oh, and dont include those points gained from the UEFA Cup either!

 

[Suedesi]

Ok, the points:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Total Total CL
Points 2003/2004 2002/2003 2001/2002 2000/2001 1999/2000 1998/1999 1997/1998 1996/1997 1995/1996 1994/1995

Man Utd 11 23 25 18 21 20 14 12 2 7 153 151

Juve 10 24 14 6 11 14 17 22 18 22 158 125

Bayern 8 3 23 30 24 19 11 2 24 12 156 130

Real 11 22 31 23 27 11 21 0 11 7 164 157

Milan 8 26 19 15 6 0 0 6 14 18 112 98

The first bold number is the total points in Europe, the second the total in EC/CL.

 

[WeasteDevil]

So, we do come second then?

 

[Suedesi]

Only the points scored by each team directly compared to the points scored by another team is the fair comparison.

Thus, in that case, we come second.

I think coefficients are a fairer measure.

For example it is (or was rather) much tougher for a Italian and a Spanish team to make it in the CL than an English one. It's not our fault that Arse, Pool, Chelseas, etc. are crap in the CL, but on the other hand it is easier for us to get to the CL when dealing with such crap teams, whereas Lazio, Inter, Parma / Barca, Valencia, Zaragoza have been stronger than the above mentioned crap. OK?

Secondly, the coefficient points are the index used by UEFA to rank teams. And to them it does not matter whether it is CL or UC, for the reason above.

Since both of us are anal retentive cnuts, here is what this exercise proves.

Man Utd have the fourth best coefficient in Europe over the last 10 years, but the second beat coefficient over ONLY CL games. (However stupid that is).

Man Utd also have the fourth best number of points racked up in in Europe over the last 10 years, but the second number of points gained ONLY in CL games.

feck it, Real is still first.

 

[WeasteDevil]

IMO you can only compare like with like, and if it goes purley on performances in the CL over then years, then we are the second most successful.

It doesn't matter who has the stongest league, by adding that in, you are not comaring like with like.

Obviously, the only real way to know would be to have a true European League.

 

[WeasteDevil]

feck it, Real is still first.

That does piss me off!

 

[VanNistelrater]

Anyway.........
--------------

Louis Saha has defended his part in securing a move to Old Trafford, and has thanked his former club Fulham for allowing the transfer to go ahead.

As Sir Alex Ferguson and David Gill unveiled the £12.825 million Frenchman at Old Trafford, Saha told the assembled press how he had to take action to secure his dream move.

He said: "I have to say thank you to Fulham because they brought me here and gave me the opportunity to play in the Premiership. But at the same time I was in Division 1 with them so I think I did a good job for them. They have been great for me in the good and the bad times."

"I'm not the type of guy who will make things harder for anyone, but I've got a view that it's a great chance to play at the biggest club in the world so I was very excited about that. When I saw that it (the move) was struggling in some ways I just stepped forward because I thought it might pass.

"I wasn't happy and I made them (Fulham) understand that. I had to make them understand that I was determined to join a big club. I might shock someone but in the same way I have to be a bit selfish."

 

[DJSpaz]

Right, fact proved. United have been the second most successful club in the European Cup over the past 10 years.

According to UEFA Stats.

I'm sure Juve and Milan will settle for that, while glancing proudly at their trophy cabinet.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

I'm sure Juve and Milan will settle for that, while glancing proudly at their trophy cabinet.

United have won more trophies than Juve the last decade

 

[VanNistelrater]

United have won more trophies than Juve the last decade

He's not very good at this, is he?

 

[DJSpaz]

United have won more trophies than Juve the last decade

Bit difficult for Juve to win the Premiership & FA Cup, dont you think?

They've won the same number of European Cups as you in the last 10 years, and reached more finals.

 

[VanNistelrater]

and reached more finals.

But I thought we were talking trophey cabinets?

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

Bit difficult for Juve to win the Premiership & FA Cup, dont you think?

They've won the same number of European Cups as you in the last 10 years, and reached more finals.

And it's the trophies they won by reaching the finals they are glancing proudly at?

Fecking ejit!

 

[DJSpaz]

But I thought we were talking trophey cabinets?

The argument i've been making is that IMO, Juve stand more chance of winning the CL than you this season.

FYI - reaching more finals = more chance of winning the CL...which is kinda the whole point.

Another wooshes over your little head

 

[DJSpaz]

Fecking ejit!

Irony - thy name is ExtremelyTwattishMan.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

The argument i've been making is that IMO, Juve stand more chance of winning the CL than you this season.

FYI - reaching more finals = more chance of winning the CL...which is kinda the whole point.

Another wooshes over your little head

So, because Juve has appeared in more finals before, they have more chance of winning the CL this season?

 

[DJSpaz]

So, because Juve has appeared in more finals before, they have more chance of winning the CL this season?

They reach the final more often than you do, suggesting they've a little more experience of how to advance further than you do.

This really makes me laugh, the arrogance of Mancs makes it impossible for them to accept any opinion other than one which agrees with them.

 

[Gutsy]

Irony - thy name is ExtremelyTwattishMan.

This really makes me laugh, the arrogance of Mancs makes it impossible for them to accept any opinion other than one which agrees with them.

Stones - Greenhouses?

 

[WeasteDevil]

They reach the final more often than you do, suggesting they've a little more experience of how to advance further than you do.

This really makes me laugh, the arrogance of Mancs makes it impossible for them to accept any opinion other than one which agrees with them.

Fecking hell DJS, the figures show that apart from Real madrid, year in, year out, we get further than anyone, including Juventus. So, Valencia have reached more finals than us, do you think that they might this year?

 

[VanNistelrater]

The argument i've been making is that IMO, Juve stand more chance of winning the CL than you this season.

FYI - reaching more finals = more chance of winning the CL...which is kinda the whole point.

Another wooshes over your little head

Do you ever wonder why everyone thinks your a gimp, including your fellow Liverpool supporters?.

And how exactly do you know my head is 'little', surely you are not in a position to state as such given that you've never met nor seen me. Daft bugger. How old are you?

 

[njred]

This thread still going on?Just wont f*ckin die will it?

 

[Mr. Wood]

This thread still going on?Just wont f*ckin die will it?

You'd think that after 10 pages, they'd have figured out if Saha is an ungrateful, disloyal bastard or not.

 

[Cal?]

You'd think that after 10 pages, they'd have figured out if Saha is an ungrateful, disloyal bastard or not.

We have, but DJS still hasn't worked out that United's record in the CL is actually better than most.

 

[DJSpaz]

Fecking hell DJS, the figures show that apart from Real madrid, year in, year out, we get further than anyone, including Juventus. So, Valencia have reached more finals than us, do you think that they might this year?

Weaste, that's fine - United can continue to amass more points at the group stages and choke when it matters, while Juve 'scrape' through the groups and 'stagger' their way to finals.

I'm happy with that, as i'm sure Juve are - so if United are too, there isnt a problem then, is there?

 

[DJSpaz]

Stones - Greenhouses?

Greenhouses?

Do you mean glass houses?

 

[WeasteDevil]

Weaste, that's fine - United can continue to amass more points at the group stages and choke when it matters, while Juve 'scrape' through the groups and 'stagger' their way to finals.

I'm happy with that, as i'm sure Juve are - so if United are too, there isnt a problem then, is there?

Doesn't really matter when you "choke" though does it, if you are going to that is!

What about when they "choked" by failing to qualify, you know, did a Newcastle?

 

[WeasteDevil]

On average, we just happen to "choke" far less, and much later than everyone except Madrid.

 

[Gutsy]

Greenhouses?

Do you mean glass houses?

Same thing you pedantic arse.

 

[An Extremely Boring Man]

DJS is like clockwork - come 6pm, and he comes on here every fecking day

He probably can't wait to log-on to United's RedCafe while at school, and runs home as fast as he can

 

[WeasteDevil]

What about when they "choked" by failing to qualify, you know, did a Newcastle?

Ended up playing for that tinpot the scousers are so fond of.

 

[Suedesi]

The argument i've been making is that IMO, Juve stand more chance of winning the CL than you this season.

I doubt it.

I'm sure you love making those little "theoretical" and "logical" arguments, but in "reality" Juve have a crap defense this year.

 

[DJSpaz]

Doesn't really matter when you "choke" though does it, if you are going to that is!

What about when they "choked" by failing to qualify, you know, did a Newcastle?

Well the point is, that given Juve's tendency to choke at a later stage than you (in more cases than not), i'm of the opinion that they'll go further than you this year.

 

[WeasteDevil]

Well the point is, that given Juve's tendency to choke at a later stage than you (in more cases than not), i'm of the opinion that they'll go further than you this year.

You're forgetting them "choking" before a real stage began.

 

[DJSpaz]

I doubt it.

I'm sure you love making those little "theoretical" and "logical" arguments, but in "reality" Juve have a crap defense this year.

If we were all able to precisely pick the winners of each competition, we'd all be as rich as Abramovich.

It's called making a prediction, based on my opinion - am i not allowed to do that?

 

[DJSpaz]

You're forgetting them "choking" before a real stage began.

BUT, they HAVE reached the final more than your good selves, so it's not unreasonable to say that they've PROVEN their ability to last in the competition better than you have.

I know you see my point, you're just being an awkward cnut.

 

[DJSpaz]

DJS is like clockwork - come 6pm, and he comes on here every fecking day

Sorry, but i'm not going to quit my job so i can spend 23 1/2 hours a day here, like you.

 

[WeasteDevil]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one DJS, otherwise we'll be arguing about it until Roy Keane lifts the cup in May.