I love watching Man Utd again. Thanks Jose.
That's all I have to say on it really.
That's all I have to say on it really.
Signs of Progress | Mourinho vs Van Gaal
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) was joined by comedian Ali Woods to look back at the best and worst moments of a rollercoaster season with the annual United Hour Awards.
Has Ten Hag been sacked yet? We're not sure and we hope not, but it's looking more likely as the days pass.
Who should replace him and why is it taking so long to make a decision?
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Exactly. Rashford would've never even played last season had it not been for every striker of ours getting injured. This idea that LvG was some amazing youth advocate is absurd.
Interesting. I love how players who did nothing for the club like ADM is now touted as the missing link in a league winning season. Ditto players like Chica and Nani, who granted, on their day could be fantastic, were the butt of plenty of supporters for their inconsistency an wastefulness in front of goal. But go ahead, rewrite history if you want.
LVG overhauled the squad. He got rid of plenty of players who were on the decline. He brought in players and generally lowered the average age of the squad. Some succeeded. Some did not. That happens with every manager.
You pine for Chica, but if he was around I doubt Rashford would have been fast tracked into the squad. Same with Nani and Lingard. Now i'm not suggesting that Lingard has the same skill level as Nani, but players move on.
ADM was clearly not settled in England. LVG has to shoulder some of the blame but maybe the players heart wasn't keen on been here in the first place. Coming off a CL win with Madrid to the 7th best club in England is a bit of a step down at that stage of his career. And from what has been reported, he wanted the move to PSG from the off.
I agree, LVG is not at Mourinho's level. He was a very good manager in the past. He did not live up to expectations while managing United. The football was too possession based. I wouldn't say it was a bad appointment. He had a pretty decent CV and record.
He was our highest assister all season and only played what half the league games?
He started off really well when the football was fast and fluid in the 442 diamond. Once we switched to the pathetic 3-5-2 where we had no pace and everybody played like statues, no wonder we and he suffered.
If Di Maria played in this team with the pace we now have, it would be so much different.
He was having to knock long balls up to Fellaini, Rooney and Falcao FFS!
it's laughable really.He was fantastic away to Tottenham. Went off injured and Darmian replaced him. We then proceeded to let in 3 goals in 8 minutes.
He obviously didn't play loads of games overall, but he was very involved in the last part of the season when he made his debut.
Van Gaal seemed to trust him, although he did have a spell out of the side after the FA Cup Semi.
Yeah, he got stuck in and put himself about in that game but still lacked composure. There haven't been many outstanding performances from him, as was suggested above.
Yep. I look forward to watching us. That's fecking progress
TFM only made his debut with 3 months left though.
I don't have stats to hand, but I recall him starting against Watford in the league, and even a big game like Spurs away, where he was far and away our best player before his injury and Darmian's introduction led to three quick goals down his side.
He started an FA Cup Semi against Everton at Wembley too, and the game before against West Ham. So you may have zeroed in on 'League starts', but these cup games were not Wigan in the third round, they were crucial games on a trophy hunt. Even as a sub, he was very involved. Came on at half time against West Ham in the first leg of the Cup and changed the game.
Rashford is playing loads, but he was playing better, is my point. LVG had him end the season as our first choice 9, and I'm a bit curious to see how hints worked out if he continued like that.
Varela was also plenty good enough, in my opinion. Some posters have agendas against Van Gaal, perhaps even rightly so, but he refusal to give any credit for anything, or worse still, rewrite things, is unnecessary. The performance threads from last season are still here. I would recommend reading Varela's and Fosu-Mensah's.
Martial will be fine, I agree. He was obviously much better last season though.
Look, I'm not saying it was the wrong decision to get rid of Van Gaal, not by a long way. I am delighted we got Mourinho, and he's clearly the right man. That said, if we are looking at the positives of both managers, Mourinho's are much bigger, but Van Gaal was not completely hopeless. He had some positives, even if they were few. The younger players played more and better under him than they have under Mourinho, to dispute that is denial.
I don't deny at all that LvG was "good" with youth, in that he kept our squad pretty thin and was happy to rely on them when we got injuries. Mourinho has a much bulkier squad and simply won't do the same, it's not him, we'd like it to be him, but it's just not.
And yeah LvG did play a lot of youngsters, but most were not good enough for us, he largely ignored the best ones (Pereira being a good example) and got pretty lucky with Rashford. I really can't remember anything of TFM last season tbh, I don't think he was in any way spectacular, I'm sure Mourinho will give him chances in cup competitions too, he has to, we have too many games.
Basically - LvG did marginally better with youth than Mourinho likely will but really I couldn't give a toss about what would've happened with him in the future. I think our best prospects (Rashford, Martial, TFM, hopefully Pereira & Gomes) will still be fine under Mourinho, it's mostly the drivel like McNair and Powell that won't get a look in because our squad has enough depth that we don't need them.
Ultimately, if you were a bit more objective about Van Gaal (your views on him have been made clear, over and over), then I'm not sure you would simplify his work with the youth as you have done above.
Rashford came in when players were injured, for example. That's natural. He started the season as a 17 year old. As did TFM. I can't see Mourinho starting players of at age in key games in the latter part of the season.
Also, Rashford played, and stayed. That's the natural order of things. At least he wasn't benched when Martial and Rooney were fit again. TFM has been behind Darmian and Young this season who are average players too.
There was a clear difference with how the younger players were involved, and how well they played too. Last season I was thinking 'Angel Gomes might get on the bench for a Cup game next season, or maybe the season after'. That feeling has gone now. Again, I'm not now saying we have the wrong guy as a result. I'm just saying that is literally the only thing I miss of Van Gaal. But I think to take that away from him, in comparison with Mourinho, is unfair.
True but you have to give a 'little' credit to LVG with regards to this though @Pogue Mahone, as LVG said himself before the season, he moved on Hernandez and RVP so that the squad would be smaller, thus allowing more chances for youth players in the event of such an injury crisis.
Still, I skipped so many matches last season and turned over so many matches, I don't care how many youth prospects were given opportunities, the football after November was beyond horrific; now I'm counting the minutes until Thursday.
Pereira being the only example. And he was still more involved with the squad that he is this year, obviously.
You keep on about McNair, but ultimately, he was given a chance, and in the long run, didn't take it. Again, you are rewriting. There was no objection to McNair playing after he came through. Read his thread, it's there, and full of praise early on. People wanted him as first choice even at full strength. Then, he gradually performed worse, and Van Gaal stopped playing him, as he should. There is absolutely nothing wrong with how he handled McNair, and I doubt he'd have himself a Premier League career if not for Van Gaal.
Marginally better is unfair, I think, as Mourinho has done extremely little in comparison. 'Getting lucky' with Rashford is unfair too. That's like saying Jose has gotten lucky by having Rojo play well. Was LVG lucky in getting Martial to play significantly better too?
Also, did people REALLY stop watching United games last year?!?!
Genuinely curious.
Genuinely curious.
Better than what exactly? He was already ripping up the french league. We didn't buy some youth product who was only potential, we paid a f*ckload of money for an already very good young player. Martial has had his troubles this season though his personal life has clearly had an effect. I can't say I'm overly happy with Mou's treatment of him at times but I don't think him playing great last year and dropping off in his second season is to do with LvG > Mourinho, that's for sure.
Rashford and Rojo is a strange comparison. Rashford only got into the team because every single forward option we had got injured. Rojo was an established squad member already. It's clearly not 'luck' when Mourinho has him and Jones playing the best football of their careers.
I didn't dispute McNair being given a chance but ultimately isn't it up to the manager to figure out if a player's good enough for the team or a capable option if we get injuries? McNair is an example of LvG not quite being as brilliant with identifying young talent than many seem to think.
Definitely 'didn't stop watching' but I stopped going out of my way to watch every single game like I am doing again and have always done.
I still think the main differences are:
1. Mourinho gives the attacking players freedom (doubt he has any input there) while VG wanted them to play to his demands/style
2. Mourinho has beefed up the defence personnel wise and style wise. The extra pressure of playing out from the back is non existent
3. And of course splashing the cash on Pogba and signing Zlatan
You could argue they are major improvements but it still leaves a lot to be desired....
I didnt switch over and watch something else entirely. But Id find myself browsing twitter, or going to make a brew and not rushing back, or missing the first 10 minutes while I did something else, because you just knew nothing interesting would happen.
I remember at one of the many home games last year where it was 0-0 at half time (don't quite remember which one), it was like half the crowd were chatting to each other instead of watching the game, or were popping to get a pint mid way through the half. Never known anything like it, and despite the mythology of Fergie, we'd had loads of boring games when he was in charge.
But I think the difference was the expectation. Now, as under Fergie, something could happen. Even if its a bit flat, you never know when we might turn up the heat, so you keep watching. With LVG it was like you just didn't expect excitement, so it was hard for the games to keep your attention.
I streamed most games and there was LOTS of skipping. Or I would just browse the net on the other monitor
That's a fair point but there's not actually that much difference in terms of the squad depth, this season and last, in the positions where LVG gave games to kids.
The only areas of the squad we're really heavily stocked is in central midfield. And Van Gaal never gave any kids games in that position anyway. Opportunities mainly came up front, at full-back or in central defence. And we're still only 2 or 3 injuries away from needing to play kids in those areas. The fact we haven't yet had that sort or mini injury crisis is another item to add to the long "signs of progress" list.
I found it more or less impossible to watch a full 90 minutes without dicking around on my phone. The games just didn't hold my attention. The majority of them, anyway. I'll never forget last season's opener against Spurs. I was away for the weekend in the west of Ireland and managed to negotiate some time away from the wife/kids to bunker down in a country pub and give the game my full attention. Should have been a thoroughly enjoyable couple of hours. After 90 minutes of "oh no, not this shit again" I felt bored stupid and pissed off at an afternoon wasted. A sign of things to come.
I don't know where we'll end up this season, but entertainment-wise, it's like night and day, we are far, far more enjoyable to watch.
I am not a fan of LVG but I thought he did well by clearing out deadwood. We had a lot of has beens in the squad who didn't really have the passion and desire anymore. Players who had already won so much. We needed to cut the squad down to the bone which meant that when we had injuries LVG had to use youth players.
With that said I don't think LVG did anything Mourinho wouldn't have done, and probably done better. All in all i'm happy Mourinho is here. He is the better coach, but that doesn't mean LVG didn't do good things for us. I guess he just didn't have the name and the skills to attract players like mkhitaryan, Zlatan and pogba which would progress us to the next level
With that said I don't think LVG did anything Mourinho wouldn't have done, and probably done better. All in all i'm happy Mourinho is here. He is the better coach, but that doesn't mean LVG didn't do good things for us. I guess he just didn't have the name and the skills to attract players like mkhitaryan, Zlatan and pogba which would progress us to the next level
Aye, that was an awful game.
On the scheme of things, Van Gaal really needed to go. That match is just sending quivers through my body thinking about it.
It's night and day. We should have hired Jose after Sir Alex. LVG knew he didn't have that ronaldo type player - but still took a risk and it's an idea to keep all the ball and then look to create that one chance to score that one goal to win but it was a mind feck. Watching it was terrible to play in it must have driven some of the players mad. We we're fun to watch again and we're going in the right direction.
Jose wouldn't have sorted some youth out unless they were all bought & even then I doubt that's what he would have done in the first season post Fergie with the likes of RVP & Co around.
Since LVG focuses so much on the whole team from first team to u18's playing the same way - I think it made transition much easier as everyone got the same basics of tactical principles at every age. I think this will continue with other youngsters impressing Jose even after years that LVG has gone.
LVG is a builder & not a winner. Jose is the winner.
I've read this a lot but the only kids to establish themselves as first-teamers on his watch (or after) were signed from another club (Martial) or barely played at all for our academy while he was in charge (Rashford, Lingard)
I'm not even sure he can take credit for FSM. He's never struck me as the type of player to embody Van Gaal's "philosophy". Far too direct.
I don't think it was ever LVG's plan to clear out the deadwood because he wanted to play youth players. I actually don't think he had anything to do with how the u18's played. He cleared it out because he wanted to shift the mentality in the dressing room. He wanted players who were hungry and willing to work hard. So I don't buy into that especially when you think about all the times he moaned about us having injuries to first team players.
He didn't though. He got rid of a lot of players and bought in a lot of his own shite. Only one of his signings is a regular first choice now and I'm being generous describing Herrera as a Van Gaal signing. 5 of his own signings have already been bombed out with more likely to follow if we can shift them.
Exactly. It's even more comical when you consider that LvG didn't even like Herrera.
Mourinho seems to have found a pretty stellar balance between attacking football and defensive solidity. At least most of the time.
Helps having what is probably the best group of attackers in the league with two of the most creative central midfielders playing behind them.
Helps having what is probably the best group of attackers in the league with two of the most creative central midfielders playing behind them.
The biggest sign of progress I see, and what Jose needs to applauded for the most, is keeping our excellent defensive record while adding what we were missing the most last season, chance creation.
At this point in the league last year, we had conceded 22 goals, the second best in the league after Spurs (19). This season, we have conceded in the same number of games 21 goals (with Chelsea and Spurs on 18).
Meanwhile we have scored 38 compared to 32 last season, and more importantly created 327 chances whereas last year we created 210 after the same number of games and 312 for the whole season!
This was my big worry last year. Any game in which LVG tried to be more adventurous, we easily conceded goals. It seemed that creating more chances automatically meant conceding a lot more as well. Mourinho has fixed to a big extent the problems in the attacking third while preserving a solid defensive record.
Now it would be nice to start converting more of them chances. Mata has a good conversion, Mkhi and Zlatan have decent ones, Pogba's is horrendous (4 goals from 80 shots, 33 of which from inside the box). Also honourable mention to Ander with 0 goals in the PL from 30 shots (26 from outside the area tbf).
At this point in the league last year, we had conceded 22 goals, the second best in the league after Spurs (19). This season, we have conceded in the same number of games 21 goals (with Chelsea and Spurs on 18).
Meanwhile we have scored 38 compared to 32 last season, and more importantly created 327 chances whereas last year we created 210 after the same number of games and 312 for the whole season!
This was my big worry last year. Any game in which LVG tried to be more adventurous, we easily conceded goals. It seemed that creating more chances automatically meant conceding a lot more as well. Mourinho has fixed to a big extent the problems in the attacking third while preserving a solid defensive record.
Now it would be nice to start converting more of them chances. Mata has a good conversion, Mkhi and Zlatan have decent ones, Pogba's is horrendous (4 goals from 80 shots, 33 of which from inside the box). Also honourable mention to Ander with 0 goals in the PL from 30 shots (26 from outside the area tbf).
I did yeah, if I had training or something on, I didn't go out of my way to watch matches instead as I have always done. And I did find myself checking my mobile and pissing around online when I was watching games.
I stopped centering my life around United games, that's for sure. Watching United under LVG was a chore and not a pleasure. I am not sure I could have handled another year of that
I agree about a lot of his signings not making an impact. But let's be honest. None of the players who left have been impressive in any of their new clubs. So I think he did the right thing in letting them go
No. But there was no way I'd go and watch them play live or spend hours searching for a river. It was strictly TV only. That way I could rewind the bits I fell asleep through. My lifelong love for all things United was seriously tested!
I used to fall asleep with them on.
Think I may have drifted once perhaps.
Not trying to play some super fan or anything, but I don't think my excitement to watch a United game has ever dampened. Even if we are playing shite, there's always the hope that maybe we wouldn't. If anything, I'd like to lessen my attitude towards United games. My whole day is planned around the match. This year, I didn't go to a wedding because it clashed with the derby (in which we were spanked), and I regularly turn down money by cancelling my evening shifts at my second job if we are playing. I'd like to stop that tbh. I'm trying to find ways to become less invested overall. Perhaps it will come with age and responsibilities.
I used to watch them, I didn't like the style of play but still I looked forward to watching the matches. I live in India and for us matches (Especially Europa and Champs league) used to be at absurd times like 1 in the night. I still used to watch them
I really don't know why, may be, it is 'United', that's why
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