Shaw is our best fullback and Lindelöf our best central defender. Ole not so amazing in the market as people think.
Although Bruno is bloody good.
Although Bruno is bloody good.
Shaw is our best full back and best FB in Europe (edited)
- Thread starter Andycoleno9
- Start date
Shaw's been so good in his last few games.
I've never understood the hatred towards him.
When I try to judge one of our players I ask myself if I can envisage him in our starting 11 in a season where we win the league. I think Shaw can manage that.
I've never understood the hatred towards him.
When I try to judge one of our players I ask myself if I can envisage him in our starting 11 in a season where we win the league. I think Shaw can manage that.
Probably our most improved player. He's obviously worked hard in the gym. Got himself in trim. Great attitude! A threat going forward. Best LB in the PL at present. Challenging Robertson imo!
The reason Shaw gets a lot of hate here is cuz he just seems average. Yet he is by far our best full back. That tells you all about the rest of them.
Yes and yes.
Ole is not amazing, but just good in the market.
5/5 signings are spot-on, just right relative to their roles, no?
Ignore their transfer money and look only at their contributions.
Buying quality full backs should be our number 1 priority. I would rather get a quality full back than Sancho.
Remember how Guardiola just kept buying them until he got it right. We should do the same.
Remember how Guardiola just kept buying them until he got it right. We should do the same.
He’s good defensively & pretty decent on the ball. AWB is great defensively but awful on the ball, so it depends on how you grade it as to who is better.
Which ones do you have in mind who are available and are upgrade on ours. And is in the age bracket which we go for?
AWB isnt great defensively. He is great 1 on 1. His positioning leaves a lot to be desired though and he is very awkward in possession, offers very little going forward.
Shaw is just a much better player cuz hes at least adequate at everything.
Luke Shaw is a "major doubt" for the West Ham game according to the MEN.
That's a shame.
That's a shame.
I Agree. However, seeing the last two or three games, AWB can't properly tackle as well...
I've been a fan on his since he first came - for one primary reason - technically he's excellent. When he plays the team tends to be better, and that's been the case since his first season.
He's one issue though that has held him back - his injuries. Full backs are required to drive forward, to twist and turn, and a lot of his injuries come from running at full pace. He may be unlucky but I think it's partly to do with how bulky/muscle-y he is.
He's one issue though that has held him back - his injuries. Full backs are required to drive forward, to twist and turn, and a lot of his injuries come from running at full pace. He may be unlucky but I think it's partly to do with how bulky/muscle-y he is.
Shaw is our most consistent defender. The stick he gets is undeserved and absurd.
5/5? Maguire is debatable, but I dont think many would agree James is a "spot-on" signing.
About ignoring the transfer money and just look at the contributions is nonsense. Of course the transfer money has everything to do with it, if we take out the money from the Alexis deal it would be a regular signing. The signings, not the players, should be judged accordingly.
Like how you didn't notice the best defensive rightback in football to drill home your point.
Is he feck, Lindelof's the most passive CB in history.
Isn't he more amazing for having improved those players to become better than 50 and 80m players then? Isn't that saying the exact same thing, with different words?
Thank you. I am fighting this battle for years now. Alexis is fantastic example. You have people here who defend players how fee was not their fault and then bash Alexis because of it.
Exactly, it seems we have two sticks to meassure. One for Alexis who should be an excelent players because his contract and a completely different one for Maguire who can be average because being the top transfer for a defender isnt his fault.
Wasn't aware Pep got them right yet
I agree. Includes Lindelöf there casually in the Shaw thread. Lindelöf is average as it comes. He may be our second best CB overall, but that is not really difficult if your competition is Jones, Bailly and Tuanzebe. Just by staying fit he is almost the second best
Lindelöf has no standout features, he is ok in most and garbage in some other departments.1.James
I never understood that. Do people expect James to be our starter or he's a top winger or something?
Isn't it obvious he is too limited even before joining us?
What he did is just as expected as does the inconsistencies, it's within minimal expectation.
He exceeded expectations of many after the first 4 games so maybe afterwards people have ridiculous high expectations of him. He is spot-on improving our squad depth (who else can do better than him other than Rash, Mart, Green? Chong/Mata? no way) plus consistent with the style of play and identity we're implementing -- pace, youth and work ethics. Brought to be a squad player and remain that way (unless Ole seriously thinks he is good enough to be starter?! which would says a lot about Ole's eye for talents).
2. Signings?
Is "signings" different than "players"?
Do you mean that Signing = players + transfer money + salary?
Therein lies the problems, letting transfer money affected your expectations. Higher money usually meant higher expectations, usually ridiculous nonsense over-the-top expectations. Surely inflation and selling club value should be considered.
For every players, it's better to look at their talents and their contributions, in relation to what they should be capable of consistent with expected roles we're assigning them.
Transfer money doesn't always reflects their "type of signing" eg. is he a top player, elite player, key player or starter or squad player or back-ups, etc.
I trust you know all those types are different.
So isn't it more reasonable to rely on (a) their contributions and (b) relative between roles : talents, rather than bringing (c) relative between transfer money : expectations into this.
3. Sanchez - isn't he free?
Not sure why you're bringing Sanchez into this which helps my points even further since he's free (c) though costly salary.
Eg. Sanchez should be a starter and key player (b) but he failed to lived up to it with his overall terrible performances (c), therefore he is a shit signing.
Similarly the case of Zlatan -- free yet fulfilled every expectations.
4. 5/5 At least within minimal expectations, only one exceeded... unless many people really thinks 'Maguire is a top elite CB' which is a joke to think that way, sorry.
AWB -- starter, not top/elite, just promising, fits our identity. Overall performed fine all season long. Defensive record. Checked.
DJ -- squad player, fits our style and identity. Performed fine in one-half of this season. Checked.
Mag -- starter, not top/elite, fits our identity and style of play. Improved our team and performed fine all season long. Also had the defensive record as proof. Checked. (the captain thing is ludicrous and ridiculous)
Ighalo -- back-up to Martial, squad player, gave it his all, got that amazing scoring record. Checked.
Bruno -- no comment. Too obvious but I don't think it's obvious he is a top/elite talent when we got him (we're the only one after delaying the transfer and Spurs who gave up quickly that are interested in him). Easy to have hindsight is 20/20 right now. Either way, Checked but he does exceeded expectations. HS 20/20 if you disagree.
Isn't there clear huge differences between transfer fees and wages/salary+bonuses..
Players + their agents (and generousity of buying/current clubs) affected the latter.
Selling clubs (at times also agents and sometimes buying clubs) affected the former.
Players are only paid what the paying club is willing to pay.
Long post so I´ll answer in parts.
I agree we wasnt bringed to be a starter but to be a squad player, but not just a squad player a USEFULL squad player. Anyone can be a squad player, just throw around a body and thats it. To be a usefull squad player you need to challenge for the starting spot, push the starting player to be better than you to keep on starting.
Letting transfer money affect my expectations? what the hell is that supposed to mean. Of course money affect expectations. If you pay 80M for a player you expect worldclass performances, if you pay 10M you dont expect the same. Of course every player is bringed to fulfill a certain role, and the expectation goes according to it as the transfer fee. You cant say hey we paid "starting XI" money for a player that end up being a good squad player and say thats a good transfer. Money affects expectations.
I agree, Bruno has been a superb signing no complains at all exceed expectations and was a cheap transfer against what we got. AWB solid, Ighalo good, Maguire not worth the fee and James for me is a failure. Still getting 3.5/5 is a pretty good record. I just wouldnt take it as far as say 5/5.
Its not enough to say he was limited before we signed him so its ok for him to continue the same and conclude on him being a good signing because of that. If we applied that logic then any player is a good signing since of course there would be some signs of the deffects he has in a previous team so its only natural it will happen the same here therefore a good signing.
I agree we wasnt bringed to be a starter but to be a squad player, but not just a squad player a USEFULL squad player. Anyone can be a squad player, just throw around a body and thats it. To be a usefull squad player you need to challenge for the starting spot, push the starting player to be better than you to keep on starting.
Signings is different than players, you can judge a good or bad player and its not neccesarily a good or bad transfer. We are judging the transfer here, not if the player is good or not, for example Maguire, is he a good player? yes he is. Is he worth a 80M transfer? no he's not. Thats a good player in a bad transfer, overpaying for a good player makes it a bad transfer eventhough the team gets a good player.
Letting transfer money affect my expectations? what the hell is that supposed to mean. Of course money affect expectations. If you pay 80M for a player you expect worldclass performances, if you pay 10M you dont expect the same. Of course every player is bringed to fulfill a certain role, and the expectation goes according to it as the transfer fee. You cant say hey we paid "starting XI" money for a player that end up being a good squad player and say thats a good transfer. Money affects expectations.
Sanchez wasnt free, he was a swapt with Mhykitaryan. Eventhough it was an advantage for us when we made the swap since Sanchez was more valuable at the time, he wasnt free. Sanchez deal is affected by expectations made by his salary (money) again, he's the top paid player so you expect him to be a top player. If he was earning peanuts, no matter who he was the expectation would be different.
James fitting our style and identity? what the hell does that mean? I dont think James comes to mind when asking someone about a player that exemplifies the characteristics of a ManUtd player. He's bang average, that doesnt fit our style nor identity at all, no matter how hard working nice lad he is. Our identity is/was of a winning team he doesnt fit at all. Also mentioning he's had a fine "half season" and marking him as checked? just says a lot about how low your bar is to judge signings.
I agree, Bruno has been a superb signing no complains at all exceed expectations and was a cheap transfer against what we got. AWB solid, Ighalo good, Maguire not worth the fee and James for me is a failure. Still getting 3.5/5 is a pretty good record. I just wouldnt take it as far as say 5/5.
I don't think that Lindelof has improved, and neither Shaw for that matter.
With regard to improvement, Ole should get credit for Martial and Rashford though.
He’s been our only real full back since Fergie left until AWB arrived. Mad for a club of our size to neglect such an important position in the team and keep playing young and Valencia who were wingers that were clearly past it.
Lindelöf FC brewing by a few now
This is clearly not even a debate.
Chelsea's 1st goal, Williams failed to cover the hole and allowed a free run to make the cross. So back to your question - what if we had Shaw that night, and what if Bailly did not get injured.
Had we stayed with Bailly in back 3, Bailly (or Lindelof on the left?) would have covered that hole, so responsibility to Williams would have been lesser. If we had Shaw as left back after switching to back 4, Shaw would not have made such mistake, hence avoiding the cross in the 1st place. It was multiple error/mis-hap on 1st goal, and Shaw would have helped.
Had we stayed with Bailly in back 3, Bailly (or Lindelof on the left?) would have covered that hole, so responsibility to Williams would have been lesser. If we had Shaw as left back after switching to back 4, Shaw would not have made such mistake, hence avoiding the cross in the 1st place. It was multiple error/mis-hap on 1st goal, and Shaw would have helped.
Non defending central defender.
AWB is clearly the better player
His defensive skills is meah while his attacking skills are non existent. He produced 0 assists this year as compared to DEFENSIVE full back Wan Bissaka who produced 4.
Agreed.He can improve his output in the final third,and he still has an infuriating tendency to switch off defensively at times,but all in all,he’s still the best full back at the club.I honestly found it laughable when people felt that Williams was a better option than Shaw...
No difference there. If fee is not player's fault then his wage should not be also. It is not his fault if his market value is 100k, 200k or 10k per week, right?
Why is Di maria flop then? He had better season than James for example.
Ighalo? We all think that Ighalo is good transfer. But what if he was payed lets say 30mil? Would his current stats be enough?
Money payed=expectations
With that logic Williams is better than Shaw?
Free as he is from academy, paid probably 10 to 20 times less than Shaw. Shaw was record breaking deal for a teenager and IIRC he was record breaking deal for a FB too. He got huge contract when he was 18 and then he got huge pay rise too.
Likewise our best players are Rashford, McTominay, Williams, Greenwood.
Luke Shaw has been criminally underrated and scrutinized most of the time. He's a bloody good LB and yes probably our best full back. I hope he is back in the team soon.
He’s definitely better this year, but zero assists doesn’t sound great. I’m surprised as he does take up good positions and has been coming inside a lot and creating an extra option when we have the ball. In that sense I think he is good on the ball, certainly better than AWB, but doesn’t seem to be the one playing the final ball.
Does anyone have crossing attempts vs AWB?
Does anyone have crossing attempts vs AWB?
False 5.