Saka vs Foden vs Palmer

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Talking about Saka V Foden really makes you realise the England team really should be winning something.

--------------------------------Pickford----------------------
Walker---------------Stones--------Maguire----------Shaw
--------------------------Rice------------????-------------------------
Saka--------------------Bellingham------------------Foden
---------------------------------Kane----------------------------------

That's an outrageous front 4 and the rest of the team is pretty good too !!

Only big question mark for me is that other midfield spot.... and Gareth.

Trent Alexander Arnold

 

[DJ_21]

Both great players and having great seasons. We’re lucky that both are English.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Both great players and having great seasons. We’re lucky that both are English.

Amen

 

[Von Mistelroum]

Saka for me, but I'd swap every one of our wingers for either of them.

 

[Greyfog]

STOP pretending Foden has not ever excelled for City as a wide player over the last 3 years.....

The discussion I responded to was about playing him in midfield. Of course he has excelled playing on the right wing and even on the left sometimes.

 

[Daydreamer]

He does it ahead of a superior cb partnership than ANY England can master, with an inverted fullbacks next to him.

Stones just won the Treble. And with Kiwior playing the last five games as a traditional LB, the inverted fullback next Rice has been… Ben White.

England have good players, we just have to select them.

 

[Greyfog]

Never mind Saka. Is Foden better than Cole Palmer?

 

[Daydreamer]

Trent Alexander Arnold

I’d love to see that midfield.

 

[Moby]

Never mind Saka. Is Foden better than Cole Palmer?

What do you think?

 

[giorno]

He does it ahead of a superior cb partnership than ANY England can master, with an inverted fullbacks next to him.

Not to mention neither Jude nor Foden is Odegaard or can offer the deep progression and tempo setting and control of Odegaard

Foden is strictly a final third player. Bellingham can play deeper, but you lose him as a difference maker if you do

 

[Fortitude]

And anyone who has watched that team knows it has nothing to do with his performances. He has been benched in the past after dropping man of the match performances and tearing apart the opposition. Saka should be happy he doesn't have a psychopath managing his team.

Do you mean this for effect or do you believe him to be one, Pep, I mean. If the latter, what led you to this conclusion?

 

[Moby]

Do you mean this for effect or do you believe him to be one, Pep, I mean. If the latter, what led you to this conclusion?

Definitely for effect. The context was dropping the player who had been putting motm performances and scoring goals and then permabenching him out of nowhere. Last season he got benched in 5 out of 6 games after scoring a hat trick vs man United and forming a great partnership up front with Erling.

 

[Fortitude]

Definitely for effect. The context was dropping the player who had been putting motm performances and scoring goals and then permabenching him out of nowhere. Last season he got benched in 5 out of 6 games after scoring a hat trick vs man United and forming a great partnership up front with Erling.

Got it, just I’ve had discussions with two people who genuinely believe him to be one. Wondered if you were in that camp.

 

[Moby]

Got it, just I’ve had discussions with two people who genuinely believe him to be one. Wondered if you were in that camp.

I've never met him.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Stones just won the Treble. ....

After selling England down the river in the world cup semi final vs France. Which is my point. Never conflate a good collection of players with winning pair ups.

It also quite funny that you mention Ben White. He has two full backs far more suited to inverting than him ahead of him fof England. Besides, England don't need to do fancy club shit like inverting whivb requires thd kinda coaching time found at club level. They simply need a permanent progressivg passing partner for Rice. Then two direct alternatives as back up. For my money Trent Alexander Arnold is the missing link. The next is to find an alternated to Rice since Phillips has lost himself and another deep lying playmaker partner

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Not to mention neither Jude nor Foden is Odegaard or can offer the deep progression and tempo setting and control of Odegaard

Foden is strictly a final third player. Bellingham can play deeper, but you lose him as a difference maker if you do

England have enough difference makers in the final third to sacrifice Bellingham deeper. For my money though their biggest issue is their center half pair. In international ball it sets up everything. If them pairings aren't rock solid you will struggle to win tournaments.

 

[Daydreamer]

After selling England down the river in the world cup semi final vs France. Which is my point. Never conflate a good collection of players with winning pair ups.

Believe me when I say that I think Gabriel + Saliba (Gabriel especially) don’t get the credit they deserve. I’m just saying that England clearly have quality CBs that are more than capable of forming a strong defensive spine with Rice protecting them.

Additionally, the fullback that is currently inverting to support Rice in midfield is not only English, but plays alongside him each week. White has also formed a productive and virtually ever present duo with Saka on the right flank.

The partnerships are already there, Southgate just has to pick them.

 

[giorno]

England have enough difference makers in the final third to sacrifice Bellingham deeper. For my money though their biggest issue is their center half pair. In international ball it sets up everything. If them pairings aren't rock solid you will struggle to win tournaments.

They don't. They really really don't. Sterling is falling apart and Kane is the reason England haven't won anything yet

 

[Theonas]

They don't. They really really don't. Sterling is falling apart and Kane is the reason England haven't won anything yet

England don't have some sort of stand out squad that would only fail to win the Euros because of Southgate as some would have you believe, but likewise to say they don't have difference makers is just odd. Apart from France and Portugal, who do you reckon has similar or higher quality of difference makers?

 

[giorno]

Definitely for effect. The context was dropping the player who had been putting motm performances and scoring goals and then permabenching him out of nowhere. Last season he got benched in 5 out of 6 games after scoring a hat trick vs man United and forming a great partnership up front with Erling.

It's interesting, particularly when you look at City's season as a whole. By the second half of the season Guardiola found the starting XI that worked best and just stuck with that. Considering they win everything, he was right. Evidently even as Foden was playing great Guardiola was seeing issues with the team

 

[giorno]

England don't have some sort of stand out squad that would only fail to win the Euros because of Southgate as some would have you believe, but likewise to say they don't have difference makers is just odd. Apart from France and Portugal, who do you reckon has similar or higher quality of difference makers?

I think Bellingham is the biggest difference maker England have right now, and putting him aside to rely on the guys who have been failing for England until now makes zero sense

 

[Daydreamer]

A FB Could invert to support Rice. Or a CB could push up into midfield (something both Stones and White are comfortable doing). So a nominal 4-3-3:

Rashford / Kane / Saka
Foden / Bellingham
Rice
Shaw / Stones / White / Walker​

Could easily defend with more of a box midfield:

Rashford / Kane / Saka
Foden / Bellingham
Rice / White
Shaw / Stones / Walker
​

Each of Walker, White, Stones, Shaw and Rice are positionally versatile and tactically flexible players who have played in those positions/systems before. Hell, Rice started out as a CB, so the potential for defensive solidity is quite high. And that’s without considering the options of Tomori and Alexander-Arnold (in midfield).

There are numerous ways we could accommodate a midfield of Foden / Rice / Bellingham. As a trio, it’s no more attacking than D. Silva / Fernandinho / de Bruyne. It’s certainly less attacking than Alvarez / Rodri / de Bruyne.

 

[Theonas]

I think Bellingham is the biggest difference maker England have right now, and putting him aside to rely on the guys who have been failing for England until now makes zero sense

Yes he is but that says more about him and his quality than it says about the rest of England's front players. You seemed to imply that England don't have players who can make a difference and by my count; Saka, Foden, Grealish, Maddison and Kane are on par with the best that Europe has to offer with Portugal and France looking really strong in that area as well.

 

[Jeffthered]

England don't have some sort of stand out squad that would only fail to win the Euros because of Southgate as some would have you believe, but likewise to say they don't have difference makers is just odd. Apart from France and Portugal, who do you reckon has similar or higher quality of difference makers?

If England don't win something with this current crop of players then I really don't know what to think. It's not only the strength of the England Squad, it's the fact that other traditional big international teams... Germany, Spain, Italy, Netherlands... add to that the teams from Eastern Europe who can produce outstanding teams.. but all of these teams seem to be in some sort of transition, or just lacking players. France are the threat, but as they have been quite successful in recent years, I would think they may be looking to another generation too. Portugal have to ease CR7 out and I'm not sure Martinez is the man to do that.

The only problem England have is Southgate because with those players, England should have won something by now, definitely.

 

[Theonas]

A FB Could invert to support Rice. Or a CB could push up into midfield (something both Stones and White are comfortable doing). So a nominal 4-3-3:

Rashford / Kane / Saka
Foden / Bellingham
Rice
Shaw / Stones / White / Walker​

Could easily defend with more of a box midfield:

Rashford / Kane / Saka
Foden / Bellingham
Rice / White
Shaw / Stones / Walker
​

Each of Walker, White, Stones, Shaw and Rice are positionally versatile and tactically flexible players who have played in those positions/systems before. Hell, Rice started out as a CB, so the potential for defensive solidity is quite high. And that’s without considering the options of Tomori and Alexander-Arnold (in midfield).

There are numerous ways we could accommodate a midfield of Foden / Rice / Bellingham. As a trio, it’s no more attacking than D. Silva / Fernandinho / de Bruyne. It’s certainly less attacking than Alvarez / Rodri / de Bruyne.

But those are midfields that play under the best coach in the world at setting up his team to possess the ball high up the pitch. Pep's obsession is to perfect how much his team control the game with possession and positioning. To expect anyone else to just be able to accommodate a similar profile of midfielders without that meticulous coaching from someone who has been doing for over a decade now is just very, very ambitious. I don't see or remember any international teams playing with that confidence and authority to just expect to always play in the opponent's half.

 

[giorno]

Yes he is but that says more about him and his quality than it says about the rest of England's front players. You seemed to imply that England don't have players who can make a difference and by my count; Saka, Foden, Grealish, Maddison and Kane are on par with the best that Europe has to offer with Portugal and France looking really strong in that area as well.

They haven't shown it for England is what I'm saying, or indeed at the highest level of competition in general. Graelish is a great pressing wing...Foden actually has a poor record for England. Kane is the guy hitting a double post against Croatia and missing the penalty against France. Saka is yet untested at that level. So is Bellingham technically, but A) you don't need to sacrifice one for the other and B) I think Bellingham is a level above

The biggest and most reliable difference maker England have had in the Southgate era is Sterling...and right now I wouldn't trust him to fetch me a glass of water without pissing his pants

 

[Daydreamer]

I think Bellingham is the biggest difference maker England have right now, and putting him aside to rely on the guys who have been failing for England until now makes zero sense

Isn’t Kane breaking all sorts of records at Bayern?

And isn’t Saka one of the most productive wingers in Europe’s top leagues?

Plus, hasn’t Foden has become a key player at the European champions this season?

As an England fan, I’m thrilled that Bellingham is killing it in La Liga. But part of the reason for his insane numbers is the fact that Real don’t have a top class CF (as you’ll know better than anyone). There is far less need for him to play that sort of role in a team captained by Harry Kane.

 

[Theonas]

If England don't win something with this current crop of players then I really don't know what to think. It's not only the strength of the England Squad, it's the fact that other traditional big international teams... Germany, Spain, Italy, Netherlands... add to that the teams from Eastern Europe who can produce outstanding teams.. but all of these teams seem to be in some sort of transition, or just lacking players. France are the threat, but as they have been quite successful in recent years, I would think they may be looking to another generation too. Portugal have to ease CR7 out and I'm not sure Martinez is the man to do that.

The only problem England have is Southgate because with those players, England should have won something by now, definitely.

I really think that's an exaggerated point. It assumes that there was any point in time where all these teams have been on top when the fact is that's never the case. Germany before the '00s built an entire reputation on always looking underwhelming until the big tournaments arrive. Italy were completely unfancied before winning the WC in 2006. Spain were a non entity on the international stage before 2008 whereas France between 2006 and 2016 were also nothing special. The Netherlands are hot and cold and consistently go from a top team brimming with quality to something like they had under LvG in 2014 when against all odds made it to a semi final.

The point is, this time is nothing special in terms of how many international teams are looking great. Only Spain in 2012 were fancied to win the Euros before it started in recent years. You'd have to go all the way back to 2000 when France won it before we had an expected winner. England have a great squad, the best in my lifetime in my opinion. But it's not good enough for me to look at it and go, that's too good not to win. The only squad I could say that about in my memory is Brazil 2002 and Spain's serial winners but international football very rarely if ever produce that level of quality that individuals can make so much difference.

 

[Moby]

Considering they win everything, he was right. Evidently even as Foden was playing great Guardiola was seeing issues with the team

There were no issues, their league record at the time was 7-2-1 with 10 games played and having put 6 past their main rivals. And Foden had started pretty much all games in that run and had 6 goals in 9 games. Dropping a player at that time is completely mental.

If we are gonna just say every single decision pep took over a season is perfectly justified because they won the trophies then there should never be any discussion about their team. That isn't the case.

 

[Daydreamer]

They haven't shown it for England is what I'm saying, or indeed at the highest level of competition in general. Graelish is a great pressing wing...Foden actually has a poor record for England. Kane is the guy hitting a double post against Croatia and missing the penalty against France. Saka is yet untested at that level. So is Bellingham technically, but A) you don't need to sacrifice one for the other and B) I think Bellingham is a level above

The biggest and most reliable difference maker England have had in the Southgate era is Sterling...and right now I wouldn't trust him to fetch me a glass of water without pissing his pants

Your argument is all over the place. Grealish and Foden haven’t been tested at the highest level? The literally won the CL nine months ago.

And as you say, neither has Bellingham. But anyone who’s watched him play for more than five minutes can see that he’s a quality player. You know, like Saka.

 

[Daydreamer]

There were no issues, their league record at the time was 7-2-1 with 10 games played and having put 6 past their main rivals. And Foden had started pretty much all games in that run and had 6 goals in 9 games. Dropping a player at that time is completely mental.

If we are gonna just say every single decision pep took over a season is perfectly justified because they won the trophies then there should never be any discussion about their team. That isn't the case.

I think it’s less that every decision Pep made was right and more that each decision was what he thought was best for the team. And had nothing to do with trying to hold back Foden. For some reason that you’re yet to specify.

Pep would have no reason to stagnate Foden’s progress. And the fact that they won every single major trophy on offer indicates that what he thought was best for the team was indeed best for the team.

 

[Daydreamer]

But those are midfields that play under the best coach in the world at setting up his team to possess the ball high up the pitch. Pep's obsession is to perfect how much his team control the game with possession and positioning. To expect anyone else to just be able to accommodate a similar profile of midfielders without that meticulous coaching from someone who has been doing for over a decade now is just very, very ambitious. I don't see or remember any international teams playing with that confidence and authority to just expect to always play in the opponent's half.

Three of them play for Arteta. I’d love to claim that he’s one of the best Coaches in the world, but right now he’s a Manager in his first job. If he can set up a team to have a defender step into midfield, I’m sure Southgate can.

 

[Moby]

I think it’s less that every decision Pep made was right and more that each decision was what he thought was best for the team. And had nothing to do with trying to hold back Foden. For some reason that you’re yet to specify.

Pep would have no reason to stagnate Foden’s progress. And the fact that they won every single major trophy on offer indicates that what he thought was best for the team was indeed best for the team.

How about you explain us the tactical justification of dropping Foden after that run of form with a better reason than "because Pep did it".

 

[giorno]

There were no issues, their league record at the time was 7-2-1 with 10 games played and having put 6 past their main rivals. And Foden had started pretty much all games in that run and had 6 goals in 9 games. Dropping a player at that time is completely mental.

ah well. Guardiola gonna Guardiola i guess. Too bad it worked out

 

[Moby]

ah well. Guardiola gonna Guardiola i guess. Too bad it worked out

Yeah, them winning the cup final 6 months later is what justified that call. Insightful chat there mate.

 

[giorno]

As an England fan, I’m thrilled that Bellingham is killing it in La Liga. But part of the reason for his insane numbers is the fact that Real don’t have a top class CF (as you’ll know better than anyone). There is far less need for him to play that sort of role in a team captained by Harry Kane.

well, 0 for 2 on that front. Knock yourselves outm or more likely, watch Kane knock England out

Your argument is all over the place. Grealish and Foden haven’t been tested at the highest level? The literally won the CL nine months ago.

Graelish was there for pressing and defending and Foden was a sub. Neither was what anybody would consider difference makers on that team

And as you say, neither has Bellingham. But anyone who’s watched him play for more than five minutes can see that he’s a quality player. You know, like Saka.

Indeed. And you don't need to sacrifice one for the other even! So why the feck would you? For Foden? Graelish?

 

[giorno]

Yeah, them winning the cup final 6 months later is what justified that call. Insightful chat there mate.

No, i wasn't being facetious there, that was to be taken literally

 

[Daydreamer]

How about you explain us the tactical justification of dropping Foden after that run of form with a better reason than "because Pep did it".

There’s really no need for me to explain it; that’s the beauty of sport. Coaches decide on lineups and tactics that they believe will give them the best chances of winning the game.

Winning one game is a single proof point.

Winning multiple games gives us a larger sample size and thus is stronger indicator.

Winning a trophy requires winning multiple games, so the evidence is yet stronger.

Winning multiple trophies is considered overwhelming evidence that sound selection and tactical decisions have taken place.

Finally, winning multiple trophies within a single season is felt to be such a difficult feat that we sometimes name entire seasons after the achievement (e.g. The Treble Season). This is commonly considered to be the result competent management.

 

[Moby]

There’s really no need for me to explain it; that’s the beauty of sport. Coaches decide on lineups and tactics that they believe will give them the best chances of winning the game.

Winning one game is a single proof point.

Winning multiple games gives us a larger sample size and thus is stronger indicator.

Winning a trophy requires winning multiple games, so the evidence is yet stronger.

Winning multiple trophies is considered overwhelming evidence that sound selection and tactical decisions have taken place.

Finally, winning multiple trophies within a single season is felt to be such a difficult feat that we sometimes name entire seasons after the achievement (e.g. The Treble Season). This is commonly considered to be the result competent management.

You didn't have to post so much fluff just to say that you don't have an answer to that. It's okay.

 

[Daydreamer]

You didn't have to post so much fluff just to say that you don't have an answer to that. It's okay.

Oh wait, you were being serious? You actually can’t think of a single justification for Foden’s non-selection?