Scores die in Israeli air strikes

[Kaos]

Kanoute facing fine for showing Palestine T-shirt


MADRID, Spain (AP) - Sevilla striker Frederic Kanoute is facing a fine from the Spanish football federation for revealing a T-shirt expressing support for Palestine during a match.

Kanoute lifted his Sevilla shirt over his head after scoring in the team's 2-1 Copa del Rey win over Deportivo La Coruna on Wednesday to display a black T-shirt on which the word "Palestine" was printed in several languages.

Sevilla's Frederic Kanoute (left) shows a t-shirt in reference to the Israeli offensive in Gaza. (Jose Manuel Vidal / Associated Press)

The federation's Competition Committee is expected to study the incident on Friday.

Kanoute, who was born in France but plays internationally for Mali, is a practicing Muslim.

Kanoute's action, which has been interpreted as a response to Israel's recent attacks on Gaza that have killed nearly 700 people, was met with a yellow card from referee Antonio Mateu Lahoz.

Lahoz said in his post-match report that he'd cautioned Kanoute for raising his shirt over his head in accordance with federation rules, while also noting the message of the striker's T-shirt.

Raphael Schultz, Israel's ambassador in Madrid, told Radio Marca on Thursday that Kanoute's gesture "had gone beyond his profession and FIFA rules to this respect."

"I saw the match and the T-shirt bore nothing more than the name of Palestine. It was not an incitement against Israel. I don't think it extolled violence," Schultz said.

Meanwhile, Palestine embassy official Mahmoud Aluanen told the same station that Kanoute "has shown himself to be a very brave person to support our people at a public event."

"Sportsmen are human beings and cannot contain their feelings. They have all the right in the world to express their opinion about matters which contravene human rights. I'm sure that all Palestinian children, those who love football, will be happy about this gesture," Aluanen added.

The incident came a day before Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas paid a visit to Madrid for talks with Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero and King Juan Carlos.

 

[sammsky1]

This is just disgusting. My contempt for the people of Israel is rapidly reaching combustion point. How can this be allowed to go on in the world that we live in? These thugs continue to murder innocent people with impunity. It really is a sad state of affairs. Do they really think what they are doing is a sustainable strategy? At some point in the future, they will be given their payback.

Im just fuming and furious about this ... and can understand now how extremism is born. With rules so one sided, when you have lost everything you have worked for and loved, its the only way you have to fight back.

Have no idea what has been written on this thread as have not been tracking it but look forward to going through it and reading the various views.

UN suspends Gaza aid operations Thursday, 8 January 2009

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7818577.stm



The UN's suspension of aid operations followed an Israeli strike on a UN truck
The UN has said it is suspending aid operations in Gaza because its staff have been hit by Israeli attacks.

The suspension would continue "until the Israeli authorities can guarantee our safety and security", the UN said.

The international Red Cross has also accused Israel of failing to fulfil its duty to help wounded civilians in Gaza.

Meanwhile, the US, UK and France have dropped opposition to a UN resolution urging an immediate ceasefire, and Arab nations are studying a draft.

The US, UK and France had wanted a weaker statement, the BBC's Laura Trevelyan in New York says.

But Arab foreign ministers said anything less than a binding resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire would be an inadequate response to the crisis, our correspondent says.

If the Arab nations' response to the draft resolution is positive, a vote could happen later.

The draft calls for an immediate ceasefire, action to stop the smuggling of arms by Hamas across the Egypt-Gaza border and the opening of border crossings into Gaza so aid can be delivered.

'Great regret'

The UN's suspension of aid efforts came shortly after it said one person had been killed and two hurt when a fork-lift truck on a UN aid mission came under Israeli tank fire at Gaza's Erez crossing.

Our installations have been hit, our workers have been killed in spite of the fact that the Israeli authorities have the co-ordinates of our facilities

The UN's relief agency Unwra said it was "with great regret" that it had been forced to make a difficult decision.

"We have suspended our operations in Gaza until the Israeli authorities can guarantee our safety and security," said Unwra spokesman Chris Gunness.

"Our installations have been hit, our workers have been killed in spite of the fact that the Israeli authorities have the co-ordinates of our facilities and that all our movements are co-ordinated with the Israeli army."

The UN said the movements of the truck hit at the Erez crossing had been co-ordinated with Israel.

The Israeli army has not commented on that claim but has said it is looking into the matter.

The International Committee of the Red Cross said its staff had found four weak and scared children beside their mothers' bodies in houses hit by shelling in Zeitoun.

The Israeli military has not yet responded to the accusation, but said it worked closely with aid groups so that civilians could get assistance.

Meanwhile, Amnesty International accused both Israel and Hamas of using civilians as human shields.

Air strikes

The aid agencies' concerns come amid fears the conflict with Gaza militants may spread, with at least three rockets fired from Lebanon into northern Israel, prompting Israel to reply with artillery.

GAZA CRISIS BACKGROUND



Profile: Gaza Strip
Q&A: Gaza conflict
Who are Hamas?
Middle East conflict: History in maps
The incident followed the heaviest bombardment so far of Gaza in nearly two weeks of conflict, with 60 air strikes which Israel says targeted Hamas facilities.

Palestinian medical officials said at least 10 Gaza residents had been killed on Thursday.

More than 700 Palestinian and 11 Israeli lives are said to have been lost since the offensive began 13 days ago.

For a second day, Israel suspended its operation for three hours to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza.

Efforts have continued to broker a full ceasefire - a senior Israeli official is in Cairo to hear details of a plan put forward by Egypt and France.

A Hamas delegation is expected in the Egyptian capital at some stage for parallel "technical" talks, Egyptian diplomats said.




Language of Hamas
Gaza offensive - in maps
In pictures: Conflict continues
At least three Katyusha rockets were fired from southern Lebanon into the northern Israeli area of Nahariya early on Thursday.

One hit a nursing home, injuring at least two people.

Israel immediately responded with five artillery shells into Lebanon, calling it a "pinpoint response at the source of fire".

The rocket fire was condemned by Lebanon's prime minister.

The rocket attacks from Lebanon have raised concerns about a wider war in the region, says the BBC's Middle East Editor Jeremy Bowen.

Casualty claims in Gaza have been difficult to verify independently.

While the BBC's Palestinian producers have been reporting from Gaza, Israel allowed Western TV crews to enter only on Wednesday, embedded with its army.


Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7818577.stm

 

[holyland red]

As Britain has been at the forefront of wars which rightly or wrongly are killing Arabs/Islamists in Iraq and Afghanistan it is still a ludicrous position for HolylandRed to take.....Britain is pro Arab?

Iraqis are mostly killed by fellow Iraqis, which according to your logic make them pro-Israeli too.

If anything Israels actions and Britains (and USA) support or "soft criticism) puts lives of British troops in more danger.

^2

 

[holyland red]

Kanoute facing fine for showing Palestine T-shirt

Fair play to Kanoute, but what does all this have to do with the thread?

 

[holyland red]

This is just disgusting. My contempt for the people of Israel is rapidly reaching combustion point. How can this be allowed to go on in the world that we live in? These thugs continue to murder innocent people with impunity. It really is a sad state of affairs. Do they really think what they are doing is a sustainable strategy?

I reckon the mods should give you the extra heat you need for reaching full combustion.

 

[Kaos]

Fair play to Kanoute, but what does all this have to do with the thread?

I find it ridiculous that he was fined for it. I recall Ghanian west ham player john pantsil flashing an Israeli flag during the last world cup and not punished. I don't think either should be punished but it shows the sad double standards in this world.

 

[holyland red]

I find it ridiculous that he was fined for it. I recall Ghanian west ham player john pantsil flashing an Israeli flag during the last world cup and not punished. I don't think either should be punished but it shows the sad double standards in this world.

I don't see a difference between the two either. Mind you, it's nice to see the response of the Israeli ambassador to Kanoute's actions considering the hysterical response of many Arabs to John Pantsil's flag waving during the WC- he was accused of being a Mossad agent, believe it or not.

Not sure about the political double standards you're implying here though. I recall Fowler getting fined for a similar incident supporting a trade union or something.

 

[Sultan]

I have edited Sammsky's post.

I understand this is a very passionate subject for both sides, for this very reason I am not taking any action on this occasion. I urge posters to refrain from posting comments wishing to see any side wiped out.

 

[spinoza]

Press Positions? I doubt that. I admit to not reading a newspaper since before Christmas (we students get plenty of holidays) and my own chosen newspapers like the Guardian and Independent would be "liberal". But I dont know what editorial positions others are taking. I am sure David Aaronovitch and Melanie Phillips are still writing their columns.

Jesus Christ on a bike.

You admit to only reading 2 newspapers, and not since before Israel invaded, and you don't know what editorial positions other British newspapers are taking, much less what the French, Spanish, German or Eastern European press are saying.

How do you form an opinion on British press bias then? Stupidity and ignorance?

Mind you, that explains your "everyone should have nukes" fantasy pretty well...

 

[holyland red]

Hamas executes collaborators and restricts Fatah movement

By Amira Hass

Tags: gaza, israel news, israel

Since the aerial attack on Gaza began, Hamas has sought to suppress individuals it believes endanger the group's fight against Israel and its hold on power in the Strip, as well as public morale. Prime targets include Fatah members, people convicted or suspected of collaborating with Israel, and "common" criminals.

"Hamas rules with an iron fist even now," said one resident. A political activist who says he supports neither Hamas nor Fatah said that given the difficult conditions created by the ongoing shelling and ground invasion, Hamas is likely to try to prevent collaborators or those suspected to be from working with Israel.

Since the operation began on December 27, Hamas operatives have executed several people it classified as collaborators. Members of the group have confirmed the executions took place, and said the victims had admitted giving information to the Shin Bet security service that resulted in the deaths of Palestinians, or had already been sentenced to death by a Palestinian military court but the sentences were delayed for various reasons.

Independent sources said that among the dead were those not known publicly to have been collaborators, as well as others long suspected of cooperation with Israel, or those arrested and later released.

Estimates of the number of suspects executed range from 40 to 80, but amid the prevailing conditions shelling, fear of walking the streets and media blackouts it is virtually impossible to verify the numbers or identities of the dead.

Executions are carried out secretly. In Rafah, for example, at least some of the victims were killed in a caravan erected in the area formerly occupied by the Rafiah Yam settlement, and the victims' relatives were invited to take away the bodies.

Even in the current conditions, Hamas is continuing to arrest those it suspects of criminal activity or Fatah membership, many of whom were arrested on the eve of the IDF operation and fled detention when the shelling began. No one knows where the detained are being held.
Independent sources and those linked with Fatah say Hamas' common methods include confiscating cell-phones, beatings, house arrest and firing at a suspect's legs.

Fatah members say Hamas is following a policy dictated from its leadership and directed against Fatah as a whole. An official in the Hamas-run Interior Ministry told Haaretz that the steps were taken only against Fatah members who expressed "happiness" at the aerial attack and
even "distributed candy" in the streets as it began. An independent source corroborated Hamas' account.

Fatah officials said last Thursday that notifications were sent to organization members from the public security forces, under the direction of Hamas's Interior Minister Said Siyam, confining them to house arrest for 48 hours. Other Fatah members were ordered not to leave their homes from 7 P.M. until morning.

Hamas is also targeting common crime, promising the public that prices will not rise due to the closures of crossings into Gaza, nor will looting be allowed from stores that have been shelled.

 

[holyland red]

Jewish leaders in Rome today expressed outrage over a trades union proposal to "identify and boycott" Jewish-owned shops in the Italian capital amid fears of a resurgence of anti-Semitism linked to Israeli actions in Gaza, .

Jewish leaders said the proposal, put forward by Giancarlo Desiderati, leader of the Flaica-Uniti-Cub union, which represents 8,000 shop assistants in Rome, was reminiscent of the anti-Semitic racial laws adopted 70 years ago by the Fascist dictatorship of Benito Mussolini in imitation of Nazi Germany, under which only "Aryan" shops were allowed to trade.

Asked if he was aware of the comparison, Mr Desiderati said: "We know we will have everyone against us, but we cannot pass over in silence what is happening in Gaza".

He said his union had already urged its members to boycott Israeli products, and boycotting Jewish-owned or Jewish-run stores was a logical next step.

He said he and his supporters were drawing up a list of Jewish shops, "though it might be better to publish a list of streets in which a majority of the shops are Jewish and ask people to avoid those streets when shopping".

He added: "For 50 years we have been concerned for the Jews because of what they suffered in the Holocaust, but now it is time to be concerned for the Palestinians, who are the Jews of today".

Mr Desiderati later denied such a list of Jewish shops existed or would be drawn up, saying that he condemned "all forms of anti-Semitism by Right or Left". His union did, however, support a boycott of Israeli good because of Israel's use of "military means against a civilian population".

Piero Marazzo, head of the Lazio region, said that the idea of boycotting Jewish shops was "spine chilling". Riccardo Pacifici, head of the Jewish community in Rome said it was a "mad" idea which he did not believe had the backing of a majority in the union, let alone in Rome as a whole.

Gianni Alemanno, the right-wing Mayor of Rome, said he would visit Jewish owned shops in Rome together with Mr Pacifici as an act of solidarity.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5474090.ece
-------------------------------
Looks like the Jews are playing the anti-Semitism card again

 

[Kaos]

Jewish leaders in Rome today expressed outrage over a trades union proposal to "identify and boycott" Jewish-owned shops in the Italian capital amid fears of a resurgence of anti-Semitism linked to Israeli actions in Gaza, .

Jewish leaders said the proposal, put forward by Giancarlo Desiderati, leader of the Flaica-Uniti-Cub union, which represents 8,000 shop assistants in Rome, was reminiscent of the anti-Semitic racial laws adopted 70 years ago by the Fascist dictatorship of Benito Mussolini in imitation of Nazi Germany, under which only "Aryan" shops were allowed to trade.

Asked if he was aware of the comparison, Mr Desiderati said: "We know we will have everyone against us, but we cannot pass over in silence what is happening in Gaza".

He said his union had already urged its members to boycott Israeli products, and boycotting Jewish-owned or Jewish-run stores was a logical next step.

He said he and his supporters were drawing up a list of Jewish shops, "though it might be better to publish a list of streets in which a majority of the shops are Jewish and ask people to avoid those streets when shopping".

He added: "For 50 years we have been concerned for the Jews because of what they suffered in the Holocaust, but now it is time to be concerned for the Palestinians, who are the Jews of today".

Mr Desiderati later denied such a list of Jewish shops existed or would be drawn up, saying that he condemned "all forms of anti-Semitism by Right or Left". His union did, however, support a boycott of Israeli good because of Israel's use of "military means against a civilian population".

Piero Marazzo, head of the Lazio region, said that the idea of boycotting Jewish shops was "spine chilling". Riccardo Pacifici, head of the Jewish community in Rome said it was a "mad" idea which he did not believe had the backing of a majority in the union, let alone in Rome as a whole.

Gianni Alemanno, the right-wing Mayor of Rome, said he would visit Jewish owned shops in Rome together with Mr Pacifici as an act of solidarity.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5474090.ece
-------------------------------
Looks like the Jews are playing the anti-Semitism card again

To be fair this whole boycott idea is pretty silly and immature, its no better than Kristallnacht. Jewish businesses shouldnt be directly linked with the Israeli state. These trade union hypocrites would probably go home and open a nice can of Coke. Protesting is fine, but seeking to undermine businesses on the account of the faith of the management is absurd.

 

[topper]

Jesus Christ on a bike.

You admit to only reading 2 newspapers, and not since before Israel invaded, and you don't know what editorial positions other British newspapers are taking, much less what the French, Spanish, German or Eastern European press are saying.

How do you form an opinion on British press bias then? Stupidity and ignorance?

Mind you, that explains your "everyone should have nukes" fantasy pretty well...

I don´t often agree with you but by feck you really have got this pratt by the short and hairies

Congrats

 

[Mihajlovic]

Is it possible that if the Arabs did not attack Israel 1967 the WB would still be under Jordanian control? Did Israel try to get control over the WB between 1948 and 1967?

 

[Fitzjames]

Jesus Christ on a bike.

You admit to only reading 2 newspapers, and not since before Israel invaded, and you don't know what editorial positions other British newspapers are taking, much less what the French, Spanish, German or Eastern European press are saying.

How do you form an opinion on British press bias then? Stupidity and ignorance?

Mind you, that explains your "everyone should have nukes" fantasy pretty well...

I think that its logical to assume that the British press position is likely to be consistent. (that their pre Christmas position and post-Christmas position might actually be the same)
The Guardian and Independent are nuanced......ie their position would not be acceptable to partizans. As two modules on my Politics course were on British media (74% and 71% since you ask) I am possibly better qualified than most to have an academic view on the editorial stances of British newspapers. Dont you agree? Course you do.

As to my "everyone should have nukes" fantasy you are perhaps not familiar with contrarian rhetoric and the point that I was ACTUALLY making.

I will try to lower my expectations to accomodate you.

 

[McLovin]

Completely off-topic, but I have to ask: Did you agree with his reaction to being beaten by the Afghan mob? Just curious.

Let's just say I wouldn't have taken it the same way he did!

 

[Kaos]

Gaza victims' burns increase concern over phosphorus

Photographic evidence has emerged that proves that Israel has been using controversial white phosphorus shells during its offensive in Gaza, despite official denials by the Israel Defence Forces.

There is also evidence that the rounds have injured Palestinian civilians, causing severe burns. The use of white phosphorus against civilians is prohibited under international law.

The Times has identified stockpiles of white phosphorus (WP) shells from high-resolution images taken of Israel Defence Forces (IDF) artillery units on the Israeli-Gaza border this week. The pale blue 155mm rounds are clearly marked with the designation M825A1, an American-made WP munition. The shell is an improved version with a more limited dispersion of the phosphorus, which ignites on contact with oxygen, and is being used by the Israeli gunners to create a smoke screen on the ground.

The rounds, which explode into a shower of burning white streaks, were first identified by The Times at the weekend when they were fired over Gaza at the start of Israel's ground offensive. Artillery experts said that the Israeli troops would be in trouble if they were banned from using WP because it is the simplest way of creating smoke to protect them from enemy fire.

There were indications last night that Palestinian civilians have been injured by the bombs, which burn intensely. Hassan Khalass, a doctor at al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City, told The Times that he had been dealing with patients who he suspected had been burnt by white phosphorus. Muhammad Azayzeh, 28, an emergency medical technician in the city, said: “The burns are very unusual. They don't look like burns we have normally seen. They are third-level burns that we can't seem to control.”

Victims with embedded WP particles in their flesh have to have the affected areas flushed with water. Particles that cannot be removed with tweezers are covered with a saline-soaked dressing.

Nafez Abu Shaban, the head of the burns unit at al-Shifa hospital, said: “I am not familiar with phosphorus but many of the patients wounded in the past weeks have strange burns. They are very deep and not like burns we used to see.”

When The Times reported on Monday that the Israeli troops appeared to be firing WP shells to create a thick smoke camouflage for units advancing into Gaza, an IDF spokesman denied the use of phosphorus and said that Israel was using only the weapons that were allowed under international law.

Rows of the pale blue M825A1 WP shells were photographed on January 4 on the Israeli side of the Israel-Gaza border. Another picture showed the same munitions stacked up behind an Israeli self-propelled howitzer.

Confronted with the latest evidence, an IDF spokeswoman insisted that the M825A1 shell was not a WP type. “This is what we call a quiet shell - it is empty, it has no explosives and no white phosphorus. There is nothing inside it,” she said.

“We shoot it to mark the target before we launch a real shell. We launch two or three of the quiet shells which are empty so that the real shells will be accurate. It's not for killing people,” she said.

Asked what shell was being used to create the smokescreen effect seen so clearly on television images, she said: “We're using what other armies use and we're not using any weapons that are banned under international law.”

Neil Gibson, technical adviser to Jane's Missiles and Rockets, insisted that the M825A1 was a WP round. “The M825A1 is an improved model. The WP does not fill the shell but is impregnated into 116 felt wedges which, once dispersed [by a high-explosive charge], start to burn within four to five seconds. They then burn for five to ten minutes. The smoke screen produced is extremely effective,” he said.

The shell is not defined as an incendiary weapon by the Third Protocol to the Convention on Conventional Weapons because its principal use is to produce smoke to protect troops. However, Marc Galasco, of Human Rights Watch, said: “Recognising the significant incidental incendiary effect that white phosphorus creates, there is great concern that Israel is failing to take all feasible steps to avoid civilian loss of life and property by using WP in densely populated urban areas. This concern is amplified given the technique evidenced in media photographs of air-bursting WP projectiles at relatively low levels, seemingly to maximise its incendiary effect.”

He added, however, that Human Rights Watch had no evidence that Israel was using incendiaries as weapons.

British and American artillery units have stocks of white phosphorus munitions but they are banned as anti-personnel weapons. “These munitions are not unlawful as their purpose is to provide obscuration and not cause injury by burning,” a Ministry of Defence source said.

Mads Gilbert, a Norwegian war surgery specialist working in Gaza, told The Times that he had seen injuries believed to have resulted from Israel's use of a new “dense inert metal explosive” that caused “extreme explosions”. He said: “Those inside the perimeter of this weapon's power zone will be torn completely apart. We have seen numerous amputations that we suspect have been caused by this.”

 

[Chris H]

To be fair this whole boycott idea is pretty silly and immature, its no better than Kristallnacht.

Dude. Seriously. This thread already has enough hyperbole.

 

[WeWonItTwoTimes]

Do people seriously expect wars to be fought without civilians being killed? Too much time playing computer games I reckon.

Also let's not brand all these civilians as innocent, after all over half of them voted for Hamas, a terrorist organisation, to govern Gaza in the first place.

Not surprised to see the United Nations, various aid agencies, the liberal media, France and assorted caftards doing their best to prevent Israel from defending itself.

Well done.

 

[Plechazunga]

This is just disgusting. My contempt for the people of Israel is rapidly reaching combustion point. How can this be allowed to go on in the world that we live in? These thugs continue to murder innocent people with impunity. It really is a sad state of affairs. Do they really think what they are doing is a sustainable strategy? At some point in the future, they will be given their payback.

Im just fuming and furious about this ... and can understand now how extremism is born. With rules so one sided, when you have lost everything you have worked for and loved, its the only way you have to fight back.

Just out of interest, what temperature is your contempt for the people of Russia at? Because you know what their state did, a few short years ago, when faced with Muslim militants demanding their own state and launching terrorist attacks on Russian soil? They scorch-earthed the place, killing between one and two hundred thousand people.

Are you 'fuming and furious' about the probable four hundred thousand murdered in Darfur in the last five years alone, with at least two million displaced?

What about the ethnic cleansing in Tibet, with an unknown number killed? Does that register at all on the righteous anger metre? Sri Lanka? Kashmir? The Congo?

Or is it only Israel that gets Sammsky off the internet disgusted, fuming and furious, heats his rage at its people - not just government, not just army, but all Israelis - to 'combustion point' , and explains (justifies?) 'extremism'? And if so, is that because it's the only conflict with blanket news coverage featuring Robert Fisk's hand-wringing and Jeremy Bowen's vicarly mournfulness? Or is it for some other reason?

Also let's not brand all these civilians as innocent, after all over half of them voted for Hamas, a terrorist organisation, to govern Gaza in the first place.

Rubbish point. Voting for a political group - even a viciously racist one - doesn't make you a combatant. Do you advocate physical attacks on voters for extremist Israeli parties like Moledet?

 

[Kaos]

Dude. Seriously. This thread already has enough hyperbole.

I think you're confused: My stance was against the boycotting, I think its unfair blaming international Jews for the Israeli attacks.

 

[Kaos]

Do people seriously expect wars to be fought without civilians being killed? Too much time playing computer games I reckon.

Also let's not brand all these civilians as innocent, after all over half of them voted for Hamas, a terrorist organisation, to govern Gaza in the first place.

Not surprised to see the United Nations, various aid agencies, the liberal media, France and assorted caftards doing their best to prevent Israel from defending itself.

Well done.

You lot voted for Bush twice, does that make the US citizens not innocent and deserve 9/11?

What a silly statement - they fecking deserve this carnage because they democratically elected the organisation the US and Israel would rather they had not elected?

 

[WeWonItTwoTimes]

You lot voted for Bush twice, does that make the US citizens not innocent and deserve 9/11?

What a silly statement - they fecking deserve this carnage because they democratically elected the organisation the US and Israel would rather they had not elected?

They elected an organisation that stated in its charter that it was committed to the destruction of Israel. Not really that innocent after all, eh?

You could say they deserve everything they're getting.

 

[Kaos]

They elected an organisation that stated in its charter that it was committed to the destruction of Israel. Not really that innocent after all, eh?

Their recent charter accepts the state of Israel providing a Palestinian state is established.

You could say they deserve everything they're getting
.

I'm glad you accept the genocide of hundreds of innocent women and children. You'll then be claiming why everyone hates the west and the US in particular. fecktard.

 

[WeWonItTwoTimes]

Just out of interest, what temperature is your contempt for the people of Russia at? Because you know what their state did, a few short years ago, when faced with Muslim militants demanding their own state and launching terrorist attacks on Russian soil? They scorch-earthed the place, killing between one and two hundred thousand people.

Are you 'fuming and furious' about the probable four hundred thousand murdered in Darfur in the last five years alone, with at least two million displaced?

What about the ethnic cleansing in Tibet, with an unknown number killed? Does that register at all on the righteous anger metre? Sri Lanka? Kashmir? The Congo?

Or is it only Israel that gets Sammsky off the internet disgusted, fuming and furious, heats his rage at its people - not just government, not just army, but all Israelis - to 'combustion point' , and explains (justifies?) 'extremism'? And if so, is that because it's the only conflict with blanket news coverage featuring Robert Fisk's hand-wringing and Jeremy Bowen's vicarly mournfulness? Or is it for some other reason?



Rubbish point. Voting for a political group - even a viciously racist one - doesn't make you a combatant. Do you advocate physical attacks on voters for extremist Israeli parties like Moledet?

I never said they weren't civilians just that they weren't innocent bystanders.

 

[Plechazunga]

I never said they weren't civilians just that they weren't innocent bystanders.

Well, if you consider them 'not innocent', i.e. guilty, that implies you support some sort of punishment for them, a notion backed up by your notably unpleasant statement, 'You could say they deserve everything they're getting'. Do you support the killing or maiming of all people round the world that vote for extremists?

genocide of hundreds of innocent women and children

Christ there are some fools abroad in this thread. If Israel was committing genocide on the Palestinians, there'd be no Gaza. And there also probably wouldn't be an Arab on the Israeli supreme court.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Do people seriously expect wars to be fought without civilians being killed? Too much time playing computer games I reckon.

If civilians die or are injured on the fringes of an engagement or in a genuine accident [rare occurrances], it can be accepted in the cold light of day and from a distance as many of us are. However, there certainly appears to have been an unpalatable neglect or outright disregard at times for the surrounding population [the type of weaponary and or targets approved of]] which is IMO rightly condemned.

Of course this is not something that Israel alone has to its name, their immediate enemy Hamas treats it almost as policy. The US and Nato states in Afghanistan presently also, and so on and so forth.

Also let's not brand all these civilians as innocent, after all over half of them voted for Hamas, a terrorist organisation, to govern Gaza in the first place.

Sorry but that is a quite ridiculous statement. Are you saying that the 400,000+ voters of Hamas somehow...deserve what they get? Their families too eh? Vote and that's a bullseye on your chest or your house or your place fo work or your school?

Not surprised to see the United Nations, various aid agencies, the liberal media, France and assorted caftards doing their best to prevent Israel from defending itself.

Well done.

They are not wrong in the highlighting of the woes of the Palestinians, although there is yes fault on their part in how they ignore to the degree that many people do, the fear, torment and suffering of those Israelis living within the range of rocket attack and such.

 

[WeWonItTwoTimes]

Well, if you consider them 'not innocent', i.e. guilty, that implies you support some sort of punishment for them, a notion backed up by your notably unpleasant statement, 'You could say they deserve everything they're getting'. Do you support the killing or maiming of all people round the world that vote for extremists?



Christ there are some fools abroad in this thread. If Israel was committing genocide on the Palestinians, there'd be no Gaza. And there also probably wouldn't be an Arab on the Israeli supreme court.

No I don't support the killing or maiming of people that vote for extremists. I won't lose any sleep over it though when it does happen nor do I think such an event should be used as a way of preventing a country from taking the appropriate measures to defend itself.

 

[Chris H]

I'm glad you accept the genocide of hundreds of innocent women and children.

You get the Hyperbole Award for the day, two whoppers in one page of a thread. The bold-faced words are incompatible, unless you are talking about a pygmy tribe that only has, say, 500 people in it. But there were a few million Palestinians last time I checked. It's insulting to any victims of real genocide, real Kristallnacht, etc., and it's bullshit. But I'm sure within a page or two someone else will be describing the Israelis as "worse than the Nazis they escaped from" and that Palestinians live in "the real concentration camps".

 

[Chris H]

Or that there were "weapons of mass destruction in Iraq". This sort of thing helps no one.

 

[WeWonItTwoTimes]

Or that there were "weapons of mass destruction in Iraq". This sort of thing helps no one.

Every member of the United Nations Security Council at the time agreed that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. It remains a mystery as to why none were found.

 

[WeWonItTwoTimes]

We just abstained in the voting for the UN resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire.

Would have prefered us to veto the resolution but you can't have everything.

 

[dumbo]

WeWonItTwoTimes

Jeez Louis.

 

[Nucks]

Well, if you consider them 'not innocent', i.e. guilty, that implies you support some sort of punishment for them, a notion backed up by your notably unpleasant statement, 'You could say they deserve everything they're getting'. Do you support the killing or maiming of all people round the world that vote for extremists?



Christ there are some fools abroad in this thread. If Israel was committing genocide on the Palestinians, there'd be no Gaza. And there also probably wouldn't be an Arab on the Israeli supreme court.

I just don't think he knows what genocide or ethnic cleansing is, the way those words are bandied about by the media.

 

[sammsky1]

Just out of interest, what temperature is your contempt for the people of Russia at? Because you know what their state did, a few short years ago, when faced with Muslim militants demanding their own state and launching terrorist attacks on Russian soil? They scorch-earthed the place, killing between one and two hundred thousand people.

Are you 'fuming and furious' about the probable four hundred thousand murdered in Darfur in the last five years alone, with at least two million displaced?

What about the ethnic cleansing in Tibet, with an unknown number killed? Does that register at all on the righteous anger metre? Sri Lanka? Kashmir? The Congo?

Or is it only Israel that gets Sammsky off the internet disgusted, fuming and furious, heats his rage at its people - not just government, not just army, but all Israelis - to 'combustion point' , and explains (justifies?) 'extremism'? And if so, is that because it's the only conflict with blanket news coverage featuring Robert Fisk's hand-wringing and Jeremy Bowen's vicarly mournfulness? Or is it for some other reason?

Plechazunga, I always enjoy reading your posts, think you an intelligent and well read man and thank you for your considered response.


Let me just give you abit more clarification:

- Your comparison with Russia is not a fair comparison. Without teaching you to suck eggs, the circumstances are completely different. Israel, as we all know live on land that does not belong to them and has never belonged to them. They continue to live on it with impunity, flouting international law and UN resolutions. Indeed, not only do they live on land that they forcefully took but they also continue to take more. It seems many posters on this thread conveniently seem to forget this history.

- I went to Palestine 12 months ago ... if you saw what these people have to put up with, how they are forced to lives their lives, how they are subjugated by humiliation every day, how Isreal sneers with conceitedness about the fact that they live on another's man's land that they took by force .... you would understand that what is going on makes South Africa's apartheid. look like child's play.

The thing is we all know this, its nothing new and yet when Isreal latest outrage happens, all they and others are meant to do is 'move on', turn the other cheek, understand what Israel thinks. When will people understand that extremism is a REACTION. What Israel is doing now is nothing short of the worst kind of 'terrorism' that the west bands about with such ease these days. But then you know all of this. And yet somehow Israel's actions are those of Government and people like HAMAS are just a bunch of lawless thugs. The lack of understanding by so many on here is laughable.

- My outrage in this instance is Israel's blatant destruction and targeting of UN humanitarian aid that is being sent to alleviate the pain of defenceless Palestinians. It is the act of utter wickedness from a society of people who have lost any sense of humanity. And we all just sit by and watch, my own UK government pontificates with UN statements that 'should be milder' etc etc etc. Im not sure what is worse, that, or people who cant raise their own levels of apathy and not feel the 'combustion of anger' that I feel.

- Re your comments on Darfur, Tibet, The Congo etc etc etc, you chose the wrong guy here Plecth. Alot of the work that I do and that I've committed much of my life to is to promote understanding and try and solve these sorts of issues. Along with Palestine, I've been to Tibet, Sri lanka, Kashmir and done whatever a single voice can. But that is an aside.

All of it is outrageous. But what is even more outrageous is how the bully boy governments of this world cherry pick which problem to solve and which to let fester. Is it any coincidence that Israel is taking and getting away with these heinous actions in the last weeks of the current incumbent US president? I cant wait for the Middle East to run of of oil. Because it will the be fascinating to see how Israel justifies its existence.

I hope that gives you a small insight into my utter disgust for the people of Israel.

 

[sammsky1]

J

Jewish leaders in Rome today expressed outrage over a trades union proposal to "identify and boycott" Jewish-owned shops in the Italian capital amid fears of a resurgence of anti-Semitism linked to Israeli actions in Gaza, .
Jewish leaders said the proposal, put forward by Giancarlo Desiderati, leader of the Flaica-Uniti-Cub union, which represents 8,000 shop assistants in Rome, was reminiscent of the anti-Semitic racial laws adopted 70 years ago by the Fascist dictatorship of Benito Mussolini in imitation of Nazi Germany, under which only "Aryan" shops were allowed to trade.

Asked if he was aware of the comparison, Mr Desiderati said: "We know we will have everyone against us, but we cannot pass over in silence what is happening in Gaza".

He said his union had already urged its members to boycott Israeli products, and boycotting Jewish-owned or Jewish-run stores was a logical next step.

He said he and his supporters were drawing up a list of Jewish shops, "though it might be better to publish a list of streets in which a majority of the shops are Jewish and ask people to avoid those streets when shopping".

He added: "For 50 years we have been concerned for the Jews because of what they suffered in the Holocaust, but now it is time to be concerned for the Palestinians, who are the Jews of today".

Mr Desiderati later denied such a list of Jewish shops existed or would be drawn up, saying that he condemned "all forms of anti-Semitism by Right or Left". His union did, however, support a boycott of Israeli good because of Israel's use of "military means against a civilian population".

Piero Marazzo, head of the Lazio region, said that the idea of boycotting Jewish shops was "spine chilling". Riccardo Pacifici, head of the Jewish community in Rome said it was a "mad" idea which he did not believe had the backing of a majority in the union, let alone in Rome as a whole.

Gianni Alemanno, the right-wing Mayor of Rome, said he would visit Jewish owned shops in Rome together with Mr Pacifici as an act of solidarity.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5474090.ece
-------------------------------
Looks like the Jews are playing the anti-Semitism card again

Anti semitism my arse. That's the entire farce of this. The actions of Israel are outrageous right now. As outrageous as the Apartheid government in South Africa 40 years ago. They deserve condemnation. It has nothing to do with anti semitism. When will these eejits realize that they are hated not because of who they are but because of their actions and the way they behave.

Blubber blubber, poor old Roman Jewish businessmen - Suppose they could just bomb Rome as well to get their way. Complete utter nonsense. Pot Kettle Black. I hope every single one of them is driven to bankruptcy.

 

[sammsky1]

I reckon the mods should give you the extra heat you need for reaching full combustion.

its called freedom of expression, something Israel refuses the people whose land it resides in and subjugates with humiliation on a daily basis.

I have edited Sammsky's post.

I understand this is a very passionate subject for both sides, for this very reason I am not taking any action on this occasion. I urge posters to refrain from posting comments wishing to see any side wiped out.

sorry for over stepping the mark Sultan and thanks for understanding.

 

[Nistelrooy10]

This is just disgusting. My contempt for the people of Israel is rapidly reaching combustion point. How can this be allowed to go on in the world that we live in? These thugs continue to murder innocent people with impunity. It really is a sad state of affairs. Do they really think what they are doing is a sustainable strategy? At some point in the future, they will be given their payback.

.

I've been saying this, but our resident "experts" "know" otherwise.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

Do people seriously expect wars to be fought without civilians being killed? Too much time playing computer games I reckon.

Also let's not brand all these civilians as innocent, after all over half of them voted for Hamas, a terrorist organisation, to govern Gaza in the first place.

By that logic, you should be killed for voting for George Bush.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

Every member of the United Nations Security Council at the time agreed that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. It remains a mystery as to why none were found.

I guess Powell shouldn't have lied to them.

Do you read?