Signs of Progress | Mourinho vs Van Gaal

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

I'm useless at finding these things, but I'd be interested to see how the zonal possession compares? I'd wager our possession now is generally further up the pitch as well.

According to whoscored:

2015-16 (LvG): Own Third: 24% Middle Third: 44% Opposition Third: 32% (possession stats)


Shots in 6 yard box: 5% Shots in 18 yard box: 51% Shots Outside the Box: 45%

Shots pg: 11.3 Shot OT pg: 3.8






2016-17 (Mourinho): Own Third: 23% Middle Third: 45% Opposition Third: 32%

Shots in 6 yard box: 7% Shots in 18 yard box: 52% Shots Outside the Box: 41%

Shots pg: 17 Shot OT pg: 6

 

[Raw]

Chances created in 14/15 (38 games): 391, 6th best in the league
Chances created in 15/16 (38 games): 312, 17th best in the league
Chances created in 16/17 (23 games): 290, 3rd best in the league (at the current rate, will reach 480 after 38 games which would have been 3rd in 15/16 and 2nd in 14/15)

 

[King.of.Red]

I never change my channel again this season when I watch United match on tv.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Of course you can, a player can have a good game while being member of a bad collective.

Kind of. Although if a collective is really bad then individuals won't look good. And vice versa.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

According to whoscored:

2015-16 (LvG): Own Third: 24% Middle Third: 44% Opposition Third: 32% (possession stats)


Shots in 6 yard box: 5% Shots in 18 yard box: 51% Shots in Outside the Box: 45%

Shots pg: 11.3 Shot OT pg: 3.8






2016-17 (Mourinho): Own Third: 23% Middle Third: 45% Opposition Third: 32%

Shots in 6 yard box: 7% Shots in 18 yard box: 52% Shots in Outside the Box: 41%

Shots pg: 17 Shot OT pg: 6

Interesting. Territory surprisingly similar. Also scotches the idea that our improved shots pg is just speculative efforts from range.

 

[flappyjay]

Yeah in terms of Some stats and play we are better but you have consider the investments made the it does not look that good

 

[Rado_N]

According to whoscored:

2015-16 (LvG): Own Third: 24% Middle Third: 44% Opposition Third: 32% (possession stats)


Shots in 6 yard box: 5% Shots in 18 yard box: 51% Shots Outside the Box: 45%

Shots pg: 11.3 Shot OT pg: 3.8






2016-17 (Mourinho): Own Third: 23% Middle Third: 45% Opposition Third: 32%

Shots in 6 yard box: 7% Shots in 18 yard box: 52% Shots Outside the Box: 41%

Shots pg: 17 Shot OT pg: 6

Interesting, thanks.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Yeah in terms of Some stats and play we are better but you have consider the investments made the it does not look that good

How do you figure that? LvG spent over 250m. He was given more than enough money to make things "good". Surely it speaks volumes that most of his signings are either no longer here or fringe players?

Yes we've spent more again under Mourinho but I can only imagine where we would be if he had that budget for the last three summers and not just last summer.

 

[jackofalltrades]

Wasn't there a Europa League home game last season when the crowd gave a loud cheer in the second half - for our first shot ?

 

[JPRouve]

Kind of. Although if a collective is really bad then individuals won't look good. And vice versa.

There are nuissances though, you don't need all the individuals to play well collectively and all the individuals don't need a good collective to play well. For me we are generally not good collectively, we have our good moments, which I love and gives me hope that Mourinho will eventually find the correct recipe.

The difference at the moment compared to last season is that the players we brought during the summer are vastly superior to the players we had last year, they are able to make individual differences that their equivalents couldn't do, that's why we have more chances and that's why people are more excited. It's not because of an improved collective or tactical approach, at the moment Mourinho is borderline useless.

PS: I'm aware that I sound like a Mourinho hater but I'm not saying that he should be sacked, I'm just vexed by some fans who are in my opinion making up things because they particularly like the manager, the way they act is almost insulting for Mourinho because he has demonstrated in the past that he was a lot better than that.

 

[Raw]

Wasn't there a Europa League home game last season when the crowd gave a loud cheer in the second half - for our first shot ?

Maybe you're thinking of the FA Cup third round against Sheffield United at home?

 

[wolvored]

The best way to sum this up is by my mate whos a Wolves fan. He said I never bothered to watch Utd on TV last year, but I do now, the excitements back!
This is the way the young kids become tomorrows fans. Excitement not bored to death.

 

[flappyjay]

How do you figure that? LvG spent over 250m. He was given more than enough money to make things "good". Surely it speaks volumes that most of his signings are either no longer here or fringe players?

Yes we've spent more again under Mourinho but I can only imagine where we would be if he had that budget for the last three summers and not just last summer.

I am not here to support LVG , lvg can feck off as far as I am concerned. All I am saying is we spent a heap of money for a 5 point difference. I would sacrifice the entertainment for a 10 to 15 point improvement to be honest

 

[wolvored]

How do you figure that? LvG spent over 250m. He was given more than enough money to make things "good". Surely it speaks volumes that most of his signings are either no longer here or fringe players?

Yes we've spent more again under Mourinho but I can only imagine where we would be if he had that budget for the last three summers and not just last summer.

Well said.

 

[Woodzy]

We've certainly managed to turn those losses into draws!

But a loss can be a win. I'm not sure a draw can be a win. Therefore we are in a worse position.

 

[Hawks2008]

Not where I thought we'd be at the beginning of the season. In saying that, we are a totally different and much improved side upon last season. We're on the right path and any current struggles the team has doesn't vindicate LVG at all.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I am not here to support LVG , lvg can feck off as far as I am concerned. All I am saying is we spent a heap of money for a 5 point difference. I would sacrifice the entertainment for a 10 to 15 point improvement to be honest

You're talking as if 5 points is bugger all.

All four of Mourinho's signings have been successful and are integral to our team. I'm really not sure what the hell else he could have done in that regard, aside from spend more money?

 

[jackofalltrades]

Maybe you're thinking of the FA Cup third round against Sheffield United at home?

[/Q
That's exactly it but I thought it was Martial who shot.

 

[Nanotron]

I am not here to support LVG , lvg can feck off as far as I am concerned. All I am saying is we spent a heap of money for a 5 point difference. I would sacrifice the entertainment for a 10 to 15 point improvement to be honest

This just screams glory hunter. Maybe your not but considering what was served up to us over the last three years I cant think of any other reason on why you would have that opinion.

 

[Duafc]

Rojo looks capable of playing football.

Phil Jones

Hererras best season with us so far

Rooney benched

Zlatan on a free

We score late goals/comeback late/Fergietime again

 

[Freak]

I have found joy in watching Manchester United again. And that's all that matters for me after the past 3 seasons.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I am not here to support LVG , lvg can feck off as far as I am concerned. All I am saying is we spent a heap of money for a 5 point difference. I would sacrifice the entertainment for a 10 to 15 point improvement to be honest

6 point improvement. 8 if we win today. You'd sacrifice the entertainment for another couple of points?

 

[NessunDorma]

Per 90 minutes, we play more forward passes, have a better pass completion rate, create more chances, score more goals, take more shots, concede less goals, make fewer defensive errors and win more duels (i.e. tackles, take-ons).

See here.

Stats obviously don't tell the full story, but they do show an improvement over 2015/16 in pretty much every area of the pitch.

 

[red_john]

Don't be blinded by stats. Anyone who thinks we haven't made progress are deluded.

 

[NessunDorma]

Don't be blinded by stats. Anyone who thinks we haven't made progress are deluded.

The stats suggest progress anyway.

 

[SalfordRed1960]

Interesting. Territory surprisingly similar. Also scotches the idea that our improved shots pg is just speculative efforts from range.

Be interesting to see the shot stats from the non-new guys just to see if the legacy players have improved. My gut would say non have improved. Rashford, Mata, Martial still do not shoot that much, Lingard, Fellani and Herrera probably shoot the same amount. Would imply the new guys have had a positive impact. I would think zlatan is quite a bit in front of our best striker over the last 2 seasons at the same stage.

 

[#07]

Under LVG we'd have 3 shots and miss all three. Under Mou we will have 33 shots and miss all 33. Frustrating as it's been I much prefer life under Jose.

 

[BennyBlanco]

Under LVG we'd have 3 shots and miss all three. Under Mou we will have 33 shots and miss all 33. Frustrating as it's been I much prefer life under Jose.

We don't go ultra conservative with our attack to help us defensively now (I.e. less balls given away, low risk football).
Last season we had statistically the no.1/2 defence in the league but it came at the cost of our attacking play.
Under Mourinho we actually function as an attacking football team again, thats the biggest positive.

 

[sunama]

We're not relying on De Gea to save us every game with 3-4 match winning saves every game.

Those were dark times indeed.
This year, DDG is barely being called into action, because we are firmly camped in the opposition's half hammering shots at them, while their GK puts in MOTM performances.
It's definitely a step forward and if our finishing was as good as other top teams, we'd be competing with CFC for the title.

 

[TheSweeper]

People believe that Barcelona & Bayern were built in a day. No one in their right mind would compare LVG & Jose because they are completely & utterly 2 different managers.

Have you seen LVG's CV? He has won cr*p all & yet people are putting him up against a manager who is signed to win things.

LVG is a builder. His signings at all his clubs have been poor; yet normally overlooked because of his ability to kick some youth in to the system. Why is youth so important? Because they are more likely than superstars to play within their boundaries; play as a team rather than playing as Individuals.

The one thing in common with Bayern & Barcelona at their peak was that they were able to play with all 11 players. Individually players like Messi & Rpbben could be very individualistic yet they became much more valued because of their ability to actually interact with their team.

As boring as it was to you - who expected a manager who has won sod all to suddenly win things and play wonderful football with countless superstars - some here could see through the boring cold mist of LVG. That mentality of playing as a team is still there & will come to fruition one day. Sure he didn't coach Ronaldinho or Messi but he layed down a team working mentality in that club from the moment he was there that was carried by players who he did coach & resonated at the club.

What Jose has done is added some individual flair to a team that had a mentality of playing as a team.

There is progress on both sides.

If you ask me which is more valuable & harder? To try & implement a squad to play to strict teamwork - or add fine quality to a good basic team. I know what is more valuable for us in the long run.

 

[dichinero]

Process vs Pragmatic

Same difference

 

[Morpheus 7]

Van Gaal's football was beyond depressing. I genuinely think people forget already how negative it was. When you watched his United play you were left feeling dejected. Pass sideways, pass back, pass sideways one chance created in 90 minutes. With Jose it's wave after wave of attack with poor finishing, frustrating but at least entertaining. You could see how this can be rectified, Van Gaal's style was robotic and boring. United will get it right under Jose. Lvg had a good record against the big boys but then again got beat by dirt at Old Trafford. Jose can at least get a late goal now again and make us hard to beat. Van Gaal was so inconsistent. Jose's recruitment is much better too. We are in a final already and still in a few cup competition's to play for. This time next year this thread will be dead I think.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Be interesting to see the shot stats from the non-new guys just to see if the legacy players have improved. My gut would say non have improved. Rashford, Mata, Martial still do not shoot that much, Lingard, Fellani and Herrera probably shoot the same amount. Would imply the new guys have had a positive impact. I would think zlatan is quite a bit in front of our best striker over the last 2 seasons at the same stage.

2016-17:
Total Shots/OutofBox/6YardBox/PenaltyArea
1. Ibrahimovic: 4.3 1.3 0.5 2.5
2. Pogba: 3.5 2.0 0.1 1.4
3. Mata: 1.7 0.4 0.1 1.2
4. Rooney: 1.6 0.7 0.2 0.7
5. Lingard: 1.6 0.6 0.3 0.8
6. Mkhitaryan: 1.5 0.6 - 0.9
7. Martial: 1.5 0.7 0.8
8. Herrera: 1.5 1.3 - 0.2
9. Rashford: 1.2 0.1 0.2 0.9

Others have less than 1 shot pg. From them Fellaini, Rojo and Blind average 0.5, 0.4 and 0.3 shots pg respectively from the penalty area.

2015-16:
1. Rooney: 2.6 1.6 0.1 0.9
2. Depay: 2.0 1.2 - 0.7
3. Martial: 1.8 0.4 0.1 1.4
4. Mata: 1.5 0.6 - 0.9
5. Rashford: 1.5 0.3 - 1.2
6. Fellaini: 1.3 0.2 0.2 0.9
7. Lingard: 1.2 0.6 - 0.6
8. Herrera: 0.9 0.6 - 0.3

Others have less than 1 shot pg. I didn't include Hernandez and Januzaj because they weren't featured much that season.

Your gut feeling is right.

 

[TheSweeper]

BTW here we are playing a 35 year old upfront whilst Gabriel Jesus scores a double for City.

You know progress can be seen in so many ways.

 

[shaky]

I am not here to support LVG , lvg can feck off as far as I am concerned. All I am saying is we spent a heap of money for a 5 point difference. I would sacrifice the entertainment for a 10 to 15 point improvement to be honest

You rememebr the hype when players like Di Maria, Falcao, Memphis, Darmian, Schneiderlin, Martial etc rolled into Utd? A crazy amount of money spent that translated into very little, if any, progress on the pitch. It's not all about money spent. Jose has only brought in 4 players so far and they're all fitting in well. You can't blame Mourinho for Pogba's ridiculous price tag.

 

[TheSweeper]

You rememebr the hype when players like Di Maria, Falcao, Memphis, Darmian, Schneiderlin, Martial etc rolled into Utd? A crazy amount of money spent that translated into very little, if any, progress on the pitch. It's not all about money spent. Jose has only brought in 4 players so far and they're all fitting in well. You can't blame Mourinho for Pogba's ridiculous price tag.

If you know anything about LVG - you know that almost every single one of them are not his type of players & that was Woodward chucking money at anything possible to get us back in to the CL.

It worked - then we sold everyone & LVG said 'now you will see my team' - we got a squad full of youngsters with some average players as well. That is more akin to a LVG squad than that first year.

Anyway no point in backing someone who isn't here anymore just don't lilke selective memory.

 

[Ixion]

That should be another 2 points up on last season.

 

[shaky]

BTW here we are playing a 35 year old upfront whilst Gabriel Jesus scores a double for City.

You know progress can be seen in so many ways.

Jesus in, Aguero out? Jesus might be good, i'll not be sad to see the back of Aguero though, don't think it's going to make them any better overall.

 

[TheSweeper]

Jesus in, Aguero out? Jesus might be good, i'll not be sad to see the back of Aguero though, don't think it's going to make them any better overall.

That's not the point - in 3 years time a front 3 of sterling - Jesus - sane will be ahead of Rashford & Martial if they keep only getting games on the wing. The rotation based on form in game and off game is very poor.

 

[The Wanderer]

Last year we had 11.3 shots per game.

This year we have had 17 shots per game.

LVG wouldn't allow the team to shoot from range because it conceded possession.

It's no big deal we now take more shots !!