Signs of Progress | Mourinho vs Van Gaal

[DevilRed]

Jose has always been very astute in the transfer market. We have brought in some quality players this year. Its just too bad some of the existing ones keep letting us down time and time again.

Im sure there will be more additions/departures and we will finally get back into the top 4. Thats my expectation for next year. Maybe even challenge for the title.

One thing is for certain, we need to keep Jose around for more than 3 years. He is building something here and it feels right.

 

[Hugh Jass]

Jose has always been very astute in the transfer market. We have brought in some quality players this year. Its just too bad some of the existing ones keep letting us down time and time again.

Im sure there will be more additions/departures and we will finally get back into the top 4. Thats my expectation for next year. Maybe even challenge for the title.

One thing is for certain, we need to keep Jose around for more than 3 years. He is building something here and it feels right.

I agree.

 

[M Bison]

Jose has done marginally better than LvG.

In terms of Jose's signings i don't think they have been great, although you can't argue with Zlatan on a free and the return we've had from him. Bailly looks like he will be the real deal in time too, and i think Pogba will come good given time. All that has cost a hell of a lot though and to say we're only marginally better than under LvG is worrying.

I'm sure we'll blow another huge sum of money in the summer though and hopefully we'll get back into the top 4 so we'll be able to look back and say Jose did a better job than LvG, but i am starting to wonder whether we are truly any further forward than where we were this time last year.

 

[Garethw]

Jose has done marginally better than LvG.

In terms of Jose's signings i don't think they have been great, although you can't argue with Zlatan on a free and the return we've had from him. Bailly looks like he will be the real deal in time too, and i think Pogba will come good given time. All that has cost a hell of a lot though and to say we're only marginally better than under LvG is worrying.

I'm sure we'll blow another huge sum of money in the summer though and hopefully we'll get back into the top 4 so we'll be able to look back and say Jose did a better job than LvG, but i am starting to wonder whether we are truly any further forward than where we were this time last year.

We are creating shit loads of chances per game in comparison to during LVG's tenure.

If our forward players weren't such a bunch of fecking fannies in front of goal at least 6/7 of those draws would have been wins. That equates to 12/14 points better off than we are now.

I'd take this over the boring shit fest LVG served up.

 

[Mr PG]

I agree.

All depends on the second season doesn't it? If it looks like the current one he will be fired if he shows appropriate progress he stays simple. It's not like the board hasn't given him all he asked for.

 

[M Bison]

We are creating shit loads of chances per game in comparison to during LVG's tenure.

If our forward players weren't such a bunch of fecking fannies in front of goal at least 6/7 of those draws would have been wins. That equates to 12/14 points better off than we are now.

I'd take this over the boring shit fest LVG served up.

I too would rather be entertained but the important factor is points on the board and whether the team is any further forward, I'm not convinced we are and have found myself questioning it recently.

 

[Garethw]

I too would rather be entertained but the important factor is points on the board and whether the team is any further forward, I'm not convinced we are and have found myself questioning it recently.

I know how you feel mate. It's frustrating as feck.

 

[Ali Dia]

We are better to watch but still as ineffective. We haven't really improved. We were harder to beat the other way but more entertaining this way. With either manager you are waiting for something to click before we can properly kick on. I'd rather be watching this football while we are waiting though. I think Jose is better in the transfer market and we will finally challenge again next year.

 

[The United]

Jose has always been very astute in the transfer market. We have brought in some quality players this year. Its just too bad some of the existing ones keep letting us down time and time again.

Im sure there will be more additions/departures and we will finally get back into the top 4. Thats my expectation for next year. Maybe even challenge for the title.

One thing is for certain, we need to keep Jose around for more than 3 years. He is building something here and it feels right.

Like who exactly? I bet you would name elbow man and who else?

 

[Mike09]

We are better to watch but still as ineffective. We haven't really improved. We were harder to beat the other way but more entertaining this way. With either manager you are waiting for something to click before we can properly kick on. I'd rather be watching this football while we are waiting though. I think Jose is better in the transfer market and we will finally challenge again next year.

I think the main reason is that even though the system is better than LVG but still ineffective because we currently don't have the right players for the system. We don't apply a system to get the best out of players but instead we are trying different type of system which Mourinho has been using when he was at Chelsea and Inter and none of them are suitable for the current players that we have.

However, the transfer market is definitely something Jose has ahead of LVG which makes me have more confident in him than LVG.

 

[P-Nut]

We are better to watch but still as ineffective. We haven't really improved. We were harder to beat the other way but more entertaining this way. With either manager you are waiting for something to click before we can properly kick on. I'd rather be watching this football while we are waiting though. I think Jose is better in the transfer market and we will finally challenge again next year.

Surely our results this season indicate that we are much harder to beat now than last season?

We've not lost in the league since last year.

 

[redsunited]

Our league position in finishing top 4 depends on other teams failure, so not exactly will show progress but could only show up our failure. We have drawn far too many winnable games at home this season. Now in the run-up we will loose points in the tougher fixtures and more fans will be questioning the progress. For me the Europa league is the be all and end all. We win it, the season is successful and we had better season than every other club in England except league champions. Failure to win it, our season is below par considering the money spent on revamp.
Also fans are thinking that we have end less pit of money to dig in and spend 150m and 250k wages every season. They fail to understand that when new shirt deal came in during nike, we spent record amounts and reduced the spending in following seasons. Now we are spending due to the same reason(also extra TV money). We will stop spending such huge sum once we consolidate our league position. So I would like to add the point that "Not spending huge sum on average players is also a sign of progress. Selling unwanted players for better fee too" Other than paying 20+m extra for Pogba, we have done better this season.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Our league position in finishing top 4 depends on other teams failure

Erm... no it doesn't.

 

[Cassidy]

Erm... no it doesn't.

We have a worse GD than Liverpool so it actually does

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

We have a worse GD than Liverpool so it actually does

We have have played 2 less games than Liverpool so no it doesn't.

 

[rollingstoned1]

Until the last 2 months i would have definitely said progress but we have looked as flat as we did last season under LVG of late where we often don't ever look threatening the opposition or looking like scoring which is a bit of a concern for me as I wished win or lose I never felt like i did last year watching us play. It's cost us big time in the league and I don't believe the football is anywhere near as amazing this year as is being made out either.

 

[GM K]

With all due respect, many posts here seem based on sentiments rather than facts. If we are really going to assess whether or not Jose has made progress from the LVG era why not have clear indisputable criteria for comparison? E.g.

1. Position on the league table at the same period

2. No of trophies won at the same time

3. Chances created

4. Shots on goal

5. No of games won or lost

6. No of goals conceeded

7. Quality of transfer deals

8. Progress in European tourneys

Etc.

Jose seems to have improved on 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 and 8 above.

 

[frank lee madeer..]

With all due respect, many posts here seem based on sentiments rather than facts. If we are really going to assess whether or not Jose has made progress from the LVG era why not have clear indisputable criteria for comparison? E.g.

1. Position on the league table at the same period

2. No of trophies won at the same time

3. Chances created

4. Shots on goal

5. No of games won or lost

6. No of goals conceeded

7. Quality of transfer deals

8. Progress in European tourneys

Etc.

Jose seems to have improved on 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 and 8 above.

Results against rivals missing?
& also how can you deem no. 7 quality of transfers a sucessful fact for jose & yet you accept as fact that we are behind where lvg was after 8 months, (no.1,) with joses additions ? it doesnt add up. What is your base for that ? its certainly not a fact at this point, although I hope it becomes one.

 

[Ali Dia]

Surely our results this season indicate that we are much harder to beat now than last season?

We've not lost in the league since last year.

That's a very fair point. we've added another 4 potentially top tier players into the mix too, all starters. That's nearly half a team. Certainly a new spine. These things do take time to settle down. If Jose does the same again this summer it'll be a full new team but hopefully this seasons players will be of more help to the new ones. Stats show we are creating chances again but not converting them efficiently enough and our defense has always been there or thereabouts anyway. To be honest both managers had spells where everything looked terrible and also where it was all about to click. I'd much rather Joses more attacking approach on the pitch and at least he seems to have some kind of plan in the transfer market. I personally think he's a better manager too. The players know they can't get him fired this year so you have to assume a lot of this squad are playing for their places next year. In the cold light of day what we have still isn't of a good enough standard to seriously challenge yet but we aren't far off.

The thing that worries me is we never seem to get value for our huge wages and transfers fees. Our lack of a plan pre Jose has majorly desabilised us up to this point. Challenging for top four isn't enough when you pay the most. We need to stick with one managers vision for a while. That way it's easier for the next guy to come in and say that's all Joses team and they play this way. (Edit- this might only be a few inexpensive tweaks or bringing in the best youth on the verge of making it huge) I need to change this this and this to get it where I'd like it to be. The squad with the likes of Fellaini and Rooneys huge contract, the mata question, no proper striker and injury prone defenders and a keeper who's linked away to his hometown club every summer....Things are still an expensive mess basically. That takes time to sort out. I think we have the right man for the job.

 

[Moonwalker]

With all due respect, many posts here seem based on sentiments rather than facts. If we are really going to assess whether or not Jose has made progress from the LVG era why not have clear indisputable criteria for comparison? E.g.

1. Position on the league table at the same period

2. No of trophies won at the same time

3. Chances created

4. Shots on goal

5. No of games won or lost

6. No of goals conceeded

7. Quality of transfer deals

8. Progress in European tourneys

Etc.

Jose seems to have improved on 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 and 8 above.

And none more so than yours. It's absolutely hilarious how you've included 'position in the league' so as to appear objective (as it goes against your argument), but then proceeded to cherry pick the rest of it, with a conspicuous omission of both 'goals scored' and 'points gained'. Not sure what (5) means either, as we've had more wins at this juncture as well (albeit more losses too).

 

[GM K]

And none more so than yours. It's absolutely hilarious how you've included 'position in the league' so as to appear objective (as it goes against your argument), but then proceeded to cherry pick the rest of it, with a conspicuous omission of both 'goals scored' and 'points gained'. Not sure what (5) means either, as we've had more wins at this juncture as well (albeit more losses too).

So why don't you add to the list, other credible and measurable criteria for assessing if the team has improved, stagnated or regressed? You sound all sentimental to me. Lay down the facts. What I posted was my own attempt at doing so. Let's see yours.

 

[Moonwalker]

So why don't you add to the list, other credible and measurable criteria for assessing if the team has improved, stagnated or regressed? You sound all sentimental to me. Lay down the facts. What I posted was my own attempt at doing so. Let's see yours.

I just did. We've scored fewer goals, accumulated fewer points, and won fewer games (in the league). If you're gonna be all pompous about impartiality, you might wanna 'lay down' those apples too.

 

[GM K]

Results against rivals missing?
& also how can you deem no. 7 quality of transfers a sucessful fact for jose & yet you accept as fact that we are behind where lvg was after 8 months, (no.1,) with joses additions ? it doesnt add up. What is your base for that ? its certainly not a fact at this point, although I hope it becomes one.

Fair observations. I like the results against rivals bit. I think that's a very fair basis for comparison. In that case, Jose has regressed.

As for quality of transfers, I think that is pretty obvious. There has been an improvement considering Zlatan, Miki, Pogba and Bailly. But the purchase of four good players alone does not necessarily correlate to the league table standing considering other determining factors.

 

[Moonwalker]

Here's what I'll admit is an unequivocal improvement - we do look hard to beat, even if our undefeated run is flattered enormously by the 'kindness' of our schedule. What's more, this newfound solidity doesn't appear to be contingent on the consistency of the center back pairing (cause we've had very little of that). That's all down to Mourinho, and in that aspect he's delivered in accordance with his reputation.

We've never seen anything like that under Van Gaal, with whom, it was always the possession that was the primary benefactor to our goals conceded column.

 

[Roboc7]

The club couldn't afford another LVG transfer window, he bought players even he didn't want and was completely out of his depth.

This season would have been a disaster if LVG had stuck around and I don't think he would have made it past Christmas, problem with all the nonsense about what LVG was teaching the players and the benefits etc is it is based on LVG at his peak. The LVG that was managing utd was finished and eradicating virtually everything he did was essential but will take time.

 

[GM K]

I like the fact that you have introduced more criteria and I admit they are relevant, applicable and measurable. But not sure about your claims. By week 33 (that's minus this weekend in the current campaign), LVG's team had played 32, won 15, drawn 8, lost 9, scored 39, conceded 30 and accumulated 53 points to be 5th on the table.

On the other hand, Jose's team has played 30, won 15, drawn 12, lost 3, scored 46, conceded 24 and accumulated 57 points to be 6th on the table.

Minus table position and results against direct rivals, I struggle to see how the former team was better at this point in time in the season. Jose's team has scored more, conceded less, accumulated more points, created more chances, won a trophy already, is still in Europe for another cup, etc.

I prefer to look at the facts.