It's not just about assists though is it? Shaw can play football, but AWB, not so much.
Shaw is our best full back and best FB in Europe (edited)
- Thread starter Andycoleno9
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One of the major issues with our team lies in the title itself, when. . .
“Shaw is our best fullback”
Your team has a rather low ceiling. The way we’ve played post lockdown I actually think [& I really wasn’t a fan] Antonio Valencia of the LVG period would do well.
“Shaw is our best fullback”
Your team has a rather low ceiling. The way we’ve played post lockdown I actually think [& I really wasn’t a fan] Antonio Valencia of the LVG period would do well.
Yeah Shaw is very underrated footballer. His first touch is very good, dribbling, passing, heading is also good. Only thing he lacks is crossing or final passes. He is making good number of attacking runs too.
You're right. He has some similar qualities to Shaw, both have a great 1st touch and pretty good short passing. Valencia, Mata, and Herrera interlinking in LVG's first season was actually the last time we saw something cohesive from the right side.
What does playing football means exactly? Modern FBs are expected to be able to defend and then turn into the conventional winger who create ample chances for the team to score. Shaw does an average job in the former and a horrible job in the latter. He's worse then AWB on both counts
United's FBs are in a sad state. AWB is a superb defensive fullback that struggles on the creative side, Shaw stinks of average and is injury prone, Williams is young and Dalot, well, Dalot is barely a footballer. The defence in itself creates almost nothing attacking wise and when one consider that we play with 4 defensive defenders + a DM it is hardly a rock defensive wise either. I think its time for United to consider getting a GK, a fast CB and an attacking LB. Henderson might cover the GK role but I think we'll need to spend money on the latter two roles.
Ha ha, i wanted to tag you when i was writing this.
Did i said that? My point was that money should not be excluded from rating player.
You said we have to consider the wages and money spent, so when you do that surely Williams is better than Shaw for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post?
Also if you consider the money, James is a good signing as he contributed to 10+ goals and assists and was signed for just 15 million.
Next season if Tuanzebe puts half decent performance then we can rate him as our best CB too as he was from academy and earns so much less than Lindelof and Maguire.
Can we have answer now please, is Williams better than Shaw? We shouldn't ignore record breaking money for a teenager and also for a FB, also huge wages we paid him when he was 18 and also for his last contract.
That makes sense budget wise but we need to take in consideration performance wise as well. That's because we need a competitive side that can actually win trophies. This can't be done with on a shoestring budget.
In my opinion at this level you can only have 3 types of players
a- first team level players
b- players with the potential to be first team players who will give the first team players a run for their money
c- academy players who might get involved into the first team during injuries etc
Shaw is paid as a first team player but he's not that good.
I think you grossly underestimate Shaw. Barring a few games after injuries, he has been our most consistently good player the last two years. His positioning has vastly improved since the early days under Mourinho. One v one he is very good. Airially he is now only behind Maguire. Perhaps his biggest skill is playing out from the back, where he is our best player and the best we’ve had since Evra. And this is a highly important feature in a FB. Evra wasn’t much for ‘end product’, and struggled both in the air and 1v1 against quick wingers sometimes, but like an American footballer, he was instrumental in bringing our play from our danger zone to the oppositions danger zone with little risk. Shaw does that due to his ball controll, short passing, strength and quickness. He is not too shabby at combination play on the wing. In the opposition box he is quite useless so far.
One thing many people underestimate with Shaw, is the fact that his qualities is the reason Solskjær can allow Rashford to play like a pure forward most times, whereas AwB and others have the support of a RW with much more defensive duties. This will make Shaw look worse than he is at times, as he has to cover more ground, more runs, stand off more in attack, and in pressure play. But with a lesser LB, Rashford would not have had the season he’s had, scoring as much as our pure striker.
It means he has a football brain - he actually knows what he's doing. The difference between Shaw and Wan Bissaka is night and day really.
He’s not just our best Fullback but our best defender.
Shaw do create chances though. Not as much as your typical cross and inshallah full backs, but he creates far more than AWB who have had quite the fortune of having four of his converted.
Assists isn't what Shaw is all about though. In the build-up, he is better than most midfielders. His touch, his passing, his movement and his ability to retain possession even under huge pressure is invaluable for a fullback.
Good teams usually have good players in the middle, but the middle is also congested most times. Every team usually turns to the flanks to escape the middle and not many players are able to keep it moving on the flanks as well as Shaw does.
In attack too, his link up play is very good. He combines very well with the winger, and is comfortable lapping or coming inside with and without the ball. Not every part of the game is played in the box, so I struggle to understand the obsession with assists and goals for defenders.
When defending, Shaw is as good as most. Superb at the back post, very good heading, strong on the flanks, and quick recovery pace. I'd go as far to say as an all-round package he's the best in the league for fullbacks in that category.
He used to get a lot of injuries, but he's playing most games lately, and looks fitter too. His only drawback is a relatively lack of aerial crosses which I feel he should add more to his game, though our forwards aren't exactly famous for their heading.
He is not just our best defender, he is our best player.
Now you’ve gone too far as that is clearly Dan James, check yourself.
Shaw is excellent at building the play. He's very composed on the ball, great in tight spaces and a very good passer of the ball. I made a thread a few months back about him possibly playing as a CDM but it got laughed at, but I do think he'd be excellent in that role.
There's a reason why our play from the back has suddenly looked very dodgy since he's not been in the team. He and Maguire have been the consistency in our team over the good run we've had, and now he's missing we do notice the difference.
There's a reason why our play from the back has suddenly looked very dodgy since he's not been in the team. He and Maguire have been the consistency in our team over the good run we've had, and now he's missing we do notice the difference.
Well at least we are on same page, just exaggerating as much as possible.
Shame I thought someone would follow up with "Not just our best player, he is the best player in the league".
Yeah, Shaw has been very important in our build up play. He is very composed and picks right passes. Also he creates space for Rashford too with his runs, most importantly he doesn't lose possession easiy.
The thing with these kinds of threads is that they have a funny way of almost always coming back and biting back in the arse.
At one point earlier in the season, Williams was tipped to overtake shaw because of his energy and attacking intent. Suffice to say things clearly don't work that way.
Footballers are not machines and they will continue to fluctuate in their Form. IMO, shaw is a perfectly competent full back with fitness issues and he needs to be constantly pushed by competition and this is where I hope Williams continues to improve.
What shaw really is not is peak evra, as he was one of a kind player.
At one point earlier in the season, Williams was tipped to overtake shaw because of his energy and attacking intent. Suffice to say things clearly don't work that way.
Footballers are not machines and they will continue to fluctuate in their Form. IMO, shaw is a perfectly competent full back with fitness issues and he needs to be constantly pushed by competition and this is where I hope Williams continues to improve.
What shaw really is not is peak evra, as he was one of a kind player.
No, we should not ignore it. And no, Williams is not near Shaw because Shaw is far better football player with way better performances.
And money wise, 30 mil for him is bargain these days for fb of his qualities. So money invested plus performances plus in his case resale value= Shaw was very good buy. Can't say excellent because he had a lot of injury problems.
And because of reasons which i mentioned here i think that Maguire is waste of money. Not because i hate him or dislike him or something. My assessment of players is never based of subjective thinking. Is he English, Irish, young, old, from academy, likeable or prick etc... (for example i am Lindelof's and Martial's fan but when they have a bad game i am first who will say that. And i always repeated that Lindelof is not world class defender. Only that he is hugely underrated among fans and pundits)
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30 million today is not the same value as 30 million in 2014, it was record breaking deal at that time.
Amazing how for one player we have to consider world record fee and except player that suits the fee but for Shaw we shouldn't expect best LB in the world as that's how much we paid back then, or close to that money. Also he was barely fit for 4 seasons, so record breaking fee for a LB who had average performance and shit fitness record. And no, he doesnt have resale value, no one would pay 30 million for Shaw when his wages are insane which means only select few clubs can afford him and none of them would buy Shaw.
We paid top 5-6 fee for Lindelof too when he was signed, was he rated with the same expectation? Forget that expectation, with any reasonable expectation he is a poor CB.
Challenging Robertson
The lads been doing ok and has improved but I don't think he'll ever be elite. His final ball ain't challenging Robertson. He shits himself when he gets into the box for jaysus sake.
As said, defensive wise he doesn't impress me too much. He's certainly better at it then an attacking FB like lets say Roberto Carlos was. However he's nowhere near to the level of a defensive fullback which is ok if only he can be dangerous upfront. Unfortunately he isn't dangerous upfront at all. He plays safe and his crossing sucks. FBs these days need to produce assists. Shaw is horrible at that.
I don't understand the hype surrounding Shaw TBH.
No wonder he thinks Lindelof is so much better than Maguire. £30m vs £80m? Say no more!!
Lindelof can be sold this second for his buy fee. His agent (of course that he was maybe just full of shit) said that they had contact with Barca and Juve (i think). You underestimate Lindelof a lot.
And Shaw? If we put him on transfer list City, Arsenal or Chelsea would be all over him. City and Chelsea want Chilwell for 50mil. Is Shaw worse than him?
I don't really know why he doesn't impress you. When he has to defend, I usually feel quite secure knowing he's going to deal with the situation comfortably.
Lindelof vs Maguire is not even contest for me.
No, they won't be all over him. Chilwell is not better than Shaw but his wages are more reasonable for teams to pay good fee and also his fitness record is much better than Shaw.
So for a record breaking fee for a teenager and LB, was Shaw best LB in the league or his performance ever as good? I don't know why you want to apply different standards, I mean I sort of know the answer.
Well it's not a contest for everyone.Lindelof vs Maguire is not even contest for me.
I don't think he's that solid when defending and he contributes very little going forward. The days of FBs being filled by failed CBs are over. The FB had become one of the most difficult and demanding roles in football with FBs expected to defend, help the CB and take the job of the traditional winger as well. Shaw might be half decent when defending but he struggles big time when going forward. I think United need an attacking wingback on the left and a better CB then Lindelof is.
He quite obviously is, however he's never fit so that's of no help. This has been the case with his whole stay here.
You are a master of putting things out of context, i give you that.
And what is the answer? In Maguire's and James's case someone told me (which i found as big insult) that i am in anti British brigade. This is about English player so i am curious.
Master of putting things out of context? All I have asked is why are you not applying the same standards. You are master of dodging the question, I can give you that.You are a master of putting things out of context, i give you that.
And what is the answer? In Maguire's and James's case someone told me (which i found as big insult) that i am in anti British brigade. This is about English player so i am curious.
Dude, you are defending Shaw, why would anyone think of Anti British brigade?
So again same question, we broke record for a teenager and for a FB, was Shaw ever as good to justify breaking the transfer records? This is even ignoring the insane wages we offered him twice.
Shaw is probably the highest paid LB in the league, is he the best LB in the league? I'm sure except very few (like Marcelo, maybe Alaba) he earns wages that puts him in top 3-5 for FBs/LBs. So is Shaw top 3-5 FB or LB in the world?
Why are you not applying the same logic when you compare Shaw and Williams as one is from academy and earns very low wages compared to Shaw for whom we had to break records to sign and was never fit for 4 years.
But i do apply same logic. I said you two times. I put in context everything. Fee and performances and current value and influence in team and everything else. Based on everything he is a good buy.
So record breaking fee, insane wages, dubious fitness levels and when you add everything you somehow came up with good buy. OK.
Btw regarding resale value, just a week back Pep confirmed he wanted Maguire, so yeah if we put him for sale we will get most of the money back, they made bid of around 65 million last summer.
He confirmed also that he wanted Alexis too. But no buyers for him as i see.
If things work that way then great. Maguire plus Alexis (his fee was around 35mil) = 115mil plus wages.
Make it happen Ed
Yeah, it's same, nothing to do with record breaking wages for Sanchez which means no one can afford him.
At least we have something to back up that Maguire is wanted and that was said last week. All you have done is assume how City and other big teams will sign Shaw when there are 0 links even when Shaw had just 1 year left on contract. Whether you like it or not, players who stay fit are more valued by teams. Availability is one of the strongest attribute for players.
Edit: For others who might be taking this wrong way, I'm not shitting on Shaw, I'm a huge fan of him. I'm just checking if we can apply consistent logic in rating players.
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First thing in which we agree 100%. I even bolded that in my opening post.
If we believe to rumours (i am not fan of it but our conversation went in that way) Liverpool and Barca were interested in Shaw. So there is your link (i know, i know, it sounds very unlikely but those were rumours in newspapers so it must be true
).But you tell me now. If we put Shaw on transfer and put 35mil price tag, you really think that despite his wage, several clubs would not come for him?
If you believe Barca and Liverpool were interested (maybe because some rumor site mentioned it) then just wait for some time, I might just open a dummy website and post Maguire to Liverpool and Klopp saying "If Maguire is not signed, I will resign" article. Post any credible links I will give up, as simple as that.First thing in which we agree 100%. I even bolded that in my opening post.
If we believe to rumours (i am not fan of it but our conversation went in that way) Liverpool and Barca were interested in Shaw. So there is your link (i know, i know, it sounds very unlikely but those were rumours in newspapers so it must be true
But you tell me now. If we put Shaw on transfer and put 35mil price tag, you really think that despite his wage, several clubs would not come for him?
See I dont know who will pay 35 million. Shaw is our player, we have paid fee already and he is part of the team. So I like him and what he brings to the team. We have to be realistic here, Shaw is paid 190K per week (according to Athletic, Lauire Whitwell), so which team will match his wages?
People saying he's got 0 assists, I think he could have easily had atleast a couple of them after the restart.
Easily, he’s been involved in a goal or set up a clear cut chance that was missed at least once every match since the break.
Assists are meaningless, all that matters is we score. The fact his dangerous cross forced a defender to struggle with it leading to Ighalo scoring is just as valuable as Ighalo being directly on the end of it. One is statistically an assist and the other isn’t but all that matters is either way it’s a goal that is on the back of Shaw getting into a dangerous areas and putting in a difficult ball to deal with. Assist or not means jack shit.