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[afrocentricity]

Why is it that people try to avoid laying the blame at the most culpable? Now you want to blame the education system? What's next?

People lied and swayed votes by doing it, happens in politics all the time. People failed to heed advice and fully comprehend something that they were voting on, that's on them.

No but having a degree in anything gives you skills that make you more likely to form an enlightened opinion than someone without it.

Someone with a sociology degree, for example, might not be inherently more intelligent than someone without, nor would they know anything about economics necessarily. But they understand the process of constructing an argument and forming an opinion and are more likely to identify who they should trust than someone without. Critical thinking is something people should learn in school, but they don't thats not elitism, its just a recognition in how badly the education system here has let some down.

Beat me to it, thankfully they seem to be doing that in some schools nowadays. In my daughter's anyway. They do PPE (politics), debating, critical thinking, philosophy, etc... This is in secondary school btw.

 

[Zarlak]

It's not anti intellectualism in any way shape or form. So having a degree in, say, mechanical engineering is going to provide you with a more rounded view of a referendum debate than someone who has spent the equivalent amount of time working on the shop floor? It's this worrying strand of elitism that I'm concerned about.

Not necessarily, but this form of education focuses heavily on developing skills that are applicable in many areas. The importance of evidence based practice, cognitive reasoning and critical thinking/critical analysis, teaching you how to use the tools at your disposal to inform yourself on an issue and pick out relevant, unbiased and accurate information whilst able to cite valid sources to back up your claims. To say that access to higher education doesn't give you the ability to form a more rounded view is simply false. We all have our examples of it going the other way, but on the whole it's a fact that higher education provides you with this. Whilst somebody with a degree in mechanical engineering is not necessarily likely to know more about economics than somebody who works on a shop floor they are more likely to possess several skills that have been developed in education further than somebody who hasn't had access to it that can be applied to any decision making process.

As M18 has pointed out - my issue is with those who use education as some sort of tool to claim that their views are of more worth than those without. A formal academic education does not necessarily make your opinion more valid I'm afraid and your examples of seeking professional advice are irrelevant here. The public were asked a black and white question re membership of the EU. Each vote is as valid as the next. Are you suggesting that those without formal education should be excluded from democratic process? That without formal education and professional qualifications obtained that someone cannot be allowed to have their say on their own future? Disturbing to say the least.

It seems to me that a large % of the remain vote would like to see the elderly and those who haven't achieved a reasonable level of education as being members of our society to exclude from democratic process. To remove their voice. And to the extent that there is talk of how to resist this process. Frightening stuff really.

How about those whose job it is to inform and educate the public do a better job of it in the first place if they truly believe that huge swathes of leavers voted out of pure ignorance of "the facts" The onus is on them if that is what they think has transpired.

I voted remain by the way.

Who you voted for is irrelevant, that didn't form any of my post - I'm not attacking for for thinking you voted leave or anything like that. You also seem to be mixing the right to vote with an opinion. I didn't question a vote being as valid as the next. Not for one second did I say that those without formal education should be excluded from voting and I can't think of how you came to this (I agree, quite disturbing) conclusion.

 

[Stactix]

Leavers should be shot, those who survive.. shot again.

 

[M18CTID]

To be fair, having a degree and actually having a knowledge of a subject matter might well work when talking about all manner of subjects including the economical repercussions of Brexit but not necessarily so when talking about the politics of it. Why? Because no matter how well educated/well versed someone is, you can't legislate for politicians lying and deceiving the electorate. And this leads me on to something else - I wasn't old enough to remember the 1975 referendum but a lot of people that were feel they were deceived into voting for something that wasn't quite what it said on the tin. I've done a bit of digging on this and granted I'm going off what another poster on another forum - someone I personally know though - said. It seems that there weren't many warning signs at the time but a few sources did try and get a message out that people could be voting for something that actually morphed into what the EU is as we know it. However, in the absence of social media the electorate were largely unaware of this and assumed it would just be a case of joining a common market of economic integration (something that makes sense to most of us). Now the people that were around the first time to vote in 1975 will have seen how the whole set-up has changed over time - something that younger voters haven't witnessed first hand - and I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that a lot of those people will have taken this into account when voting to Leave this time round.

 

[Zarlak]

To be fair, having a degree and actually having a knowledge of a subject matter might well work when talking about all manner of subjects including the economical repercussions of Brexit but not necessarily so when talking about the politics of it. Why? Because no matter how well educated/well versed someone is, you can't legislate for politicians lying and deceiving the electorate. And this leads me on to something else - I wasn't old enough to remember the 1975 referendum but a lot of people that were feel they were deceived into voting for something that wasn't quite what it said on the tin. I've done a bit of digging on this and granted I'm going off what another poster on another forum - someone I personally know though - said. It seems that there weren't many warning signs at the time but a few sources did try and get a message out that people could be voting for something that actually morphed into what the EU is as we know it. However, in the absence of social media the electorate were largely unaware of this and assumed it would just be a case of joining a common market of economic integration (something that makes sense to most of us). Now the people that were around the first time to vote in 1975 will have seen how the whole set-up has changed over time - something that younger voters haven't witnessed first hand - and I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that a lot of those people will have taken this into account when voting to Leave this time round.

But you can. This is only applicable if nobody knew any different. On this occasion everybody knew different. Leavers were told every day by almost all experts on these issues that it was rubbish and doesn't work this way. They chose to either actively ignore it, or to attribute weight to the opinions of Boris, Gove and Farage over the opinions of those who's job it is to work with this on a daily basis. They cannot be allowed to wriggle out of responsibility by pretending they were lied to and they didn't know any better. They were told every day for months on end that they were being lied to and they chose to reply back to informed and education opinion with statistics and evidence showing that it is a real possibility with 'scaremongering' or with some kind of nonchalant 'but we're a big country, therefore the EU will want to do business with us' like that's how it works.

On the second bit, there's no doubt that the EU has changed over time, some things for the better and some things for the worse. But leaving only makes the bad things better if there are no other consequences to doing so. An example I used is that if I said I was going to pinch you until you said stop, but then when you said stop I punched you in the face, you'd complain that you didn't know I was going to punch you in the face and if you did you wouldn't have deemed it worth it. In any decision making process you weigh up both pros and cons. You don't just weigh up pros. In any decision making process the good must outweigh the bad, otherwise it's a bad decision. Yes there are bad things about the EU, but that isn't reason enough to just leave unless you truly believe that a possible recession, job losses that the leave campaign confirmed would happen in advance, Scotland leaving the UK which you were warned about in advance would happen, the shit going on in Ireland which was warned of in advance, companies moving their HQ's out of London which we were warned about in advance and the fact that £350m wasn't going to be spent on the NHS which we were warned about in advance and the leave campaign have now backtracked on, and that immigration wasn't going to change which we were warned about in advance and the leave campaign have now backtracked on are a price worth paying and I would be astounded if anyone actually believed that. The issue is that people who were not informed on this subject ignored the opinion of those that were extremely well informed on the subject believing for some reason that it just simply wouldn't happen.

 

[Duafc]

@Barca84

Not entirely sure what that article proves In regards to my post except to illustrate my point further;

"immigrant families - particularly from Portugal, Pakistan or Bangladesh – are more likely to see education as a route out of the poverty trap."

And access it successfully, thus exiting the poverty trap.... Sooooo basically those who want to can, because the fact of the matter is that a higher level of education is now much much more accessible to anyone with support, grants and bursaries available to combat a lack of funding. In no small part contributed to by the EU in direct funding, research grants and the great many EU citizens working or studying in higher education in the UK.

"By contrast, if you’ve been in a white working class family for three generations, with high unemployment, you don’t necessarily believe education is going to change that."

So in fact they learn from their parents and their grandparents that education is not something to aim for, as it will not help... Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It is not that the level of education is restricted or difficult to attain, it's actually increasingly the opposite resulting in a saturation of degrees, it's that they don't want it, for reasons we can only speculate, though the benefits system might be one place to look.

Returning then to the actual point which you seem to have ignored;

A great many leave voters had very justifiable reasons, I'm absolutely sure, millions. This vote however was won off the back of xenophobic pandering and anti-European, anti-immigration crusades. Appealing to the target market as can so clearly be seen, hats off to Bojo on that one. Dress it up however you like to justify your own vote, but let's not ignore the demographics.

Based on more than just the demographic which indicated that the majority of people with a higher standard of education voted remain.

As might have been evidenced if you quoted the post and not one tongue in cheek line at the start.

 

[M18CTID]

But you can. This is only applicable if nobody knew any different. On this occasion everybody knew different. Leavers were told every day by almost all experts on these issues that it was rubbish and doesn't work this way. They chose to either actively ignore it, or to attribute weight to the opinions of Boris, Gove and Farage over the opinions of those who's job it is to work with this on a daily basis. They cannot be allowed to wriggle out of responsibility by pretending they were lied to and they didn't know any better. They were told every day for months on end that they were being lied to and they chose to reply back to informed and education opinion with statistics and evidence showing that it is a real possibility with 'scaremongering' or with some kind of nonchalant 'but we're a big country, therefore the EU will want to do business with us' like that's how it works.

On the second bit, there's no doubt that the EU has changed over time, some things for the better and some things for the worse. But leaving only makes the bad things better if there are no other consequences to doing so. An example I used is that if I said I was going to pinch you until you said stop, but then when you said stop I punched you in the face, you'd complain that you didn't know I was going to punch you in the face and if you did you wouldn't have deemed it worth it. In any decision making process you weigh up both pros and cons. You don't just weigh up pros. In any decision making process the good must outweigh the bad, otherwise it's a bad decision. Yes there are bad things about the EU, but that isn't reason enough to just leave unless you truly believe that a possible recession, job losses that the leave campaign confirmed would happen in advance, Scotland leaving the UK which you were warned about in advance would happen, the shit going on in Ireland which was warned of in advance, companies moving their HQ's out of London which we were warned about in advance and the fact that £350m wasn't going to be spent on the NHS which we were warned about in advance and the leave campaign have now backtracked on, and that immigration wasn't going to change which we were warned about in advance and the leave campaign have now backtracked on are a price worth paying and I would be astounded if anyone actually believed that. The issue is that people who were not informed on this subject ignored the opinion of those that were extremely well informed on the subject believing for some reason that it just simply wouldn't happen.

I can't speak for others but I certainly didn't take much notice of what the figureheads behind the leave campaign were saying. I've already stated that I made my decision based on opinions I researched elsewhere from people who didn't have a vested interest either way.

IMO there were lies and scaremongering on both sides - I fully accepted that there could be short-term negative consequences but I also believe that there will be benefits in the long-term. You can't say that it definitely is the wrong move to leave because the vote was only cast last Thursday and no-one knows for sure how it's all going to pan out. There literally has been no previous precedent on this. It didn't come down to immigration for a lot of people - it came down to a worry that we were heading more towards a federal superstate with even less control. You acknowledge yourself that there is plenty wrong with the EU and I think this warped idea of shoe-horning wildly differing economic models into a one size fits all is proving more and more that it isn't fit for purpose.

There's so much to play out on this yet - there will be negotiations galore of course. I can see a more conciliatory tone coming out from the EU over the coming months and maybe a compromise solution involving the UK joining the EFTA could be on the cards. That might not go down well with those that did vote purely on immigration issues but that's irrelevant to me as that was never a main issue for me in the first place. I'd imagine that Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, and Liechtenstein are following events very closely because to have a country with a larger economy on board may give them more leverage when negotiating future issues with the EU.

 

[SirScholes]

To be fair, having a degree and actually having a knowledge of a subject matter might well work when talking about all manner of subjects including the economical repercussions of Brexit but not necessarily so when talking about the politics of it. Why? Because no matter how well educated/well versed someone is, you can't legislate for politicians lying and deceiving the electorate. And this leads me on to something else - I wasn't old enough to remember the 1975 referendum but a lot of people that were feel they were deceived into voting for something that wasn't quite what it said on the tin. I've done a bit of digging on this and granted I'm going off what another poster on another forum - someone I personally know though - said. It seems that there weren't many warning signs at the time but a few sources did try and get a message out that people could be voting for something that actually morphed into what the EU is as we know it. However, in the absence of social media the electorate were largely unaware of this and assumed it would just be a case of joining a common market of economic integration (something that makes sense to most of us). Now the people that were around the first time to vote in 1975 will have seen how the whole set-up has changed over time - something that younger voters haven't witnessed first hand - and I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that a lot of those people will have taken this into account when voting to Leave this time round.

I know my dad voted leave with this part of his reasoning, his view is be part of a common market all for that and that's why in 1975 he voted for it, but he isn't happy with what the EU has turned into.
He also works directly with people who can't find work (employability course leader) and hears often how companies in the north east have turned to foreign labour because it's cheaper.
I didn't vote the same but now the dice has been rolled I'm not argueing with him or calling him a racist!
He had very valid points of his own, we both agree that this petition needs to stop now or we are essentially abandoning democracy.
There were a lot of positives to remain but it's not like the EU was sailing well, it had its own financial troubles, the future is uncertain but that doesn't mean it will end badly for us.
I agree with you it's unprecedented so hopefully will work in our favour

 

[afrocentricity]

This is the thing... some (@M18CTID for ex.) keep saying you hope it works out? Why put yourself in a position where you have to hope for the best? Or worse still, everybody else too? Why gamble like that... as opposed to seeking alternate routes? Did you think you were out of options and this was your only course of action? Or did you just not believe it would turn out like this?

 

[Zarlak]

I know my dad voted leave with this part of his reasoning, his view is be part of a common market all for that and that's why in 1975 he voted for it, but he isn't happy with what the EU has turned into.
He also works directly with people who can't find work (employability course leader) and hears often how companies in the north east have turned to foreign labour because it's cheaper.
I didn't vote the same but now the dice has been rolled I'm not argueing with him or calling him a racist!
He had very valid points of his own, we both agree that this petition needs to stop now or we are essentially abandoning democracy.
There were a lot of positives to remain but it's not like the EU was sailing well, it had its own financial troubles, the future is uncertain but that doesn't mean it will end badly for us.
I agree with you it's unprecedented so hopefully will work in our favour

But did he actually think that the direction the EU may or may not take in the future was worse than a possible recession, Scotland leaving the UK, Ireland kicking off, companies headquarted in London leaving the UK as they need immediate access to the EU, job losses, the pound tanking through the floor etc and the fact that the £350m a week and immigration stopping were lies? Or did he simply believe that that none of it was going to happen. I'm genuinely interested, no sarcasm intended.

 

[M18CTID]

But did he actually think that the direction the EU may or may not take in the future was worse than a possible recession, Scotland leaving the UK, Ireland kicking off, companies headquarted in London leaving the UK as they need immediate access to the EU, job losses, the pound tanking through the floor etc and the fact that the £350m a week and immigration stopping were lies? Or did he simply believe that that none of it was going to happen. I'm genuinely interested, no sarcasm intended.

This was no different to a general election. Like it or not, the vast majority of people vote for self interest - misguided or otherwise. If you think everyone was going to consider all the other possible ramifications then you're way off beam. That doesn't necessarily make those people thick or racist or bigoted (though of course some will be) - many will look at their own lot and make a decision based on that. Did you read the Guardian article further up that I posted? I'd implore you to spend 10 minutes to read it mate.

 

[Zarlak]

This was no different to a general election. Like it or not, the vast majority of people vote for self interest - misguided or otherwise. If you think everyone was going to consider all the other possible ramifications then you're way off beam. That doesn't necessarily make those people thick or racist or bigoted (though of course some will be) - many will look at their own lot and make a decision based on that. Did you read the Guardian article further up that I posted? I'd implore you to spend 10 minutes to read it mate.

I mean, I would argue that if people did vote while ignoring the ramifications that were being plastered everywhere daily then they would be incredibly thick. Acknowledging them but thinking they won't happen is one thing, thinking it's a price worth paying is another (though I massively disagree) but not even considering them strikes me as incredibly stupid.

EDIT: I can't see any articles, any chance you can link it for me? I'm at work so bit of a hassle to go looking.

 

[M18CTID]

This is the thing... some (@M18CTID for ex.) keep saying you hope it works out? Why put yourself in a position where you have to hope for the best? Or worse still, everybody else too? Why gamble like that... as opposed to seeking alternate routes? Did you think you were out of options and this was your only course of action? Or did you just not believe it would turn out like this?

Turn out like what? Crikey, we're only on day 4. Let's see where we are in 3,4, or 5 years down the line.

And what are the alternative routes when this was a simple yes or no referendum? There are no alternative routes because our beloved EU doesn't believe in meaningful compromise and is a non-democratic organisation.

It's bang out of order to blame any fall out from this on the electorate as a whole - if you want to blame anyone, blame the people who agreed to have a referendum in the first place or the EU for arrogantly thinking they can do whatever the feck they want and treat their member countries and citizens with utter contempt. It's not like they can claim they never saw this day coming because there have been enough warning signs over the past few years.

 

[M18CTID]

I mean, I would argue that if people did vote while ignoring the ramifications that were being plastered everywhere daily then they would be incredibly thick. Acknowledging them but thinking they won't happen is one thing, thinking it's a price worth paying is another (though I massively disagree) but not even considering them strikes me as incredibly stupid.

EDIT: I can't see any articles, any chance you can link it for me? I'm at work so bit of a hassle to go looking.

Yeah, I get your point mate but like I say this is no different to any other election - you'll always get people that don't do the research and therefore don't know what they're voting for. You could make the same argument about juries to be honest - putting the fate of someone in the hands of 12 people of wildly differing intelligence levels, some of whom may not have a grasp of how the legal process works, isn't necessarily the wisest thing to do but that's the system that operates in this country and is considered to be one of the fairest in the world.

Here's the article by the way: http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ain-brexit-money-class-inequality-westminster

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Not smarter, just better educated it seems;

• The older the voters, the more likely they were to have voted to leave the EU. Nearly three quarters (73%) of 18 to 24 year-olds voted to remain, falling to under two thirds (62%) among 35-44s. A majority of those aged over 45 voted to leave, rising to 60% of those aged 65 or over. Most people with children aged ten or under voted to remain; most of those with children aged 11 or older voted to leave.

• A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension.

• Among private renters and people with mortgages, a small majority (55% and 54%) voted to remain; those who owned their homes outright voted to leave by 55% to 45%. Around two thirds of council and housing association tenants voted to leave.

• A majority (57%) of those with a university degree voted to remain, as 64% of those with a higher degree and more than four in five (81%) of those still in full time education. Among those whose formal education ended at secondary school or earlier, a large majority voted to leave.

• White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%. Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters. Nearly six in ten (58%) of those describing themselves as Christian voted to leave; seven in ten Muslims voted to remain.

A great many leave voters had very justifiable reasons, I'm absolutely sure, millions.

This vote however was won off the back of xenophobic pandering and anti-European, anti-immigration crusades. Appealing to the target market as can so clearly be seen, hats off to Bojo on that one. Dress it up however you like to justify your own vote, but let's not ignore the demographics.


Besides the point you have failed to make comment on whether Brexit by fracturing the UK and Europe and exposing a certain level of intolerance towards immigration and therefore by extension Muslims would be further fuel to the cause of IS; both in terms of a win for their anti-west agenda and further opportunity for radicalising propoganda.

After of course you completely ignored the terrorist element in NI of course, harder to argue I guess.

This post is amazing, I'm taking these stats thanks

 

[afrocentricity]

It's bang out of order to blame any fall out from this on the electorate as a whole - if you want to blame anyone, blame the people who agreed to have a referendum in the first place or the EU for arrogantly thinking they can do whatever the feck they want and treat their member countries and citizens with utter contempt. It's not like they can claim they never saw this day coming because there have been enough warning signs over the past few years.

So don't blame the Leave leaders or any aspect of the Leave voters?

Turn out like what? Crikey, we're only on day 4. Let's see where we are in 3,4, or 5 years down the line.

Sounds like your are OK with the current outlook, fair enough.

And what are the alternative routes when this was a simple yes or no referendum? There are no alternative routes because our beloved EU doesn't believe in meaningful compromise and is a non-democratic organisation.

Given that outlook how do you expect us to negotiate great terms with them now we have decided to leave then? Or maybe you don't?

May seem like I'm grilling you but you seem to be one of the few forthcoming Leave voters so wanted to see were you are coming from...

 

[M18CTID]

Turn out like what? Crikey, we're only on day 4. Let's see where we are in 3,4, or 5 years down the line.

And what are the alternative routes when this was a simple yes or no referendum? There are no alternative routes because our beloved EU doesn't believe in meaningful compromise and is a non-democratic organisation.

It's bang out of order to blame any fall out from this on the electorate as a whole - if you want to blame anyone, blame the people who agreed to have a referendum in the first place.

So don't blame the Leave leaders or any aspect of the Leave voters?

Sounds like your are OK with the current outlook, fair enough.

Given that outlook how do you expect us to negotiate great terms with them now we have decided to leave then? Or maybe you don't?

May seem like I'm grilling you but you seem to be one of the few forthcoming Leave voters so wanted to see were you are coming from...

I'm more inclined to blame the leaders of both campaigns than I am to blame those that voted. Everyone has a democratic right to vote whatever way they want and while you or I may not agree with how they arrived at that decision or the way that they voted the fact remains that they're entitled to their opinion and vote. There will be people on both sides that put zero thought into whichever way they voted and it's wrong to say blame one side more than the other.

Like I said, it's day 4 and this volatility was always to be expected in the short term. I think a lot of people need to calm down and wait for negotiations to start. I don't believe we'll get a free pass to the EU market but I also don't believe we'll get totally restrictive terms either - both sides need each other and to suggest otherwise would be naive IMO.

Let's not forget that this could also be the catalyst for other countries to go down the referendum route and if that is the case then it could lead to a restructuring of the whole organisation.

Right, I'm off to the pub to watch the match

 

[SirScholes]

But did he actually think that the direction the EU may or may not take in the future was worse than a possible recession, Scotland leaving the UK, Ireland kicking off, companies headquarted in London leaving the UK as they need immediate access to the EU, job losses, the pound tanking through the floor etc and the fact that the £350m a week and immigration stopping were lies? Or did he simply believe that that none of it was going to happen. I'm genuinely interested, no sarcasm intended.

No one knows if that is going to happen for sure where as people were/are suffering under current eu membership, he argues that there were lies on both sides didn't want that to sound like "tit for tat" highlighting the fact we went in for the common market not federalism so we were brought in under a lie.
That David Cameron brought this on his self by screwing up negotiations with europe, if we remained then we would be at their mercy for the forseeable future because they'd say "what you going to do? Leave? You've already tried that"
This gives Britain some control back what we do next is so important but the scare mongering is still going on, we should be trying to remain postibe otherwise yes we will be in the shit.
I voted remain because for someone without a wealth of knowledge of how markets work it seemed the safe option but maybe not the right one. Britain and the EU need each other so I can't see us being cut adrift

 

[SirScholes]

This is the thing... some (@M18CTID for ex.) keep saying you hope it works out? Why put yourself in a position where you have to hope for the best? Or worse still, everybody else too? Why gamble like that... as opposed to seeking alternate routes? Did you think you were out of options and this was your only course of action? Or did you just not believe it would turn out like this?

Maybe they thought it wasn't working in the first place and something had to change and this was the last chance for a long time to make that change happen?
I know a lot of people that feel this way

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Maybe they thought it wasn't working in the first place and something had to change and this was the last chance for a long time to make that change happen?
I know a lot of people that feel this way

I agree, I told my friend once that if he wasn't happy with his face, he should cut just cut his nose.

 

[SirScholes]

I agree, I told my friend once that if he wasn't happy with his face, he should cut just cut his nose.

Not the same thing in the slightest

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Not the same thing in the slightest

Despite the intentions of some, it kind of is. It's one thing to be unhappy with something, another to just wreck your economy over it especially as most people were uninformed.

 

[SirScholes]

Despite the intentions of some, it kind of is. It's one thing to be unhappy with something, another to just wreck your economy over it especially as most people were uninformed.

All the whinging is based on assumptions, the economy was poor already.
Cut your nose off and it will be cut off, as in won't grow back that is it.
You don't know that the economy will be worse off you don't know what kind of deals will now happen it very well might turn out to be a positive, so no it's not the same at all.
I've posted before that a lot of people voted because they were having jobs taken away from them, lack of housing due to issues from being in the EU, and unless you've been in their shoes you can't imagine the pain that has brought so with an issue deeply effecting them of course they are going to vote leave.
It's a problem that the givernmenti has created not the general public, don't feck up negotiations with europe don't take Britain in a EU membership when the original vote was for a common market thereby pissing off everyone that voted "in" back in 1975

 

[Red Defence]

To be fair, having a degree and actually having a knowledge of a subject matter might well work when talking about all manner of subjects including the economical repercussions of Brexit but not necessarily so when talking about the politics of it. Why? Because no matter how well educated/well versed someone is, you can't legislate for politicians lying and deceiving the electorate. And this leads me on to something else - I wasn't old enough to remember the 1975 referendum but a lot of people that were feel they were deceived into voting for something that wasn't quite what it said on the tin. I've done a bit of digging on this and granted I'm going off what another poster on another forum - someone I personally know though - said. It seems that there weren't many warning signs at the time but a few sources did try and get a message out that people could be voting for something that actually morphed into what the EU is as we know it. However, in the absence of social media the electorate were largely unaware of this and assumed it would just be a case of joining a common market of economic integration (something that makes sense to most of us). Now the people that were around the first time to vote in 1975 will have seen how the whole set-up has changed over time - something that younger voters haven't witnessed first hand - and I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that a lot of those people will have taken this into account when voting to Leave this time round.

What you say is correct. The reason that so many older voters voted leave is precisely because they saw the EEC/EU worsening over the years. (So many other people weren't in a position to see that and the younger voters have not known anything else but the EU). It morphed from a trading community to almost a Brussels takeover. People didn't need to listen to the arguments put forward by any of the campaigns, they weren't swayed by any of the lies from either side as many think, because they already knew which way they were voting and they'd known that for many, many years. Education wasn't really a factor either. Brussels was the main factor. The gradual increase of power from there had only one outcome.....loss of sovereignty for the countries enmeshed in their grip. Democracy would be gone forever if we had stayed within the EU. Other countries are also seeing that. The UK will not be the only country to leave the EU.

Times will understandably be difficult until we release ourselves from the EU vice but after that I am absolutely positive that we will be fine.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

All the whinging is based on assumptions, the economy was poor already.
Cut your nose off and it will be cut off, as in won't grow back that is it.
You don't know that the economy will be worse off you don't know what kind of deals will now happen it very well might turn out to be a positive, so no it's not the same at all.
I've posted before that a lot of people voted because they were having jobs taken away from them, lack of housing due to issues from being in the EU, and unless you've been in their shoes you can't imagine the pain that has brought so with an issue seeping effecting them of course they are going to vote leave.
It's a problem that the givernmenti has created not the general public, don't feck up negotiations with europe don't take Britain in a EU membership when the original vote was for a common market thereby pissing off everyone that voted "in" back in 1975

The economy definitely wasn't heading for another recession as we are right now. So just saying it was poor before, really ignores the context

And yeah I don't know if the economy will be worse off in five years time, I just know it is worse off now. You don't know what kind of deals we will get either and the likelihood is we will have a worse off deal than we already do.

People were having jobs taken away from them already. There was lack of housing already an issue irrespective of the EU. I'm not that well and housing is certainly an issue for me, but I know that having a good economy is pretty important regardless of wondering what the EU has done for me.

This was a mess the people voted for, so don't be too surprised if politicians feck up. All you can do is have faith, isn't that what seems to main messaging from Leave anyway?

 

[SirScholes]

The economy definitely wasn't heading for another recession as we are right now. So just saying it was poor before, really ignores the context

And yeah I don't know if the economy will be worse off in five years time, I just know it is worse off now. You don't know what kind of deals we will get either and the likelihood is we will have a worse off deal than we already do.

People were having jobs taken away from them already. There was lack of housing already an issue irrespective of the EU. I'm not that well and housing is certainly an issue for me, but I know that having a good economy is pretty important regardless of wondering what the EU has done for me.

This was a mess the people voted for, so don't be too surprised if politicians feck up. All you can do is have faith, isn't that what seems to main messaging from Leave anyway?

But like I say its easy to say that when your in a job and your own standard of living is secure, this isn't the case with everyone my old man works with these people who are effected and its absolutely disgusting the eu is failing a large percentage of the population, it was either take a risk or continue to struggle...given the choice it isn't surprising what the majority of the nation voted for

 

[FlawlessThaw]

But like I say its easy to say that when your in a job and your own standard of living is secure, this isn't the case with everyone my old man works with these people who are effected and its absolutely disgusting the eu is failing a large percentage of the population, it was either take a risk or continue to struggle...given the choice it isn't surprising what the majority of the nation voted for

Yeah it's not surprising, particularly as a lot of people were mislead. Likelihood is the people your dad deals with has no idea what the EU ever did for them, and since the influence and membership of Unions in the country has been eroded. The boogeyman of blaming the unions has gone to the EU.

 

[SirScholes]

Yeah it's not surprising, particularly as a lot of people were mislead. Likelihood is the people your dad deals with has no idea what the EU ever did for them, and since the influence and membership of Unions in the country has been eroded. The boogeyman of blaming the unions has gone to the EU.

That card is being over played people were mislead in joining the EU in the first place and haven't forgotten that, also why a large percentage voted leave

 

[FlawlessThaw]

That card is being over played people were mislead in joining the EU in the first place and haven't forgotten that, also why a large percentage voted leave

I honestly doubt that's the case. People bought into the idea that EU is controlled by a few men, when the people are either elected by our own representatives either our political leaders or MEPs.

There are complex reasons why people voted leave but the one being downplayed is the fact the baby boomers - the ones who never have known Europe to be in strife, still fear immigrants and are a selfish lot primarily voted Leave in their droves.

 

[SirScholes]

I honestly doubt that's the case. People bought into the idea that EU is controlled by a few men, when the people are either elected by our own representatives either our political leaders or MEPs.

There are complex reasons why people voted leave but the one being downplayed is the fact the baby boomers - the ones who never have known Europe to be in strife, still fear immigrants and are a selfish lot primarily voted Leave in their droves.

I think it's really sad people think that way, as I said before a lot of people have lost jobs and struggle with housing...this a problem that the government and eu created, you said you doubt they know what the eu has done for them...the people I mentioned are jobless and almost homeless so you're right they're are probably scratching their heads wondering what the EU does actually do? trust me it is the case hense why most leavers were an older generation that remember that the vote was for a common market not to be part of the EU, there was no vote for that.
But this belongs I'm a different thread so I'll stop there, I simply understand why people voted leave and I find the idea of having a petition ridiculous, it ruins democracy which would be much more scary than.the situation we are faced with

 

[M18CTID]

I think it's really sad people think that way, as I said before a lot of people have lost jobs and struggle with housing...this a problem that the government and eu created, you said you doubt they know what the eu has done for them...the people I mentioned are jobless and almost homeless so you're right they're are probably scratching their heads wondering what the EU does actually do? trust me it is the case hense why most leavers were an older generation that remember that the vote was for a common market not to be part of the EU, there was no vote for that.
But this belongs I'm a different thread so I'll stop there, I simply understand why people voted leave and I find the idea of having a petition ridiculous, it ruins democracy which would be much more scary than.the situation we are faced with

The situation you mentioned further up about migrants doing skilled jobs for less money than local people is indeed an issue and is touched on in the Guardian article I posted further up:

A few years later, we met builders in South Shields who told us that their hourly rate had come down by £3 thanks to new arrivals from eastern Europe

I see that's not too far from where you are. You can't blame people who are affected by this for being in some way resentful. It would be wrong to class these people as your typical EDL/BNP knuckle-dragging racist but some of that resentment is probably misguided though - if the employers paid the going rate rather than a reduced rate then that would be fair but how you get the employers to do that is beyond me as I'd imagine they're not breaking any laws if they're paying at least the minimum wage. Something would need to change - maybe bring in a law that stipulates that they should pay the typical going rate to both locals and migrants for skilled jobs in that area?

Thankfully where I work it's different and we don't engage in such unscrupulous behaviour. We have 2 Poles here who have been with us for 7 or 8 years now. Both were unskilled workers at the start but one of them has now been trained up and is a skilled engineer. He gets paid exactly the same as the other guys on the shop floor. The other, while unskilled, does a very important job for us and he gets paid well above the minimum wage. In fact, he's been savvy enough on a couple of occasions in the past to negotiate a pay rise for himself in addition to the annual company wage review!

 

[Barca84]

@Barca84

Not entirely sure what that article proves In regards to my post except to illustrate my point further;

"immigrant families - particularly from Portugal, Pakistan or Bangladesh – are more likely to see education as a route out of the poverty trap."

And access it successfully, thus exiting the poverty trap.... Sooooo basically those who want to can, because the fact of the matter is that a higher level of education is now much much more accessible to anyone with support, grants and bursaries available to combat a lack of funding. In no small part contributed to by the EU in direct funding, research grants and the great many EU citizens working or studying in higher education in the UK.

"By contrast, if you’ve been in a white working class family for three generations, with high unemployment, you don’t necessarily believe education is going to change that."

So in fact they learn from their parents and their grandparents that education is not something to aim for, as it will not help... Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It is not that the level of education is restricted or difficult to attain, it's actually increasingly the opposite resulting in a saturation of degrees, it's that they don't want it, for reasons we can only speculate, though the benefits system might be one place to look.

Returning then to the actual point which you seem to have ignored;

A great many leave voters had very justifiable reasons, I'm absolutely sure, millions. This vote however was won off the back of xenophobic pandering and anti-European, anti-immigration crusades. Appealing to the target market as can so clearly be seen, hats off to Bojo on that one. Dress it up however you like to justify your own vote, but let's not ignore the demographics.

Based on more than just the demographic which indicated that the majority of people with a higher standard of education voted remain.
.
As might have been evidenced if you quoted the post and not one tongue in cheek line at the start.

You've also missed my point entirely but let's move on a little. I voted remain. Despite voting remain I had plenty of empathy with the leave camp. I've 25 years first hand experience under my belt working with some of the most marginalised and disenfranchised members of our spectacularly unequal society in post industrial towns that have been consigned to the scrapheap for half a century. Your sneering assessment that the leave vote is predominantly a racist one ignores all of the other social and political determinants that have played their part but this is the ongoing and bigoted mantra of the defeated remainers it seems. To cap it a lack of formal education is then used as a stick to beat the leave vote - how ironic.

All this of course is just the first shots in what is in effect class war and your post, along with the vast majority in here, makes it quite clear where you stand. The educated vs the thickos. The progressives vs the backward mob. The haves vs the have nots. This and the other brexit threads are chock full of the former. Some of the bile is shameful but then one thing that has most certainly been made clear from this referendum result is that there's a lot of people around who seem to think that they are inherently better than other people in some way. And this is oddly, well, not very progressive really. Neither is it progressive, educated, or tolerant to reduce the loss of the campaign to misinformation, racist scaremongering, or people's basic inability to vote the way that you would like them to. The petulance of this all is staggering as is the disdain for those who have voted to leave and the furious refusal to accept the democracy of it.

I get it. You didn't get what you wanted. You wanted what was established and you wanted the status quo to continue because it suited you and that's entirely normal. What's been proven is that there are more people in this country who it doesn't suit. It's a vote for change and that, ironically, can make it excitingly progressive.

 

[evra]

......................

 

[M18CTID]

You've also missed my point entirely but let's move on a little. I voted remain. Despite voting remain I had plenty of empathy with the leave camp. I've 25 years first hand experience under my belt working with some of the most marginalised and disenfranchised members of our spectacularly unequal society in post industrial towns that have been consigned to the scrapheap for half a century. Your sneering assessment that the leave vote is predominantly a racist one ignores all of the other social and political determinants that have played their part but this is the ongoing and bigoted mantra of the defeated remainers it seems. To cap it a lack of formal education is then used as a stick to beat the leave vote - how ironic.

All this of course is just the first shots in what is in effect class war and your post, along with the vast majority in here, makes it quite clear where you stand. The educated vs the thickos. The progressives vs the backward mob. The haves vs the have nots. This and the other brexit threads are chock full of the former. Some of the bile is shameful but then one thing that has most certainly been made clear from this referendum result is that there's a lot of people around who seem to think that they are inherently better than other people in some way. And this is oddly, well, not very progressive really. Neither is it progressive, educated, or tolerant to reduce the loss of the campaign to misinformation, racist scaremongering, or people's basic inability to vote the way that you would like them to. The petulance of this all is staggering as is the disdain for those who have voted to leave and the furious refusal to accept the democracy of it.

I get it. You didn't get what you wanted. You wanted what was established and you wanted the status quo to continue because it suited you and that's entirely normal. What's been proven is that there are more people in this country who it doesn't suit. It's a vote for change and that, ironically, can make it excitingly progressive.

Brilliantly put.

 

[Barca84]

Brilliantly put.

Stop this or I'll be forced to say something nice about Joe Hart.

You can tell it's the close season

 

[M18CTID]

Stop this or I'll be forced to say something nice about Joe Hart.

You can tell it's the close season

I'm sure we'll be falling out again come August

 

[afrocentricity]

Not all leave voters are racist.... But all racists are gonna be leave voters.

 

[NinjaFletch]

You've also missed my point entirely but let's move on a little. I voted remain. Despite voting remain I had plenty of empathy with the leave camp. I've 25 years first hand experience under my belt working with some of the most marginalised and disenfranchised members of our spectacularly unequal society in post industrial towns that have been consigned to the scrapheap for half a century. Your sneering assessment that the leave vote is predominantly a racist one ignores all of the other social and political determinants that have played their part but this is the ongoing and bigoted mantra of the defeated remainers it seems. To cap it a lack of formal education is then used as a stick to beat the leave vote - how ironic.

All this of course is just the first shots in what is in effect class war and your post, along with the vast majority in here, makes it quite clear where you stand. The educated vs the thickos. The progressives vs the backward mob. The haves vs the have nots. This and the other brexit threads are chock full of the former. Some of the bile is shameful but then one thing that has most certainly been made clear from this referendum result is that there's a lot of people around who seem to think that they are inherently better than other people in some way. And this is oddly, well, not very progressive really. Neither is it progressive, educated, or tolerant to reduce the loss of the campaign to misinformation, racist scaremongering, or people's basic inability to vote the way that you would like them to. The petulance of this all is staggering as is the disdain for those who have voted to leave and the furious refusal to accept the democracy of it.

I get it. You didn't get what you wanted. You wanted what was established and you wanted the status quo to continue because it suited you and that's entirely normal. What's been proven is that there are more people in this country who it doesn't suit. It's a vote for change and that, ironically, can make it excitingly progressive.

I disagree with you. Leave voters aren't being called thick because what you're saying is untrue. They're being called thick because most of them live in areas that disproportionately receive EU funding (i.e. they get a lot more than they pay in) and disproportionately receive immigrants (i.e. lower than the national average). They're being called thick because they live in areas like Sunderland where the largest private employer had to take the Leave campaign to court because it was lying about whether or not they could guarantee jobs would remain, or Cornwall, or Wales. They're being called thick because they voted to put more power in the hands of the people who are actually responsible for our 'spectacularly unequal society'. Is that unfair? Of course it is, yet the staggering scale of people voting against their self interests, and cupping their hands over their ears when presented with the facts is difficult to reconcile.

Regardless though, this campaign so blatantly was won by misinformation I don't know how you can deny it.

You're right though, that the response should not be 'how are they so thick to think this will help?' it should be 'How are people so desperate that they think this will help? How have they been so marginalised and neglected, and areas of this country ignored so much that people felt the need to do this?'.

And one final point, I reject unequivocally that Remain was a vote for the status quo. I don't think there's a single Remain voter that thought the EU was not in need of reform, or that we should not address the issue that you're talking about, I suspect you will agree that, on this point at least, your vote for Remain - like mine - was simply to entrench the idea that we keep carrying on like we were?

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

A great many leave voters had very justifiable reasons, I'm absolutely sure, millions.

This vote however was won off the back of xenophobic pandering and anti-European, anti-immigration crusades. Appealing to the target market as can so clearly be seen, hats off to Bojo on that one. Dress it up however you like to justify your own vote, but let's not ignore the demographics.


Besides the point you have failed to make comment on whether Brexit by fracturing the UK and Europe and exposing a certain level of intolerance towards immigration and therefore by extension Muslims would be further fuel to the cause of IS; both in terms of a win for their anti-west agenda and further opportunity for radicalising propoganda.

After of course you completely ignored the terrorist element in NI of course, harder to argue I guess.

This vote was won on the back of neglect, incompetence and lies, and all three dating back many years. The culprit was not always European Union policy directly, but it most certainly played its part. For example, i could write a similarly apt story about the rise of extremism in Europe to which you have done, only mine ha actually taken place. Moreover, i would charge the EU with having been responsible for such, at least n part.

However the Remain camp did repeatedly suggest that our ability to defend ourselves would be diminished, but in terms of our practical capability rather than some theoretical psychological scenario. I also believe that any deal we strike with Europe shall involve limited FoM, so many of these fears surrounding NI don't even get off the ground.

University education doesn't count for very much if a person then fails to exert themselves during the debate. And simple common sense can be far more important quality than a degree in my experience. Perhaps i take this somewhat personally though, as i elected to bypass university myself due to personal circumstances (in hindsight it might have been ejoyable but one can't turn back the clock).

Do you accept that the other two alleged lies from StrongerIn, were just that?

 

[BringNaniBack]

Not all leave voters are racist.... But all racists are gonna be leave voters.

Haha, that is hilarious. That's only like the tenth time I've seen that joke.