Should the women's game have smaller stuff in it?

LoneStar

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Ive coached a lot of girls and womens teams over the years and these threads pop up from time to time. The big problem is its men talking about what they think women should do. Its their version of the game. Men watch the womans game expecting it to be just like the mens game and when it isnt they want to change it. In all my years coaching I have never heard any of the girls or women I coached ask for any changes, they are happy playing it the way it is.
Bottom line, stop putting male expectations of the game onto the womans game. Let them have their version of the game, if you dont like it dont watch. If you can get your head around the fact it looks and plays differently then you have a chance of enjoying it for what it is.
A rare case when a poster can answer just through his/her tagline. You must have been waiting for this question all along :lol:
 

P-Nut

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FFS. Its a completely different issue to women commentators.

The game is growing very quickly so dont try and spin that bullshit about it not growing as quickly as a lot would like. Seriously??
Why is it a different issue, to female commentators. Lots of people believe they shouldn't be allowed to express their views on men's football (wrongly may I add) due to women's football being a different game to men's football.

Now you're stating a man can't have a view on women's football because that's a totally different game. How about explaining why the sport is different to the athletics and over sports he's mentioned, and doesn't need to adjust for women, rather than stating that if you don't like it piss off basically.
 

Bullhitter

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Ive coached a lot of girls and womens teams over the years and these threads pop up from time to time. The big problem is its men talking about what they think women should do. Its their version of the game. Men watch the womans game expecting it to be just like the mens game and when it isnt they want to change it. In all my years coaching I have never heard any of the girls or women I coached ask for any changes, they are happy playing it the way it is.
Bottom line, stop putting male expectations of the game onto the womans game. Let them have their version of the game, if you dont like it dont watch. If you can get your head around the fact it looks and plays differently then you have a chance of enjoying it for what it is.
Pretty much spot on.
 

SER19

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Does rugby have any different rules for men and women? I can't think of any.
Youre right im sure i read somewhere the ball is different weight and size but doesn't seem to be the case.
 

diarm

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Youre right im sure i read somewhere the ball is different weight and size but doesn't seem to be the case.
Sorry for the completely irrelevant input! I just read it and wondered if there were!
 

Stack

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A rare case when a poster can answer just through his/her tagline. You must have been waiting for this question all along :lol:
hahaha. I wish I had kept my mouth shut.
 

NoLogo

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Ive coached a lot of girls and womens teams over the years and these threads pop up from time to time. The big problem is its men talking about what they think women should do. Its their version of the game. Men watch the womans game expecting it to be just like the mens game and when it isnt they want to change it. In all my years coaching I have never heard any of the girls or women I coached ask for any changes, they are happy playing it the way it is.
Bottom line, stop putting male expectations of the game onto the womans game. Let them have their version of the game, if you dont like it dont watch. If you can get your head around the fact it looks and plays differently then you have a chance of enjoying it for what it is.
Bravo well said.

/thread.
 

Chesterlestreet

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Also I think the size of the women playing will get bigger.
I've said this before.

At the moment the pool they have to choose from is very small compared to men's football (which is the most popular sport in the world).

The average male goal keeper is much taller than both the average footballer and the average adult male as such. You need a fairly large pool before you can start producing 6' 4" keepers for the top level with ease.
 

CG1010

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Ball and goal size would be easy, if there is a demand for it. Size of the pitch would be trickier, considering they're using infrastructure for the men's game pretty much across the board.

Is the ball itself that much of a problem? Even at youth level, we always used a standard size 5 ball. Rarely ever saw a size 4. They were a bit heavier in the 90s too. They're very light these days. When watching women's football, I doesn't look like they struggle with the size or weight of the ball. The size of the goal certainly is glaringly obvious though. And for some reason, despite outfield players in the womens game continually getting better, goalkeeping still seems to be a major area for improvement.
Why would it be? You can use how cricket uses ropes to draw boundaries and learn to customise the size of the pitch. Or like Tennis has two lines for singles and doubles matches, have two lines one to be used for men and another to be used for women football.
 

SER19

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Bravo well said.

/thread.
How can it be when a female coach who just coached a team in the Champions lesgue final is one of the loudest voices calling for the change and conversation. Among the countless other female professionals doing the same? The defensiveness to any male opinion on the game might have some justifications due to some out there but its a completely valid point to raise for conversation whether you're man woman or dog and absolutely isn't based in 'ignorance' or the imposition of any male standard on the female game.

Again, i also resent the lazy mocking of the women's game but this reactionary sensitivity isn't helpful, its a totally fair question and thread
 

NoLogo

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How can it be when a female coach who just coached a team in the Champions lesgue final is one of the loudest voices calling for the change and conversation. Among the countless other female professionals doing the same? The defensiveness to any male opinion on the game might have some justifications due to some out there but its a completely valid point to raise for conversation whether you're man woman or dog and absolutely isn't based in 'ignorance' or the imposition of any male standard on the female game.

Again, i also resent the lazy mocking of the women's game but this reactionary sensitivity isn't helpful, its a totally fair question and thread
Considering that this board is about 98% male I would say it's the wrong place to talk about it. And no male voices shouldn't be heard at all in this discussion, not even of a pro coach. If women want that and make their voices heard about it than the officials should listen to them.

But let me ask differently, what do you think you have to contribute to the topic and why should your voice be heard in the matter?
 

GoranIvanisevic

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Ive coached a lot of girls and womens teams over the years and these threads pop up from time to time. The big problem is its men talking about what they think women should do. Its their version of the game. Men watch the womans game expecting it to be just like the mens game and when it isnt they want to change it. In all my years coaching I have never heard any of the girls or women I coached ask for any changes, they are happy playing it the way it is.
Bottom line, stop putting male expectations of the game onto the womans game. Let them have their version of the game, if you dont like it dont watch. If you can get your head around the fact it looks and plays differently then you have a chance of enjoying it for what it is.
I agree its different, which is why I think that women should decide what is going on in it.

If women decide to have square goalposts they should be able to
 

AaronRedDevil

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So not only am I below average in life. I'm not below average in height. Story of my fecking life.
 

SER19

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Considering that this board is about 98% male I would say it's the wrong place to talk about it. And no male voices shouldn't be heard at all in this discussion, not even of a pro coach. If women want that and make their voices heard about it than the officials should listen to them.

But let me ask differently, what do you think you have to contribute to the topic and why should your voice be heard in the matter?
:lol: its a football forum! With a forum for women's football! My or anybody else's opinion won't mean shit but it doesn't mean the OP can't raise a discussion because of his bloody gender you madman. My point is that he's literally raising the exact same conversation COUNTLESS professional women are asking for, but just because he's a man you think it shouldn't be relevant. What about male coaches in the female game?

I honestly can't see the point you're trying to make unless its this: men shouldn't discuss female football unless its regarding a list of pre approved topics.

Mental. You're playing the 'listen to the women' role alright, but shutting down men who are doing exactly that by having the discussion some women want.
 

Stack

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How can it be when a female coach who just coached a team in the Champions lesgue final is one of the loudest voices calling for the change and conversation. Among the countless other female professionals doing the same? The defensiveness to any male opinion on the game might have some justifications due to some out there but its a completely valid point to raise for conversation whether you're man woman or dog and absolutely isn't based in 'ignorance' or the imposition of any male standard on the female game.

Again, i also resent the lazy mocking of the women's game but this reactionary sensitivity isn't helpful, its a totally fair question and thread
Sorry but overstating the size of something doesnt help. Countless other female professionals? I may have missed it but I havent seen a huge outcry from a large number of players and coaches on this. Countless female professionals indicates there might be some sort of major debate being held currently?
I get your point about defensiveness to any male opinion and thats fair. The OP did ask a fair and reasonable question without being sexist with it, he was simply wondering if these were helpful ideas. I did over react to that and I shouldnt have.

Look up Hope Solos comments on the matter, she is arguably one of the greatest female goalkeepers of all time.
 

SER19

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Sorry but overstating the size of something doesnt help. Countless other female professionals? I may have missed it but I havent seen a huge outcry from a large number of players and coaches on this. Countless female professionals indicates there might be some sort of major debate being held currently?
I get your point about defensiveness to any male opinion and thats fair. The OP did ask a fair and reasonable question without being sexist with it, he was simply wondering if these were helpful ideas. I did over react to that and I shouldnt have.

Look up Hope Solos comments on the matter, she is arguably one of the greatest female goalkeepers of all time.
Look at NoLogos comments to me. This type of defensiveness and borderline aggression to a discussion that's not even remotely sexist is bizarre. Truly bizarre. As i said there's plenty of legitimate reason for defensiveness regarding the women's game, particularly online, but this is next level hypersensitivity. As somebody who seems to have a vested interest in the women's game its not something you should have to police but certainly an awareness that any critical voice doesn't come from a place of sexism or ignorance would be welcome. When emma hayes raised this a while back it sparked a big discussion within women's game.
 
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Look at NoLogos comments to me. This type of defensiveness and borderline aggression to a discussion that's not even remotely sexist is bizarre. Truly bizarre. As i said there's plenty of legitimate reason for defensiveness regarding the women's game, particularly online, but this is next level hypersensitivity. As somebody who seems to have a vested interest in the women's game its not something you should have to police but certainly an awareness that any critical voice doesn't come from a place of sexism or ignorance would be welcome. When emma hayes raised this a while back it sparked a big discussion within women's game.
You've simply fallen victim to the ugly side of identity politics, imo. It's textbook to try and shut down a reasonable debate with inflammatory accusations (sexism in this case) whilst exhibiting precisely such behaviour, all the while believing yourself to be a champion of inclusivity and equality.

I find it genuinely astounding that a person can be so oblivious to their own hypocrisy.
 

SER19

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You've simply fallen victim to the ugly side of identity politics, imo. It's textbook to try and shut down a reasonable debate with inflammatory accusations (sexism in this case) whilst exhibiting precisely such behaviour, all the while believing yourself to be a champion of inclusivity and equality.

I find it genuinely astounding that a person can be so oblivious to their own hypocrisy.
Certainly what it feels like and yet another discussion about female football ends up in this ugly territory.
 

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The goals seem a bit big, but I think moving goal posts is generally frowned upon.
 

The Oracle

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Women's football has made giant strides over the past few years - namely with it's popularity.

Reducing the size of the goals would directly lead to less goals being scored; which would ultimately result in a reduction of the 'entertainment factor'.

Less goals being scored would be a step backwards for the women's game.
 

Kasper

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Is it me or does this sound like nonsense? I know nutrition was bad back then, but 5’3’’ as an average??
So we should make the men's ball, goals and pitches bigger seeing as people are no longer hobbits?

If everyone was so small back then, why would the goals be so big. Surely they must have increased at some point or it just would have been top bins all day back in the old days?


The FA introduced a tape that connects both posts at the height of 8ft (which it still is today) in 1863 with a crossbar alternatively added in 1873. So your average player if going by the graph above in his twenties/thirties was indeed around 5'3-5'5".

As for the bolded, of course you`d see goals you wouldn`t most likely see today anymore in those days but I`d argue its just one of many things that has changed over time. Pitch quality, shoe quality, football quality - all that stuff, next to human physiology, has improved massively over the last 150 years. The time it takes to pass along the whole pitch just with hard short flat passes has probably halved on average with all these changes - yet there hasn`t really been a demand to make pitches, goals or whatever way bigger.
So I don`t really see the point in making adaptations for the womens game - unless one would like to see adaptions every 30-50 years on various things depending on above mentioned developments.
 

SAFMUTD

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I get the logic about the OP, but I dont think that would solve anything. The issue is that the woman sports lack audience and thats because the quality is no where near the mans level. Changing the rules or whatever is not going to change that fact. I remember reading some news about the USA woman team, the world cup winners at the time, being beated against a U-15 team and they lose by 3 or more goals if I remember correctly.

I mean what does that says about the difference between levels, that some 14 year olds can beat the women world cup winners, just imagine how far the levels are. Its ridiculous women PRO football is not even semipro mans level, thats a hard truth. There are industries designed for man and women, sports specially team sports will always favour man due to the phyisical advantages. Just as things like modeling will always be better for woman.

Reality is no matter what anybody does the gap between quality wont change, hence the audience will never be equal.
 

Stack

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Look at NoLogos comments to me. This type of defensiveness and borderline aggression to a discussion that's not even remotely sexist is bizarre. Truly bizarre. As i said there's plenty of legitimate reason for defensiveness regarding the women's game, particularly online, but this is next level hypersensitivity. As somebody who seems to have a vested interest in the women's game its not something you should have to police but certainly an awareness that any critical voice doesn't come from a place of sexism or ignorance would be welcome. When emma hayes raised this a while back it sparked a big discussion within women's game.
You have mentioned Emma Hayes but you havent addressed the whole "countless female professionals" thing. This big debate you mention, was it surrounding her comments at the time or is it a larger debate going on currently?

Jill Ellis the former US womens team coach disagrees with the need to change the size of the goal.
Former England goalkeeper Siobhan Chamberlain said "the idea of making goals smaller for women is ridiculous"
Hope Solo former US goalkeeper very strongly disagrees with making the goals smaller.
Hope Powell former England manager doesnt agree with the goals being made smaller
Crystal Dunn and Abby Dahlkemper, US womens team defenders disagreed with Emma Hayes. Dunn used to play for Hayes.
Welsh midfielder Jess Fishlock disagrees
Karen Bardsley who played 81 games for England disagrees.
Fara Williams, Lucy Bronze and Bex Smith disagreed with the idea.
Carly telford disagreed with the idea of smaller goals.

Please point me to these countless professionals wanting larger goals. I know its anecdotal but my experience being directly involved hasnt led me to hearing any calls from players of coaches I have dealt with wanting smaller goals etc.

I am I accept overly sensitive but that comes from having to deal with frankly sexist attitudes to girls and womens football over many years. I at one point got jojojojo to close my caf account for a couple of years because this place was too frustrating with its sexism towards the womans game.

The OP wasnt being sexist and neither were you, there is a genuine desire from you and others to find answers, no problem there. I know I have over reacted to the original postings but that just was a response because of previous experiences a few years ago.

Emma Hayes brought up the subject a couple of years ago, she wanted a discussion, it was her opinion but she doesnt represent all female players (and neither do I) but I am not seeing or hearing a groundswell of calls from women players and coaches to change the pitch size, goal size or ball size.
Please point me to the countless female professionals doing the same (re Emma Hayes)
 

Thiagoal

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I think, if anything, the goals should be made larger to account for the lack of power and accuracy in their shooting. Smaller goals would totally ruin the sport imo
 

Ekkie Thump

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You have mentioned Emma Hayes but you havent addressed the whole "countless female professionals" thing. This big debate you mention, was it surrounding her comments at the time or is it a larger debate going on currently?

Jill Ellis the former US womens team coach disagrees with the need to change the size of the goal.
Former England goalkeeper Siobhan Chamberlain said "the idea of making goals smaller for women is ridiculous"
Hope Solo former US goalkeeper very strongly disagrees with making the goals smaller.
Hope Powell former England manager doesnt agree with the goals being made smaller
Crystal Dunn and Abby Dahlkemper, US womens team defenders disagreed with Emma Hayes. Dunn used to play for Hayes.
Welsh midfielder Jess Fishlock disagrees
Karen Bardsley who played 81 games for England disagrees.
Fara Williams, Lucy Bronze and Bex Smith disagreed with the idea.
Carly telford disagreed with the idea of smaller goals.

Please point me to these countless professionals wanting larger goals. I know its anecdotal but my experience being directly involved hasnt led me to hearing any calls from players of coaches I have dealt with wanting smaller goals etc.

I am I accept overly sensitive but that comes from having to deal with frankly sexist attitudes to girls and womens football over many years. I at one point got jojojojo to close my caf account for a couple of years because this place was too frustrating with its sexism towards the womans game.

The OP wasnt being sexist and neither were you, there is a genuine desire from you and others to find answers, no problem there. I know I have over reacted to the original postings but that just was a response because of previous experiences a few years ago.

Emma Hayes brought up the subject a couple of years ago, she wanted a discussion, it was her opinion but she doesnt represent all female players (and neither do I) but I am not seeing or hearing a groundswell of calls from women players and coaches to change the pitch size, goal size or ball size.
Please point me to the countless female professionals doing the same (re Emma Hayes)
I'm not gonna claim there's a massive groundswell of opinion or anything but it has been touted, most recently by Fara Williams in this article: https://www.thesportsman.com/articl...nd-want-football-s-sexist-comparisons-to-stop

Not sure the plural in the headline is justified in the content of the article. Lucy Bronze also has her say, which is very much your position. She's not wrong.
 

The holy trinity 68

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Ive coached a lot of girls and womens teams over the years and these threads pop up from time to time. The big problem is its men talking about what they think women should do. Its their version of the game. Men watch the womans game expecting it to be just like the mens game and when it isnt they want to change it. In all my years coaching I have never heard any of the girls or women I coached ask for any changes, they are happy playing it the way it is.
Bottom line, stop putting male expectations of the game onto the womans game. Let them have their version of the game, if you dont like it dont watch. If you can get your head around the fact it looks and plays differently then you have a chance of enjoying it for what it is.
But it's okay for the women's game to piggy back off the men's game and use the men's facilities etc? Until that changes then why should men not comment on the women's game and judge it by the men's standards?
 

SER19

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You have mentioned Emma Hayes but you havent addressed the whole "countless female professionals" thing. This big debate you mention, was it surrounding her comments at the time or is it a larger debate going on currently?

Jill Ellis the former US womens team coach disagrees with the need to change the size of the goal.
Former England goalkeeper Siobhan Chamberlain said "the idea of making goals smaller for women is ridiculous"
Hope Solo former US goalkeeper very strongly disagrees with making the goals smaller.
Hope Powell former England manager doesnt agree with the goals being made smaller
Crystal Dunn and Abby Dahlkemper, US womens team defenders disagreed with Emma Hayes. Dunn used to play for Hayes.
Welsh midfielder Jess Fishlock disagrees
Karen Bardsley who played 81 games for England disagrees.
Fara Williams, Lucy Bronze and Bex Smith disagreed with the idea.
Carly telford disagreed with the idea of smaller goals.

Please point me to these countless professionals wanting larger goals. I know its anecdotal but my experience being directly involved hasnt led me to hearing any calls from players of coaches I have dealt with wanting smaller goals etc.

I am I accept overly sensitive but that comes from having to deal with frankly sexist attitudes to girls and womens football over many years. I at one point got jojojojo to close my caf account for a couple of years because this place was too frustrating with its sexism towards the womans game.

The OP wasnt being sexist and neither were you, there is a genuine desire from you and others to find answers, no problem there. I know I have over reacted to the original postings but that just was a response because of previous experiences a few years ago.

Emma Hayes brought up the subject a couple of years ago, she wanted a discussion, it was her opinion but she doesnt represent all female players (and neither do I) but I am not seeing or hearing a groundswell of calls from women players and coaches to change the pitch size, goal size or ball size.
Please point me to the countless female professionals doing the same (re Emma Hayes)
Im not doing that. A quick Google search points you to endless female led discussions about the same and one of the most prominent managers in the game discussing it raised it as a huge talking point a couple of years back. Im not taking a position either way on it but when it's discussed on endless mediums and the times, the guardian etc the idea that men on a football forum can't weigh in with their utterly inconsequential 2 cents is mental. Genuine madness that their not particularly vociferous opinions are said to be ignorance of seeking to impose or from NoLogo, not welcome in any conversation ever. I cannot fathom it
 

SER19

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I'm not gonna claim there's a massive groundswell of opinion or anything but it has been touted, most recently by Fara Williams in this article: https://www.thesportsman.com/articl...nd-want-football-s-sexist-comparisons-to-stop

Not sure the plural in the headline is justified in the content of the article. Lucy Bronze also has her say, which is very much your position. She's not wrong.
Yes this was on bbc recently too. Its clearly a discussion that's being had but some randoms having it on a football forum is challenging for some reason
 

FreddieTheReddie

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It shouldn’t be changed. We should just accept that it’s never going to be as good. I watched a game not so long ago and it was awful. But then again it’s a small sample. I’ve watched about 10 Wolves (men’s) games this season and they’ve all been awful.
Why couldn’t it be as good? I don’t watch women’s football so I don’t know how good/bad it is but football is not very popular among girls so it makes sense that fewer girls play football when they are young and therefore fewer big talents are found in the gilrs’ teams. I think when it will become more popular more talented girls will play and become successful.
 

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I always aim top corner when shooting and it always works.. mainly because they can’t reach due to height. So in that sense it would make female keepers look a lot better. It is a unfair advantage but one I think most would rather deal with, why change it now?
 

jojojo

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In the women's pro game it might bring some marginal benefits, but I see them as no more than marginal. Sure, I sometimes feel a bit sorry for the goalkeepers, but again it's marginal. So they miss some shots that a bloke might tip round the post? Big deal. Those kinds of goals are the rarities anyway, and the striker deserves the win there. I can see why some pro managers would like to see it - it would stop some of the complaints they hear and change some of the luck/skill outcomes.

But I'm still fundamentally opposed to it. The fact that it could be easily be managed logistical by the top pro teams who would handle any stadium/pitch work for matches and training doesn't make it practical for the rest of the game. Though the women's game is growing, they're still a minority group and if that means you're not just scrambling for changing rooms, you're scrambling to find pitches that will also accept the extra hassle/groundstaff costs of changing posts, pitch markings etc.

You don't have to go far down the women's football pyramid in the UK before you're scrambling for resources. Asking for different resources is probably the last financial/volunteer straw for most clubs.

Head away from Europe and N.America and the situation is even more dire. Getting time on any real pitch is a big deal. Getting time on a specially configured pitch sounds like a pipedream. In terms of the real long term health and growth of the women's game making it easier for girls/women to play from grassroots is more important than keepers who can't quite reach the top corner or players who can't quite sprint down that ball passed towards the corner flag.
 

RooneyLegend

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It should but won't. Women involved in sport are a stubborn bunch. It's the same reason nets in female basketball are as high as in the men's despite it making zero sense.
 

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I watch local women's college basketball, where the ball is lighter and the 3 point line closer, and I'm quite sure that if that weren't true the game would suffer for it. I've never heard of anyone saying they should play the same way the men do, so it seems to me that neither using the same nor using different equipment is the "right" and egalitarian way to go.

All anyone would hope is that they might trial a smaller goal and/or ball at some level or just in a study or series of exhibition games, and see if it had benefits. Perhaps the best answer is that whatever the tradition has been it should be kept because that's what players are used to.
 

Spaghetti

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Why couldn’t it be as good? I don’t watch women’s football so I don’t know how good/bad it is but football is not very popular among girls so it makes sense that fewer girls play football when they are young and therefore fewer big talents are found in the gilrs’ teams. I think when it will become more popular more talented girls will play and become successful.
Biology. In no sport are women better than men (as far as I know). And I don’t mean this as a criticism of women; merely an observation.

The Australia women’s national team (ranked in the top 5 in the world) lost 7-0 to an u15s team. I think United women played Salford u18s a couple of years ago and lost 10-0.

There is a huge gap between male and female footballing ability. I wouldn’t imagine Salford u18s get a huge amount of great facilities either, so we can’t look at funding.

I cannot see into the future so I can’t say for sure, though it’s highly unlikely that women’s football will ever get anywhere close to the standard of the men’s.
 

Amar__

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Considering that this board is about 98% male I would say it's the wrong place to talk about it. And no male voices shouldn't be heard at all in this discussion, not even of a pro coach. If women want that and make their voices heard about it than the officials should listen to them.

But let me ask differently, what do you think you have to contribute to the topic and why should your voice be heard in the matter?
You do realise this isn't Official World's women football convention here happening at the moment, but just football forum where people discuss how to wipe their arse or whether Pogba's recent haircut influences his performance on the pitch?
 

FreddieTheReddie

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Biology. In no sport are women better than men (as far as I know). And I don’t mean this as a criticism of women; merely an observation.

The Australia women’s national team (ranked in the top 5 in the world) lost 7-0 to an u15s team. I think United women played Salford u18s a couple of years ago and lost 10-0.

There is a huge gap between male and female footballing ability. I wouldn’t imagine Salford u18s get a huge amount of great facilities either, so we can’t look at funding.

I cannot see into the future so I can’t say for sure, though it’s highly unlikely that women’s football will ever get anywhere close to the standard of the men’s.
They won’t be as fast or as strong as men but they can be as skilled as men.
I watched a lot of handball where women’s teams and national team were even slightly more popular than men’s in Hungary when I grew up and it was very enjoyable. Men’s handball is a bit more aggressive but I don’t think they are more entertaining. I think women’s football could be similarly good one day.
Maybe the size of the field could be a problem if they get exhausted and can’t play well for 90 minutes which is not a problem in handball because the court is small.