At that specific moment in time, please go on and enlighten us.
Saka vs Foden vs Palmer
- Thread starter Walters_19_MuFc
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He thought the best decision for the team was to select a different player from his squad full of top class players.
Good trolling. Have a nice day.
Not trolling mate, I just genuinely believe the answer is that simple.
Guardiola didn’t just drop Foden, he switched up the way City play. When Arsenal faced them (or you - I’m not sure if your a City fan) Silva was playing wingback. Seemed mad at the time, but that was the pre-cursor to the 3-2-4-1 formation that went on to dominate all opposition.
But all the paragraph above is really just a more detailed expression of the very simple point that Guardiola picked what he thought were the best teams to win trophies.
If you consider that trolling, I think that says more about you than about it does about the merits of my argument.
So i decided to go and check. Of the 11 games post Manchester derby, until the WC break, Foden started in 5, played in another 4 and was unavailable for 2
I do think Arteta is one of the best coaches of this new generation. There are plenty of good coaches who don't make the final step though which is adding the rare quality of winning and keeping on winning. I don't think Southgate is on that level and more importantly, international football is usually dominated by great man managers and in-game tacticians, like Del Bosque, Deschamps and the great Italians so I think even if Southgate was a great coach, I am not sure the setup of international football enables that quality to show like it does in club football.
That has been City's main formation since the second Guardiola walked through the door. The only difference between last season and the others is he went from playing a midfielder/winger as a nominal fullback and having that player alternating between the double pivot and the wing vs playing 4 career CBs and having one move up into the double pivot
Admittedly he did change defensive formation from 4-3-3 base to 442, but that was from back in 20/21
Thanks for looking it up.
It kinda seems like he was part of an incredibly high level squad with plenty of competition for places.
I’m genuinely curious @Moby, are you saying that Guardiola had some personal problem with Foden that was so serious he decided to sabotage him at expense of his own team? Or something else? You haven’t actually specified, so it’s impossible to know what you’re actually getting at.
I think I disagree. Slightly. While he’s played with inverting FBs for a while (so much so that Arteta came back for Zinchenko) Fernandinho and Rodri were both often tasked with patrolling as genuine single pivots - much like Busquets at Barca. Whereas Stones was straight up playing in midfield alongside Rodri by the end of last season.
It was quite different. And it was kind of messy at first. They were quite lucky to beat us when first met. Looking back, I think there was an element of karmic payback with us pushing to get our game against City rescheduled due to the Queen’s death. We had a couple injuries, so at the time it seemed beneficial. But with hindsight, we were in great form and City were still figuring their tactics out - so it would probably have been better for us to have taken them on then, even with a slightly weaker lineup.
No. It was always 3-2-5. That was the entire point of the "inverted fullbacks". The role of the second pivot wasn't fixed and instead shared between usually the nominal LB(delph and zinchenko, mostly, before Cancelo) and one of the nominal midfielders(David Silva, Gundogan, Bernardo). Whereas with Stones, it's specifically Stones role
Guardiola began experimenting with that formation at Barcelona and was his main formation throughout all 3 seasons at Bayern already
Yep, the bolded is a key point. There is far less time to work with the players, so these skill become even more important.
I kinda wish we could see what SAF would have done with the England team. Both his former players and he himself have spoken publicly about how he intentionally kept tactical instructions as simple as possible. He would have got us playing like a team, as opposed to the group of talented individuals we often looked like.
Ah right, I see what you mean, I think we’re agreeing.
Yup, Sir Alex definitely falls into that category. Ancelotti and Zidane are other clear standouts and you can chuck in Mourinho and Simeone in that category too. I am not saying they're the same but they all rely more on the soft qualities and extracting the best out of individuals through creating an energy and a personality that top players can be safe in and extra motivated to perform in. It's a type of management that has its limitations as it often comes short against a super well drilled team tactically but you don't come across that often in international football.
I don't disagree with you at all. But I suppose the optimism comes from the feeling that it's their time to kick on. Foden, Grealish, Saka and Bellingham are all on the cusp to take the next step. That's why I think the optimism is justified as it is indeed a very exciting generation but I also think the idea that it is England's tournament to win is a bit over the top since one can only say that about teams that have already shown they can win and the fact is, these players bar the City ones haven't won anything.
He started first 10 league games of the season. Then was dropped vs Brighton and started 3 out of next 10 games. Then started 9 out of last 12 games. So that absense in the middle set is what I was referring to, which wasn't down to Pep thinking he wasn't in his best 11 for the season given he got the starts back for the final third of the season (when they went on to win those trophies). But that's what is relevant to the overall discussion that pep has played around with Foden's career and disrupted his place in the team despite him being in excellent form and giving great output, while other managers don't attempt such changes and a lot of other playera would have not been dropped when they were in form like that. Say if Foden played for Liverpool who would have entire seasons without needless rotation or playing him out of position and it is not a secret that pep rotates needlessly and has been guilty of putting out nonsensical line ups. And no winning trophies doesn't dissolve him of making absurd changes. He got blamed for the same thing by Bayern fans for the same reasons and playing fecking WM formations in CL games and they were right about it. Heck city fans right now are angry with him for starting shite like Doku and playing Alvarez as a DM (another case where a guy who is a striker was scoring and assisting really well and then gets played in central midfield because....?).
My point is more along the lines of "international football is not club football, players don't have a lot of time together to gel, managers don't have a lot of time to work on tactics", "Your guys aren't the modern equivalent of 1970 Brazil and even that wouldn't work today anyways" and "have you learned nothing from the gerrard-lampard era"
Basically: figure our who your true attacking stars are, then build a coeherent team around them. If it's Bellingham(and it is, to be sure), you drop Foden, or play him through the left if you can. Don't experiment with improbable configurations
Right. I get what you're saying. Don't particularly disagree either
Though it must be said not only has Guardiola finally won a CL with the WM, he brought it back! Everybody plays it these days
Yeah, I am not trying to come across is someone who disagrees with his tactics and I am big fan of a lot of the things he's brought to the game, but there are definitely instances where he's made errors and there have been multiple instances with Foden which I remember as being baffling decisions. Both in terms of starts or his position in the team. And that has made Foden's progress more challenging (along with the fact that city squad is always quite strong) as opposed to other teams where players have managers who are less radical.Right. I get what you're saying. Don't particularly disagree either
Though it must be said not only has Guardiola finally won a CL with the WM, he brought it back! Everybody plays it these days
And it's actually funny because this ties up with what Pep said yesterday about Foden and that he's a top class player "now", it definitely shows that he had a lack of trust with him in the past which fortunately for him is now possibly resolved and we are seeing the results.
I strongly disagree. This is a team with Foden, Saka, Grealish, Madison, Kane. To name just 5. All their weaknessss as a team lie in center defence and the lack of depth in deeper midfield
They really are not. That is why Southgate grants them so much protection. .
People love to pretend Southgate hasn't a clue. But he is no dunce.
You are still ignoring the fact they do it alongside a solid and compatible pair in Saliba and Gabriel. For all the talented CBS England has at their disposal. Their isn't a single pairing as solid. So no, the partnerships are NOT there.....
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You are mistaken. He plays as a 10 at the tip of a diamond. Having a top center forward ahead would actually increase his goal scoring chances because he'd have more decoys hiding his runs......
Can't argue that really. That's what France did with Mbappé and Argentina with Messi. I am also not onboard with the idea that these players will just play like they do for their clubs when that's a very specific setup that's been worked on for many years. If it was that easy, any rich club would be able to play that way. The only time I can remember a national team transferring their club style to the international scene is the Spanish team that won three major trophies on the trot but we were talking there about possibly the greatest team of their generation producing half or more of the team.My point is more along the lines of "international football is not club football, players don't have a lot of time together to gel, managers don't have a lot of time to work on tactics", "Your guys aren't the modern equivalent of 1970 Brazil and even that wouldn't work today anyways" and "have you learned nothing from the gerrard-lampard era"
Basically: figure our who your true attacking stars are, then build a coeherent team around them. If it's Bellingham(and it is, to be sure), you drop Foden, or play him through the left if you can. Don't experiment with improbable configurations
I know where he plays. I think his goal output may very well go down next season when Real have a top class striker leading the line. He’s likely to operate a little deeper and spend more time in the buildup rather than getting in the end of things. Which would make Real an even more dangerous team than they already are.
Spain didn't even transfer 1to1. They setup and played quite a bit different from Barcelona, in common they had the exasperated possession, and the counterpress. And that team drew as many as 6 or 7 starters from a single team. And it was still an era of football that might as well be the jurassic as far as the evolution of football is concerned
No, not really
This is where I think there’s been a bit of a disconnect, I don’t really find Guardiola’s selection history of Foden ar all baffling. He’s given Foden over 250 appearances in the most competitive squad on the planet.
If Foden is only just now trusted over all of the other options Guardiola has at his disposal, aged 23, he’s still massively ahead of schedule and a source of pride for City’s academy.
Fair enough, we can agree to disagree on that.
He trains them every day for months on end. Southgate doesn't have the same time training time. It's a big reason why inverting fullbacks hasn't caught on in international football management circles
They currently play a 4-4-2 diamond with two free role attackers uptop. Mbappe will be the goal machine added to Vini Jr. ahead of Bellingham. I honestly fail to see how his goal put goes down with those two not only taking attention for him but also able to pick him out with assists. Especially with the tactical set up Ancelotti has built the two flank midfielders will be running all Real's midfield build up going forward. With the fullbacks pushed up during attacks almost making a 2-1-4-1-2 shape.
I’m not ignoring that, I just think your point is true of all international teams.
Gabriel and Saliba are the defensive duo that have concede the fewest goals in one of, if not the, strongest leagues in the world. They’ve played together every week for nearly two years. Not only do England not have a partnership like that, no international team does. Therefore, England are not really at much of a disadvantage relative to all the other teams in the tournament in that regard.
The point is NO other side in international football plays as complicated a system as inverted fullbacks. In fact the only real innovation in international football since the year 2000 is Bielsa's 3-3-1-3.
Maybe it’s because I watch Arsenal every week, but inverting fullbacks doesn’t seem like a total reinvention of football - it’s just a slight tactical tweak.
After all, fullbacks (and all positions) have always had a tactical bias. They might be expected to overlap and whip in crosses. Our underlap for cut backs. They might double up on a dangerous winger out wide. Or tuck in to support their CBs when facing a deadly striker.
Now fullbacks have a responsibility to maintain midfield superiority. It’s an evolution of the role, not a revolution.
I agree that it can take a while for whatever tactics are popular in club football to filter through to international football. But if Southgate wanted his fullbacks to invert, virtually all of his defenders would be comfortable doing so. In fact, for many of them it’s the system they’re already playing in.
Fair enough. That would mean dropping Rodrygo, who’s been amazing. I would have thought…
Vinicius Jr / Mbappe / Rodrygo
Would be the way to go. But I could be wrong. None of them are bad options really, are they?
You see it every day at a club. That says it all. At clubs partnerships are built over long periods of time on the training ground and practice in regular matches. That is not how things work in international football. That's why even Spain at their recent peak didn't play exactly like Barca of Pep did. They were far more cagey.
I would have Foden on the left Saka on the right for England, Rashford would be ideal though if he was in good form, that extra pace can do wonders at international level.
Exactly. Ancelotti moving to the Diamond IMO has been excellent future planning. Especially post the Kroos, Casemiro, Modric era. For what they will lose in the control those 3 gave, they are gaining in attacking potency. Without sacrificing a sound defensive platform
Let's be real, England will always lack the technical quality and tactical nous to win anything.
When you compare our coaches, players, and pundits to their European and South American counterparts, we're significantly below the required level. This is mainly due to the incompetence of the FA in hiring the right people for selecting and educating coaches.
In Portugal, for example, the sport is taken much more seriously in terms of technical and social analysis. While the influx of foreign Premier League coaches has led to some tactical improvements, we still lag behind in technical and social aspects.
I don’t think the players lack tactical nous. They’re coached by the likes of Pep, Klopp, Ancellotti and Tuchel (I won’t include Arteta in such esteemed company - but he is also very much a modern Manager).
We have the squad to do it. Of course, that’s never been enough in international football, as the Netherlands trophy cabinet proves.
We've certain been enlightened tactically compared to before but technically and socially, there's still a gap to Portugal, Spain and France.
England have some unreal talent, would be a big fail for them to not win anything of note in the coming years. Must be favourites for the next Euros.