Gerrard's best form and position came when he was playing ahead of Xabi Alonso and Mascherano, and he had a Torres with world class movement ahead of him. Xabi Alonso and Mascherano did all the grunt work in that midfield, allowing Gerrard to do what he was good at ie score and assist. He was never a dictator type of midfielder, and could never control a game the way Scholes could.
Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard debate.
- Thread starter Hammondo
- Start date
if fergie could gave swapped scholes for gerrard do you think he would have? i would say yes he would tbh.
What?! Scholes…one of the few players that played for one club under one manager. You think Fergie would have swapped him out? That’s an awful take.
I think end of the day it's so much harder to find a #8 than a #10 that you have to put Scholes first. There's so few players you watch and think "he'd do okay splitting with Eriksen" whereas guys like Kudus, Olmo and Eze would probably do fairly well here as our #10s. It's a positional scarcity thing.
and play him where? surely not centre midfield?
Gerrard's best position overlapped with Rooney more than Scholes
so it would be a bizarre decision
@Isafim now that you've been outed as a Liverpool fan in the Van Dijk thread, maybe try peddling your 'this is why Gerrard and Lampard were better than Scholes' tripe on RAWK instead.
Liverpool had to build a team around Gerrard to get the best out of him.
Scholes basically came through as a forward for united slotted in scored quite a bit. Ran a midfield with Keane where one sat the other went forward. Played as a 10 when veron and ruud came then at the end of his career dropped in to that deep playmaker role.
In every role he played he is unreal.
Peter Schmeichel once said he gauged the best players on how good they were on their worst days and scholes worst days were better than the rest
Scholes basically came through as a forward for united slotted in scored quite a bit. Ran a midfield with Keane where one sat the other went forward. Played as a 10 when veron and ruud came then at the end of his career dropped in to that deep playmaker role.
In every role he played he is unreal.
Peter Schmeichel once said he gauged the best players on how good they were on their worst days and scholes worst days were better than the rest
Exactly. Scholes was a better finisher than Gerrard, a better passer than Gerrard, and he was far better at reading the game. Ask any top team from the noughties which Liverpool midfielder they'd take and they'd all say Xabi Alonso. In that era I'd take Alonso on our bench. Gerrard wouldn't even make it into our first team squad.
I'll never say Gerrard was bad player he was very good. But would you have swapped Keane or scholes for prime gerrard never he struggled in two men midfields. When Keane went and we had carrick scholes Anderson etc he played basically as a 10 would you have swapped Rooney for him. Def not.
He played for a cup side if he was that desirable there would been alot more interest in signing him. Chelsea were in. Rumours Madrid were interested but make then if Madrid wanted a player they got them so hard to believe.
Ps Alonso was unreal. He would have started for us in front of carrick I think he had just a bit more than carrick
of course he would have, but Fergie would have played him in an attacking role mostly and sparingly in CM
see this is the issue with these debates
United fans compare Gerrard in Scholes best role, and Liverpool fans compare Scholes in Gerrard's best role
neither stack up that well when you compare them that way.. as both were world class in their best roles
we can argue until the cows come home everyone worldwide have their own opinions. At barcelona they are made to watch paul scholes videos and the amount of the greatest players of all time have said Paul scholes is unreal and I know its only opinions from them too but they are better placed to form and opinion than us.
Wonder where did Gerrard get his name as a "prolific midfield scorer"
If you take away penalties, Gerrard has the lowest goal per game ratio amongst the three players.
If you take away penalties, Gerrard has the lowest goal per game ratio amongst the three players.
If you took penalties from lampard how far would he fall? I think scholes only has 2 pens to his name
That Bruno goal tonight was … it was Lampardesque.
That’s nonsense, Chelsea almost signed Gerrard for a record fee in the mid 2000s. Then Benitez tried to sell Alonso because he didn’t rate him that highly. Alonso’s Liverpool days have been overrated because of what he did afterwards, he was brilliant for Real Madrid and very good at the end of his career for Bayern. When they were both at the club in that era, Gerrard was considered far superior to Alonso.
So because Benitez wanted to sell Alonso in 2008 that automatically means Gerrard was a better player than him at the time? Since when did one manager's actions become more credible than the opinion of any football fan? If we're using that logic, Gareth Barry was better than Carrick in 2012 because of who Roy Hodgson selected in his Euro 2012 squad.
Gerrard was twice in the Ballon d’Or top 3 in the 2000s I think - journalists. Won PFA Player of the Year - fellow pros. Won a few fan awards too. So it wasn’t just a manager, go back to the mid 2000s and Gerrard was clearly considered Liverpool’s best player in that time. I think Gerrard is overrated myself but let’s not get the hierarchy wrong, he was clearly Liverpool’s star player in the 2000s, only Torres in 2009 threatened that status.
Scholes got 3
https://www.transfermarkt.com/paul-scholes/elfmetertore/spieler/3397
Lampard got 60
https://www.transfermarkt.com/frank-lampard/elfmetertore/spieler/3163
Gerrard got 46
https://www.transfermarkt.com/steven-gerrard/elfmetertore/spieler/3109
Taking away penalties:
Scholes got 166 career goals in 784 appearances, 0.21 per game
Lampard got 243 career goals in 1021 appearances, 0.24 per game
Gerrard got 165 career goals in 863 appearances, 0.19 per game
Gerrard is stat padder generation #1
Scholes was easily the best. Among the greatest central midfielders I’ve seen. Then Gerrard who lacked finesse but had a complete skill set aside from that and could be a match winner. Finally Lampard who didn’t have anywhere near the natural talent of the other two but used his abilities superbly and had that goal scoring knack.
It's weird how Brazilians Italians french Spanish all value scholes higher.
Could you imagine him playing now and he wasn't allowed to be kicked and boot and have more time on the ball.
Could you imagine him playing now and he wasn't allowed to be kicked and boot and have more time on the ball.
In terms of goal scoring peaks, in his best season, Scholes has 20 non-penalty goals. Lampard's best mark is 17, while Gerrard is at 19.
Gerrard's brand has been grossly inflated to become "captain fabulous" "clutch player" by scoring one goal against olympiacos in UCL Group stage, one goal against Milan in UCL final and one goal against west ham in FA Cup final.
the above said 2 goals are the only 2 goals Gerrard scored for Liverpool in the 2005 UCL main campaign, and Gerrard only played 5 games and provided 1 goal and 1 assist in the knockout stage (including final) of campaign. But for some marketing reasons, people put all glory for Liverpool's 2005 UCL victory on Gerrard alone, even though Luis Garcia provided 5 goals and 1 assist in the knockout stage.
the above said 2 goals are the only 2 goals Gerrard scored for Liverpool in the 2005 UCL main campaign, and Gerrard only played 5 games and provided 1 goal and 1 assist in the knockout stage (including final) of campaign. But for some marketing reasons, people put all glory for Liverpool's 2005 UCL victory on Gerrard alone, even though Luis Garcia provided 5 goals and 1 assist in the knockout stage.
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If not mistaken all scholes goals in prem except for one pen vs West ham top complete a hattrick was in open play - I can remember another pen but think it was a cup.
Goalscoring wasn't even scholes best contribution. If it was possible to get a stat for the assist of an assist scholesys would scare ya
https://www.transfermarkt.com/paul-scholes/elfmetertore/spieler/3397
he scored 3
1 vs PSV in UCL
1 vs Real Madrid in UCL
1 vs West ham in PL for his hattrick
Talk as much as you like. The fact that I consider X Liverpool player superior to Y United player does not make me a Liverpool fan. I'm just not a mindless clubist. I try to analyze things as they are without my Man United fan side interfering with my assessment.
Whatever about the merits of each player, the ‘debate’ only exists because all three played for England and in any case it’s a phoney debate imo because it proceeds on the assumption that all three were centre midfielders.
And Scholes (for me at least) was the only one to fall into that bracket. Gerrard and Lampard weren’t proper centre midfield players, rather they were more like forward players who dropped deep to get on the ball and then into scoring positions.
And Scholes (for me at least) was the only one to fall into that bracket. Gerrard and Lampard weren’t proper centre midfield players, rather they were more like forward players who dropped deep to get on the ball and then into scoring positions.
Clearly Scholes, then Gerrard then Lampard. Even after accounting for Scholes’s poor tackling ability, overall he was more technically gifted and read the game vastly better than either.
But he was not imposing physical force of the other two, which resulted in Sven and others diminishing his role for the national team, which won nothing during the “golden generation” era.
But he was not imposing physical force of the other two, which resulted in Sven and others diminishing his role for the national team, which won nothing during the “golden generation” era.
Was there a deflection?
Scholes is the better manager, by far.
Don't look up his managerial record.
Don't look up his managerial record.
Ah, but you must remember only about 83 % of Lampards goals were deflections.
I think Lampard is a far better player than he gets credit for. He was far more creative than Gerrard. He also did have the energy and a good enough positional sense to play in a midfield 2 and still be successful whilst remaining an attacking threat. People forget about his 03/04 season.
Scholes is the best for me. Not because of his ability to dictate, but moreso for the fact that he was so versatile. A poster mentioned that Scholes wouldn't be as good in Gerrard's best position and vice versa, but the 2003 season says otherwise. Scholes was probably our best player that year. He was phenomenal as a no.10.
I don't struggle comparing Scholes and Gerrard because the difference is pretty clear in terms of control and consistency in Scholes' favor. However, Lampard is the harder question. His goals took prominence and his game wasn't too flashy, but he was really good at so many facets of the game, whilst being such a great goalscorer and creative outlet ( a part of him that's underrated). He was just as consistent as Scholes with more impactful moments.
You tried claiming you preferred Gerrard over Scholes because of his 'all round capabilities' which was bizarre enough for any non-Liverpool fan to say. But the mask slipped when you referenced Van Dijk getting man of the match in the champions league final vs Spurs and compared that to Vidic vs Barca in 2011 as if that was valid justification as to why you think Van Dijk was a better defender than Vidic. You're just another Liverpool fan on here who is too embarrassed to put Liverpool in the support field.
First of all I don't have to prove to you that I'm a Man United fan. Think what you want, I don't care.
Secondly, I didn't say just for the "all round capabilities". I also said by "peak performance". Something I hadn't said yet was the individual awards.
Do you really think Scholes would be better as an anchor player than Gerrard? Do you think Scholes was better than Gerrard as Box-to-Box? Do you think Scholes was better than Gerrard as CAM? It is in this sense that I said that Gerrard was the best for peak performance and all round capabilities.
I think Scholes was the superior passer and harder to take the ball off of. And while the other two did score more goals, I don't think the difference is actually that big (and may not even be an advantage for the other two at all to be honest). Scholes scored a good bit for the first decade or so of his career (until his role changed to be a bit deeper) and scored some really great goals, and he didn't get a boatload of penalty goals like Lampard and Gerrard did. So when you take out penalties, Scholes comes out right in line with those guys in scoring rate for his career, despite having played a deeper role for almost a decade at the end. Scholes was world class as a CAM (but I consider Gerrard superior in that role) and as more of a deep lying playmaker (in this role I consider Scholes the best). I think Scholes had better teammates generally, so wasn't seen as his team's talisman like the other two were (and, of course, the flipside of having better teammates is that Scholes won more).
For Gerrard vs. Lampard, I tend to go with Gerrard, but it's close IMO. Two things tip the balance for me. First is that Gerrard's passing range was better IMO. Second, Gerrard just came through in some big, dramatic moments. I tend to think that coming through in big moments is kind of random and lucky, but when there's not much between the two it's the type of thing that can swing the balance. Winning the Champions League in 2005 with Liverpool (against an incredible AC Milan team) was probably the most impressive achievement that any of these players have.
Another thing, I don't consider VvD better than Vidic in general. I just said that VvD had the best calendar year for a CB in this century. I expressly said that in the career there are many CBs ahead of VvD in this century. Another guy came and mentioned that Vidic was better in 2011 and it was in that context that I compared their UCL final. Besides, I didn't "just" compare the final. The fact that you are taking texts out of context and making ad-hominem attacks calling me a Liverpool fan instead of refuting my arguments just shows what kind of person you are and mainly that you have no arguments to prove me wrong.
Anyway I'm not interested in debating with anyone who does that sort of thing so I won't reply to you anymore even if you quote me.
Yeah, when you actually sit down and think about it, that penalty shootout win really blows Scholes' 11 Premier League titles out the water.
That final was 70% Milan giving up and thinking it was job done, 30% Liverpool fightback.
Still reckon it was match fixing to this day. Wasn't surprised when the calciopoli scandal emerged.
Would he feck!
That or they cracked open the champagne at half time. Neither would surprise me.