Signs of Progress | Mourinho vs Van Gaal

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Pearson

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LVG's game is insipid and boring to hell, even he admitted it once. But if you look at his coaching career, that is an rare incident, not the rule. He said it would take three years to build a team. I would like to believe last year's team was in transition.

No doubt LVG made terrible mistakes. Most of the Six players he signed last season did not fulfill his expectation, especially Depay was a huge and decisive disappointment considering the fact that his tactics relied heavily on two wingers. Plus, Schneiderlin did not show his ability he showed in Southampton to cover the back four. Lastly, Wayne Rooney's performance in central strike was pretty underwhelming.

In spite of all mentioned above, there were positive signs. As a transitional team, I saw a clear tactics. My understanding is LVG wanted his players to move the ball as quickly as possible to both dislodge the opponent's defending and stultify attacking. the result of that tactics was, generally speaking, the best defensive performance although not without occasional meltdown such as against West Ham and Liverpool. In terms of attacking, we were struggling to create many chances. Having said that, once chances emerged, it was good chance. For LVG, moving the ball efficiently is both defending and attacking. The ideal situation is to dispirit the opposite attacking and pass the ball to our strike, Mathial, Mata, Lingard, Depay when they have got only one or two defenders to beat. Depay's underperformance was fatal, so was Rooney.

Nonetheless, in my opinion, through one-season's experiment, we have known where our problem was and we kind of know how to deal with it. We need a central strike who can press opponents' central backs, a winger who can beat defenders like Mathial, a holding midfielder who could act like a metronome, covering back four and passing the ball to frontfield. Looking back on it, given the endless wave of injuries we encountered last season, the achievement was not unacceptable. especially when you look at where we are at the moment which was not unpredictable.

Mour simply was not good at building a team. Young players hardly thrive under his reign. We do not know how to play without a 36-year-old strike who deserves all the credits but who is not going to stay here for even two years. By the way, Zlatan's not very efficient in front of goal. Our defending is okay. But our manager's understanding of defending is different from LVG who does not distinguish between defending and attacking that much. Mour's performance in defending is made at the cost of attacking. I have to say, our attackers are top-notch, individually. But there was not chemical among them.

Not like LVG, attacking was never our manager's forte. I do not see any big change next season.

Ed Woodward has to be blamed. Manchester United is being transformed into a money machine. Even if you think LVG was inexcusable. You can not sack him and hire someone who has completely different philosophy of football. Time is wasted, and Manchester United do not have much time now. I am pretty demoralized these days. Obviously we can not afford to let him go now, we have to trust him, see what happens.
 

Adebesi

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It really isn't. As I already argued, league position can only ever be taken in context of the relative strength of the other teams at the top end of the table. And we both agree that competition now is far higher than it was three years ago. So what other basis do you have for saying LVG had a better first season? All the evidence I've seen points towards us being a much better team now than we were then (despite being handicapped with Europa League football) which has been hamstrung by crappy finishing. I reckon Mourinho would give his left bollock to have had a two years younger version of Rooney and Van Persie fresh off the back of being our best player of the season in our squad right now.
Im not entirely sure youve made that case. Ill quote the other post as well for clarity:

So Liverpool were expected to finish in top 4, agreed.



Chronic chokers but ALWAYS finish top four, were likely to spend a lot of money (and did spend a lot of money) and finished highest of all the big clubs the season before. Safe to assume they were nailed on for top four.

Which leaves us with City, Spurs, Chelsea and United battling over the other two top four slots. All of whom were in with a very good shout, for various different reasons. Including Chelsea (like Liverpool) having the luxury of no European football at all. Like I said, this is the toughest top four battle I can think of. In the history of the Premier League.
Youre talking about expectations going into this season here, not really how the season has actually panned out. Arsenal are chokers but always finish top 4 - well, Im not sure you would want to bet your house on that now (though you might, they have executed similar Houdini-esque feats before.) Liverpool were "expected" to get into the top 4, but its hardly a given at this stage - theyre behind City if City win their game in hand. City have had their own problems, enough that people are discussing who has done better out of our respective managers in another thread, despite us being - a lot of people would say, though you may well decide to argue with them about it - underwhelming to say the least.

Chelsea and Spurs are the only clubs that will really be satisfied with how their season is going. The other clubs you mentioned will all feel they hoped for more.

This season looked like one where competition would be far greater than it was three years ago. As it happens, yes it is extremely tough, in terms of being close, in terms of it being far from clear, in April, what the table will look like, let's say from third position down. But in terms of appraising Mourinho's performance versus Van Gaal, how tight it is is less relevant than the fact that, if we had got our shit together and beaten teams we really should have beaten, we would be sitting above the rif raf looking down at them, as Spurs and Chelsea are. What looked like it would be a really, really tough and high quality top 4 fight has turned into a dogged, low quality scrap.

So yeah, Im actually with @VP89 on this, or at least pretty close to him. I think if Mourinho delivers the EL this will be a more successful season, but anything less and it will be inferior, and quite clearly so. Either way it isnt clear cut in Mourinho's favour, not at all. There are intangibles you can give a bit more weight to like style of play or potential for improvement or what have you, but I think as far as the cold hard facts go Van Gaal could easily come out of it ahead.
 

Stacks

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LVG's game is insipid and boring to hell, even he admitted it once. But if you look at his coaching career, that is an rare incident, not the rule. He said it would take three years to build a team. I would like to believe last year's team was in transition.

No doubt LVG made terrible mistakes. Most of the Six players he signed last season did not fulfill his expectation, especially Depay was a huge and decisive disappointment considering the fact that his tactics relied heavily on two wingers. Plus, Schneiderlin did not show his ability he showed in Southampton to cover the back four. Lastly, Wayne Rooney's performance in central strike was pretty underwhelming.

In spite of all mentioned above, there were positive signs. As a transitional team, I saw a clear tactics. My understanding is LVG wanted his players to move the ball as quickly as possible to both dislodge the opponent's defending and stultify attacking. the result of that tactics was, generally speaking, the best defensive performance although not without occasional meltdown such as against West Ham and Liverpool. In terms of attacking, we were struggling to create many chances. Having said that, once chances emerged, it was good chance. For LVG, moving the ball efficiently is both defending and attacking. The ideal situation is to dispirit the opposite attacking and pass the ball to our strike, Mathial, Mata, Lingard, Depay when they have got only one or two defenders to beat. Depay's underperformance was fatal, so was Rooney.

Nonetheless, in my opinion, through one-season's experiment, we have known where our problem was and we kind of know how to deal with it. We need a central strike who can press opponents' central backs, a winger who can beat defenders like Mathial, a holding midfielder who could act like a metronome, covering back four and passing the ball to frontfield. Looking back on it, given the endless wave of injuries we encountered last season, the achievement was not unacceptable. especially when you look at where we are at the moment which was not unpredictable.

Mour simply was not good at building a team. Young players hardly thrive under his reign. We do not know how to play without a 36-year-old strike who deserves all the credits but who is not going to stay here for even two years. By the way, Zlatan's not very efficient in front of goal. Our defending is okay. But our manager's understanding of defending is different from LVG who does not distinguish between defending and attacking that much. Mour's performance in defending is made at the cost of attacking. I have to say, our attackers are top-notch, individually. But there was not chemical among them.

Not like LVG, attacking was never our manager's forte. I do not see any big change next season.

Ed Woodward has to be blamed. Manchester United is being transformed into a money machine. Even if you think LVG was inexcusable. You can not sack him and hire someone who has completely different philosophy of football. Time is wasted, and Manchester United do not have much time now. I am pretty demoralized these days. Obviously we can not afford to let him go now, we have to trust him, see what happens.
That's it though. We went from one extreme to the other. most of us are glad to be rid of LVG and are more optimistic of Jose than LVG. The issue is that they are at opposite ends of the spectrum, so we are going to have to seriously dig into our pockets to support Jose so he can get it right. The list of positions you believe we need to fill.....well.....this will take a good while and lots and lots of money. Striker who presses - 60-70 mil. 2 x centre back - 70 mil, talented winger 45+mil, DLP 40 mil. basically another £220 million EPP (English premier price). So all in all Jose would've invested £370 million under your recommendations in just 2 seasons. Thats some serious check booking. add that to the LVG spend and we are the most wasteful club in world football. Not my money though so don't particularly care. Its the price our board pay for being crap at their job!
 

Pogue Mahone

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Im not entirely sure youve made that case. Ill quote the other post as well for clarity:



Youre talking about expectations going into this season here, not really how the season has actually panned out. Arsenal are chokers but always finish top 4 - well, Im not sure you would want to bet your house on that now (though you might, they have executed similar Houdini-esque feats before.) Liverpool were "expected" to get into the top 4, but its hardly a given at this stage - theyre behind City if City win their game in hand. City have had their own problems, enough that people are discussing who has done better out of our respective managers in another thread, despite us being - a lot of people would say, though you may well decide to argue with them about it - underwhelming to say the least.

Chelsea and Spurs are the only clubs that will really be satisfied with how their season is going. The other clubs you mentioned will all feel they hoped for more.

This season looked like one where competition would be far greater than it was three years ago. As it happens, yes it is extremely tough, in terms of being close, in terms of it being far from clear, in April, what the table will look like, let's say from third position down. But in terms of appraising Mourinho's performance versus Van Gaal, how tight it is is less relevant than the fact that, if we had got our shit together and beaten teams we really should have beaten, we would be sitting above the rif raf looking down at them, as Spurs and Chelsea are. What looked like it would be a really, really tough and high quality top 4 fight has turned into a dogged, low quality scrap.

So yeah, Im actually with @VP89 on this, or at least pretty close to him. I think if Mourinho delivers the EL this will be a more successful season, but anything less and it will be inferior, and quite clearly so. Either way it isnt clear cut in Mourinho's favour, not at all. There are intangibles you can give a bit more weight to like style of play or potential for improvement or what have you, but I think as far as the cold hard facts go Van Gaal could easily come out of it ahead.
You've taken quotes from two different tangents of the discussion, which muddies the waters a bit. The longer quote was about this season and how big a battled we had ahead of getting into the top four. For reasons I've already gone into, I said this was going to be a real struggle when the season kicked off and that's how it's turned out. It's been a brutal battle amongst the top 6 teams. Chelsea and Spurs look like they have a bit of breathing space but it's going to be dog eat dog between us, Liverpool, Arsenal and City from here on in.

The shorter quote was about three seasons ago. Van Gaal's first season in charge. He finished 4th in that season, when he was able to focus all his efforts on the league and domestic cups (both of which we exited early) He did so by racking up a total of 70 points, with Spurs in 5th place on 64 and Liverpool 2 points behind them in 6th. Now, if you work out the points/game for each club in the top 6 and extrapolate that until the end of this season, every single of them will end up with 71 points or higher! You'd have to go back to 2013/14 to find the last time that 70 points wouldn't get a team into the top four. And, what's more, all the clubs outside the Top 6 have got considerably more wealthy in recent years (and are spending much more money on players as a result) so it's reasonable to assume those points are harder earned and there can't be any doubt that nailing down a top four slot is unusually difficult this season.

Admittedly, Manchester United's points total is currently on track to be similar to 2014/15 but we're still deep into a European competition, have won one domestic cup and made the quarter finals of another. Then there's all the other metrics in this thread about how much more attacking we are and the fact we're clearly easier on the eye to watch. I just can't agree with the idea that Van Gaal did better in his first season than Mourinho has done in this one, bar a nasty collapse between now and the end of the season.
 

Adebesi

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You've taken quotes from two different tangents of the discussion, which muddies the waters a bit. The longer quote was about this season and how big a battled we had ahead of getting into the top four. For reasons I've already gone into, I said this was going to be a real struggle when the season kicked off and that's how it's turned out. It's been a brutal battle amongst the top 6 teams. Chelsea and Spurs look like they have a bit of breathing space but it's going to be dog eat dog between us, Liverpool, Arsenal and City from here on in.

The shorter quote was about three seasons ago. Van Gaal's first season in charge. He finished 4th in that season, when he was able to focus all his efforts on the league and domestic cups (both of which we exited early) He did so by racking up a total of 70 points, with Spurs in 5th place on 64 and Liverpool 2 points behind them in 6th. Now, if you work out the points/game for each club in the top 6 and extrapolate that until the end of this season, every single of them will end up with 71 points or higher! You'd have to go back to 2013/14 to find the last time that 70 points wouldn't get a team into the top four. And, what's more, all the clubs outside the Top 6 have got considerably more wealthy in recent years (and are spending much more money on players as a result) so it's reasonable to assume those points are harder earned and there can't be any doubt that nailing down a top four slot is unusually difficult this season.

Admittedly, Manchester United's points total is currently on track to be similar to 2014/15 but we're still deep into a European competition, have won one domestic cup and made the quarter finals of another. Then there's all the other metrics in this thread about how much more attacking we are and the fact we're clearly easier on the eye to watch. I just can't agree with the idea that Van Gaal did better in his first season than Mourinho has done in this one, bar a nasty collapse between now and the end of the season.
Ah OK, I thought they were part of the same tangent, comparing Van Gaal's first season to this season and expectations about how difficult this season would be. If those two posts are unrelated, fair enough.
 

Stacks

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You've taken quotes from two different tangents of the discussion, which muddies the waters a bit. The longer quote was about this season and how big a battled we had ahead of getting into the top four. For reasons I've already gone into, I said this was going to be a real struggle when the season kicked off and that's how it's turned out. It's been a brutal battle amongst the top 6 teams. Chelsea and Spurs look like they have a bit of breathing space but it's going to be dog eat dog between us, Liverpool, Arsenal and City from here on in.

The shorter quote was about three seasons ago. Van Gaal's first season in charge. He finished 4th in that season, when he was able to focus all his efforts on the league and domestic cups (both of which we exited early) He did so by racking up a total of 70 points, with Spurs in 5th place on 64 and Liverpool 2 points behind them in 6th. Now, if you work out the points/game for each club in the top 6 and extrapolate that until the end of this season, every single of them will end up with 71 points or higher! You'd have to go back to 2013/14 to find the last time that 70 points wouldn't get a team into the top four. And, what's more, all the clubs outside the Top 6 have got considerably more wealthy in recent years (and are spending much more money on players as a result) so it's reasonable to assume those points are harder earned and there can't be any doubt that nailing down a top four slot is unusually difficult this season.

Admittedly, Manchester United's points total is currently on track to be similar to 2014/15 but we're still deep into a European competition, have won one domestic cup and made the quarter finals of another. I just can't agree with the idea that Van Gaal did better in his first season than Mourinho has done in this one, bar a nasty collapse between now and the end of the season.
Its easy really. The one who has done better is the one who meets the boards expectations, whether that be lifting the title or qualifying for the champions league. Jose in inherited the most heavily invested squad in premiership history and added to it further. Our board will be thinking that with the amount they have put it, we should be where Chelsea are and not scrapping it out with Liverpool and Everton. Many clubs have got richer, but none can break the transfer record at the drop of a hat like we could.

check the transfers incoming and out-coming of the teams below and it isn't as if they are all splashing the cash freely. Many clubs have negative £12-30 million. we were 5 times that in the summer and I would imagine the previous seasons too. If our net transfer expenditure is 5 times that of other teams most years, they shouldn't be a concern. Many clubs actually made a profit too from selling players!

We all know that we pay extortionate fees in England. Crystal Palace are one of the biggest spenders and they have an average team. Same as West Ham. Being richer does not mean they are better, when Bolasie costs 30 million and Benteke also. Both players who were already here 3 seasons ago, playing for smaller sides, and have just had a premium slapped onto them.

These are the kinds of players, clubs outside the top 6 have spend big sums on. they are mostly ok ish players, average or crap. They shouldn't be making the teams much harder, in my book. They are no better than the standard of players, teams outside the top 6 could attract 3 years ago in all honesty. Remember Osvaldo for £15 million in 2013? Even 10 years ago. Who are these guys to cost so much? Peyreya is a bit of a name but the rest are nobody's who we have overspent on. Premier league clubs have been fleecing each other left and right.


Islam Slimani £25.50m
Ahmed Musa £16.58m
André Ayew £20.49m
Manuel Lanzini £10.20m
Yannick Bolasie £24.57m
Borja Bastón £15.30m
Isaac Success £12.75m
Christian Benteke £26.52m
Andros Townsend £13.26m
Jordon Ibe £15.30m
Didier Ndong £17.00m
Jeff Hendrick £10.03m
Marten de Roon £12.75m
Ryan Mason £13.09m

Sofiane Boufal £15.90m
 

TheSweeper

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LVG's game is insipid and boring to hell, even he admitted it once. But if you look at his coaching career, that is an rare incident, not the rule. He said it would take three years to build a team. I would like to believe last year's team was in transition.

No doubt LVG made terrible mistakes. Most of the Six players he signed last season did not fulfill his expectation, especially Depay was a huge and decisive disappointment considering the fact that his tactics relied heavily on two wingers. Plus, Schneiderlin did not show his ability he showed in Southampton to cover the back four. Lastly, Wayne Rooney's performance in central strike was pretty underwhelming.

In spite of all mentioned above, there were positive signs. As a transitional team, I saw a clear tactics. My understanding is LVG wanted his players to move the ball as quickly as possible to both dislodge the opponent's defending and stultify attacking. the result of that tactics was, generally speaking, the best defensive performance although not without occasional meltdown such as against West Ham and Liverpool. In terms of attacking, we were struggling to create many chances. Having said that, once chances emerged, it was good chance. For LVG, moving the ball efficiently is both defending and attacking. The ideal situation is to dispirit the opposite attacking and pass the ball to our strike, Mathial, Mata, Lingard, Depay when they have got only one or two defenders to beat. Depay's underperformance was fatal, so was Rooney.

Nonetheless, in my opinion, through one-season's experiment, we have known where our problem was and we kind of know how to deal with it. We need a central strike who can press opponents' central backs, a winger who can beat defenders like Mathial, a holding midfielder who could act like a metronome, covering back four and passing the ball to frontfield. Looking back on it, given the endless wave of injuries we encountered last season, the achievement was not unacceptable. especially when you look at where we are at the moment which was not unpredictable.

Mour simply was not good at building a team. Young players hardly thrive under his reign. We do not know how to play without a 36-year-old strike who deserves all the credits but who is not going to stay here for even two years. By the way, Zlatan's not very efficient in front of goal. Our defending is okay. But our manager's understanding of defending is different from LVG who does not distinguish between defending and attacking that much. Mour's performance in defending is made at the cost of attacking. I have to say, our attackers are top-notch, individually. But there was not chemical among them.

Not like LVG, attacking was never our manager's forte. I do not see any big change next season.

Ed Woodward has to be blamed. Manchester United is being transformed into a money machine. Even if you think LVG was inexcusable. You can not sack him and hire someone who has completely different philosophy of football. Time is wasted, and Manchester United do not have much time now. I am pretty demoralized these days. Obviously we can not afford to let him go now, we have to trust him, see what happens.
As a LVG fan, I can tell you some things.

When LVG says he is building a team - he isn't nesseriily building a team the way a lot of fans think. It's not going to have griezmann and whoever the fans shout about every few weeks.

What he would have done - is started to accumulate players that are capable of playing in a synchronised manner.
I revert back to Barcelona- messi Suarez and neymar are in the top5 players in the world but other than that - they have an understanding of playing in a three pronged attack as forwards. The midfielders have an understanding of coordinating and the centre backs now how to initiate attacks.

We were starting to see this under LVG. We were seeing players who always stuck to their positions; attacked from their area and the ball would always be on our court in terms of possession. Even after he has gone; the players are keeping possession but playing with more freedom now those restrictions have gone.

I was really disappointed when he left because right at the end we were starting to see signs of it. We had a front 3 of martial, rashford and lingard- although may not be world beaters- set a foundation of understanding and synchronised attack.

I'm sure the season afterwards we would have started to play martial & rashford up top with Lingard in behind making runs to either flanks to hold a 3 sided attack. You can even see Lingard trying to do this now when he comes in to the centre.

With regards to woodward- I had hoped he could see through the boredom that his football produced. I had also hoped that he would see that hiring Jose would make a mixture of ideas. Possession football with 3 forwards isn't ever in Jose's tactics.

The benefits of Jose is that he will do anything to win & that's what a lot of fans want. He will rip things off that is not needed & gets things working functionally. IMO He has never got a single team to play beautifully flowing football - Chelsea, Madrid, Porto all were fully capable to win but lacked something that wouldn't need to be restructured with different players & different tactics to suit them.

What LVG was trying to do was to fix a structure so it becomes very easy for us to renew and see players that are capable to play for us - rather than the other way around & what a lot of fans want ; buying top player and then trying to find a system that works. I look at Conte who is a master of structure & is reaping the rewards of playing to the structure rather than the players.

I have noticed even after LVG has gone from clubs like Barcelona and Bayern - a very few teams end up playing in different formations even after he has gone. Though I am biased; I believe Jose will struggle unless he plays to the formation that is set.

He cannot get a team working well with forwards acting like wingers like martial and rashfford with a target man like ibrahimovic. You cannot play 2 box to box midfielders with no DM in a team that can operate to keep possession whether they want to or not.

Saying all of this - the benefit of this foundation is that a manager like Jose can add to it. We can potentially turn in to a team that can keep possession as well as have physicality etc etc depending on what the manager decideds to bring.

Even as a LVG fan boy, we are on the up but to say that is all down to Jose or all down to LVG is wrong either way.
 

Pearson

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As a LVG fan, I can tell you some things.

When LVG says he is building a team - he isn't nesseriily building a team the way a lot of fans think. It's not going to have griezmann and whoever the fans shout about every few weeks.

What he would have done - is started to accumulate players that are capable of playing in a synchronised manner.
I revert back to Barcelona- messi Suarez and neymar are in the top5 players in the world but other than that - they have an understanding of playing in a three pronged attack as forwards. The midfielders have an understanding of coordinating and the centre backs now how to initiate attacks.

We were starting to see this under LVG. We were seeing players who always stuck to their positions; attacked from their area and the ball would always be on our court in terms of possession. Even after he has gone; the players are keeping possession but playing with more freedom now those restrictions have gone.

I was really disappointed when he left because right at the end we were starting to see signs of it. We had a front 3 of martial, rashford and lingard- although may not be world beaters- set a foundation of understanding and synchronised attack.

I'm sure the season afterwards we would have started to play martial & rashford up top with Lingard in behind making runs to either flanks to hold a 3 sided attack. You can even see Lingard trying to do this now when he comes in to the centre.

With regards to woodward- I had hoped he could see through the boredom that his football produced. I had also hoped that he would see that hiring Jose would make a mixture of ideas. Possession football with 3 forwards isn't ever in Jose's tactics.

The benefits of Jose is that he will do anything to win & that's what a lot of fans want. He will rip things off that is not needed & gets things working functionally. IMO He has never got a single team to play beautifully flowing football - Chelsea, Madrid, Porto all were fully capable to win but lacked something that wouldn't need to be restructured with different players & different tactics to suit them.

What LVG was trying to do was to fix a structure so it becomes very easy for us to renew and see players that are capable to play for us - rather than the other way around & what a lot of fans want ; buying top player and then trying to find a system that works. I look at Conte who is a master of structure & is reaping the rewards of playing to the structure rather than the players.

I have noticed even after LVG has gone from clubs like Barcelona and Bayern - a very few teams end up playing in different formations even after he has gone. Though I am biased; I believe Jose will struggle unless he plays to the formation that is set.

He cannot get a team working well with forwards acting like wingers like martial and rashfford with a target man like ibrahimovic. You cannot play 2 box to box midfielders with no DM in a team that can operate to keep possession whether they want to or not.

Saying all of this - the benefit of this foundation is that a manager like Jose can add to it. We can potentially turn in to a team that can keep possession as well as have physicality etc etc depending on what the manager decideds to bring.

Even as a LVG fan boy, we are on the up but to say that is all down to Jose or all down to LVG is wrong either way.
Agree. LVG is similar to Alex, Pep in the sense they all try to build a system in the teams. I like LVG's philosophy although last season was a torture to watch. But building a team is never a easy job to do. While it is understandable that fans are not happy with it, the club board should have seen something real out of the boredom.

I am still worried. Jose's tactics is stagnating. His teams are best at defending, not attacking. To some degree, I think his idea of football is a bit outdated. His teams always have problems with swift shift between defending and attacking which top teams are good at. He is way too much dependent on top players.

Let's see what is gonna happen.
 
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SalfordRed1960

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As a LVG fan, I can tell you some things.

When LVG says he is building a team - he isn't nesseriily building a team the way a lot of fans think. It's not going to have griezmann and whoever the fans shout about every few weeks.

What he would have done - is started to accumulate players that are capable of playing in a synchronised manner.
I revert back to Barcelona- messi Suarez and neymar are in the top5 players in the world but other than that - they have an understanding of playing in a three pronged attack as forwards. The midfielders have an understanding of coordinating and the centre backs now how to initiate attacks.

We were starting to see this under LVG. We were seeing players who always stuck to their positions; attacked from their area and the ball would always be on our court in terms of possession. Even after he has gone; the players are keeping possession but playing with more freedom now those restrictions have gone.

I was really disappointed when he left because right at the end we were starting to see signs of it. We had a front 3 of martial, rashford and lingard- although may not be world beaters- set a foundation of understanding and synchronised attack.

I'm sure the season afterwards we would have started to play martial & rashford up top with Lingard in behind making runs to either flanks to hold a 3 sided attack. You can even see Lingard trying to do this now when he comes in to the centre.

With regards to woodward- I had hoped he could see through the boredom that his football produced. I had also hoped that he would see that hiring Jose would make a mixture of ideas. Possession football with 3 forwards isn't ever in Jose's tactics.

The benefits of Jose is that he will do anything to win & that's what a lot of fans want. He will rip things off that is not needed & gets things working functionally. IMO He has never got a single team to play beautifully flowing football - Chelsea, Madrid, Porto all were fully capable to win but lacked something that wouldn't need to be restructured with different players & different tactics to suit them.

What LVG was trying to do was to fix a structure so it becomes very easy for us to renew and see players that are capable to play for us - rather than the other way around & what a lot of fans want ; buying top player and then trying to find a system that works. I look at Conte who is a master of structure & is reaping the rewards of playing to the structure rather than the players.

I have noticed even after LVG has gone from clubs like Barcelona and Bayern - a very few teams end up playing in different formations even after he has gone. Though I am biased; I believe Jose will struggle unless he plays to the formation that is set.

He cannot get a team working well with forwards acting like wingers like martial and rashfford with a target man like ibrahimovic. You cannot play 2 box to box midfielders with no DM in a team that can operate to keep possession whether they want to or not.

Saying all of this - the benefit of this foundation is that a manager like Jose can add to it. We can potentially turn in to a team that can keep possession as well as have physicality etc etc depending on what the manager decideds to bring.

Even as a LVG fan boy, we are on the up but to say that is all down to Jose or all down to LVG is wrong either way.
Tend to agree.

Just a shame that the players like ADM, Schniederlin, and Depay didn't work out and that he chose to 'always play his captain'.

I think if we had seen a 3rd year of LVG, apart from Losing 3/4 of the caf, we would see a very different Martial, Rashford, TFM and Shaw. I have no idea who he would have brought in, but I would put money on it that none of Jose's buys would be on the list. Not that they are bad, but they probably wouldn't fit into his system. Pogba would be benched, just like Herrera was for p*ssing about too much.

Jose just needs to get the players playing to their strengths, they play as though they have had shackles put on them. Something that LVG was criticized for.

Based on what I have seen this year, Jose would definitely have been the wrong choice to takeover from Moyes.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Tend to agree.

Just a shame that the players like ADM, Schniederlin, and Depay didn't work out and that he chose to 'always play his captain'.

I think if we had seen a 3rd year of LVG, apart from Losing 3/4 of the caf, we would see a very different Martial, Rashford, TFM and Shaw. I have no idea who he would have brought in, but I would put money on it that none of Jose's buys would be on the list. Not that they are bad, but they probably wouldn't fit into his system. Pogba would be benched, just like Herrera was for p*ssing about too much.

Jose just needs to get the players playing to their strengths, they play as though they have had shackles put on them. Something that LVG was criticized for.

Based on what I have seen this year, Jose would definitely have been the wrong choice to takeover from Moyes.
Does not compute.
 

SalfordRed1960

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Does not compute.
When Herrera was not following the script LVG benched him last season. I think if Pogba performed as he has done this season, the same would apply to him if LVG was manager. The only exception to the rule was Rooney who could do sweet FA and still play next game.

As for shackles, an example would be in the game against Everton. We had a counter attack, Young bombing down the right, Lingard in front. Instead of Lingard conitinueing the threat and moving forward, he stopped and came back into RB. Momentum lost, Young passes backwards as he has no forwards to release to.
 

Pogue Mahone

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When Herrera was not following the script LVG benched him last season. I think if Pogba performed as he has done this season, the same would apply to him if LVG was manager. The only exception to the rule was Rooney who could do sweet FA and still play next game.

As for shackles, an example would be in the game against Everton. We had a counter attack, Young bombing down the right, Lingard in front. Instead of Lingard conitinueing the threat and moving forward, he stopped and came back into RB. Momentum lost, Young passes backwards as he has no forwards to release to.
And what about all the many occasions when Lingard didn't stop his runs forward? Which is presumably why he's created the second highest number of chances/game for us this season (considerably higher than anyone ever managed under LvG) and is consistently praised by pundits for making so many off the ball forward runs.

Nah, the idea that we're looking even remotely as shackled under Mourinho as we were under our former manager is preposterous. But I know I'm talking to myself here, as you were consistently bizarrely deluded about life under Louis, long past the point of no return.
 

tomaldinho1

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If people on here genuinely feel we were headed somewhere under LVG then you have short memories. No faulting his trying to implement his philosophy but it made for horrible football and did not get positive results.

Mou's team this year is a weird one as we were winning when we looked a bit average and drawing when we create loads of chances. If you take a step back it probably is how you'd expect a first season to pan out with a new team. Same happened for Klopp, same is happening with Pep and it's worth remembering Conte was having the worst start of all before whipping out some Italian tactical magic.

We lack quality and consistency in the final third, have a half decent midfield and a solid if unspectacular defense. We need someone on the RW to ease pressure of Martial and to sort out LB (Basically commit to Shaw or buy a top LB). If a top CM or CB becomes available in the summer then we should go for them and hopefully Ibra stays.
 

SalfordRed1960

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And what about all the many occasions when Lingard didn't stop his runs forward? Which is presumably why he's created the second highest number of chances/game for us this season (considerably higher than anyone ever managed under LvG) and is consistently praised by pundits for making so many off the ball forward runs.

Nah, the idea that we're looking even remotely as shackled under Mourinho as we were under our former manager is preposterous. But I know I'm talking to myself here, as you were consistently bizarrely deluded about life under Louis, long past the point of no return.
I didn't compare Lingard under LVG and Jose. But under Jose we have seen a significant amount of players who have not played with freedom when Jose has a particular plan in place. You just have to look at our performances against the big teams or even the earlier rounds of EFL. He sets his stall out and expects the players to follow the plan.
I have never been deluded about LVG, just felt he got some serious and unjustified grief on here. For every criticism people made of LVG the same criticism can be made for Jose. Some caftard's like you just make out Jose is something he clearly is not.
 

Dr. Funkenstein

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I'm concerned with our progress too. Everyone is. Doesn't change the fact that the battle for top four is outrageously difficult and certainly a damn sight harder than LVG faced in his first season in charge (another manager who lucked out by having a season with no European distractions).
If all the top PL teams are this much better now, why don't they take the CL by storm this season? The EL is hardly a distraction up to the semi finals, a club like United should be able to rest a lot of players in the early stages of the EL.
 

Pogue Mahone

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If all the top PL teams are this much better now, why don't they take the CL by storm this season? The EL is hardly a distraction up to the semi finals, a club like United should be able to rest a lot of players in the early stages of the EL.
Cup competitions mean feck all. Are Leicester the best club in England this season? Because they are, using your logic. The 11th place PL team is through to the last 8 in elite European competition. Look how strong the English league is!
 

Pogue Mahone

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Bloody hell. Only just realised that we've only been beaten in the league 3 times this season. Joint lowest number of defeats in the league (along with Spurs).

We lost 18 league games in our two seasons under Van Gaal (8, then 10). We also repeatedly got our arse handed to us in cup games. 12 defeats under Moyesy.

Really does blow my mind that anyone could insist they can't see obvious signs of improvement...
 
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TheSweeper

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Tend to agree.

Just a shame that the players like ADM, Schniederlin, and Depay didn't work out and that he chose to 'always play his captain'.

I think if we had seen a 3rd year of LVG, apart from Losing 3/4 of the caf, we would see a very different Martial, Rashford, TFM and Shaw. I have no idea who he would have brought in, but I would put money on it that none of Jose's buys would be on the list. Not that they are bad, but they probably wouldn't fit into his system. Pogba would be benched, just like Herrera was for p*ssing about too much.

Jose just needs to get the players playing to their strengths, they play as though they have had shackles put on them. Something that LVG was criticized for.

Based on what I have seen this year, Jose would definitely have been the wrong choice to takeover from Moyes.
That was really gets me depressed. LVG Has a poor history of signings from Riquelme to depay and I doubt the third season would be any better apart from one or 2 players.

Yet, injuries or not - I absolutely adored the team towards the end of that season. We had kids like TFM playing well above their age, likewise rashford, martial and if looking in terms of 'game experience' Lingard. Then you had people also coming with decent performances and break outs like Poole, Varela with players like tuenzebe and pereira seemingly capable of breaking through in similar fashion.

I feel if an opposition fan saw Griezmann, Pogba and the next superstar playing in a team - it would be scary as hell. However, we were starting to have a whole bunch of young players playing in a synchronised manner and add WC players on top ( LVG isnt the best manager to do that) - that would literally make them cry.

You look at TFM - as far as games have gone he has hardly put a foot wrong. Whilst we are crying for our next defensive midfielder- he doesn't get a single game. Pogba and TFM seem in theory a good midfield Unit.

Ultimately it disappoints me - there is an ever so slight difference between the likes of Barcelona, Bayern to the likes of PSG and Madrid. I could see that we were heading to have the foundations of a team that overplayed opposition by our tactics which would lead to us finding it easier to find the real game changing players that fit in to our system (the latter being with a better manager than LVG)

Fans assume that Bayern and Barcelona were good enough from the get go and they just achieved this greatness in a season or 2 by attracting the best players in the world. That is wrong - they built on a structure first and foremost and even some of the best players in the world couldn't adapt because their inability to fit the system ie Ibrahimovic at Barcelona. If LVG had stayed for one more season - that structure would have set ( what the people who dislike him called VanGaalising United). Right now everybody seems eager to get rich quick and go down the Madrid, PSG, Chelsea/city route without acknowledging the fact that we have a gameplan that we could one day potentially be masters of.

What I am seeing though this year is that this system is still running through the club - we are holding on to possession and clubs are respecting this and parking the bus like they have never done before. We still have quality young players who can put a shift in and I am sure we will reap the benefits of this.

@Pogue Mahone - it's not that anyone is saying we played better last year. This year we have had better results and it has been more attractive but if your attributing that all down to Jose rather than the LVG shackles coming off then I cannot see where you are coming from. The LVG shackles would have come off eventually by whoever followed. Your really telling me that keeping such possession is down to Jose? I understand as someone who doesn't see some of the positives during the Van Gaal era that he was just a manager who was clueless and that restricting the players was just his piece of toast - however with restriction comes control and that was his plan all along.
 

Dr. Funkenstein

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Cup competitions mean feck all. Are Leicester the best club in England this season? Because they are, using your logic. The 11th place PL team is through to the last 8 in elite European competition. Look how strong the English league is!
When it's about one club the CL doesn't tell us much because it can be a matter of coincedence. But if City, Spurs and Arsenal got kicked out early/convincingly it's a clear indication they're not particularly good this season. Without Leicester having a miraculous season, it should be easier to make the top 4.

Bloody hell. Only just realised that we've only been beaten in the league 3 times this season. Joint lowest number of defeats in the league (along with Spurs).

We lost 18 league games in our two seasons under Van Gaal (8, then 10). We also repeatedly got our arse handed to us in cup games. 12 defeats under Moyesy.

Really does blow my mind that anyone could insist they can't see obvious signs of improvement...
You can keep dragging in Moyes to pretend there's progress because of Mourinho, but LvG didn't get his arse handed to him in the FA cup. I don't understand why you value the ability to draw games that much either.
 

iKnowNothing

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We create more. But are still hampered by piss poor finishing and inconsistent winger play.
Wonder what's gone into Rashford and Martial and to an extent Mkhi - None of these are scoring enough. Add to the fact that we have all these tall lumps at the back but none of them pose any kind of aerial threat nor are we good with the delivery from the corners.

It has to be a confidence thing with the forwards and a lack of ability with the guys at the back.
 

Pogue Mahone

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You can keep dragging in Moyes to pretend there's progress because of Mourinho, but LvG didn't get his arse handed to him in the FA cup. I don't understand why you value the ability to draw games that much either.
Eh? Van Gaal's shite record of 18 losses in 2 seasons stands on it's own two feet. Nothing to do with Moyes.

We competed in five cup competitions with him in charge. Got our arses handed to us in four of them.
 

Jazz

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As a LVG fan, I can tell you some things.

When LVG says he is building a team - he isn't nesseriily building a team the way a lot of fans think. It's not going to have griezmann and whoever the fans shout about every few weeks.

What he would have done - is started to accumulate players that are capable of playing in a synchronised manner.
I revert back to Barcelona- messi Suarez and neymar are in the top5 players in the world but other than that - they have an understanding of playing in a three pronged attack as forwards. The midfielders have an understanding of coordinating and the centre backs now how to initiate attacks.

We were starting to see this under LVG. We were seeing players who always stuck to their positions; attacked from their area and the ball would always be on our court in terms of possession. Even after he has gone; the players are keeping possession but playing with more freedom now those restrictions have gone.

I was really disappointed when he left because right at the end we were starting to see signs of it. We had a front 3 of martial, rashford and lingard- although may not be world beaters- set a foundation of understanding and synchronised attack.

I'm sure the season afterwards we would have started to play martial & rashford up top with Lingard in behind making runs to either flanks to hold a 3 sided attack. You can even see Lingard trying to do this now when he comes in to the centre.

With regards to woodward- I had hoped he could see through the boredom that his football produced. I had also hoped that he would see that hiring Jose would make a mixture of ideas. Possession football with 3 forwards isn't ever in Jose's tactics.

The benefits of Jose is that he will do anything to win & that's what a lot of fans want. He will rip things off that is not needed & gets things working functionally. IMO He has never got a single team to play beautifully flowing football - Chelsea, Madrid, Porto all were fully capable to win but lacked something that wouldn't need to be restructured with different players & different tactics to suit them.

What LVG was trying to do was to fix a structure so it becomes very easy for us to renew and see players that are capable to play for us - rather than the other way around & what a lot of fans want ; buying top player and then trying to find a system that works. I look at Conte who is a master of structure & is reaping the rewards of playing to the structure rather than the players.

I have noticed even after LVG has gone from clubs like Barcelona and Bayern - a very few teams end up playing in different formations even after he has gone. Though I am biased; I believe Jose will struggle unless he plays to the formation that is set.

He cannot get a team working well with forwards acting like wingers like martial and rashfford with a target man like ibrahimovic. You cannot play 2 box to box midfielders with no DM in a team that can operate to keep possession whether they want to or not.

Saying all of this - the benefit of this foundation is that a manager like Jose can add to it. We can potentially turn in to a team that can keep possession as well as have physicality etc etc depending on what the manager decideds to bring.

Even as a LVG fan boy, we are on the up but to say that is all down to Jose or all down to LVG is wrong either way.
What a good insightful post.

I feel somehow worried with Jose. The game has moved on but he hasn't and sadly I don't think he will. I wish he would add to his coaching team.
Even though I'm no expert on the technical side of things - even I could see the chemistry or whatever it was between Rash and Martial. I thought that was one of the few positive things from last season that Jose could work with. Instead, he tore that up. And you're right, we were getting better towards the end.
Unfortunately, the negativity had gone too far by then, and LVG had to go. Such a shame.
 

Jazz

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When Herrera was not following the script LVG benched him last season. I think if Pogba performed as he has done this season, the same would apply to him if LVG was manager. The only exception to the rule was Rooney who could do sweet FA and still play next game.

As for shackles, an example would be in the game against Everton. We had a counter attack, Young bombing down the right, Lingard in front. Instead of Lingard conitinueing the threat and moving forward, he stopped and came back into RB. Momentum lost, Young passes backwards as he has no forwards to release to.
This was LVG's big downfall. Can't believe he couldn't see through whatever the hell Rooney offered behind the scenes. Guy lost his job partly due to Rooney's bad performances, and after all that loyalty, I've never heard Rooney say a kind word about Louis.
 
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Wonder what's gone into Rashford and Martial and to an extent Mkhi - None of these are scoring enough. Add to the fact that we have all these tall lumps at the back but none of them pose any kind of aerial threat nor are we good with the delivery from the corners.

It has to be a confidence thing with the forwards and a lack of ability with the guys at the back.
The defence gmhas been excellent. They can never be blamed for our forwards total lack of killer instinct. Our attack is like a pride of lions compromised of one Lion (Zlatan) and a group of antelopes.
 

amolbhatia50k

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One thing about LVG is that he sorted our defence out. People spouted so much nonsense about our defensive record being due to defensive football but it has seemlessly carried on this season from the last. We regained team spirit and defensive solidarity even the football was utterly painful to watch particularly last season.
 

redspoony

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The biggest sign of progress for me is our unbeaten run. Under LVG that would not be an unbeaten run. We're picking up points in games we would have lost in the last few seasons (not enough points, but they're points all the same).
 

R'hllor

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This kind of discussions seems take other one side or the other,there is no middle. So much hate for LvG,not giving him credit for anything positive while giving him all the credit for negative. On other side there are people who wont admit our boring style of play under LvG either. When it comes to JM,some more,some less are so far up in his arse that doubt they gonna ever find a way out. At some point those same will first turn against JM and they will be loudest in similar thread like this talking against ex manager from the next manager`s arse.

On this forum isnt a surprise because this place is full with gold fishes and Dorys. One day people will have a go at JM while not taking in consideration who was before him,how that team played or what it won. Same how people didnt do when LvG took from Moyes and so on.

For me there are some positives and some negatives under JM so far,just how i saw positives and negatives under LvG but you cant say that here,because there some "special" people charging like guardians talking shit.
 

iKnowNothing

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The defence gmhas been excellent. They can never be blamed for our forwards total lack of killer instinct. Our attack is like a pride of lions compromised of one Lion (Zlatan) and a group of antelopes.
True, I'm not blaming the defenders for not scoring a crap ton of goals. All I want is for us to at least posses some sort of an aerial threat with the kind of tall players we have in defense. The odd goal wouldn't hurt either.
 

Andersons Dietician

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As a LVG fan, I can tell you some things.

When LVG says he is building a team - he isn't nesseriily building a team the way a lot of fans think. It's not going to have griezmann and whoever the fans shout about every few weeks.

What he would have done - is started to accumulate players that are capable of playing in a synchronised manner.
I revert back to Barcelona- messi Suarez and neymar are in the top5 players in the world but other than that - they have an understanding of playing in a three pronged attack as forwards. The midfielders have an understanding of coordinating and the centre backs now how to initiate attacks.

We were starting to see this under LVG. We were seeing players who always stuck to their positions; attacked from their area and the ball would always be on our court in terms of possession. Even after he has gone; the players are keeping possession but playing with more freedom now those restrictions have gone.

I was really disappointed when he left because right at the end we were starting to see signs of it. We had a front 3 of martial, rashford and lingard- although may not be world beaters- set a foundation of understanding and synchronised attack.

I'm sure the season afterwards we would have started to play martial & rashford up top with Lingard in behind making runs to either flanks to hold a 3 sided attack. You can even see Lingard trying to do this now when he comes in to the centre.

With regards to woodward- I had hoped he could see through the boredom that his football produced. I had also hoped that he would see that hiring Jose would make a mixture of ideas. Possession football with 3 forwards isn't ever in Jose's tactics.

The benefits of Jose is that he will do anything to win & that's what a lot of fans want. He will rip things off that is not needed & gets things working functionally. IMO He has never got a single team to play beautifully flowing football - Chelsea, Madrid, Porto all were fully capable to win but lacked something that wouldn't need to be restructured with different players & different tactics to suit them.

What LVG was trying to do was to fix a structure so it becomes very easy for us to renew and see players that are capable to play for us - rather than the other way around & what a lot of fans want ; buying top player and then trying to find a system that works. I look at Conte who is a master of structure & is reaping the rewards of playing to the structure rather than the players.

I have noticed even after LVG has gone from clubs like Barcelona and Bayern - a very few teams end up playing in different formations even after he has gone. Though I am biased; I believe Jose will struggle unless he plays to the formation that is set.

He cannot get a team working well with forwards acting like wingers like martial and rashfford with a target man like ibrahimovic. You cannot play 2 box to box midfielders with no DM in a team that can operate to keep possession whether they want to or not.

Saying all of this - the benefit of this foundation is that a manager like Jose can add to it. We can potentially turn in to a team that can keep possession as well as have physicality etc etc depending on what the manager decideds to bring.

Even as a LVG fan boy, we are on the up but to say that is all down to Jose or all down to LVG is wrong either way.
Great post. I echo much of those thoughts and agree right at the very end it looked as if they were just starting to come to terms with the system.

It needed a few players to turn the possession in to attack. There was intrest in Sane we know that much and Jesus. Would we have beaten City to them we'll never know. I think if there wasn't the uncertainty around his future we would have acted quicker on Sanches but I feel like he needed someone like a David Silva in midfield. Maybe Herrrera would have gotten his chance when he stopped abandoning his position which is something he has stopped this season.
 

Brigred

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To be honest all 3 managers since sir Alex have been shite
 

bucky

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Not a fan of excuses, but some might be interested in this article. Can't be arsed to sign up there, so I can't read it, but some might want to discuss it.
 

Raoul

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Keepers do strangely play very well against us and we do hit the post an oddly ridiculously amount of times. Those things aside, we are still not fully clicking in the opponents final third. The players just don't seem to have that killer instticnt of going for the throat as they did during the Fergie era. It's all down to confidence and squad solidarity. That will continue to improve but Jose really needs to nail that down before buying more players.
 

Jaybomb

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Van Gaals loyalty to Rooney is the reason he failed as United boss.

If he didn't sell Hernandez and RVP last season, we would have finished higher. No doubt about it.
 

Un4givableB

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The biggest sign of progress for me is our unbeaten run. Under LVG that would not be an unbeaten run. We're picking up points in games we would have lost in the last few seasons (not enough points, but they're points all the same).
True

Under LVG too many games were toss ups even against crap teams, if they scored first,then we were done,under Jose almost no doubt that crap teams will beat us but us winning is the issue.
 

Oaencha

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Some people on here have very short memories. We played trash under LVG; the worst I've ever seen us play in my 28 years of supporting Utd. We were looking a little better up until Christmas but then turned to crap. His transfer dealings were mostly poor so I don't believe we would have kicked on this season if he was still in charge. IMO Rashford, Martial and the FA Cup were the only highlights of his reign.

Don't get me wrong, Jose is far from perfect but at least we have reasons to be optimistic about the future now. Our finishing has been dreadful but we are infintely more entertaining and very hard to beat. With 2-3 quality signings this summer I reckon we will be challenging for the title next season. It's also Jose's first season with us; give the man time to build.
 

Pearson

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This was LVG's big downfall. Can't believe he couldn't see through whatever the hell Rooney offered behind the scenes. Guy lost his job partly due to Rooney's bad performances, and after all that loyalty, I've never heard Rooney say a kind word about Louis.
LVG's treatment of Rooney was absolutely confusing. He never hesitated to replace any player who failed to fulfill his expectation of what the player should do for his philosophy. Herrera is the player we all like a lot because he is a pure Manchester United player. But I heard he was bashed during the break of the game against Everton even if he scored a beautiful goal simply because he lost his position and did not do what he expected. In that respect, Rooney seemed to me the player who always violate his instruction. It was not infrequent, even from my amateurish point of view, that Rooney always appeared in a wrong position. He was very inclined to appear in midfield when he was played in central forward position.

Likewise, he openly proclaimed his did not like some players who lost the ball easily. Obviously Rooney was probably the player who lost the ball most.

At the beginning of the first season, he bought Falcao because he wanted a player who can score twenty goals for a season. the next season, he played Rooney as a central strike, for the first half season before Rooney was injured. Rooney's goal scoring record was not even close to LVG's expectation.

By all the criterions of his good player according to his philosophy, Rooney should not have played for him that long. Rooney should supposedly be ostracized before any other player in this club.

He did not banish Rooney at all. In fact, he kept ignoring his philosophy and searching painstakingly for a position for his captain! I remember for the first season for the first few games he played Rooney as a striker, then he was placed in midfield because he openly said that Rooney's goal-scoring record as a striker was not very convincing. That marked the beginning of a long process of switching Rooney between midfield and striker Until his last game of FA final where Rooney was playing in the midfield. It was quite ironical that Mou at the first press conference said Rooney was not a good midfielder.

furthermore, he even said in a report Rooney is one of his five best players throughout his career.

So it was a enigma for me.
 

dakingpin1999

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If you spend as much money as Utd did over the past 3 years and have had a proven world class manager in lvg and now jose there shouldn't be any excuses for Utd. All teams that have spent fortunes over the years have achieved much more than Utd have. Utd have been the worst big spenders in the history of football. Jose's utd is much better than lvgs utd as they create more chances in a game shame that Utd players upfront aren't clinical enough. Jose will get it right just give him another 200m in the summer
 
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