Signs of Progress | Mourinho vs Van Gaal

[sammsky1]

I don't think we are TBH. Look at WBA and Everton for instance. The amount of possession we had in those games, we made very little in terms of clear chances. We rely on percentage football hoping for a knock down in the box rather than crafting out a nice pass and move chance or dribbling passed a man and shooting etc.

I feel that if teams come to OT at the moment and park the bus, we are going to draw.

Look at the xG stats that have been posted somewhere. Also the stats in the Duncan Castle page. They show we have more than enough chances per game and more than almost every opponent we play

 

[EyeInTheSky]

We are very good at breaking of deep lying stubborn defences and creating enough chances. We just dont convert the chances.

yeah, the narrative that we cant "break deep lying stubborn defences" seems to be the prevaling narrative but is not based on an accurate interpratation of what is actually demonstrable. For example:

1) No team scores from every attack
2) The fact that you are getting so many chances means that you ARE breaking those stubborn defences

One can't argue that we "miss so many chances" and on the other hand say "we can't break teams down". You can't have both strictly speaking. I think people are lumping in/conflating the fact that we are not finishing said chances with a perception of failure to create the chances in the first instance. There is a tendency to loose composure and reasoning for us fans which is borne out of frustration and the heat of the moment.

There is a subtle difference here that we may be missing in people's interpretation of the topic. However, I will say that what is up for debate is whether those chances were "real" chances that we expect to be scored and some of those statistics could be meaningless in the sense that shots from outside the box or from players shooting from angles that have no business shooting from.

How do these statistics get interpreted and by whom? What constitutes a chance? Does a shot from outside the box that harmlessly hits a defender inside it count as a chance? Do they measure the angle and speed of a shot and say "had the defender not been in the way of that shot it would have gone in? What about the keeper would he have saved it anyway?

Or is it as simple as a 1 on 1 with the keeper is a chance? So many questions. I would love to see some detail on how this data is correlated or interpreted. I feel like until we know all this we are in the old "Blind man in a dark room hunting for a black cat that isn't there" scenario.

And after pausing for reflection I have just realised that I have far too much time on my hands...

 

[Adam-Utd]

Look at the xG stats that have been posted somewhere. Also the stats in the Duncan Castle page. They show we have more than enough chances per game and more than almost every opponent we play

I don't need stats, I watch football with my eyes and I know when we are playing well and opening teams up, or if we are being resisted to long range efforts or "half chances".

Yes at home to Burnley etc that was poor finishing. Many other games were down to panicking early and just throwing everybody into the box and using long balls. We aren't patient enough to suck the opponent out of position, use the width and get behind teams. I am fine with long ball football in the last 10 mins or so, but we do it from half time sometimes! That isn't breaking an opponent down in my eyes.

 

[sammsky1]

I don't need stats, I watch football with my eyes and I know when we are playing well and opening teams up, or if we are being resisted to long range efforts or "half chances".

Yes at home to Burnley etc that was poor finishing. Many other games were down to panicking early and just throwing everybody into the box and using long balls. We aren't patient enough to suck the opponent out of position, use the width and get behind teams. I am fine with long ball football in the last 10 mins or so, but we do it from half time sometimes! That isn't breaking an opponent down in my eyes.

Wow man. You.must be so.smart like Brian Clough or summat. Old skool rulz

Can't really take you too seriously with this kind of attitude as it's a 'trust me I know my footy better than anyone including managers, support staff, pundits and other United fans who have watched virtually every United game for 35 years'

 

[Jig1234]

Sacked the Master to hire his apprentice. Both are pretty much doing the same exact job.

Not saying Jose had to come win the title but I didn't expect us to be struggling this much just to get into CL. I thought finishing 3rd-4th was a fair expectation maybe some expected even more than that.

I'm not going to call for his head at the moment because we still have the Europa League and he'll probably get a second season. The season has been disappointing mainly because he got 4 players he wanted. Make a big deal about not making whole-sale changes the way Van Gaal did but we've been so bad it looks like he'll have do the same as him.

Biggest concern and frustration is the football, style of play. It feels outdated something that completely alien to this club. He's been going on about how important style of play is at Man United but let's be real here.

I think we play the worst football in the current top 7. It's dreadful. He had a pop at Conte/Chelsea for being Defensive but when I look at them and how effective they are. I see a team that know what they're doing. We don't know what a counter is anymore. Does he honestly believe we play more attacking football than them? If so, he's deluded i'd kill for Man Utd to be as clinical as Chelsea. (what's weird is that he thinks fans wouldn't like that style of play.) Being solid defensively, able to soak up pressure and finishing clinically,sounds like a Man United side to me.

- You also have to look at Van Gaal's ability to improve and get something out of players. Mourinho has not really improved anyone. Ibrahimovic is the only player doing a job in terms of scoring.

Rashford, Martial, etc. Mkhitaryan gave him tough love initially, he played well for a few weeks and did nothing after.

I worry about his inability to get maximum out of any player. Not one player is really thriving under him or his system. I don't think his system/formation is suiting the players. I'd love to see a diamond formation it might free the players a bit.

More questions than answers so far. I'd feel more optimistic if the football wasn't so tumescent and he was getting a bit more from a few more players.

 

[Harold_Giles]

The football we are playing under Mourinho is a lot more enjoyable than what LvG served.

IF our current team were clinical in front of goal, we'd probably be comfortable in 2nd or 3rd place.
I'm not sure if it's down to lack of luck, lack of quality, lack of confidence or world class goalkeeping. Probably a mix of it all.
Most games we are getting enough chances to put games to bed but we are really making things difficult for us by being extremely wasteful.

It was reversed with LvG. Creating next to nothing, but funnily enough making the most of the few chances we got.

 

[Bruno8]

This is a good analysis of why we struggling to score goals. Our young attackers dont seem to be coached properly on movement, technique and combination plays. Defensive duties demands are also excessive

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...manchester-united-jose-mourinho-a7669736.html

 

[SteveTheRed]

The football we are playing under Mourinho is a lot more enjoyable than what LvG served.

IF our current team were clinical in front of goal, we'd probably be comfortable in 2nd or 3rd place.
I'm not sure if it's down to lack of luck, lack of quality, lack of confidence or world class goalkeeping. Probably a mix of it all.
Most games we are getting enough chances to put games to bed but we are really making things difficult for us by being extremely wasteful.

It was reversed with LvG. Creating next to nothing, but funnily enough making the most of the few chances we got.

This is it for me, Mourinho football is miles better than what we were playing under Moyes and LVG. Joint 1st on times we have hit the woodwork, 1st on chances missed, 3rd on shots, joint 2nd best defence in the league ...8th on goals scored.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Wow man. You.must be so.smart like Brian Clough or summat. Old skool rulz

Can't really take you too seriously with this kind of attitude as it's a 'trust me I know my footy better than anyone including managers, support staff, pundits and other United fans who have watched virtually every United game for 35 years'

lol. We to break down teams you need good team chemistry and a plan. Under Fergie we used to spread the pitch wide, use overlaps of the fullback to get BEHIND their defensive line, then knock in quality crosses or pull backs. Our strikers were always alert and ready for tap ins as they knew the service would come.

Jose doesn't play with a plan, he let's them go about their business. That's the issue though, our players aren't smart enough to do it by themselves. We need to have a plan of attack.

When the going get's tough we resort to getting even more narrow, just throwing everybody forward and standing in the box. That's so much easier for the teams like WBA to defend against, it's their bread and butter!.

We need to create the triangles similar to how our play was successful under LVG, keep the ball moving quickly and use overlaps from the fullbacks. We never get ourselves in 2v1 positions, it's always just our wide player against 2 defenders. We then proceed to hit a hopeless cross into the box with no real aim.

It really wouldn't take much practise to get our attacking play much more fluent.
There's a reason why we don't score many goals, yes we have a poor shot percentage but we don't create CLEAR chances that are unmissable very often.

 

[Moonwalker]

This is a good analysis of why we struggling to score goals. Our young attackers dont seem to be coached properly on movement, technique and combination plays. Defensive duties demands are also excessive

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...manchester-united-jose-mourinho-a7669736.html

Don't think it is. It reads like an amalgamation of all the guesswork from Mourinho's critics on Red cafe. The 'laissez-faire' in attack notion in particular - is absolutely ludicrous. It beggars belief that it's regurgitated so persistently.

 

[Adebesi]

Don't think it is. It reads like an amalgamation of all the guesswork from Mourinho's critics on Red cafe. The 'laissez-faire' in attack notion in particular - is absolutely ludicrous. It beggars belief that it's regurgitated so persistently.

Interesting you dismiss it out of hand, out of interest is that for any reason in particular? Have you read anything to the contrary? Or does it just not sound plausible to you?

I dont think it necessarily sounds that far-fetched, a manager believing in a strict and regimented approach to defending but a more instinctive approach to attacking. I know its off the record and people dismiss anything not in attributed quotes, but if one of his ex players said there was a fairly unsophisticated approach to training for attacking situations, that is notable. The fact the source is unnamed doesnt make it worthless IMO. I guess it comes down to whether you think The Indie is in the business of making up off the record quotes, I find it more believable that someone said it but didnt want to be quoted on it because of the potential blowback.

I guess it is a matter of how far you take it though. Training that is laissez faire is one thing, training that is non-existent (for attacking situations) is another. Would be interesting to have a bit more inside info on it.

But it does make you wonder whether he would ever consider getting a specialist trainer to come in and work with the forwards. And whether that might make a difference.

 

[Tosicsleftpeg]

People getting their knickers in a twist because we drew the last couple of games. If we beat Sunderland we are 1 point off the top 4 again...couple of decent results against the big boys in the league and we are in the top 4 again. Just need a few decent wins its not exactly a massive stretch.

 

[Moonwalker]

Interesting you dismiss it out of hand, out of interest is that for any reason in particular? Have you read anything to the contrary? Or does it just not sound plausible to you?

I dont think it necessarily sounds that far-fetched, a manager believing in a strict and regimented approach to defending but a more instinctive approach to attacking. I know its off the record and people dismiss anything not in attributed quotes, but if one of his ex players said there was a fairly unsophisticated approach to training for attacking situations, that is notable. The fact the source is unnamed doesnt make it worthless IMO. I guess it comes down to whether you think The Indie is in the business of making up off the record quotes, I find it more believable that someone said it but didnt want to be quoted on it because of the potential blowback.

I guess it is a matter of how far you take it though. Training that is laissez faire is one thing, training that is non-existent (for attacking situations) is another. Would be interesting to have a bit more inside info on it.

But it does make you wonder whether he would ever consider getting a specialist trainer to come in and work with the forwards. And whether that might make a difference.

Well I suppose the distinction you make adds a bit of nuance. The way it's been argued here is in the crude form of "he just lets them do whatever they like, then gets angry when it's not up to snuff", which is fatuous in the extreme. I don't believe either myself. We are talking about somebody who is at the very top of professional management. It's unimaginable to me that he could have got that far and stayed there for so long without having an attacking system (plan, call it what you will). If we could continue your nuance building though, and make a trichotomy that would include the notion that he 'prefers defence' or pays more attention to it, that I could swallow.

Somebody even suggested that all we really need is for him to figure out that a 'finishing drill' should be included in training. To say that I'd be disappointed if he didn't think of that by now would be an understatement.

 

[Turnip]

I'm afraid I can't see that much progress. We pass sideways a lot. If a team sits back a little they know we won't score. We try and push harder sometimes, but really the outcome is the same. We are hard to score against but we're easy to defend against, because of this we draw a lot. We're drawing because anyone can come here and decide they're going to sit back, and that's what dictates the game and there's nothing we can do about it.

Currently, I don't see how we can say there's been a lot of progress. That said I'd still bet on Jose improving us next season, but I wouldn't bet on us getting top 4 this time. I think we could win the Europa league though, because in knock-out stages teams can't just defend, they have to try and get a goal, and we fair much better then.

I can't see how the same people who blamed these problems on LvG last season can say it isn't Jose's fault this time. If you want your players to pass forward, tell them that, scream at them for passing back. If you want them to make runs, scream at them for standing still. He's had nearly a full season and none of these problems have been sorted. Some of it is the players for sure, we have a lot of average players, but that fact that none of them have really changed their way makes me wonder if Jose has any idea how to make them. Maybe this is why he's always relied so heavily on transfers, he has no idea how to improve a player.

Also I can't help but notice that we've bought some good players (I still like Pogba and Micki has been awesome at times) but the ones who were playing well last season, namely youth, have all taken a massive downward spiral. Rashford looks incredible every now and then, but he regularly looks like he doesn't even know what he should be doing while playing out wide. Martial and Shaw probably can't remember the way to the pitch at OT anymore. So we've taken an equal step backwards in that respect.

I wonder if Jose has a plan. He either needs to do it his way or the club's way, a hybrid of both with bring - well, what we're seeing now - mediocrity. I never wanted Jose's overly defensive manner here, I've never liked his style, but some sort of style is better than none at all, which is what we seem to have now.


All that said, we never will see progress unless we give someone time to build, and right now there's no better option than giving Jose that chance.

 

[Adebesi]

Well I suppose the distinction you make adds a bit of nuance. The way it's been argued here is in the crude form of "he just lets them do whatever they like, then gets angry when it's not up to snuff", which is fatuous in the extreme. I don't believe either myself. We are talking about somebody who is at the very top of professional management. It's unimaginable to me that he could have got that far and stayed there for so long without having an attacking system (plan, call it what you will). If we could continue your nuance building though, and make a trichotomy that would include the notion that he 'prefers defence' or pays more attention to it, that I could swallow.

Yes there is always room for more nuance.

I find it plausible, like I said, that - when it comes to the attacking side of things - he likes to get instinctive and experienced players who develop a chemistry amongst themselves and just get on with it. I mean, isnt that to a certain extent the old-school way of doing things anyway? Isnt the more regimented approach a relatively modern phenomenon? I could be completely wrong about that. Similarly, I could be wrong but I thought I had once read that SAF put himself relatively more at the laissez faire end of the spectrum in this regard - so, again, not NOT coaching attacking play, but certainly giving his players considerable freedom, and trusting them to develop their own chemistry, and THAT being the basis of the attacking plan. I say relatively - relative to the likes of Van Gaal or Guardiola, who would be more regimented than that.

It reminds me of the old adage about football being a relatively simple complicated by idiots.

It would also explain why some characters have a strong aversion to Mourinho and others to Guardiola. Maybe someone like Zlatan has an aversion to that kind of coaching and really likes to figure it out for himself, to play more on instinct. Whereas others feel adrift and out of their depth with that and like the clarity of a more structured plan. (Or maybe this has nothing to do with it and it has more to do with personalities.)

So yeah, like I said, I thought that article was interesting if you take it with a pinch of salt and read it as talking about a spectrum, with no planning at one end, and military-style regimentation at the other, and managers being somewhere on it, and Mourinho being maybe further towards the former end than a lot of his contemporaries. I find that perfectly plausible. And potentially effective when you have the right players who will thrive in that environment, who have the experience and intelligence and confidence for it. It seems consistent - as the article points out - with his preference for more experienced players and his struggles with younger ones.

If there is any truth in it, I trust he has targets in mind who he knows are up to the job of working his way.

If not, I hope whatever it is that IS causing our strikers to look so lost is resolved soon.

 

[Moonwalker]

While we are doing unconfirmable by quotes, I can contribute with a couple of interviews (or rather my terse paraphrases) I've heard from two of my compatriots who had the pleasure of working with Jose. They both waxed enthusiastic about him, and it wasn't about what a great guy he was and the usual trite, but mainly about his tactical acumen, and his ability to predict how the game will unfold and so on. Kezman in particular was absolutely infatuated with Mourinho and talked about having very specific attacking instructions in that blitzkrieg at Stamford Bridge when they've scored 3 quick goals against Barcelona. Stankovic was just as complimentary, but I don't remember him revealing anything as specific as that about the game plan.

 

[Adebesi]

While we are doing unconfirmable by quotes, I can contribute with a couple of interviews (or rather my terse paraphrases) I've heard from two of my compatriots who had the pleasure of working with Jose. They both waxed enthusiastic about him, and it wasn't about what a great guy he was and the usual trite, but mainly about his tactical acumen, and his ability to predict how the game will unfold and so on. Kezman in particular was absolutely infatuated with Mourinho and talked about having very specific attacking instructions in that blitzkrieg at Stamford Bridge when they've scored 3 quick goals against Barcelona. Stankovic was just as complimentary, but I don't remember him revealing anything as specific as that about the game plan.

Really? Specifically about attacking plans? Maybe its all bollocks then.

His defensive tactical acumen is of course not up for debate, either way.

 

[Adebesi]

I can report that I have never had a conversation with a PL footballer.

Though I was on the same plane as Tony Yeboah once.

(Sorry reread that post and see those are interviews you read, not conversations you had. So ignore my irrelevant post.)

 

[Moonwalker]

Really? Specifically about attacking plans? Maybe its all bollocks then.

His defensive tactical acumen is of course not up for debate, either way.

I'm not really comfortable with divorcing attack and defence. It matters very much where you affect to win the ball, and that has to determine at least part of how you attack. That seems like like common sense to me. Which again, isn't very congruous with the laissez faire notion.

 

[Moonwalker]

I can report that I have never had a conversation with a PL footballer.

Though I was on the same plane as Tony Yeboah once.

(Sorry reread that post and see those are interviews you read, not conversations you had. So ignore my irrelevant post.)

Well, when I say interview - I mean someone else interviewing them and me just watching it on TV, so me neither. I've been on the same beach as Kezman once though.

 

[VP89]

People getting their knickers in a twist because we drew the last couple of games. If we beat Sunderland we are 1 point off the top 4 again...couple of decent results against the big boys in the league and we are in the top 4 again. Just need a few decent wins its not exactly a massive stretch.

No they aren't. When we went out and bought Pogba Zlatan Mkhitaryan and Bailey alongside Mourinho, a title challenge or at least comfortable finish in the top 3 was the expectation. City and Chelsea had new managers just like we did and Arsenal/Liverpool were never title contenders.

The fact that we are consistently relying on the likes of Liverpool and Arsenal to feck up to give way for us is extremely underwhelming to say the least. If we scrape 4th its avoiding blushes but still an underachievement.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

No they aren't. When we went out and bought Pogba Zlatan Mkhitaryan and Bailey alongside Mourinho, a title challenge or at least comfortable finish in the top 3 was the expectation. City and Chelsea had new managers just like we did and Arsenal/Liverpool were never title contenders.

The fact that we are consistently relying on the likes of Liverpool and Arsenal to feck up to give way for us is extremely underwhelming to say the least. If we scrape 4th its avoiding blushes but still an underachievement.

Nah, you're wrong about most of the rival clubs. Everyone expected Liverpool to have an excellent second season under Klopp and Spurs have only been going one direction since Pocchetino took over. Arsenal are Arsenal but only started spending big recently and finished second last season, so it was always possible they might suddenly kick on. Pep arrived as the allegedly best manager on the planet, with almost limitless financial backing. The only real suprise package this season has been Chelsea, which is mad because out of all the top clubs they won the league most recently.

United fans got understandably giddy about belatedly getting a manager with real pedigree, then spending a tonne of cash but all the smart money was on this season being an extremely tough one. With all the top teams harder to beat than ever. Which is, more or less, exactly what's happened. Getting top four is probably more difficult to do now than it ever has been before, in the history of the Premier League.

 

[VP89]

Nah, you're wrong about most of the rival clubs. Everyone expected Liverpool to have an excellent second season under Klopp and Spurs have only been going one direction since Pocchetino took over. Arsenal are Arsenal but only started spending big recently and finished second last season, so it was always possible they might suddenly kick on. Pep arrived as the allegedly best manager on the planet, with almost limitless financial backing. The only real suprise package this season has been Chelsea, which is mad because out of all the top clubs they won the league most recently.

United fans got understandably giddy about belatedly getting a manager with real pedigree, then spending a tonne of cash but all the smart money was on this season being an extremely tough one. With all the top teams harder to beat than ever. Which is, more or less, exactly what's happened. Getting top four is probably more difficult to do now than it ever has been before, in the history of the Premier League.

Re. Liverpool, I think everyone expected a better 2nd season but certainly not title contenders. They probably expected roughly where they are now, from 7th finish to top 4. Spurs are certainly going in one direction but their poor summer raised question marks as to whether they would be able to keep up with the crowd.

Arsenal will always have expectation after spending I suppose but they've been chronic chokers and I honestly don't think anyone in the caf saw them as a threat to our side after we completed our business come August/September. Alas, here we are, hoping Liverpool and Arsenal slip up to give us way into 4th place.

I know we have had new faces, a new culture and management but I am concerned with the progress by way of results. No one expects us to be catapulted into the elite straight away but this season we were one of 3 new management changes and are progressing the least out of the 3. I do think Mourinho will get it right eventually but LVG certainly had a better first season for us IIRC.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Re. Liverpool, I think everyone expected a better 2nd season but certainly not title contenders. They probably expected roughly where they are now, from 7th finish to top 4. Spurs are certainly going in one direction but their poor summer raised question marks as to whether they would be able to keep up with the crowd.

So Liverpool were expected to finish in top 4, agreed.

Arsenal will always have expectation after spending I suppose but they've been chronic chokers and I honestly don't think anyone in the caf saw them as a threat to our side after we completed our business come August/September.

Chronic chokers but ALWAYS finish top four, were likely to spend a lot of money (and did spend a lot of money) and finished highest of all the big clubs the season before. Safe to assume they were nailed on for top four.

Which leaves us with City, Spurs, Chelsea and United battling over the other two top four slots. All of whom were in with a very good shout, for various different reasons. Including Chelsea (like Liverpool) having the luxury of no European football at all. Like I said, this is the toughest top four battle I can think of. In the history of the Premier League.

I know we have had new faces, a new culture and management but I am concerned with the progress by way of results. No one expects us to be catapulted into the elite straight away but this season we were one of 3 new management changes and are progressing the least out of the 3. I do think Mourinho will get it right eventually but LVG certainly had a better first season for us IIRC.

I'm concerned with our progress too. Everyone is. Doesn't change the fact that the battle for top four is outrageously difficult and certainly a damn sight harder than LVG faced in his first season in charge (another manager who lucked out by having a season with no European distractions).

 

[Yeesheng]

Our team on paper is brilliant and probably should be doing better. But if the players cannot score from decent chances, I feel that it is pretty hard to blame the manager in terms of his tactical set up.

What I mean is that (to me) Mourinho has been doing well in (a) transfer strategy, (b) tactical set up (due to us playing decently and creating chances), (c) macro management (I.e coaching staff and facilities) and (D) rapport with fans.

However, our players are lacking composure and confidence. That is something that Mourinho may have failed to cope with. Perhaps his man management skills are simply ill-suited for some of our players like Rashford, Shaw and Martial. I do not fault Mourinho for this - he just has to fix it somehow and even Fergie has failed with certain players like Ravel and even Pogba (since he left).

With a bit of luck and had some of our chances gone into the net, perhaps things could have turned out very differently. momentum can do quite a lot as Leicester showed last season. That said, this season has been a disappointment considering the hype at the beginning and the fact that we are where we are.

But quality of football has been good. It is just bad luck that spiraled into a mental block in my view. It is a big test of a set of skills that Mourinho isn't strongest. I think that is why he prefers more matured and more motivated players generally instead of young ones who are malleable.

It seems like he is trying though - Shaw may hopefully respond and I think some young players like Bailey and Lingard are fine. Pogba is young too. Let just support the man and hope he will get it right. whatever he is doing is still way better than Moyes and LVG. Back then it was really hard trying to motivate myself to watch games (living in Singapore means the timings are quite odd sometimes), and I cannot imagine how the players must feel.

Now, I feel like the players are just two lucky games (where every shot on target goes in) away from really tearing it up.

 

[VP89]

So Liverpool were expected to finish in top 4, agreed.



Chronic chokers but ALWAYS finish top four, were likely to spend a lot of money (and did spend a lot of money) and finished highest of all the big clubs the season before. Safe to assume they were nailed on for top four.

Which leaves us with City, Spurs, Chelsea and United battling over the other two top four slots. All of whom were in with a very good shout, for various different reasons. Including Chelsea (like Liverpool) having the luxury of no European football at all. Like I said, this is the toughest top four battle I can think of. In the history of the Premier League.



I'm concerned with our progress too. Everyone is. Doesn't change the fact that the battle for top four is outrageously difficult and certainly a damn sight harder than LVG faced in his first season in charge (another manager who lucked out by having a season with no European distractions).

I do see your point, that the top 4 battle is gruelling this year more than ever so its not really a surprise that we are scrambling to make it.

However with the outlay we made in the summer there is still little excuse for being as far behind as we are now. For example, I can accept Pogba is young, but he was brought in for immediate impact as much as his potential ceiling and he simply failed to deliver thus far. I feel Mourinho contributes towards low confidence in the players that need mental strength and its showing in the lack of conviction of how we play.

The only way he turns this around is going on a great run until seasons end, which means winning big games. So far he only has 1 win in his battles against the top 6. If he can't steer the team towards winning easy games then I don't know how we will begin to go over the bigger sides. To relate this back to the thread title its quite evident LVG had a better first season than Mourinho has. The signs are not looking great at the moment.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I do see your point, that the top 4 battle is gruelling this year more than ever so its not really a surprise that we are scrambling to make it.

However with the outlay we made in the summer there is still little excuse for being as far behind as we are now. For example, I can accept Pogba is young, but he was brought in for immediate impact as much as his potential ceiling and he simply failed to deliver thus far. I feel Mourinho contributes towards low confidence in the players that need mental strength and its showing in the lack of conviction of how we play.

The only way he turns this around is going on a great run until seasons end, which means winning big games. So far he only has 1 win in his battles against the top 6. If he can't steer the team towards winning easy games then I don't know how we will begin to go over the bigger sides. To relate this back to the thread title its quite evident LVG had a better first season than Mourinho has. The signs are not looking great at the moment.

It really isn't. As I already argued, league position can only ever be taken in context of the relative strength of the other teams at the top end of the table. And we both agree that competition now is far higher than it was three years ago. So what other basis do you have for saying LVG had a better first season? All the evidence I've seen points towards us being a much better team now than we were then (despite being handicapped with Europa League football) which has been hamstrung by crappy finishing. I reckon Mourinho would give his left bollock to have had a two years younger version of Rooney and Van Persie fresh off the back of being our best player of the season in our squad right now.

 

[VP89]

It really isn't. As I already argued, league position can only ever be taken in context of the relative strength of the other teams at the top end of the table. And we both agree that competition now is far higher than it was three years ago. So what other basis do you have for saying LVG had a better first season? All the evidence I've seen points towards us being a much better team now than we were then (despite being handicapped with Europa League football) which has been hamstrung by crappy finishing. I reckon Mourinho would give his left bollock to have had a two years younger version of Rooney and Van Persie fresh off the back of being our best player of the season in our squad right now.

Rooney IIRC was over the hill by the time LVG came in and Ibrahimovic is actually a far better player than RvP. Aside from that you have Bailly Mkhitaryan and Pogba at your disposal if you're Mourinho and still he's just on course to match LVG's points tally. LVG brought in Di Maria but he turned out to be shite and Young was chosen over him for much of the season.

Aside from the results though, I'm not a fan of the way he handles our players. The constant criticisms don't have a good effect on confidence and it is very apparent. Shaw, Mkhitaryan, Rashford, Martial have all been under much scrutiny from him. Smalling looks a different player under him than under LVG (in a bad way). If he wins Europa its immaterial, and the same goes for if he gets top 4. But as things stand, I don't see him going through this tough run of Premier League fixtures and making the top 4.

WRT our season being hamstrung by crappy finishing, its bad luck if it happens once or twice. But there must be an underlying reason for it to be a chronic occurrence, and to me it points towards low confidence. I'm not going to blame Mourinho for some sitters being missed because players take responsibility, but I do think he harbours negativity and it doesn't help. He doesn't quite have the right approach on how to handle younger players either.

 

[rocks13]

I don't really believe that Arsenal or Man City are stronger this season than last so why hasn't our significant improvement seen us progress past either of those teams

 

[Stacks]

It really isn't. As I already argued, league position can only ever be taken in context of the relative strength of the other teams at the top end of the table. And we both agree that competition now is far higher than it was three years ago. So what other basis do you have for saying LVG had a better first season? All the evidence I've seen points towards us being a much better team now than we were then (despite being handicapped with Europa League football) which has been hamstrung by crappy finishing. I reckon Mourinho would give his left bollock to have had a two years younger version of Rooney and Van Persie fresh off the back of being our best player of the season in our squad right now.

I have to disagree strongly for the simple fact that its in many ways very relative. If Van Gaal won the league in his 1st season (2015), everyone got better (don't know how you measure this) and Jose took over in 2017 and came 2nd or 3rd, you would be very lonely by suggesting Jose had the better 1st season over the champion. It just wouldn't make sense and simply isn't how you measure success or who has performed better. its biggest factors are trophies, league finishes, expenditure etc.

LVG took over from David William Moyes who converted us into a dead mid table side. He Evertonised us. The team was dead in every way. Really down in the dumps, terrible squad, players at the very end of their life span. Many here are still having a go at Ferguson for leaving such an average squad.

Remember, Moyes only signed Fellaini and Mata which is what Van Gaal inherited. Van Gaal restored us in one season, albeit in an unattractive way, so he deserves credit for that. The idea that "everyone is better" is a weird one. Man City had just won the league and Toure was still firing. Liverpool had just had the season of their lives and came 2nd. Jose was managing Chelsea. Van Gaal fended them all off and actually managed to win games against our rivals, helping us keep pace. We beat Liverpool twice for example, rather than draw twice. We could argue that we have better team now that then also so again, to me its all relative.

 

[Moonwalker]

It really isn't. As I already argued, league position can only ever be taken in context of the relative strength of the other teams at the top end of the table. And we both agree that competition now is far higher than it was three years ago. So what other basis do you have for saying LVG had a better first season? All the evidence I've seen points towards us being a much better team now than we were then (despite being handicapped with Europa League football) which has been hamstrung by crappy finishing. I reckon Mourinho would give his left bollock to have had a two years younger version of Rooney and Van Persie fresh off the back of being our best player of the season in our squad right now.

Which really isn't the Van Persie Van Gaal inherited, was it. You are probably the last person that needs to be told that, having lacerated him throughout that season and the one before. I don't think Mourinho would have used even a prime Van Persie, never mind the shadow we are discussing, as it's just not his type of forward.

The same goes for the 4 strikers argument. What's the evidence of Mourinho ever successfully alternating 4 strikers in his career so far? Wouldn't even alternate between Shevchenko and Drogba, were it not for pressure from Abramovich. That's how valuable excess talent in that department is for this guy. Saying "Everything will be dandy, if only he got hold of that which he never used before anyway", is just Dr. Pangloss territory.

I agree that the league is more competitive than ever this year, for whatever that's worth.

edit: I realise there's an amphiboly in my first sentence, because 'lacerated him' doesn't narrow it down in this case. I meant Van Persie, just to be clear.

 

[Hugh Jass]

We are playing much better now than under Van Gaal. Pity about our finishing.

 

[Maradona10]

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[Pogue Mahone]

Which really isn't the Van Persie Van Gaal inherited, was it. You are probably the last person that needs to be told that, having lacerated him throughout that season and the one before. I don't think Mourinho would have used even a prime Van Persie, never mind the shadow we are discussing, as it's just not his type of forward.

The same goes for the 4 strikers argument. What's the evidence of Mourinho ever successfully alternating 4 strikers in his career so far? Wouldn't even alternate between Shevchenko and Drogba, were it not for pressure from Abramovich. That's how valuable excess talent in that department is for this guy. Saying "Everything will be dandy, if only he got hold of that which he never used before anyway", is just Dr. Pangloss territory.

I agree that the league is more competitive than ever this year, for whatever that's worth.

edit: I realise there's an amphiboly in my first sentence, because 'lacerated him' doesn't narrow it down in this case. I meant Van Persie, just to be clear.

You're right about me ragging on Van Persie throughout that season. Would still be an infinitely better option than Fellaini to stick up top alongside Ibra when we're chasing a game. Mourinho may prefer to stick with one striker all season but he's been more than willing to throw the kitchen sink at the opposition goal when we're chasing the game and he's always had top quality back-ups to his striker of choice.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

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That's a cool stat but is it distorted by us mainly having away games left? Or am I getting that arseways?

In other news, Moyes's home record is fecking hilariously bad.

 

[Rajma]

That's a cool stat but is it distorted by us mainly having away games left? Or am I getting that arseways?

In other news, Moyes's home record is fecking hilariously bad.

No, away games don't impact this statistic, if anything with every passing away games that stat will look even better as you every time would add one more game to the total (and we won't have a chance to record any home losses at the same time). However, it is distorted by us mainly drawing our homes games. We are hard to beat aye.

 

[Attila]

That's a cool stat but is it distorted by us mainly having away games left? Or am I getting that arseways?

In other news, Moyes's home record is fecking hilariously bad.

No it has nothing to do with away games

We have played 26 games at home this season and lost 1 to Man City. We've actually won all the home games not played in the league, good omen for Europa league
16 in the league
2 in the FA cup
3 in league cup
5 in europa league

Edit - Moyes played 28 and lost 8 I think if you include the league cup semi final defeat at home on pens

West Brom
Everton
Newcastle
Spurs
Liverpool
City
Swansea FA Cup 3rd round
Sunderland on penalties League Cup semi final

 

[Moonwalker]

You're right about me ragging on Van Persie throughout that season. Would still be an infinitely better option than Fellaini to stick up top alongside Ibra when we're chasing a game. Mourinho may prefer to stick with one striker all season but he's been more than willing to throw the kitchen sink at the opposition goal when we're chasing the game and he's always had top quality back-ups to his striker of choice.

Well that's weasel wording it. I've already conceded that he had quality back ups (which isn't all that surprising given the clubs he managed), the point is he didn't utilise them (anything like Sir Alex), which makes the whole bemoaning of him now not having those options a bit less cogent; just as it undermines the notion that we are in for happy times as soon as he gets them.

Not sure about that infinitely better option either. Brace yourself for pure barbarism - I think Fellaini is quite useful in those scenarios.

Van Persie managed the curious feat of scoring bucketloads without being either a target man or a 'fox in the box'. Don't think any version of him would have helped us much here.

 

[Tosicsleftpeg]

No they aren't. When we went out and bought Pogba Zlatan Mkhitaryan and Bailey alongside Mourinho, a title challenge or at least comfortable finish in the top 3 was the expectation. City and Chelsea had new managers just like we did and Arsenal/Liverpool were never title contenders.

The fact that we are consistently relying on the likes of Liverpool and Arsenal to feck up to give way for us is extremely underwhelming to say the least. If we scrape 4th its avoiding blushes but still an underachievement.

Before the international break we were doing alright, if wed have won either one or both of our last 2 we'd be up in 4 th with games in hand over everyone. We really should have won the last 2 games but the margins are small.

We didn't play well in those games either but for the most part this season we've played well even if we've not been getting win after win. I really think we are close to kicking on and doing very well indeed, people need to look at the big picture despite a poor couple of games.

 

[VP89]

Before the international break we were doing alright, if wed have won either one or both of our last 2 we'd be up in 4 th with games in hand over everyone. We really should have won the last 2 games but the margins are small.

We didn't play well in those games either but for the most part this season we've played well even if we've not been getting win after win. I really think we are close to kicking on and doing very well indeed, people need to look at the big picture despite a poor couple of games.

If we only had a couple of poor games we wouldn't have broken the record for being in a single position (6th) for the most game weeks in a row.

This isn't about the last couple of games, I don't think you have properly read my posts if you think it is. My point is, we should be doing a lot better in the league than we are at the moment. Granting new management and personalle, there is little excuse for such a terrible home win %. It's literally a worse record than what we had under Moyes. And this is throughout the season, not just the last couple of games.