Signs of Progress | Mourinho vs Van Gaal

[Dr. Funkenstein]

I don't get this argument. The only way we could have conceivably improved under LVG is by going out and buying a couple of world beaters who might have secured more points in spite of a «philosophy» that obviously wasn't working.

You can't seriously think that LVG actually did a grand job implementing his system (a system that was right for United and the Premier League) - but that he simply suffered from unprecedented bad luck for 15 months?

Now, I didn't say that. I said he failed because he didn't get his style of football really going in his first 15 months. When he ran into his month of bad luck, he didn't have enough to relie on and get him and the team through, he should have been further by then it was too fragile to handle such a spell because those things can happen in football.

Mourinho's system isn't perfect either. But he has made us «hard to beat» without turning the entire team minus two or three attackers into robots (nervous robots, I should say) - and our counter attacks are much closer to actual United football than anything LVG served up.

As I already said, the counter football is adequate. The problem is that if you have to win a game you can't relie on counter football until you're ahead. Despite the presence of Zlatan and Mhki now, United is still very poor at breaking down a parked bus and that still isn't a joy to watch. The first 41 minutes were terrible yesterday, the 90 minutes against Hull were a bore. After Leicester let Mhki slip through it got much better, but what if they didn't? Some bottom feeders won't and United hasn't impressed against title challengers either.

Already writing off Pogba?

I already did at the euros where I had the first good look at him. On the scale of awareness, vision and imagination where Iniesta gets a 9, he's off at the other end. He's probably a nice intelligent young man, but when it comes to football brains he's as dumb as a pig's behind.

Signing him was a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned. Maybe he was expensive but we weren't really looking for bargains, we were rightly looking for the players to improve our team and I'm amazed that you think he hasn't. Apart from him, Jose signed Bailly and Mhki, each for about the same price as players like Benteke are going for. Oh, and a free Zlatan as well... You're clearly not a Jose fan but criticising him over his signings is crazy talk.

Bailly and Mhki are good signings, but this team isn't much at all without Zlatan. That's a great player, but probably not a great signing because he's getting too old for the PL very soon and showing signs already. On top of that it was lucky, in the sense that players like that usually aren't available at all, it's not the product of a sensible transfer policy.

As for the disappointing season? It was a slow start, granted, but I think you can forgive any new manager a few months of settling in, if things improve. Since then, we've kept pace with Chelsea points wise and we're accumulating points faster than every other top 6 team. We haven't deserved to lose one single game we've played since October. Not sure what more you are expecting at this point really.

It's not about me, I guess about everybody who wanted LvG out and Mourinho in since december 2016 had expected more. But maybe you can find some posts of Mourinho advocates from those days that claimed it would be all right if we were 6th in january, 14 points off the league leader. He wasn't hired to start a process... it's clear the fans don't have the stomach for that anyway. You can take your expectations and impressions and present them as facts, but they aren't.

But then again that was the same guy who insisted that Rooney wasn't haveing a bad season during his worst season ever under LVG mainly...

As with so many Mourinho fans, the truth is not convenient. I've never been that impressed with Rooney, because all through his career he had spells of poor form where his first touch went missing. The last few years, it wasn't a matter of form anymore, it went and never came back, not last year and not this year.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

He was actually fecking beyond lucky here, when you really think about it.

- He took over from a manager who finished 7th the previous season, SEVENTH. Expectations couldn't have been any lower for him, he literally just had to finish in the top four.
- He was given a budget over two summers beyond anything ever given before to a manager in the Premier League.
- In the two seasons he was here he had possibly the shittest top four ever in which Leicester fecking City won the league and every other top team bottled it completely
- He got a piss easy CL group which he failed to even get out of
- He got a piss easy FA Cup run which thankfully we won
- He had the best GK in the world regularly making wonder-saves to keep him in games
- He bought a relatively unknown youngster on deadline day who just so happened to be brilliant and scored 17 goals whilst all his major signings flopped massively

it's beyond shocking that he cocked it up to the point that we missed out on top four last season and couldn't get out of an unbelievably easy CL group. Un-fecking-lucky my hole, Dr. Funkenstein must have a brown nose from LvG's butthole.

Right on the money.

That poster was an utter sycophants during that period. It was nauseating.

 

[RedElf]

We're making progress, but alot more still needs to be done yet. Another summer transfer window or two.

 

[tomaldinho1]

The fact we are exciting to watch again is the biggest compliment tbh. Sure we aren't where we want to be but are now very close to getting into the top 4.

Whereas with VG I kind of expected 0-0 draws and were embarrassingly reliant on DDG to pick up scraps, we now play good stuff (usually) and if it weren't for opposition keepers having worldy games would be sitting pretty.

Progress is evident, team looks better and roll on the treble (Europa, League cup, FA cup)

 

[m1y2]

we are already not far, just need players to settle little more like Pogba, Shaw and Martial, need a good cover for LB who can play RB too, sell Darmian, Rooney and Fellaini, and add one more world class attacker - Griezmann/Mahrez/? preferably winger ', one strong defensive minded midfielder/holder. we already have partly cover for Herrera and Pogba in Pereira...

so we are not far but next season we should surely try to win league and champions league

 

[SalfordRed1960]

I think people over exaggerate the improvements, Obviously, better on the eye in some games, but we still have significant problems overcoming teams that are more defensive or close the players down quickly.

Rooney, Martial, Smalling, Rashford, Carrick, Blind are playing at a level below last season. We can probably dismiss Jones and Shaw because they hardly played due to injury over the last few years. Rojo has done well at CB, but still a liability when played LB. Lingard, Mata, Herrera probably the same at last year, it could be argued Mata is slightly worse.

On the plus side, when Miki plays we have a lot of movement, Pogba has parts of games where his talent shows through, but has lots of periods when he is too slow in his decision making. Bailly has looked good, bit raw at first, but gets better the more he plays at this level. Ibra gives a level of composure that the team has been lacking. Nothing to say, we wouldn't have or would have purchased players that would have had the same influence.

I think Jose has under performed for a variety of reasons, but mainly due to rotation (not allowing the team to gel), negative approach to EL and so on.

 

[432JuanMata]

Unbeaten in 15 games in the league yes 7 have been draws but can anybody remember and match where we were the worse team ??
I know being the better team doesn't give you points but in the long term it shows that in 15 games in a row no team has out played us. We are going in the right direction under Mou. Under LVG there was a period when he trashed Liverpool, City Villa and Spurs but then went back to being trash.

Overall At the start of the season if you said we be 6th in the league in Feb I would be unhappy but I'm not as I think we are on the up. Also still in all cups.

 

[TheSweeper]

Now, I didn't say that. I said he failed because he didn't get his style of football really going in his first 15 months. When he ran into his month of bad luck, he didn't have enough to relie on and get him and the team through, he should have been further by then it was too fragile to handle such a spell because those things can happen in football.


As I already said, the counter football is adequate. The problem is that if you have to win a game you can't relie on counter football until you're ahead. Despite the presence of Zlatan and Mhki now, United is still very poor at breaking down a parked bus and that still isn't a joy to watch. The first 41 minutes were terrible yesterday, the 90 minutes against Hull were a bore. After Leicester let Mhki slip through it got much better, but what if they didn't? Some bottom feeders won't and United hasn't impressed against title challengers either.


I already did at the euros where I had the first good look at him. On the scale of awareness, vision and imagination where Iniesta gets a 9, he's off at the other end. He's probably a nice intelligent young man, but when it comes to football brains he's as dumb as a pig's behind.


Bailly and Mhki are good signings, but this team isn't much at all without Zlatan. That's a great player, but probably not a great signing because he's getting too old for the PL very soon and showing signs already. On top of that it was lucky, in the sense that players like that usually aren't available at all, it's not the product of a sensible transfer policy.


It's not about me, I guess about everybody who wanted LvG out and Mourinho in since december 2016 had expected more. But maybe you can find some posts of Mourinho advocates from those days that claimed it would be all right if we were 6th in january, 14 points off the league leader. He wasn't hired to start a process... it's clear the fans don't have the stomach for that anyway. You can take your expectations and impressions and present them as facts, but they aren't.

As with so many Mourinho fans, the truth is not convenient. I've never been that impressed with Rooney, because all through his career he had spells of poor form where his first touch went missing. The last few years, it wasn't a matter of form anymore, it went and never came back, not last year and not this year.

Don't bother mate. People think football is easy; that every manager is hired to win things. Why anyone would even bother comparing LVG & Jose is beyond me. It's like asking someone what is sweeter - mangos or kiwis. People are so demanding of success at first hand that they can't even fathom the fact that a manager like LVG is hired for his ability to synergies a squad & by the end of his tenure - I think he achieved it. Less superstars & more teamwork.

LVG has won nothing for decades; yet he is continuously hired. You ask these Muppets why this is the case - they will be silent. He is probably the best manager at scrapping squads, making everybody play a single way (whether they like it or not), blooding youth & most importantly understanding that teamwork is fundamental to football.

Not many supporters see aspects of mentality other than winning mentality. The mentality of what LVG bought will be here for years to come & when the eventual fact that we will be the biggest club in the next 5 years; people will still be blind to the fact that the progression of the best clubs in football has moved alongside LVG's CV.

His tactics apart from the importance of retaining possession & his signings are largely insignificant because LVG is so stubborn that he would change the club from top to bottom if he could. We have come out with positives of his tenure that only LVG could bring. Simple as. That is why he is consistently hired by big clubs even after nearly relegating Barcelona & being underwhelming with Bayern.

Sure all these fans know about football but this damn football manager type of fan where success comes on a plate in straight lines is damn irritating.

I agree with you - he was unlucky- If we were not a big club he would have been given time to blood more youth more freely & try fitting them in to a formation that works for the whole squad; but he is only ever been hired for big clubs so that is tainting his legacy with unreal expectations. Would we have ever been winners? Far from it.

That is the Job for Jose.

 

[Cheesy]

Don't bother mate. People think football is easy; that every manager is hired to win things. Why anyone would even bother comparing LVG & Jose is beyond me. It's like asking someone what is sweeter - mangos or kiwis. People are so demanding of success at first hand that they can't even fathom the fact that a manager like LVG is hired for his ability to synergies a squad & by the end of his tenure - I think he achieved it. Less superstars & more teamwork.

LVG has won nothing for decades; yet he is continuously hired. You ask these Muppets why this is the case - they will be silent. He is probably the best manager at scrapping squads, making everybody play a single way (whether they like it or not), blooding youth & most importantly understanding that teamwork is fundamental to football.

Not many supporters see aspects of mentality other than winning mentality. The mentality of what LVG bought will be here for years to come & when the eventual fact that we will be the biggest club in the next 5 years; people will still be blind to the fact that the progression of the best clubs in football has moved alongside LVG's CV.

Sorry but this is nonsense. If you're a top club, then yes, managers are hired to win things. Not finish 5th after spending absurd amounts of money.

LVG didn't synergies our squad - he got it to play dull, lethargic football which lacked any sense of movement or rhythm, and which ultimately led to us recording an appallingly low goals total. We weren't particularly good when it came to teamwork: the role of players like Rooney, who was shifted to wherever we had to fit him into, was often unclear and inconsistent. Martial was shifted onto the wing to accommodate him, while we often resorted to Fellaini once we were out of other ideas. Players like Depay and Schneiderlin were brought in with lots of hype but failed to gel and have been moved on.

You're wrong on him having not won anything for decades: he won the double with Bayern in 2010, and was quite literally a game away from the treble. The year before that he won the Dutch League with AZ.

LVG's a great manager who's done great things over the years. He did alright in 14/15 but last season was a disaster, full of awful football, and a failure to meet the most basic expectations of getting into the top four. These weird attempts to excuse him for that, or to suggest he's in any way responsible for our future successes - when a number of his key signings and players have already been moved on - is nonsense. He was crap. We were crap last season and he takes a heavy portion of the blame for that, considering what he spent.

 

[TheSweeper]

Sorry but this is nonsense. If you're a top club, then yes, managers are hired to win things. Not finish 5th after spending absurd amounts of money.

LVG didn't synergies our squad - he got it to play dull, lethargic football which lacked any sense of movement or rhythm, and which ultimately led to us recording an appallingly low goals total. We weren't particularly good when it came to teamwork: the role of players like Rooney, who was shifted to wherever we had to fit him into, was often unclear and inconsistent. Martial was shifted onto the wing to accommodate him, while we often resorted to Fellaini once we were out of other ideas. Players like Depay and Schneiderlin were brought in with lots of hype but failed to gel and have been moved on.

You're wrong on him having not won anything for decades: he won the double with Bayern in 2010, and was quite literally a game away from the treble. The year before that he won the Dutch League with AZ.

LVG's a great manager who's done great things over the years. He did alright in 14/15 but last season was a disaster, full of awful football, and a failure to meet the most basic expectations of getting into the top four. These weird attempts to excuse him for that, or to suggest he's in any way responsible for our future successes - when a number of his key signings and players have already been moved on - is nonsense. He was crap. We were crap last season and he takes a heavy portion of the blame for that, considering what he spent.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.mi...-bayern-6656593.amp?client=ms-android-htc-rev

Coming from a player who hated him & then appreciated him after success. Check out Xavi iniesta puypl valdes schweinsteiger alaba for more. There's more to things than meet the eye. Anyway there's two sides to the fence - I'm sure you heard my side before as I have heard yours.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The philosophy game, summed up: When there's nothing tangible to point to, you simply turn to the intangible. The long term effects of LVG's teaching, which may manifest themselves in any shape or form, at any time subsequent to his departure.

Like I said last season, LVG's disciples will be golden no matter what happens. Sooner or later someone will have us win something - and then it may be attributed, one way or the other, to LVG.

 

[shaky]

You can take your expectations and impressions and present them as facts, but they aren't.

Funny because that's exactly what you've done with your very rose tinted specs version of LVGs history here, and your assesment of Pogba, who was in the team of the year in Italy 3 years running but you decided how awful he is from your "first good look at him" at the Euros. Here's a fact for you. If it wasn't for Mourinho having to spend the first quarter of the season getting the Utd players to forget LVG football, we'd be within touching distance of Chelsea right now instead of making up for lost time and fighting our way into the top 4.

 

[Cheesy]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.mi...-bayern-6656593.amp?client=ms-android-htc-rev

Coming from a player who hated him & then appreciated him after success. Check out Xavi iniesta puypl valdes schweinsteiger alaba for more. There's more to things than meet the eye. Anyway there's two sides to the fence - I'm sure you heard my side before as I have heard yours.

And he had stuff to show for that spell at Bayern...because he won a double. He was still terrible here. What other players say about his previous spells elsewhere doesn't address his utter failure to meet expectations despite spending tons of money, and the tumescent, dire football we played.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This thread is about "signs of progress". What conclusively proves that Van Gaal did a terrible job is the lack of any of these signs between his first and second season in charge. You don't get much more concrete evidence of managerial incompetence.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

You don't get much more concrete evidence of managerial incompetence.

Correct. But LVG disciples don't care about concrete evidence. When it suits them they don't even consider LVG a football manager (who is supposed to improve an actual team fighting for points), but as a spiritual presence whose main function is to enlighten and teach for future gains.

For the record I think LVG knows a thing or two about football, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if some of our players learned something useful from him. But that does not amount to some sort of foundation or legacy the club will benefit from in the years to come. It's the ridiculous promotion of the latter idea, blown out of all proportion, which makes people laugh at the LVG congregation.

Anyway, back to Mourinho.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

Don't bother mate. People think football is easy; that every manager is hired to win things. Why anyone would even bother comparing LVG & Jose is beyond me. It's like asking someone what is sweeter - mangos or kiwis. People are so demanding of success at first hand that they can't even fathom the fact that a manager like LVG is hired for his ability to synergies a squad & by the end of his tenure - I think he achieved it. Less superstars & more teamwork.

LVG has won nothing for decades; yet he is continuously hired. You ask these Muppets why this is the case - they will be silent. He is probably the best manager at scrapping squads, making everybody play a single way (whether they like it or not), blooding youth & most importantly understanding that teamwork is fundamental to football.

Not many supporters see aspects of mentality other than winning mentality. The mentality of what LVG bought will be here for years to come & when the eventual fact that we will be the biggest club in the next 5 years; people will still be blind to the fact that the progression of the best clubs in football has moved alongside LVG's CV.

His tactics apart from the importance of retaining possession & his signings are largely insignificant because LVG is so stubborn that he would change the club from top to bottom if he could. We have come out with positives of his tenure that only LVG could bring. Simple as. That is why he is consistently hired by big clubs even after nearly relegating Barcelona & being underwhelming with Bayern.

Sure all these fans know about football but this damn football manager type of fan where success comes on a plate in straight lines is damn irritating.

I really doubt that. Some of the stuff I read here, like 'it was a 5-3-2 in defence and 4-3-3 in attack' or 'it was more like a 4-2-1-2-1', there's this big bowl of stats they grab in tot find the one that suits their opinion, the pundits are probably taken at least remotely seriously but people like Shearer and Soeness are often talking pure nonsense, and I can remember Scholes explaining the concept of triangles like it was something new. Last year I got laughed at because I said Conte was one of today's best managers.

They might know about traditional British football for sure, but that's just a part of football and it's been getting a less important of football for decades. I even get the feeling they just appreciate SAF because he brought them silverware. There is something special about the PL that is hard to know for foreign managers, but England's finest are in the relegation battle for a reason.

I agree with you - he was unlucky- If we were not a big club he would have been given time to blood more youth more freely & try fitting them in to a formation that works for the whole squad; but he is only ever been hired for big clubs so that is tainting his legacy with unreal expectations. Would we have ever been winners? Far from it.

That is the Job for Jose.

I don't agree. Football is about winning, fans shouldn't be too impatient and they were, helped by the press, but it took him too much time. At Bayern he had the turn around after about half a season, the fans there got impatient too, but he did the magnificient job of changing the football style of the entire club for many years to come and win the double and very nearly the treble in the process. At United it was only the beginning of december it became clear what he was working on (Tottenham away), his first spell that it started to work was somewhere at the end of april and may, but after a few good results and good matches the season ended with slow passing and moving again, and the next season it never really took off. Then there was this horrible december with all of that bad luck, but if he had progressed more in the months before they could have handled that.

I believe he just overestimated almost everything, the club, the board, the players and English football in general. The players didn't get it, could do as told but couldn't play with creativity and imagination within that set up and even couldn't handle beeing told what they did wrong and they were short on technique and awareness anyway. The board turned out not to be committed to a continental playing style and young players at all and went behind his back to Mourinho, undermining his authority. The fans where acting like typical top club in decline fans, desperate and claiming to be prepared to sacrifice entertainment just as long as it's good for the long term, but when the worst panic is over and the ship is steadied, they become impatient and very demanding immediately, expecting results and entertainment like in the best days of Ferguson, which Ferguson couldn't have come close to himself. He probably did underestimate the effect of the pace of the PL on his style a bit, and the patience of the press, just waiting and waiting until he was weakened by a bad run of results.

I don't believe he has left a legacy, that takes the cooperation of the board and his successor. They don't care and Mourinho wanted to avoid any credit going to LvG from the start anyway. That's what bothers me most, Van Gaal made mistakes and paid the price, unfair maybe but football isn't about fairness to managers. With hiring Mourinho the board killed off the policy of youth players, so there's no policy at all, and the modern continental style too, so there's no United style at all, it will just change with the manager. It's just spending big and hope individual brilliance will win it with counter attacks. With a different manager who'd play a continental style and followed a youth policy I would be much more confident about the future. Watching Dortmund play worries me a lot in case United might clinch 4th, and the Glazers are protecting their investment now by investing more, but in the end they are in it for the money. China starts to compete on money, Spain competes on the good life and money, Italy will recover and Germany is on the rise with great crowds and atmosphere and unpolluted football culture. Brexit is coming, pound might devaluate considerably, TV-money and tickets are stretched to the point of breaking, how is United going to challenge for the CL in the future? Youth and teamwork could turn out to have been the best chance.

 

[Tapori]

Jose's biggest compliment is that even in the post-match presser, he talked about having to play "The United Way."

Look at our unbeaten League run. No way were we playing even close to that style under LVG. (Ok the pre-Leicester 5-3 defeat was tasty)

A wooly concept possibly, but it also points to the fact that he knows he can't simply win, he has to win with style and attacking verve. The first steps are a solid defense. His time at Madrid will help him in this.

I really liked LVG - crazy dude - but he was just too stubborn and frustrating for our club. Did good things, but Mourinho will bring back our form to where we were under Fergie, I have no doubt.

Mourinho's challenge will not be winning with this team; He will.

It will be if he decides to stay long enough to Challenge himself and build the second winning team with our youth. That is a challenge I genuinely think he will aim for. He craves a legendary status. That would put him amongst the greats in his own eyes. After all, he cites Sir Alex as "The Boss," for a reason. That is respect.

It will be fun.

 

[Rossa]

It's still shockingly frustrating to watch but more in a "how the hell are we not winning this" blue-balls sort of way as opposed to a "this is so boring" flaccid way.

I feel this post is eerily connected to your nick.

 

[VanGaalEra]

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[RedPnutz]

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Well, all things aside, 16/17 conversion rate is 8.8%. 15/16 is 11.4% and 14/15 is 13.2%.

We are more efficient at scoring during LVG regime and I hope under Mourinho we can achieve those percentages too.

 

[NotQuiteManc]

Getting better, but I think based on Mou's recent interview where he stated that the United job is difficult, I guess he already found out there are a lot of faults in the team at the moment. Young had the form of his life playing fullbacks last season with LvG but he shouldn't be anywhere near United squad at the moment. With the emergence of young talents like TFM and Rashford, the slots should be given to these players now.

 

[Drz]

I'm not at the edge of my seat right now either, and that's not the first time this season. This and simular topics show how much the mood is changed rather than the football has improved. It could be terribly tumescent with Van Gaal, but we've all so seen a lot of very exciting matches and quick link-up play up front. The difference is Zlatan Ibrahimovic, the fact that the opponents attack more which makes it more exciting too, and that there are more counter attacks. The counter attacks are usually good, but I'm not impressed with Mourinho's attacking play against the parked buses at all. But last year the players seemed to lose confidence in the tactics with only 10 minutes to go and a goal to score, I haven't seen that to that degree this year.

That's probably down to the press who had been out for the manager's head and waiting for their chance. Now it's about shots rather than shots on target, and they aren't milked to create a mood. It was never a bad luck last year, which there was a terrible lot of. It wasn't about the referees but LvG probably got a lot worse deal because he refused to blame others for a bad performance. I can't remember LvG escaping 3 dark red cards early in matches. Now it's supposed to be down to the poor finishing, but it was never about that last season, nor about the poor last passes.


This is another example. Mourinho spent a lot more, but it hardly ever gets mentioned and when it gets mentioned there's not a 100 million added to it. When DiMaria got sold on with only about a 10 million loss it never got deducted from his spending.

Of course Mourinho is responsible for the worst buy of the century. He spent an all time record fee on a player that will disrupt any fluidity in midfield because he has no awareness at all. A signing that was poor judgement or just didn't work out can happen to any manager, but the problem with Pogba is that it will be hard to sell hem on for more than 30 million.

Van Gaal failed because never got his playing style really going in the 15 months up to his spell of very bad luck. The problem is that Mourinho already got his playing style going, this is about it, it isn't going to get much better other than through better and even more expensive players, which is going to be difficult with Ibra at 35. As I understood it, the board decided a year ago to abandon the ambition of playing a more modern continental style of football and the systemic choice for young players, to get a manager who was a guarantee for a short term title challenge with high profile signings. Away with process and philosophy, instant success was what's required. I personally didn't expect that much from Mourinho and wanted United to follow through with youth and a (more) continental playing style, but for those who have been wanting him since january 2016 this season must already be a big disappointment.

But it's the optimism that's sounding louder, probably because there's no other option than optimism. There's no PL-proven top manager hiding in the curtains to get all your hopes up for this time. Another manager sacked would mean there's a problem with the club now SAF has retired and that would be an uncomfortable truth.

Very good post, I very much agree with all you have said. LvG defo had his share of absolutely rotten luck too. I still can't get over the amount injuries or the how the papers actually turned on him because our players were crying about training being too harsh/difficult. Ironically Marco Silva has just been credited for increasing the intensity of his training sessions, in Hull's recent upturn of form.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

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The stats from Van Gaal's first and second season should be in a thread called "Signs of Regress". That's a disgraceful lack of progress for a manager who was given so much money to spend. Fecking fraud.

 

[VP]

In some ways, I admire the LVG fanboys. Stubborn, passionate but ultimately full of hot air - much like the man they adore.

 

[VanGaalEra]

The stats from Van Gaal's first and second season should be in a thread called "Signs of Regress". That's a disgraceful lack of progress for a manager who was given so much money to spend. Fecking fraud.

Another one for you and your love for LVG

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[Pogue Mahone]

Another one for you and your love for LVG

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Yeah, that was a bugbear of mine for most of his time in charge.

 

[hn4manunited]

I definitely see progress in the way we're approaching the matches. Also, progress in player mentality.

 

[SqueakyWeasel]

I think we're starting to crack this nut! Lets get a few cups and CL position this year and buy good in the summer. Next year Champions or nothing!

 

[Marcelinho87]

Van Gaal absolutely killed the mood around Old Trafford and i think it's only just recovering now. The fans are starting to believe and get excited about where we are going again. I don't care about points or stat comparisons, more what i see and hear when I'm at the game.

Moyes did terribly but van Gaal for two years was the worst thing that's happened to us in recent times.

Sorry but I will never accept this.

Moyes is the one who took us to the shit we are recovering from now, LVG while boring got us in the CL at least and brought us our first post SAF silverware.

feck Moyes.

 

[dove]

Of course we improved since last year... We are very hard to beat ( yeah, Moyes would be proud ) but goalscoring is a big problem. I think Jose expected that Rooney would be able to score ~15 goals and they would be our main threat with Ibra... However he quickly realised Rooney is finished and benched him so we have only 1 player scoring goals...

 

[FrantikChicken]

I really doubt that. Some of the stuff I read here, like 'it was a 5-3-2 in defence and 4-3-3 in attack' or 'it was more like a 4-2-1-2-1', there's this big bowl of stats they grab in tot find the one that suits their opinion, the pundits are probably taken at least remotely seriously but people like Shearer and Soeness are often talking pure nonsense, and I can remember Scholes explaining the concept of triangles like it was something new. Last year I got laughed at because I said Conte was one of today's best managers.

They might know about traditional British football for sure, but that's just a part of football and it's been getting a less important of football for decades. I even get the feeling they just appreciate SAF because he brought them silverware. There is something special about the PL that is hard to know for foreign managers, but England's finest are in the relegation battle for a reason.

I don't agree. Football is about winning, fans shouldn't be too impatient and they were, helped by the press, but it took him too much time. At Bayern he had the turn around after about half a season, the fans there got impatient too, but he did the magnificient job of changing the football style of the entire club for many years to come and win the double and very nearly the treble in the process. At United it was only the beginning of december it became clear what he was working on (Tottenham away), his first spell that it started to work was somewhere at the end of april and may, but after a few good results and good matches the season ended with slow passing and moving again, and the next season it never really took off. Then there was this horrible december with all of that bad luck, but if he had progressed more in the months before they could have handled that.

I believe he just overestimated almost everything, the club, the board, the players and English football in general. The players didn't get it, could do as told but couldn't play with creativity and imagination within that set up and even couldn't handle beeing told what they did wrong and they were short on technique and awareness anyway. The board turned out not to be committed to a continental playing style and young players at all and went behind his back to Mourinho, undermining his authority. The fans where acting like typical top club in decline fans, desperate and claiming to be prepared to sacrifice entertainment just as long as it's good for the long term, but when the worst panic is over and the ship is steadied, they become impatient and very demanding immediately, expecting results and entertainment like in the best days of Ferguson, which Ferguson couldn't have come close to himself. He probably did underestimate the effect of the pace of the PL on his style a bit, and the patience of the press, just waiting and waiting until he was weakened by a bad run of results.

I don't believe he has left a legacy, that takes the cooperation of the board and his successor. They don't care and Mourinho wanted to avoid any credit going to LvG from the start anyway. That's what bothers me most, Van Gaal made mistakes and paid the price, unfair maybe but football isn't about fairness to managers. With hiring Mourinho the board killed off the policy of youth players, so there's no policy at all, and the modern continental style too, so there's no United style at all, it will just change with the manager. It's just spending big and hope individual brilliance will win it with counter attacks. With a different manager who'd play a continental style and followed a youth policy I would be much more confident about the future. Watching Dortmund play worries me a lot in case United might clinch 4th, and the Glazers are protecting their investment now by investing more, but in the end they are in it for the money. China starts to compete on money, Spain competes on the good life and money, Italy will recover and Germany is on the rise with great crowds and atmosphere and unpolluted football culture. Brexit is coming, pound might devaluate considerably, TV-money and tickets are stretched to the point of breaking, how is United going to challenge for the CL in the future? Youth and teamwork could turn out to have been the best chance.

I don't really agree with this. Mourinho has specifically mentioned a few times that there's an expectation at Man Utd to play a certain way, and he's obviously trying to get us there. It's not happening every game but the signs are definitely there. As far as youth, Bailly is 22, Pogba is 23, and they're both integral parts of the starting lineup. You then have Rashford and Lingard getting quite a bit of game time, plus hopefully Martial will start getting more games soon as well. For a team that has been under-performing and absolutely NEEDS to deliver as soon as possible, I think Mourinho is actually putting a lot of trust in young players.

 

[El-Manos]

I'm not at the edge of my seat right now either, and that's not the first time this season. This and simular topics show how much the mood is changed rather than the football has improved. It could be terribly tumescent with Van Gaal, but we've all so seen a lot of very exciting matches and quick link-up play up front. The difference is Zlatan Ibrahimovic, the fact that the opponents attack more which makes it more exciting too, and that there are more counter attacks. The counter attacks are usually good, but I'm not impressed with Mourinho's attacking play against the parked buses at all. But last year the players seemed to lose confidence in the tactics with only 10 minutes to go and a goal to score, I haven't seen that to that degree this year.

That's probably down to the press who had been out for the manager's head and waiting for their chance. Now it's about shots rather than shots on target, and they aren't milked to create a mood. It was never a bad luck last year, which there was a terrible lot of. It wasn't about the referees but LvG probably got a lot worse deal because he refused to blame others for a bad performance. I can't remember LvG escaping 3 dark red cards early in matches. Now it's supposed to be down to the poor finishing, but it was never about that last season, nor about the poor last passes.


This is another example. Mourinho spent a lot more, but it hardly ever gets mentioned and when it gets mentioned there's not a 100 million added to it. When DiMaria got sold on with only about a 10 million loss it never got deducted from his spending.

Of course Mourinho is responsible for the worst buy of the century. He spent an all time record fee on a player that will disrupt any fluidity in midfield because he has no awareness at all. A signing that was poor judgement or just didn't work out can happen to any manager, but the problem with Pogba is that it will be hard to sell hem on for more than 30 million.

Van Gaal failed because never got his playing style really going in the 15 months up to his spell of very bad luck. The problem is that Mourinho already got his playing style going, this is about it, it isn't going to get much better other than through better and even more expensive players, which is going to be difficult with Ibra at 35. As I understood it, the board decided a year ago to abandon the ambition of playing a more modern continental style of football and the systemic choice for young players, to get a manager who was a guarantee for a short term title challenge with high profile signings. Away with process and philosophy, instant success was what's required. I personally didn't expect that much from Mourinho and wanted United to follow through with youth and a (more) continental playing style, but for those who have been wanting him since january 2016 this season must already be a big disappointment.

But it's the optimism that's sounding louder, probably because there's no other option than optimism. There's no PL-proven top manager hiding in the curtains to get all your hopes up for this time. Another manager sacked would mean there's a problem with the club now SAF has retired and that would be an uncomfortable truth.

What a ridiculous statement. Hopefully you will still be present amongst us next season when he is banging goals & assists, left, right and centre and you will be looking back at that statement in utter disgust.

 

[Problem-free Philosophy]

Just to add to the Squawka stats posted above:

2014/15: 304 shots, 40 goals. 23 conceded (+17)
2015/16: 273 shots, 31 goals. 21 conceded (+10)
2016/17: 409 shots, 36 goals. 21 conceded (+15)

I can't imagine why anyone would prefer the football we had under Van Gaal to what we're seeing now. The longer Van Gaal was here the less risks the players took and the more and more boring the games became. The results may not be so different and we still have room for improvement now etc. but the worst of our performances this season have been on par with the average from last year in my opinion. We did have some good results against top sides under Van Gaal though. I don't want to downplay the FA Cup achievement but it's worth remembering the run had to get there. Surely one of the easiest we could hope for?

Sheffield United > Derby County > Shrewsbury > West Ham > Everton > Palace (And we nearly buggared it up a few times).

As far as this season is concerned I think we are just missing clinical finishing to open games up. That first goal is absolutely crucial and we've been guilty of not getting it despite having gilt-edged chances to do so. It's been a combination of poor finishing and, especially earlier in the season, lacking a bit of luck. There haven't been too many games where we've been completely lethargic and unable to create chances.

Here's a comparison of the last 5 seasons btw:

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m..._scored/saves/goals_conceded/clean_sheets#avg

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Sheffield United > Derby County > Shrewsbury > West Ham > Everton > Palace (And we nearly buggared it up a few times).

Every time we faced PL opposition, basically.

 

[NextSeason]

We'd be second if we had won those home draws against Burnley, Stoke and Arsenal which we clearly should have.

Then you have the draws against Everton, which Fellani threw away last minute, and Mata missing two open goals against Stoke (A) and Hull (H).

Would be close to Chelsea if all those draws were wins but if my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle and all that.

Football is generally more exciting to watch than the Moyes/LvG teams and our squad is much stronger overall.

Something tells me I'm into something good.

 

[Mr Anderson]

Also, pronunciation of progress as "progress", is progress.

Not in previous seasons: "this progresssh is a part of this processh......shshshshsh"

 

[SirMattBugsby]

Last season: We didn't look like scoring.
This season: We look like scoring.

That is our progress.

 

[shaky]

Last season: We didn't look like scoring.
This season: We look like scoring.

That is our progress.

Last season: Lucky to come away with draws.
This season: Unlucky to come away with draws.

 

[SirMattBugsby]

Last season: Lucky to come away with draws.
This season: Unlucky to come away with draws.

Another one

Last season: Our GK had blinders.
This season: Their GKs have blinders.

 

[pocco]

Sorry but I will never accept this.

Moyes is the one who took us to the shit we are recovering from now, LVG while boring got us in the CL at least and brought us our first post SAF silverware.

feck Moyes.

And i can't accept this. It doesn't take 3 fecking years to recover from a man that was in charge for less than one season. He was not great but in hindsight he had an aged squad that did nothing after Fergie retired and many of which took a big step down afterwards. The players he brought in have featured prominently every season since. Look at Van Gaals transfer record...

Van Gaal frittered money away on average players, but the main thing is he ripped the enjoyment and soul out of the club. The fans were bored to tears and devoid of any confidence in the direction we were going. And that went on for two years.