You can't really say it's a missed opportunity since we have no one to replace him, no planning at alll.
Sir Jim reportedly deems ETH's position not a priority unless results are particularly dire - missed opportunity or the right decision?
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Show me the pivot and I’ll hold my hands up.
Argument all along has been that interims often fail and “scoring a few goals” probably isn’t reason enough for INEOS to burden themselves with installing and babysitting a new manager into the club when they haven’t even gotten their feet under the table yet and are likely to embark upon a full scale restructuring of the entire footballing side of the club.
Quite true.
We need to see what Ratcliffe has in mind before showering him with praise or criticism.
If he wants to keep EtH on, fair enough, but what's the vision etc...
If he wants to sack EtH, who does he want as a replacement and why?
To be fair, he should have little to no say in these decisions which appear (and rightfully so) will be left to the new sporting experts / directors that INEOS plans to bring to the club.
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We need the people in place elsewhere before we look at changing the manager. No point hiring someone else and then the new directors come in and don’t fancy him. It’s those directors who should be making long term plans, including who manages the club.
Give someone the time to come in and assess, then either sack in May or stick with him and change transfer strategy.
Give someone the time to come in and assess, then either sack in May or stick with him and change transfer strategy.
Dude, I can't have this argument if we are simply going to look at literal league positions and decide whether there was a benefit with an interim or not. It has to be more nuanced than that.
Let's look at both our interim stints, the longer period ones:
(1) Ole - Do you think it would have been right to continue with Jose even though it was clear that it wasn't working? Or should we have given Jose the "mandatory Sir Alex six year moratorium and a completely new squad of 25 players" before we could take that decision?
You say Ole didn't work, I beg to differ on that. I don't believe in this theory that the players "stop playing for the manager and phone it in"; imo, what happens is that a manager's ideas fail to get across after a point and when those instructions and ideas don't pass through everything starts to look awry & disjointed. What comes across as lack of effort is simply confusion and doubts in the team on what they are supposed to do.
Under Ole it definitely did work, we had an immediate life in performances, the results got better, we beat PSG, one of the top European clubs, over two-legs in the CL, the mood got better, our style of play did get better and we scored more goals. It ultimately didn't last the season and but we did need that change to happen. The issue was that the club was under a stupid management, who instead of waiting till the end of the season gave him a new permanent contract and then went for a British revolution which makes thing look worse now.
(2) Rangnick - Even if we take your criteria, he started when we were down in 8th and finished 6th, getting us Europa for next season. So, that's a success?
However, that isn't the reason I would count his stint as successful. He was given a mandate to assess the squad and in the following windows or two help let the club get it's recruitment straight. He had good ideas about which players were not working out and was knowledgeable about young players across Europe which we needed to develop a good squad. Now, instead of his using his understanding of the squad and his deep knowledge, the idiot Murtogh went back on his word and gave the keys of the Kingdom to this clown ETH to get in the likes of Anthony at exorbitant fees and 10x is wages and set us back years.
I think in both our cases the management made decent decisions by letting Jose and Ole go but then fecked up by not following through on what should have been done.
Now I don't have time for deep Google research to find out exactly every detail of Chelsea interim's, but getting an interim is not only about winning whatever cup is remaining or getting the highest league position achievable. It's also about lifting the moral of a demoralized squad who the current manager cannot sell his/her ideas too anymore.
Aye, that is fair enough, should say Ineos instead of Ratcliffe, though he was running a dictatorship.
Point remains, though. Let's see what he, sorry, they can do.
The big difference being that there was no massive restructuring of a club going on whilst we replaced managers and put in temporary interims. It was easy for the interim to come in work with the people who were there and knew the current set up.
Despite all that neither interim gave anything that could be claimed “success”. We didn’t qualify for the Champions League under either interim and barely improved our league position under one.
I think the only difference with us here is that you believe an interim might help your entertainment as a fan and possibly bring more exciting football for a few months. You know it’s very unlikely that he’s going to massively improve our league position.
I on the other hand think it would be an unnecessary distraction for INEOS just to “possibly” produce more enjoyable football for a few months.
They have so many other things to do and quite likely they want to spend the next 4 to 5 months with their new sporting experts / directors deciding on a new manager rather than having to babysit a new guy coming into the club, who knows nothing about how the club works whilst nor they either.
What has restructuring got to do with getting a temp manager to manage a squad of players?
By that logic, we have had only one successful permanent manager out of six in the last 35+ years and two really successful ones in the last 80. May be we should stop looking for permanent managers too.
I don't think keeping someone in the job who is clearly not working out is doing anyone any favors. I also don't understand how it helps in the restructuring process, unless and until they still believe in ETH and think he is the man for the long term.
Let me ask you this: it says they won't make a decision "unless things get dire", in a hypothetical scenario where we lose let's say 3-4 of our next 3-4 games, should they make a decision then or not? And if they did, that'll hamper their restructuring? In that case, we can lose all of our games and ETH will still last the season? Or is there a cut off point?
INEOS are not even officially in the door yet. They're doing a root and branch investigation which is going to take time. Ten Hag is lucky to be in the job still, but given the circumstances, it would be an idiotic move for them to come in a sack the manager without even starting their investigation.
I’m not sure what you’re arguing anymore.
I understand you personally are desperate for a change in the hope it sparks life into our performances, but I’m simply saying that often isn’t the case.
If we lose our next 4 games I think he’ll lose his job regardless yes, and yes I think it’s a situation INEOS would really like to avoid. It would be another distraction when they are already about to tackle a huge restructuring job.
Clearly INEOS will want injured players to return leading an upturn in performances, allowing them to concentrate on recruiting a DoF and someone to head up player recruitment. I think it’s logical that they will at least want Blanc, Brailsford, DoF & recruitment in the door and working full time before any huge football decisions are made.
Personally I think there’s a huge chance the new guys will want their own manager in place for the Summer and they will spend the following months deciding first on the coach and preparing for his arrival.
I’m not sure why you think any of that is controversial or worth arguing over?
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It's okay. I think ETH should be replaced as we are just meandering into nowhere with him for the rest of the reason and you think that an interim should only be brought in if a team has a squad which is world class from top to bottom as you define, and that too only in certain conditions. Otherwise, failing managers should be allowed to finish seasons as nothing comes out of hiring an interim.
Both reasonable points of view, I guess. Good exchange, bud!
Let's keep our fingers crossed that the Local Lad and team can come up with better solutions in the these next 6 months that'll take us back to the top in the next couple of years. Cheers!
Think the season has been written off to be honest. Unless teams go on a horrendous slump and we going on a miraculous winning streak cannot see us getting CL football, remember with EL the two cup winners take a spot I think, so unless someone already qualified for CL win those trophies it is less chance of Europe. People saying get a temporary manager, who exactly do they have in mind? The club is a mess and needs a lot of sorting out. Maybe we will just have to bite the bullet and realise this. They have to get the decisions right.
Is not what I said at all.
We have a very different set of circumstances with new parts owners, a new CEO and new football directors coming into the club in a matter of weeks. I think INEOS would prefer to avoid having to instantly bring in a new manager to the club, especially when evidence shows us that interims often do fail to make significant improvements.
I’ve also said that if we were to look a side in absolute freefall and lose the next 3-4 that INEOS would likely be left with no choice but to fire EtH, and I’d be backing them too.
He probably wants to give him a shot under him before he makes a decision, or he's backing the manager publicly. You're not going to put pressure on the manager this early on before you're officially in place. With this being said, there are things above ETH that are more essential that will eventually trickle down to him. Once the bigger issues are resolved ETH's position will become essential.
Are we dire yet?
Well, the result in isolation isn't dire. But he has now been present for the "performance" and he didn't look too happy.
I'm glad Sir Jim Ratcliffe is smarter than most of our fans in here
I mean it's very clearly beyond dire at this point
What people need to grasp is that SJR or anyone on the board isn't going to rush into a snap decision of sacking him in the middle of the season, even if things are pretty bad, they won't do anything until they have the appropriate people in place in the next couple of months, at which point i've no doubt the appropriate people (DOF etc) will make plans as to what to do with ETH and who to replace him with should they wish to get rid and then select a manager relevant to the clubs identity and how they want to play. Which is how it should be, what is the point in sacking him now when the new footballing structure still isn't in place, it's just a clusterfeck waiting to happen, again. Have some patience.
I’d be amazed if he doesn’t get until the end of the season to prove himself (or otherwise). We are not making top 4 and unlikely to win the FA Cup so not much to play for. It is however an opportunity to establish a playing style for next season and beyond. Having said all of that, I think he’s a gonner in summer.
Really now? Are you saying those who want to keep ETH - who is leading the team to a top-ten finish - are smarter than the majority who can clearly see he's bobbins and needs to go? Bear in mind a manager with a much better pedigree and tactical nous in Conte is available. We don't have to sign him permanently, we can just bring him in to steady the ship and bring in someone who has a more attacking style. Yet apparently there is NO ONE available.
What playing style? He's established no style in the 18 months he's ben here.
It's the right decision even if I want ten hag gone asap.
The season from a league perspective is a write off, we have no chance for top 5 as even if we sorted ourselves out, we basically need a 90 point pace from here until the end of the season just to have a chance at finishing 5th. So all planning should be based on what is better for us next season and the 2 seasons after that. This season is half a season of friendly games and hope for a miracle in the fa cup to at least get some silverware.
Ratcliffe needs to implement the structure, or the people who will implement the right structure. That won't be instant. They also then need to identify the managers they want, and make their approaches. Again, might not be able to get someone in asap, this isn't a 1 month job and we shouldn't rush into the decision thinking it might save our season. The window for saving our season passed about a month ago, now it's the "let's focus on the future" point.
The season from a league perspective is a write off, we have no chance for top 5 as even if we sorted ourselves out, we basically need a 90 point pace from here until the end of the season just to have a chance at finishing 5th. So all planning should be based on what is better for us next season and the 2 seasons after that. This season is half a season of friendly games and hope for a miracle in the fa cup to at least get some silverware.
Ratcliffe needs to implement the structure, or the people who will implement the right structure. That won't be instant. They also then need to identify the managers they want, and make their approaches. Again, might not be able to get someone in asap, this isn't a 1 month job and we shouldn't rush into the decision thinking it might save our season. The window for saving our season passed about a month ago, now it's the "let's focus on the future" point.
He’s had 18 months to prove himself and establish a playing style?
Which is why I said that I think he’ll be gone in summer as I don’t think that he’ll be able to establish a playing style in the next four months. Not sure that there’s an obvious candidate to replace him so I think he’ll be left in position until summer and assuming no upturn in our fortunes, the new Management above him will have lined up a replacement.
Give it a year. I'm sure the caf will think they know better
Agreed. And that gives the new management also time
Yes he has, hence the reason why I think he’ll be gone in summer. I just don’t think they’ll rush to sack him.
He almost fecked up Nice until he learnt some very hard lessons, don't be so sure that he knows more than we do.Give it a year. I'm sure the caf will think they know better
I was joking, of course he'll know more than us
It feels inevitable at some point this season. The bald fool is completely lost.
He is starting to get players back, now he has to show what system he does want. Agree that there is no point getting rid now. See what happens from now on in, if nothing changes, then with a DOF etc in place they can start sounding out potential managers and what type of signings and sales are needed in the summer and make a nice long list of them.
I'd guarantee that they are already working on a list of people, however the new structure will be set up, whoever the new people will be, I would guarantee that they've already been working on those names and plans. I think it's far more likely that they're working on the assumption that they're sacking Ten Hag at the end of the season, unless he can do something to change their mind and change their plans. It's not a case of "we have faith in him until he fails", as he's already failed this season.
Hopefully his ownership is ratified and rubber stamped by the next game. I have no idea if he will prove successful or not, but he is pretty much our only hope right now.
What do you people expect him to say? Sacked in the morning?
It's not Ratcliffe himself that makes much of a difference, it's the people he's hopefully going bring in and the structure they'll hopefully put in place that I'm excited for, after a decade of Joel and Ed basically playing football manager with the club, it'll be nice to have competent people in place focused on the success of the club.
Yes let's write off next year too
That's the opposite of the long term approach they're taking though. If we're spending time trying to identify a caretaker manager in a panic, then we're spending time not planning for the summer. The latter is a much more sensible approach.
Depends what their standard is, have they asked for CL football or just any sort of European football. If it is CL he will have to make the team perform out of their skin to get it.