Signs of Progress | Mourinho vs Van Gaal

[VanGaalEra]

After 25 games for the last 7 seasons:

2010-11: 54 Points
2011-12: 57 Points
2012-13: 62 Points
2013-14: 41 Points
2014-15: 47 Points
2015-16: 41 Points
2016-17: 48 Points

Really shows how big the fall is when Fergie retired, though that's obvious at this point. That 2012/13 season...

Also shows how shit Moyes was. 21(!) points less than the season before, after only 25 games.

If we had 48 points from 25 games in the last few years, we'd be:

2010-11: 4th
2011-12: 4th
2012-13: 3rd
2013-14: 4th
2014-15: 3rd
2015-16: 4th

Completely pointless hypotheticals of course, but it does go to show how competitive the top 4 race is this year.

62 points, wow!

I expect us to finish with the highest points tally since SAF retired (64, 70 and 66). We really need to ensure we end up with 76 points for the top 4 spot.

 

[RedMaestro]

We are better against the weaker sides under Mourinho, but abysmal against the top teams compared to LVG. Got to score more goals.

Isn't this due to them playing defensively and pressing which is what they are good at? Trying to "ruin" the opponents creativity is easier than the team themselves trying to be creative. The game has really changed. Mourinho said it good, when he managed Chelsea and played defensively it was called bad, but when the top teams do it now it's amazing. The game has clearly changed - Fabregas said it well the other day - from metro.co.uk:

‘I don’t think my physical abilities are the best – I’m not the quickest, I’m not the strongest, I’m not the sharpest, so you have to be ahead of the game if a player like me wants to succeed in football,’ said Fabregas.

‘That’s what makes me very proud because right now everyday you see less talent and more power and players running around.
‘To be a football player today if you are very strong or you run a lot or stuff like that it’s easier.


‘Today it’s more difficult for the more talented players to succeed.’That’s why I’m grateful and that’s why I try to get even better because football is growing in a way that before I don’t think it was.’



Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/08/cesc-fabregas-says-its-easier-for-players-who-just-run-around-to-succeed-in-the-premier-league-6435419/#ixzz4YT6yPvKP

 

[sunama]

We might still be having Di Maria and maybe chicarito probably Nani if not for LVG.. also never once i fell asleep watching this side, whereas LVG cured my insomnia. Good man LVG.

The bizarre thing was that LVG repeatedly claimed that his team played attacking football.

 

[sunama]

Also shows how shit Moyes was. 21(!) points less than the season before, after only 25 games.

Moyes was an absolute disaster, in every way. There is no part of what he did in those 10 months, which could be seen as a positive.
He then got a job in Spain...got fired.
He then got a job with Sunderland and has got them to the bottom of the table.
So, at least he is consistent at being bad at football management.
The guy is like the grim reaper - wherever he goes, he bring doom, gloom and bad news.

 

[Borys]

Big surprise is how offensive approach he presents lately. Big, big plus.

 

[TheSweeper]

LVG rebalanced the squad to a more younger team that could to some degree play really tactically. We wernt great at it but him forcefully telling the team to abide by his tactics would have made the job a little easier for Jose & his tactics in terms of mentality to abiding rules.

Jose has improved us in the more substantial way - adding key players in to key positions & allowing a bit more freedom in play.

The big games needs bigger focus on tactics & Jose has yet to see his tactics fully implemented by the squad.

 

[GM K]

Much better. The stats prove it. The style proves it. Fans feel better. Many of the players have improved - Valencia, Rojo, Jones, Herrera, etc. The new personnel have been mostly consistent and have added quality to the team.

What I have seen in United this season have shown me just how good Jose Mourinho is. To come from the worst season of his career with a reputation of playing dull, defensive football to taking United back to being a largely exciting team, says a lot about his adaptability - a trait the best managers in the game possess.

 

[All 3 United]

Another important stat. We have turned up on time for every fixture!

The man couldn't even get us to games on time!!

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Improvements under Mourinho from LVG era:
- Less boring football
- Players used in actual positions
- No occurrence of situations like taking 75 minutes to have a shot at home to Sheffield United
- Winning of games by actually deserving to win them
- Noticeable game plan
- Less injuries
- Non repeated use of players in roles they are clearly not suited to play in.
- Lack of self contradictory nonsense spouted in post match interviews.
- Urge to stop watching United games before they finish due to desire to get on with life, no longer there.
- Results, goals scored, etc. Plus general belief in the team's ability to improve and win things.

Improvements under LVG from Moyes era:
- Slight improvement in Ashley Young performances
- No interviews in which manager basically claims team is shite
- Trees planted at the training ground
- Ability to win games due to hero superman goalkeeper rather than by actually being any good.
- Progressed an extra round in the League Cup, or something.
- Managed to actually get Luke Shaw to not look like a fraud...for about 4 games.

It's absurd that I can't argue with any of that

What an embarrassment we have Been for about 3 years

 

[narnar]

I remember hearing the commentator say we've already had more shots on target now than in the whole of last season. I think, by the end of said season, Zlatan alone will have had more!

Heard the commentator mention this too.

 

[Attila]

I remember hearing the commentator say we've already had more shots on target now than in the whole of last season. I think, by the end of said season, Zlatan alone will have had more!

Heard the commentator mention this too.

 

[narnar]

Close enough!

 

[Howzit_Bru]

We might still be having Di Maria and maybe chicarito probably Nani if not for LVG.. also never once i fell asleep watching this side, whereas LVG cured my insomnia. Good man LVG.

I doubt that Mourinho would want Di Maria in the English league. He is not known for his defensive play and has not lit up the league in France. Hernandez is a poacher but doesn't offer much else. He has recently come off a 1400 minute goal drought. Nani was a great match winner on his day but was very inconsistent.
I'm amazed at how history gets revised to make a point.
The squad needed overhauling. LVG did that. Some players were good. Others were not. Happens under every manager.

 

[MJJ]

I doubt that Mourinho would want Di Maria in the English league. He is not known for his defensive play and has not lit up the league in France. Hernandez is a poacher but doesn't offer much else. He has recently come off a 1400 minute goal drought. Nani was a great match winner on his day but was very inconsistent.
I'm amazed at how history gets revised to make a point.
The squad needed overhauling. LVG did that. Some players were good. Others were not. Happens under every manager.

Which were good under lvg?

 

[sugar_kane]

I'd love to know behind the scenes what on earth went on last season, and what the players, board and figures like Giggs really thought.

It was a disaster but not in the same way the Moyes season was where we just went to complete shite lead by a spineless wretch, but in the sense of one man dismantling everything this club had been built on for the last 140 years, and at the same time being absolutely convinced he was on the path of rightousness.

Mourinho deserves massive credit for getting us back on track and playing the kind of football our fans want to see so quickly, even if we haven't had exactly the results we wanted (especially at the start of the season). I'm not sure anyone else could have achieved this so quickly, nor would have had the stomach for the fight.

 

[m1y2]

we are consistently getting to the top4 while playing more than good enough football, if we were more clinical and and its pretty amazing how many chances we missed this season we are simply sitting top, the biggest and nicest surprise for me is the brand of football we play

 

[Howzit_Bru]

Which were good under lvg?

Which players? Joint best defense last season so I would argue the back 4 was decent.
Along with Martial, Rashford and Lingard.

 

[Rightnr]

We finished last season with 66 points IIRC. We are on track to finish with well above 70 this year while playing much, much better football but also having to contend with much stronger opposition at the top.

It is not even a question whether we are better off this year. I am confident Mourinho would have been in the title race last year, even with that squad.

 

[Seven Seas Sardines]

Which players? Joint best defense last season so I would argue the back 4 was decent.
Along with Martial, Rashford and Lingard.

As it's been noted countless times we had a goalkeeper playing out of his skin, while slow possession football ensured record numbers of 0-0s..

 

[Howzit_Bru]

As it's been noted countless times we had a goalkeeper playing out of his skin, while slow possession football ensured record numbers of 0-0s..

So you are saying that the defense was bad? I would argue that our attack was bad. Or is it your opinion that everything was bad?

 

[Raees]

We will win 2 trophies instead of one I think by the end of the year

 

[Seven Seas Sardines]

So you are saying that the defense was bad? I would argue that our attack was bad. Or is it your opinion that everything was bad?

Nail meets head.

 

[sunama]

Which players? Joint best defense last season so I would argue the back 4 was decent.

Back 4 was not decent.
If they were so damn good, why did we play with 2 DMs? Our entire midfield used to defend.
And why did DDG need to make so many saves?
The simple truth is that as a team and GK, we were good defensively (the statistics show this), but our back 4 were pretty average, if not poor.

As it's been noted countless times we had a goalkeeper playing out of his skin, while slow possession football ensured record numbers of 0-0s..

Indeed.

So you are saying that the defense was bad? I would argue that our attack was bad. Or is it your opinion that everything was bad?

Attack was terrible. Lets not try and disguise this. Martial was our best attacker and he only scored 11 league goals! Ibra, who many fans complain about, is on 15, already.
And our defence repeatedly required DDG to bail them out. I saw many instances last season, where once the ball was past our midfield, the ball would by-pass our defence (they were useless) and go straight to DDG.
A top 5 side, with it's GK as POTY is astonishing.

I do lay the blame of all of this on the tactics employed by LVG. He played every team as if he were playing against Barcelona - ultra defensive and with fear.

 

[redmanx]

Statistics only tell part of the story, the feel good factor is back at Old Trafford, and that's worth more than facts and figures; throughout the team, indeed the squad, confidence is high and they clearly enjoy playing under Jose; yes, we hear that Martiall isn't happy and De Gea will probably leave at sometime; yes, the defence could still do with strengthening, and though we create umpteen chances, converting them is still something of a concern, but over all, things are much improved. Im not a Van Gaal hater, he came in at an incredibly difficult time and steadied the ship and deserves praise for that, his problem was that he lacked the vision, tactical nous and awareness to take us up to the next level, ie challenging for a Champions League spot and the Premiership title. The Premiership is out of our reach this season but a top 4 finish shouldn't be a problem, especially if we can start converting chances into goals.

 

[frank lee madeer..]

Its impossible to say .The football is more pleasing on the eye , but I think we'd have probably won the league last season & been more pleasing on the eye if we had the added options of mkhi zlatan bailly & pogba.
The main thing is , I , and most others think we are generally heading in the right direction . We need the results to continue to back it up tho.

 

[sunama]

Its impossible to say .The football is more pleasing on the eye , but I think we'd have probably won the league last season & been more pleasing on the eye if we had the added options of mkhi zlatan bailly & pogba.

So, you wanted LVG to buy half a team, in one transfer window? Morgan S. Bastian S, Darmian, Martial, Pogba, Miki, Ibra, Bailey?
You do realise that the problem with LVG was his faith in Rooney (8 league goals/season striker) and that he told his attackers not to take any risks?
If he got Miki, Miki would've been turned into a nervous wreck; he wouldn't know whether to attempt to score or to hold possession and do the side/back passing.
Ibra would never have joined - he hated LVG.
Di Maria left because he didn't like LVG's style of play. DDG was desperate to leave, which goes to show that top class players just don't get on with LVG.
The reason why we made 4 key signings a few months back was because of Jose.

 

[MJJ]

Which players? Joint best defense last season so I would argue the back 4 was decent.
Along with Martial, Rashford and Lingard.

Defense was only good because we were so negative. I would say only martial and rashford looked good under him which is kinda damning given the players he signed

 

[AR87]

Of course Mourinho is responsible for the worst buy of the century. He spent an all time record fee on a player that will disrupt any fluidity in midfield because he has no awareness at all. A signing that was poor judgement or just didn't work out can happen to any manager, but the problem with Pogba is that it will be hard to sell hem on for more than 30 million.

This is actually the dumbest thing I've ever read in my life.

 

[ravi2]

Improvements under Mourinho from LVG era:
- Less boring football
- Players used in actual positions
- No occurrence of situations like taking 75 minutes to have a shot at home to Sheffield United
- Winning of games by actually deserving to win them
- Noticeable game plan
- Less injuries
- Non repeated use of players in roles they are clearly not suited to play in.
- Lack of self contradictory nonsense spouted in post match interviews.
- Urge to stop watching United games before they finish due to desire to get on with life, no longer there.
- Results, goals scored, etc. Plus general belief in the team's ability to improve and win things.

Improvements under LVG from Moyes era:
- Slight improvement in Ashley Young performances
- No interviews in which manager basically claims team is shite
- Trees planted at the training ground
- Ability to win games due to hero superman goalkeeper rather than by actually being any good.
- Progressed an extra round in the League Cup, or something.
- Managed to actually get Luke Shaw to not look like a fraud...for about 4 games.

This is a hell of a post

 

[Bojan11]

I doubt that Mourinho would want Di Maria in the English league. He is not known for his defensive play and has not lit up the league in France. Hernandez is a poacher but doesn't offer much else. He has recently come off a 1400 minute goal drought. Nani was a great match winner on his day but was very inconsistent.
I'm amazed at how history gets revised to make a point.
The squad needed overhauling. LVG did that. Some players were good. Others were not. Happens under every manager.

Di Maria is known for his defensive play.

Mourinho made him into a great defensive winger so he could cover for Ronaldo on the other side. He got lazy with us and PSG because he was bought in as the main man.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

I doubt that Mourinho would want Di Maria in the English league. He is not known for his defensive play and has not lit up the league in France. Hernandez is a poacher but doesn't offer much else. He has recently come off a 1400 minute goal drought. Nani was a great match winner on his day but was very inconsistent.
I'm amazed at how history gets revised to make a point.
The squad needed overhauling. LVG did that. Some players were good. Others were not. Happens under every manager.

Say what you want, dimaria is miles ahead of ashley young. Nani miles ahead of lingard and chica would still be schooling rooney. All 3 was mismanaged and brushed off too quickly by LVG. jomo would have skinned the league with ADM and chica.
Say what you want.. moyes and lvg were both not at jomo level. even if you put them together.

 

[Treble_Winning]

We are quite obviously a very different team now, and if you ignore the first 10 games as a settling in period for Mourinho, we are now displaying title challenging form for the first time in years. If we play like this next season from the start, we will win the title, no doubt about it. The improvement has been so clear and apparent that I'm surprised some people haven't noticed it.

 

[Nighteyes]

There was no progress under Van Gaal. The man was an idiot and a gigantic fraud. Amused me no end to see if people justify his bollocks for the last 2 seasons. Even before this long unbeaten run the progress under Mourinho was obvious.

 

[Rozay]

We're definitely a better team, but there will always be a tinge of, I dunno if 'regret' is the right word, perhaps 'curiosity' about not being able to see what Van Gaal could do with Martial, Rashford, Fosu-Mensah and Varela. Their fortunes have all been different under Mourinho, and for me, all showed enormous potential last season and were all Van Gaal's own men. TFM, specifically, was brilliant last year, MOTM or at least top 3 in almost every appearance. He has been so marginalises by Mourinho.

That said, that isn't the most important thing, and the team is playing better stuff at the moment and extremely unlucky not to be right in the thick of the title race.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We're definitely a better team, but there will always be a tinge of, I dunno if 'regret' is the right word, perhaps 'curiosity' about not being able to see what Van Gaal could do with Martial, Rashford, Fosu-Mensah and Varela. Their fortunes have all been different under Mourinho, and for me, all showed enormous potential last season and were all Van Gaal's own men. TFM, specifically, was brilliant last year, MOTM or at least top 3 in almost every appearance. He has been so marginalises by Mourinho.

That said, that isn't the most important thing, and the team is playing better stuff at the moment and extremely unlucky not to be right in the thick of the title race.

TFM barely featured under Van Gaal, though. How many games did he start?

 

[Player Red]

We're definitely a better team, but there will always be a tinge of, I dunno if 'regret' is the right word, perhaps 'curiosity' about not being able to see what Van Gaal could do with Martial, Rashford, Fosu-Mensah and Varela. Their fortunes have all been different under Mourinho, and for me, all showed enormous potential last season and were all Van Gaal's own men. TFM, specifically, was brilliant last year, MOTM or at least top 3 in almost every appearance. He has been so marginalises by Mourinho.

That said, that isn't the most important thing, and the team is playing better stuff at the moment and extremely unlucky not to be right in the thick of the title race.

I can see potential in TFM but I don't ever remember watching him and thinking he had a great game. Mainly just subs appearances. Perhaps you are thinking of when Cameron Borthwick-Jackson was at left back?

 

[Massive Spanner]

We're definitely a better team, but there will always be a tinge of, I dunno if 'regret' is the right word, perhaps 'curiosity' about not being able to see what Van Gaal could do with Martial, Rashford, Fosu-Mensah and Varela. Their fortunes have all been different under Mourinho, and for me, all showed enormous potential last season and were all Van Gaal's own men. TFM, specifically, was brilliant last year, MOTM or at least top 3 in almost every appearance. He has been so marginalises by Mourinho.

That said, that isn't the most important thing, and the team is playing better stuff at the moment and extremely unlucky not to be right in the thick of the title race.

Sorry, what?

TFM played 234 minutes in the PL last season, only started twice.

Martial will be fine, he just got the typical Mourinho treatment and after performing well will be back in the side again.

Varela was never good enough.

Rashford is playing loads considering how poor he's been.

It seems the whole youth thing is LvG's saving grace vs Mourinho on here, which I find a bit ridiculous really as Rashford aside, LvG did feck all for our youth, except give games to players who weren't ever good enough for us (Mc Nair, Varela).

 

[Nighteyes]

Yeah CBJ looked the much better prospect. TFM was very much overrated last season. Even in that Spurs game Mata was doing half his defending for him with him wandering all over the place.

 

[Vault Dweller]

TFM barely featured under Van Gaal, though. How many games did he start?

According to Soccerbase stats, TFM had 8 appearances in the League last season and 2 in the FA Cup. Looks like 7 appearances in all competitions this season too from the same website.

However, looking at actual starts I don't think he had many. Looks like 2 starts and 6 appearances from the bench in the league last season (those stats from whoscored.com).

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Sorry, what?

TFM played 234 minutes in the PL last season, only started twice.

Martial will be fine, he just got the typical Mourinho treatment and after performing well will be back in the side again.

Varela was never good enough.

Rashford is playing loads considering how poor he's been.

It seems the whole youth thing is LvG's saving grace vs Mourinho on here, which I find a bit ridiculous really as Rashford aside, LvG did feck all for our youth, except give games to players who weren't ever good enough for us (Mc Nair, Varela).

The biggest boost our kids got under Van Gaal was recurrent catastrophic injury crises. If we'd had to endure the same shit this season then TFM would have got a lot more minutes.