Solskjaer vs Moyes Performance

[Infra-red]

Hardly damning since the sample size is quite small but it's not a good stat no

33 games - almost a full season (a season in which, extrapolating ppg, we'd finish on 65 points). That's 6th/7th place form.

If you take out the new manager bounce, it's obviously relegation form (bookies currently have that at 1000/1 - maybe worth a fiver).

 

[stevoc]

Quite agree.
For a start David Moyes was vastly more experienced at managing in the PL.
He was also used to managing with limited resources and squad limitations.
In our current position, the most important thing is to get results irrespective of the style of play.
Winning games increases confidence which is very low at the moment.
We must remember that while his time at United was not a success, the players decided that they were not going to perform for him.
I am not advocating Moyes but in comparison with Ole his record is at least comparable.

Limited resources? United just spent the best part of £150m this summer and would/could have spent more if the right player was available.

Also thats a myth the players didn't have a meeting and just decide to stop performing.

 

[VP89]

I think Ole would have kept Herrera but he wanted a massive wage which I don’t think he justified by any means. I understand you want the quick fix- we all do, and a whole new team bought in the last transfer window, but I’m prepared to give him a bit more time. Sure he’s a rookie, he’s going to make rookie mistakes. I’m sure he didn’t want to start this season with what we have up front and in midfield. I could be wrong. Like you said there were other options but We don’t know what went on behind the scenes, maybe he tried to get them, maybe he didn’t for whatever reason who knows?

I don't want a quick fix, but I want players brought in to replace players who have left. That tends to happen even during a rebuild.

Regarding your bold point, I genuinely think that was his intention. We weren't linked to a single central midfielder and he has kept talking up Rashford Martial and Greenwood saying he's happy with what he has. He's very misguided on the quality of his actual players.

 

[Havak]

How many PL games has Ole been in charge for now? 25 yet?

I think I'd be more interested in seeing a comparison of Moyes' first 25 games (or whatever Ole's current total is) against Ole. Even then, Moyes taking over a title winning side and finishing 7th is likely to be a bigger failure unless Ole is looking like finishing in the bottom half or something.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Cherrypicking. Don't do that.

it isn't cherry picking to take ole's games since march?

 

[Sterling Archer]

No not really.

Sorry but you say the squad Ole took over was so bad then you automatically also acknowledge Jose's accomplishent. That's that.

 

[Untd55]

Also, you conveniently left out the form that got him appointed in the first place.
Add 10 more wins and then redo your total.

Doesn’t suit your agenda, does it?

On top of the above it's also an unfair comparison anyway since you're only counting the games since Ole got the job permanently. He was manager for over 3 full months before that and won nearly every game, which I suspect would make the stats look a bit different.

Well they do because Solskjaer has been managing the team since December, so only factoring in games since 28th March is misleading.

Include those three months and your stat becomes vaguely meaningful.

I understand not counting that period as his good and bad results have come in two distinct periods. It is not like it is intermittent, so they do need to be ignored when you have such a long run of bad results.

It is starting to look like the initial results were an aberration and what we are seeing now is the norm.

 

[evil_geko]

Moyes inherited title winning squad that played together, Ole didn't, terrible compare.

 

[Offside]

The intention when Ole took over should have been to improve the form immediately and then give us plenty of time to find the ideal manager.


The absolute worst scenario from that long-term would have been that he does well, is given the job before the season is even over and then the season ends up a disaster and we are stuck with him. Woodward is an absolute clown.


I’m still not saying I want Ole sacked but this is yet another example of that moron Woodward getting it wrong. Error after error from him has led us to this mid-table state we find ourselves in.


Why on earth wouldn’t he wait until the end of the season to appoint him? He even bizarrely waited until after we’d lost to Arsenal and Wolves to appoint him. This tells me how utterly clueless he is about football but clued up on PR, getting swept up in how well Ole was doing without having any foresight or knowledge of how football works in terms of the momentum of new managers, and giving him the job after 2 losses to try and give the fans a boost after than appalling performance in the cup at Wolves. He then delivers yet another comical Summer as head of our recruitment.


United will never get anywhere while Woodward is making the footballing decisions and that’s obvious to absolutely everybody.

 

[Sterling Archer]

This is disingenuous. Solskjaer took over once we had already been run into the ground by Mourinho and were firmly midtable. Liverpool were playing better football than us despite finishing below us the previous season too.

I disagree. The players were the very same. Their form was off but that doesn't take away from their ability to play football. This was most spectacularly highlighted by the winning run the team went on as soon as Ole was appointed, before Ole really had a chance to imprint himself on the team.

As for Liverpool's style, is irrelevant. Looking pretty doesn't win the league.

 

[Treble]

How many PL games has Ole been in charge for now? 25 yet?

I think I'd be more interested in seeing a comparison of Moyes' first 25 games (or whatever Ole's current total is) against Ole. Even then, Moyes taking over a title winning side and finishing 7th is likely to be a bigger failure unless Ole is looking like finishing in the bottom half or something.

The squad Moyes inherited was title-winning only because the league was poor at that point and Klopp and Guardiola weren't around. Jose's squad would've been title-winning if Guardiola's City weren't in the competition.

Basically, Ole has dismantled the squad that had the best league season after Fergie in order to build a better squad. He needs time to do it but the record so far is appalling. I'm afraid the youth revolution will take the team down to midtable competing with Leicester, Everton and some other teams for a top 8 finish.

 

[Handré1990]

Ole

Appointed
18/19 (Mar 28, 2019)
Points per match
0.93

David

Appointed
13/14 (Jul 1, 2013)
Points per match
1.73

Is anyone surprised about the above points per game stat? Considering Moyes's tenure is ridiculed and seen as the lowest point at the club in decades.

Ole's points per game won has been much lower. The current squad is clearly being changed to have a younger average age but I feel it shows how our standards and expectations have fallen over the years to not be anywhere near as critical of Ole when his record since being made permanent manager has been far worse.

Discuss....

Oh my, talk about mismatches! Your thread is an idiot. It was considered the lowest point because it was. Moyes took a squad that swaggered into 1. practically unopposed the season before and finished 7th. With negative records falling left down and centre.

Next

 

[stevoc]

Sorry but you say the squad Ole took over was so bad then you automatically also acknowledge Jose's accomplishent. That's that.

Again not really, he had us playing consistent football that season and did well to finish 2nd. But its hardly the remarkable feat you suggest.

Also i didn't say the squad Ole took over was ''so bad'' as you put it i was pointing out that it clearly wasn't as good or experienced as the one Moyes took over.

 

[POF]

Ole

Appointed
18/19 (Mar 28, 2019)
Points per match
0.93

David

Appointed
13/14 (Jul 1, 2013)
Points per match
1.73

Is anyone surprised about the above points per game stat? Considering Moyes's tenure is ridiculed and seen as the lowest point at the club in decades.

Ole's points per game won has been much lower. The current squad is clearly being changed to have a younger average age but I feel it shows how our standards and expectations have fallen over the years to not be anywhere near as critical of Ole when his record since being made permanent manager has been far worse.

Discuss....

Ole has 56 points from 32 games, so 1.75 points per game.

So, he has a better record, in a stronger league despite taking over a club on its knees while Moyes has a worse record after taking over the team that dominated the league the previous season and were champions by a clear 11 points.

Most importantly, Ole actually has a plan as opposed to Moyes not having a clue what he was doing.

 

[wolvored]

Ole inherited one that came in second to the greatest side ever seen in English football.

Their starting points aren't as far off as we want to force ourselves to believe.

How many points were we behind again? How many points where we in front when Moyes took over?

 

[RedRonaldo]

Talking about agenda driven stats manipulation. Half of the stats are missing for Ole case.

 

[Sterling Archer]

How many points were we behind again? How many points where we in front when Moyes took over?

89 points
W 28 D 5 L 5
81 points
W 25 D 6 L 7

Like I said, it's not as dramatically different as folks tell themselves to feel better about Ole's awful managing so far.

 

[sunama]

When we hired Moyes, he was an upper-mid table manager. He delivered exactly that when he took over MUFC.
When we hired Jose, he was a serial winner. He got us 2 trophies in his first season and got us 2nd place in his 2nd season.
When we hired Ole, he was a bottom of the EPL table manager (did he get Cardiff relegated, when he managed them?). He is delivering those results, to us now.

It does seem to be the case that previous performance, is a very good guide to how the manager will perform when he joins us.

 

[witchtrials]

I understand not counting that period as his good and bad results have come in two distinct periods. It is not like it is intermittent, so they do need to be ignored when you have such a long run of bad results.

It is starting to look like the initial results were an aberration and what we are seeing now is the norm.

In that case you should only compare it with the results from the later part of Moyes' reign. Otherwise it's not a fair comparison.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Moyes was a disaster waiting to happen. He was offered the United job on the premise that he would steady the ship and achieve a smooth transition after the "anomaly" that was Sir Alex Ferguson (a quarter of a century at the same club, 20 years staying at the very top of the football world). The problem was that our board believed at the time that the squad left behind by SAF would be able to make up for Moyes' lack of title-winning experience (at least at the beginning of his tenure) and that it could also maintain the club's prodigious status in the PL (3rd place was a disaster, three years without a title were simply unacceptable & failure to qualify for the CL was unthinkable) until the transition was complete. In fact, they believed they could afford six years to slowly rebuild the squad, thus Moyes' lengthy contract. Where Moyes completely fecked everything up was when he decided to keep no one from the previous staff and when he thought that the best way to impose himself was by giving everyone the "military treatment". Which excluded the two linchpins of the previous season, RvP & Carrick, from doing their personal training, which led to injuries, which led to the loss of form. He chose to "hide" behind the long-term plan, scared to force changes and believing that he could just sit there dithering forever. In the end, Moyes was crying for the time he never got.

Solskjaer's results thus far may not be good enough but he has chosen a different route. He has convinced the board that the squad needs to be reshaped from up to bottom. This was not the case in the previous seasons when both LvG and Jose were allowed to bring in some players of their own choosing but it always felt that a fundamental rebuild was never in the cards. Both these managers worked under the assumption that the spine of a good squad was already there and that all that was needed were a few quality additions. The fact that they were both very arrogant and set on their ways didn't help them when they had the time to force changes, so when they realized that the task at hand was bigger than they thought, they sounded like the boy who cried wolf. Solskjaer, on the contrary, seems to understand the need for a significant change. People keep moaning about how thin the squad is but his message is loud and clear: "i don't want these players, they're not part of my plans and i'd rather go down by having the academy products in the squad than trying to see if the same old players will fail me like the failed the previous three managers". If only Dybala hadn't been so stubborn, Lingard/Pereira would have been options from the bench right now and the Caf would have been a nicer place.

Is he going to succeed? Who knows... the risk he's taking by believing that Chelsea are poor, that Spurs have hit their ceiling (Poch's stance seems to kind of confirm that) and that Arsenal are... Arsenal and therefore he can take the hits from managing an inexperienced and thin squad and still attain a CL spot may not pay off in the end. But if by the end of the season we are in the top four, we have tested which academy players can take the next step and we have targeted another three first-teamers, we'll be in a far better place than the one dour David Moyes would ever dream of getting us to. It's OK to have your reservations about Solskjaer's credentials and it's fine to be concerned about the welfare of the club under his tenure (it's a matter open for fruitful discussion) but if you can't see the significant difference that is the willingness to take a personal risk for the better good between Moyes & Solskjaer, then i really don't know what to say to you.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

What a strange sample of statistics to use.

 

[Sterling Archer]

What a strange sample of statistics to use.

What makes you say it is a strange data set?

 

[sunama]

/end thread

Why end thread?
We are in 8th place and it doesn't look like this is going to get better, anytime soon.
We have been demonstrating relegation from since the PSG match, last season.
Ole is currently getting a very easy ride from the fans.
The real question is whether or not Woodward will give Ole a free ride, if this continues. I can't see how Ole can not be fired, if we continue the season like this.

 

[Buster15]

Limited resources? United just spent the best part of £150m this summer and would/could have spent more if the right player was available.

Also thats a myth the players didn't have a meeting and just decide to stop performing.

The limited resources was relating to our midfield and attack.
Regarding the myth, you know that do you.

 

[humdinger]

Moyes had quality players who were straight off the back of a title winning season. Some were a bit old, yes, but that squad should have been fighting for the title again, and certainly top 4. There were no other standout teams - even City weren’t the force they are now.

Ole has far less quality available to him and the league is much tougher. It’s not remotely comparable.

 

[wolvored]

89 points
W 28 D 5 L 5
81 points
W 25 D 6 L 7

Like I said, it's not as dramatically different as folks tell themselves to feel better about Ole's awful managing so far.

We were 11 points behind 4th place when Ole took over with a disjointed mish mash of players. We had won the league by 11 points when Moyes took over. He was also left a very good side

 

[stevoc]

The limited resources was relating to our midfield and attack.

There was money there to strengthen the attack if the right players had been available and willing to come.

Regarding the myth, you know that do you.

Right back at you mate. Do you know for a fact that the squad to a man decided to be unprofessional and just stop performing for Moyes?

Its possible but not likely, its much more likely that some players just declined, and others were short of confidence and morale in general was very low especially after Xmas. Which lead to the whole team who were used to winning and strong leadership performing poorly.

 

[Tom Cato]

Ole

Appointed
18/19 (Mar 28, 2019)
Points per match
0.93

David

Appointed
13/14 (Jul 1, 2013)
Points per match
1.73

Is anyone surprised about the above points per game stat? Considering Moyes's tenure is ridiculed and seen as the lowest point at the club in decades.

Ole's points per game won has been much lower. The current squad is clearly being changed to have a younger average age but I feel it shows how our standards and expectations have fallen over the years to not be anywhere near as critical of Ole when his record since being made permanent manager has been far worse.

Discuss....

For future reference: If you're going to use extremely limited statistical foundations as a groundwork for discussion, you should be upfront about the important variables:

1) Entirely different squads - Technically the variations between the two sides of Moyes and Solskjaer are too numereous to accurately predict. It's the principle of how a single kick of the ball will change the outcome of the entire game, or more outrageously commonly known, if you travel back in time and kill a bug, the Communists rule Europe. The point being that the two are not comparable for a reason. The 2013 SAF team would have demolished this team. We got some building blocks, but we need to add quality.

2) Moyes inherited a champions team. And he immediately turned it into mush. And quite frankly it's been up and down ever since. We have not had consistency in our model since 2013. Where SAF was a master at finding building blocks that can stay in the club for a decade or more, we replaced him with managers who buy and buy and buy and sell and sell and buy and buy and what are we even doing anymore. Hell, Mourinho barely aknowledged that we have a youth academy.

OGS is the only manager since SAF who's even come out and said flat out that what we have been doing the past 7 years have not worked. Time to change the program and build a new Manchester United. Unfortunately that process takes time. So we can do what we've done since SAF retired and hire new managers like a everyday club, or we can stick with one and give him the tools he needs to get the job done. He was not given the upgrades he need either forward or in midfield. That's on the board. Not Ed Woodward, not OGS. It is entirely on the Glazer family.

3) OGS was appointed interim manager 19th December 2018. In that time span he has a PPG avg of 1,72. SAF had a point average of 2,01 in his career with the club. An extraordinairy number.

The relevant stats since SAF retired with win percentile of ridiculous 59.7%

David Moyes: Point avg: 1,76 - Win percentage: 52.94%
Louis Van Gaal: Point avg: 1,81 - Win percentage: 52.43%
Jose Mourinho: Point avg: 1,97% - Win percentage: 58.3%
Ole Gunnar Solskjær: Point avg: 1,72 - Win percentage: 51.5%

4) Teams.

David Moyes inherited a champions team. Completely failed to revitalize and work with the team in place when he came in and was promptly fired. This actually sucks because he was hand picked by SAF himself.

Louis Van Gaal: Was given nearly everything he pointed at, and not pointed at. LVGs tenure marks a historical period of Manchester United, of unprecedented terrible recruitment of pedigree allstar footballers who have passed the age of 25. So many of these were brought in with no concern for how they might fit into the style of play. You just buy to buy. Angel Di Maria is the single worst purchase in this clubs history, and that includes Alexis Sanchez.

Jose Mourinho: Implemented typical Jose Mourinho football. Sit back, counter-attack. Considering how close we were to SAF's numbers, I have never ever seen so much complaining and hate towards a manager in my time as a football fan from some elements of the fanbase. The difference of course being that Manchester City and Liverpool are in the middle of the greatest time period of their football clubs this century, and we are not.

Ole Gunnar Solskjær: Inherited Jose Mourinhos sit-back counterattack squad. Opened with the best start of a Premier League manager in the leagues history. Was promptly let down by the same squad in a equally epic fashion since they werent fit enough to do what the manger wants them to do: Run, press, retrieve, score. Thats what this entire pre-season was all about. But you need players that fit the bill. Players that are extremely quick, got supreme ball handling skills, and players who can thread passes like Messi.

We bought a titan in Harry Maguire. I love everything about this guy, a true leader. Unfortunately he is also a human being so you know, mistakes will happen. AWB has been a revelation, absolutely fantastic. Daniel James has somehow turned into a primary scoring threat. - All 3 of OGS's purchases have all had fantastic season openers. Give the man some credit when he's been able to identify these pieces, brought them to the club, and made them a system in which they can thrive.

He got rid of players that do not fit our teams style of play. Quick passing, high press, high workrate. Players like Romelu Lukaku, Alexis Sanchez (I was not a fan of letting him go, but I get it), Matteo Darmian, Maroune Fellaini, all players that do not have a future at this club. You know whose fault it is that we didnt replace them? The board, in its entirety. We are also hampered by our Europa League particiaption. Jadon Sancho was never a go this season. Bruno Fernandes lose the ball more than Pogba, and I see what everyone thinks about that. Paulo Dybala had impossible terms with his image rights not being his own, and so on. Know what's uplifting? That we are not going to buy the second best option. Its the player we want, or its no one, until our man is available.

The obvious argument is obviously: Why the difference between Mourinho and OGS: Entirely different style of play. It left the team exposed and ultimately out of form at the tail end of the season. The play so far has been very, very good apart from things we can't really control through tactics. Personal faults, big personal faults: Maguires marking, Lindelöfs positioning to get beaten by a header, Pogba losing the ball, allowing a goal against. And again, De Gea letting keeperfood balls through. Paul Pogba ANd Marcus Rashord both missing successive penalties. No amount of tactical genius are going to get rid of those. Its up to the players to execute the managers vision.

The thing to take away from this is that our style of play should mean we are currently top of the league with Liverpool. Instead we are middling the table only due to personal huge personal mistakes that turned out to be extremely costly, in conjunction with our offensive players suddenly needing a lot of chances pr goal. We have absolutely dominated possession and chances created every game since the season opener. Just as we expect Manchester United to do.

So yeah, I completely agree with OGS here: We don't have a lack of form. We have a lack of results. Give the process time, it's going to get better.

 

[Mr Anderson]

As mentioned, Moyes had the better squad to work with. But Ole is learning has he goes, with zero help from above him so it is a really tough task.

Ole speaks well - but is doubling over himself a lot (expecting Alexis to feature one week - to stating it didnt work out for him here so better he moved on). He is too nice for the role you feel, a potential yes-man to Woodie. But any manager would struggle here with the shit the board and woodie are dragging us through.

It isnt a simple answer here - the club as a whole is run badly, that will always filter down the line.

 

[Ish]

I’d probably say we have to give Ole until the end of the season - and the January window to see if we’re able to make some more progress. Top 4 or winning the EL to get into the UCL should get him another season.

Missing out on top 4/EL - I’d question his tenure - this was the case for all previous managers after all. But then some other context would need to be taken into account - progress on field, youngsters, style of play etc. But I’d hope Woody would get fecked off or at least a DoF would be in place, before we go from a manager with 1 vision, to another with a completely different vision again (like LvG to Mourinho).

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Personally I think Ole's situation is closer to that of SAF's hiring than Moyes'. Joining at a time when we were on a down rather than an up, loads of deadwood to get rid of, a direct rival dominating the league and trying to focus on youth.

Also, unlike Moyes, Ole spent all of his formative years under SAF, watching the master at close hand during training and, because he spent a lot of time on the bench, would have seen the in-match decisions being made.

Now, I'm not saying that Ole is the new SAF, but you can't say Ole is the new Moyes either. How about supporting the club rather than looking for stats so you can find a reason to not support the manager.

SAF was always a big believer in building up for the second half of the season, have a look at the stats for 92/93. I believe we got less points for the first four games than this season and we won the prem.

Basically, shove your stats up your arse

 

[stevoc]

89 points
W 28 D 5 L 5
81 points
W 25 D 6 L 7

Like I said, it's not as dramatically different as folks tell themselves to feel better about Ole's awful managing so far.

So Moyes took over a team that came 1st on 89 points with an 11 point gap yet finished 7th on 64 points.

While Solskjaer took over a team that was 19 points of the top in 6th with 26 points and finished 6th on 66 points.

Granted not identical scenarios given Moyes had almost an entire season, a pre-season and two transfer windows and Solskjaer only came in in late December. But if anything Solskjaer actually did the much better job of the two then, especially considering the relative strength and experience of the respective squads available to each manager.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

What a strange sample of statistics to use.

The start date of Ole's reign maybe?

 

[Ibrahimorich]

Don't know why people are so up in arms about the permanent manager stats?

Since he got the full-time job he's been absolute wank. Facts are facts.

 

[NinjaZombie]

Stupid comparison. Moyes took over the league champions, and took them to 6th. I'd argue that Ole would've done way better than Moyes did if he'd inherited the 14/15 squad.

 

[Sterling Archer]

We were 11 points behind 4th place when Ole took over with a disjointed mish mash of players. We had won the league by 11 points when Moyes took over. He was also left a very good side

Personally I think the entire thread asinine.

So Moyes took over a team that came 1st on 89 points with an 11 point gap yet finished 7th on 64 points.

While Solskjaer took over a team that was 19 points of the top in 6th with 26 points and finished 6th on 66 points.

Granted not identical scenarios given Moyes had almost an entire season, a pre-season and two transfer windows and Solskjaer only came in in late December. But if anything Solskjaer actually did the much better job of the two then, especially considering the relative strength and experience of the respective squads available to each manager.

I can understand why that's the starting point you'd like to consider foe Ole. Like you say, it's not apples to apples. It's more complex an evaluation than simply saying one squad was better than the other whether tangible points comparison or just subjectivity. The core of the team under Moyes was multiple title winning one. The core of the team that Jose won the Europa League and then second in the league was not of equivalent pedigree, but it still had plenty of winners. Really, this (unnecessary) comparison to Moyes' performance is best suited for the end of the season.

But we're doing it at wrong. We should be supportive of Ole til we're sunk and on Ed to back his manager in the transfer window. So far it's been as miserable a squad management for Ole.

 

[Kostov]

In general perhaps but on the 2018 transfer window i'm not so sure, in hindsight its a good thing we didn't spend huge fees/wages on players the wrong side of 30 like Willian, Boateng and Perisic. Would have made the current rebuilding process more difficult trying to shift them on.

We actually don’t know the whole story about the 2018 transfer window. Maguire was mentioned and rumored to be a target also. I’m sure there were other targets we didn’t know, but Mourinho had his fetish for older transfer target, that’s why we should have a DOF with a longterm vision.

 

[Velvet Revolver]

Ole

Appointed
18/19 (Mar 28, 2019)
Points per match
0.93

David

Appointed
13/14 (Jul 1, 2013)
Points per match
1.73

Is anyone surprised about the above points per game stat? Considering Moyes's tenure is ridiculed and seen as the lowest point at the club in decades.

Ole's points per game won has been much lower. The current squad is clearly being changed to have a younger average age but I feel it shows how our standards and expectations have fallen over the years to not be anywhere near as critical of Ole when his record since being made permanent manager has been far worse.

Discuss....

Stats are biased. Like for example, you completely ignored the pre-season games

 

[always_hoping]

Should do it versus pochettino 4 wins in 15

Since Ole arrived in December Poch has got less points and wins with Spurs and remember the spurs gig has less pressure and expectation than United and Poch has a better panel to choose from.

 

[CM]

The squad he took over finished 2nd the previous season. It wasn't decimated it was just in terrible form and demotivated. Which is why when Ole took over it proved itself capable of good form. It's Ole that has taken that in form team he had as interim and made it shit. But it's just fitness right?!?

There's really weird logic in this thread that 2nd place was shit, that we should count the initial great form Ole had us in but at the same time we shouldn't now expect 2nd or even the form Ole had us in initially. If anyone had created a thread during that good run as interim last season saying Ole will have us 6th next season you'd have the same people who want to lock this thread outraged, now they'll have you believe it's acceptable and they've always believed it to be likely and acceptable.

Those are two separate points. I'm not making excuses for Solskjaer and certainly wouldn't view a 6th place finish as a success, but it isn't accurate to suggest the squad he inherited was the 2nd best in the league either.

You might disagree but I felt the football we played was shit for large parts of the season we finished 2nd. There was also a clear change in momentum after Liverpool signed van Dijk. They reached a Champions League final, bought well the following summer and went on to get 97 points last season while we dicked around with Mourinho and stagnated.

I disagree. The players were the very same. Their form was off but that doesn't take away from their ability to play football. This was most spectacularly highlighted by the winning run the team went on as soon as Ole was appointed, before Ole really had a chance to imprint himself on the team.

As for Liverpool's style, is irrelevant. Looking pretty doesn't win the league.

I was referring to our league position when I said we were firmly midtable, not the player's quality.

I don't actually disagree with much of what you've said there apart from the last bit. Liverpool had a well functioning attack for the last few seasons with Klopp, we had nothing of the sort with Mourinho. I might've had some hope for Solskjaer making some progress there if he and/or Woodward didn't leave us 2-3 players short in midfield and attack.