Some much needed perspective on the United and City squads

[villain]

The idea that some say, that Pep & Jose entered similar jobs is far from the truth, from everything from starting-point of how the squad had been for a time and how the club had invested in getting back up.
It's also noticeable when going through the stats of the different seasons that City were more under-performing points-wise when you look at goal-difference and league-position than United were.

Starting from 2013/14 and to now:

Spoiler: Season-stats in numbers

City
Goals: 102
Goal against: 37
Goal difference: +65
Points: 86

United:
Goals: 64
Goals against: 43
Goal difference: +21
Points: 64

Let's go look at how we did under LvG compared to City (2014/2015):

2nd place City
Goals: 83
Goals against: 38
Goal difference: +45
Points: 79

4th place United:
Goals: 62
Goals against: 37
Goal difference: +25
Points: 70

2nd season (2015/2016)

4th place City:
Goals: 71
Goals against: 41
Goal difference: +30
Points: 66

5th place United:
Goals: 49
Goals against: 35
Goal difference: +14
Points: 66

Then Jose & Pep take over, 2016/17:

3rd place City:
Goals: 80
Goals against: 39
Goal difference: +41
Points: 78

6th place United:
Goals: 54
Goals against: 29
Goal difference: +25
Points: 69

So far this season:

1st place City:
Goals: 85
Goals against: 20
Goal difference: +65
Points: 81

2nd place United:
Goals: 58
Goals against: 23
Goal difference: +35
Points: 65

You can see in the graphs below that City were performing at a higher level in almost every department, all the way since 2013/14 when Sir Alex wasn't around anymore.
Keep in mind that we threw the league under Jose's season to put our eggs in the Europa League basket.
Also do note that there are 8 games left of the season, so this years stats can still improve.

Going by my graphs, we're improving in every area: Table position, points, goals scored, goals against & goal-difference.

Spoiler: Goals scored

Spoiler: Goals-against

Spoiler: Goal-difference

Spoiler: Points

Spoiler: Table position

Key-ish players in the two teams from 2013 and til now:

Spoiler: Man Utd

Patrice Evra - Left - Not replaced currently
Di Maria - Left - Not replaced currently
Nemanja Vidic - Left - Not replaced currently
Rafael (not for all) - Left - Replaced
Rio Ferdinand - Left - Replaced
Nani (not for all) - Left - Replaced
Wayne Rooney - Left - Replaced
Van Persie - Left - Replaced


Zlatan Ibrahimovic - Aged & leaving - Replaced
Carrick - Aged & leaving - Replaced

David De Gea - Here
Anthony Martial - New
Paul Pogba - New
Romelu Lukaku - New
Eric Bailly - New
Matic - New
Alexis Sanchez - New

Supposed to be key-players (presumably):
Bastian Schweinsteiger - Left
Radamel Falcao - Left
Henrikh Mkhitaryan - Left

In short:
We've lost an entire defense (if we add Rafael) and only had one proper replacement in Bailly & a in-squad replacement for Rafael in Valencia who is now ageing. Struggled with not having a midfield (which we've somewhat gotten but it isn't fully functional and we lack quality options to the main two) and have replaced our attacking options decently.

Spoiler: Manchester City

Joe Hart - Left - Replaced
Pablo Zabaleta - Left - Replaced
Joleon Lescott - Left - Replaced
Jesus Navas - Left - Replaced
Gael Clichy - Left - Replaced
Gareth Barry - Left - Replaced
James Milner - Left - Replaced
Samir Nasri - Left - Replaced
Aleksander Kolarov - Left - Replaced
Edin Dzeko - Left - Replaced


Vincent Kompany - There
Sergio Aguero - There
David Silva - There
Fernandinho - There
Yaya Toure - There / aged - Replaced
Raheem Sterling - New
Nicolas Otamendi - New
Kevin De Bruyne - New
Leroy Sane - New
Kyle Walker - New
Ederson - New

Top players/transfers just to fill the squad:
Ilkay Gundogan - New
Bernardo Silva - New
Benjamin Mendy - New
Danilo - New
Aymeric Laporte - New

In short:
They've changed out their attackers, their midfield, their defense & their keeper while adding depth and overall increased the quality of all sides of their squad. The exceptions in their side are those who were the absolute top players back when they won the league in 2013/14 in Aguero, Kompany, Toure & Silva who either still play at the top level or has been replaced with high quality.


City are performing well, there is no denying that. But we've had a long(er) way to go and Jose has been able to drag us up to 2nd while improving the quality of our squad from the shambles we've been at. I understand and agree with those being frustrated at how we play, and while I too don't think Jose will have us playing super-entertaining football (going by what people seem to think of as entertaining), he sure isn't doing a bad job with improving the club compared to those around us.

Excellent post sir, thank you.
Really puts into perspective where we are, we’re making progress but there’s a gap between us and them.

 

[An Irish Red]

It's a lot more difficult to build an elite attack than it is to build a reliable defence.

They already had De Bruyne, Sterling, Aguero and Silva... we had Martial and pretty much nothing else in attack. That's a big difference.

 

[Blue doomer]

I know its a given on here that Pep had the better squad and thats why the PL has been won by us.

At the beginning of the season i was just curious if most on here tipped City for the title?

 

[Mercurial]

Half the City squad shaved their heads bald just to fit in 'socially' and show subservience to the team and coach, (i.e accepting to put individualism aside for team) can we say the same here? I agree with the growing up demands of Jose.

 

[SwansonsTache]

I know its a given on here that Pep had the better squad and thats why the PL has been won by us.

At the beginning of the season i was just curious if most on here tipped City for the title?

I had you and Chelsea as favourites.

 

[haram]

Half the City squad shaved their heads bald just to fit in 'socially' and show subservience to the team and coach, (i.e accepting to put individualism aside for team) can we say the same here? I agree with the growing up demands of Jose.

Is there an article for this?

 

[SpyLuke10]

Pep inherited 3 world class players, Silva, De Bruyne and Aguero. Jose inherited 1, De Gea.

Pep then spent over 100 million more than Jose.

In the last main transfer window we brought in 2 quality players (Lindelof is not quality, yet at least), they brought in 4 (Mendy, Walker, Bernardo Silva and Ederson, I don't rate Danilo).

I'd say our squad now is about at the level of the squad Pep inherited when he arrived.

They are first, we are second, I thought this was gonna happen before the season began, so far it has.

 

[SpyLuke10]

Our mentality is what's holding us back.
Mourinho went into every big game defensively this season and against spurs it was a lucky goal that got us the win, in a game where Tottenham where trying to break us down (Unsuccesful) most times.

You can say it was a lucky goal but oh man I've seen plenty of games where the other team got lucky so it all balances out imo.

 

[Blue doomer]

I had you and Chelsea as favourites.

Thats fair enough pal. Ive just not seen one post where anyone says i expected utd to win the PL. Its all been City were always going to win it, much better starting 11 and squad. So i just presumed in August everyone on here went for City.

 

[Mercurial]

Is there an article for this?

I don't think it's by demand or anything of that sort and perhaps just pure coincidence or actual hairloss. Maybe more due to some subconscious respect for their coach, their level of zeal and self sacrifice seem high.

Great many of them with skin or 8mm Buzz this season.

https://www.premierleague.com/clubs/11/Manchester-City/squad

 

[Mercurial]

The idea that some say, that Pep & Jose entered similar jobs is far from the truth, from everything from starting-point of how the squad had been for a time and how the club had invested in getting back up.
It's also noticeable when going through the stats of the different seasons that City were more under-performing points-wise when you look at goal-difference and league-position than United were.

Starting from 2013/14 and to now:

Spoiler: Season-stats in numbers

City
Goals: 102
Goal against: 37
Goal difference: +65
Points: 86

United:
Goals: 64
Goals against: 43
Goal difference: +21
Points: 64

Let's go look at how we did under LvG compared to City (2014/2015):

2nd place City
Goals: 83
Goals against: 38
Goal difference: +45
Points: 79

4th place United:
Goals: 62
Goals against: 37
Goal difference: +25
Points: 70

2nd season (2015/2016)

4th place City:
Goals: 71
Goals against: 41
Goal difference: +30
Points: 66

5th place United:
Goals: 49
Goals against: 35
Goal difference: +14
Points: 66

Then Jose & Pep take over, 2016/17:

3rd place City:
Goals: 80
Goals against: 39
Goal difference: +41
Points: 78

6th place United:
Goals: 54
Goals against: 29
Goal difference: +25
Points: 69

So far this season:

1st place City:
Goals: 85
Goals against: 20
Goal difference: +65
Points: 81

2nd place United:
Goals: 58
Goals against: 23
Goal difference: +35
Points: 65

You can see in the graphs below that City were performing at a higher level in almost every department, all the way since 2013/14 when Sir Alex wasn't around anymore.
Keep in mind that we threw the league under Jose's season to put our eggs in the Europa League basket.
Also do note that there are 8 games left of the season, so this years stats can still improve.

Going by my graphs, we're improving in every area: Table position, points, goals scored, goals against & goal-difference.

Spoiler: Goals scored

Spoiler: Goals-against

Spoiler: Goal-difference

Spoiler: Points

Spoiler: Table position

Key-ish players in the two teams from 2013 and til now:

Spoiler: Man Utd

Patrice Evra - Left - Not replaced currently
Di Maria - Left - Not replaced currently
Nemanja Vidic - Left - Not replaced currently
Rafael (not for all) - Left - Replaced
Rio Ferdinand - Left - Replaced
Nani (not for all) - Left - Replaced
Wayne Rooney - Left - Replaced
Van Persie - Left - Replaced


Zlatan Ibrahimovic - Aged & leaving - Replaced
Carrick - Aged & leaving - Replaced

David De Gea - Here
Anthony Martial - New
Paul Pogba - New
Romelu Lukaku - New
Eric Bailly - New
Matic - New
Alexis Sanchez - New

Supposed to be key-players (presumably):
Bastian Schweinsteiger - Left
Radamel Falcao - Left
Henrikh Mkhitaryan - Left

In short:
We've lost an entire defense (if we add Rafael) and only had one proper replacement in Bailly & a in-squad replacement for Rafael in Valencia who is now ageing. Struggled with not having a midfield (which we've somewhat gotten but it isn't fully functional and we lack quality options to the main two) and have replaced our attacking options decently.

Spoiler: Manchester City

Joe Hart - Left - Replaced
Pablo Zabaleta - Left - Replaced
Joleon Lescott - Left - Replaced
Jesus Navas - Left - Replaced
Gael Clichy - Left - Replaced
Gareth Barry - Left - Replaced
James Milner - Left - Replaced
Samir Nasri - Left - Replaced
Aleksander Kolarov - Left - Replaced
Edin Dzeko - Left - Replaced


Vincent Kompany - There
Sergio Aguero - There
David Silva - There
Fernandinho - There
Yaya Toure - There / aged - Replaced
Raheem Sterling - New
Nicolas Otamendi - New
Kevin De Bruyne - New
Leroy Sane - New
Kyle Walker - New
Ederson - New

Top players/transfers just to fill the squad:
Ilkay Gundogan - New
Bernardo Silva - New
Benjamin Mendy - New
Danilo - New
Aymeric Laporte - New

In short:
They've changed out their attackers, their midfield, their defense & their keeper while adding depth and overall increased the quality of all sides of their squad. The exceptions in their side are those who were the absolute top players back when they won the league in 2013/14 in Aguero, Kompany, Toure & Silva who either still play at the top level or has been replaced with high quality.


City are performing well, there is no denying that. But we've had a long(er) way to go and Jose has been able to drag us up to 2nd while improving the quality of our squad from the shambles we've been at. I understand and agree with those being frustrated at how we play, and while I too don't think Jose will have us playing super-entertaining football (going by what people seem to think of as entertaining), he sure isn't doing a bad job with improving the club compared to those around us.

Thank you for your great and factual post! Nice reading.

 

[haram]

I don't think it's by demand or anything of that sort and perhaps just pure coincidence or actual hairloss. Maybe more due to some subconscious respect for their coach, their level of zeal and self sacrifice seem high.

Great many of them with skin or 8mm Buzz this season.

https://www.premierleague.com/clubs/11/Manchester-City/squad

It’s literally just Silva that’s done it?

 

[Hawks2008]

They have a better squad, but I'm not sure if Mourinho would have them playing at the level Pep does.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Thats fair enough pal. Ive just not seen one post where anyone says i expected utd to win the PL. Its all been City were always going to win it, much better starting 11 and squad. So i just presumed in August everyone on here went for City.

Probably because they're all running off with their tail between their legs. A lot of people on here thought we'd be challenging for the title this season at a minimum, because we had a great summer in the transfer window and because of Jose's second season record. obviously you have to take into account the amazing season City are having and say that it's almost impossible to challenge that, but we were definitely regarded as potential title winners by a lot of people, not just on the Caf.

For me though that's not the biggest disappointment. My biggest disappointment is that Jose brings us into every single big game like we're the worse side, like we're the underdogs, like we're expected to be beaten and should therefore play this overly cautious (some would say cowardly) approach and hope to hit them on the counter. That's worked in recent weeks pretty well but let's not forget the Liverpool, City, and Spurs games earlier in the season. Ultimately we have the second best squad in the league (many here thought we had the best squad before City started running away with the league) and to have such a diabolical mentality when we go into every big game is just fecking painful.

it's easy to forget that we were playing some great football right up until that Liverpool game, and everyone thought we finally looked like a top side capable of winning the PL, and then that game happened, and Jose told our players, who had thus far been banging in goals for fun, to basically park the bus and hope for a draw against a team who couldn't defend for shit at the time. No fecking wonder our form went to shite after that.

 

[Massive Spanner]

It's a lot more difficult to build an elite attack than it is to build a reliable defence.

They already had De Bruyne, Sterling, Aguero and Silva... we had Martial and pretty much nothing else in attack. That's a big difference.

But Sterling looked rubbish before Pep arrived. If you'd asked any neutral who they'd take over Sterling or Rashford two years ago, I'd say they'd all pick the latter. So why then is Sterling now playing like a worlie and Rashford has to mostly settle for coming off the bench. Aguero and Silva were looking like shadows of their best selves before Pep arrived and he's also made KDB much better too. We also had Martial, as you said, and Mata.

By the way you say it's a lot more difficult to build an elite attack but Klopp did it pretty easily and it only cost him a little more than we paid for Pogba, yet he has struggled hugely to build a reliable defence. Maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle? I'd argue Jose hasn't even built a reliable defense, our first choice back five were already here before he came here and we're only so good in defense because we're such a cautious and defensive side, oh, and DDG.

 

[Bearded One]

Pep spent 70 million more than Jose. It's not like we don't have that. Also maybe don't buy Pogba for 90 million? Sort your glaring weaknesses out and then go for players like Pogba. Why did we spend the summer chasing Perisic when we have Martial and Rashford?

Why didn't we sign a LB last summer? Why didn't we sign another midfielder to help Matic? Or why doesn't he trust Herrera who was exceptional last season?

We've a good squad. A really good squad. It's squarely on Jose for not knowing how to utilise those players.

I really do not think having the money/not having the money is the crux of the matter here. The net spend between the teams was marginally different iirc. The difference in gross spend was the money gotten from player sales which we could have as well done. I know they had extra monies as evidenced by their wanting to splash on Sanchez and their eventual purchase of that French-Spanish lad but they had pretty much had the league in the bag before he came to them. Both teams had a number of players who weren't good enough or didn't fit the new managers' style and we could have done better in the area of player sale. Of course they have the benefit of money plucked from trees per se unlike us but still yet the difference last summer was not money plucked from trees but player sales which we could do as well.

Regarding respective strength of teams, I'd argue that if there was any difference at all it was quite minimal. They had spent shed loads and still yet their best players were the players that formed the core of their team when the sheik came to town. Theirs was a team of "big" names with players on decline for various reasons like ageing, loss of form, injuties, etc. Aguero was no longer the once ultra-explosive Aguero - still clinical though but imo his name had now become bigger than his actual impact perhaps due to constant injuries and ageing. He was one of their genuinely worldclass players. The other set of world class or near world class players they had were Silva and KDB. Their previous manager had a problem of having them both play in their favoured positions and that meant that one was always going to go wide reducing his impact. I recall that Jesus fe****g Navas played a lot of games for them as testament to the fact that they were a hugely imbalanced unit. Also, the duo mentioned above were not exactly players that looked capable playing deeper in midfield but the gamble paid off massively especially because I recall that they decided against going for Pogba. Their central midfield was nothing desirable or enviable in having Yaya, Fernandinho and Fernando, players who you could see as options in mid-table teams. Its only in hindsight that we can laud that move. We were clearly superior in defence and even their attack which I think was better than ours was massively imbalanced. They bought attacking youngsters in Jesus and Sane and are trying to actualize their potential so I don't believe they didn't have attacking needs and they didn't have to offer an arm or a leg to get them. When players bought for less than 20mil pounds flop, there wouldn't be too much uproar but when it's a lot more people would rightly ask soul searching questions. Nolito I recall was one of their better players against us at Old Trafford and did quite fine on the left (I think) till Sane was brought up to speed and took his place. Pep was willing to have him as an option but the player was desperate you leave and actually pushed and left for Sevilla for better first team opportunities. So I was told by a Barca fan so I'm not sure if true or not. Don't think he was a flop but Bravo was a flop surely. Still with them and helped them to the Carabao cup, still a flop nonetheless.

My gripe with Jose is that he always tries to defend himself at the expense of anyone when things go awry. With respect to football, I don't think he has really evolved with his tactics and approach to games against decent sides. His style would probably work better now when used with underdogs rather than favourites and I'd class United as the latter rather than the former. Each time I sit down to take a cursory look at both teams at the start of Pep and Mourinho's reign at both clubs, I can't help but think there wasn't a huge gap. My joint starting XI would look like this:

Aguero
Martial Silva De Bruyne
Pogba Fernandinho
Shaw Kompany Smalling Valencia
De Gea

Aguero favoured ahead of Jesus, Zlatan (slightly) and Rooney; Martial ahead of Sane (not proven as much as Martial who carried United all the way to a cup win) and Nolito; Silva ahead of Rashford (playing as 2nd striker), Lingard; De Bruyne ahead of Navas, Sterling, Mkhitaryan, Mata; Pogba ahead of Herrera (what's up with this guy), Gundogan, Yaya; Fernandinho ahead of Fernando, Fellaini, Schniderlin and Carrick; Shaw ahead of Clichy, Kolarov, Blind and Young; Valencia ahead of Darmian, Sagna, Zabaleta; Smalling and Kompany (though crocked; tough choice I know) ahead of Rojo (big shout), Jones, Bailly (new comer), Otamendi and Stones;
De Gea ahead of Hart, Romero and Bravo. It's only with hindsight can we say KDB and Silva could play deeper at the highest level. Back then it would look almost suicidal. Pogba plus Fernandinho would be pretty much consensus pick for CMs between the two teams.

Yes they finished 2 seasons before the last much higher than us but influential players of those years had "fallen off the cliff" in terms of ability like Zabaleta and Yaya Toure. It was an ageing squad that they didn't improve in spite of loads of monies spent and so their last season before Pep took charge was a better gauge of their state rather than where they were two years prior.

Whenever things go south, Jose begins to look across the window and point out what his contemporary has and he doesn't. Common Jose get on with it and don't moan. It only makes us a laughing stock of sorts when he does that. What would he do if a lower league table managers like the Dyches and Rafas of this world said the only difference between him and they was his big budget because of the tactics he usually employs when faced with good to great teams? Would he have a ground to stand on?

Seriously he needs to stop sulking and get us back to winning ways as soon feasible. All the above said, I still think he is the best option in terms of ability to win trophies out there but I'd be willing to take a punt on Pochettino if I can because of his style and the plausibility of winning trophies if given the resources and support to succeed at the highest levels.

 

[sunama]

What about Martial?

Martial was a similar price to De Bruyne and arrived before Jose like De Bruyne did with Pep

United aren't far off City with spending, I think City have just spent much better than United

MCFC started from a point where they had better players and a squad which had won the title more recently.
The last time our players won the title was 3 years ago (when Jose arrived). On top of which, those players were old and had reached the end of their shelf life.
MCFC, for example, are still making use of the likes of Kompany, Aguero and David Silva, who are amongst their best players.
MCFC also knew for a while that Pep was coming and so bought players before he arrived, which suited his style. This did not happen with Jose.

I will put it another way. If Jose had joined MCFC and Pep joined us, I think we'd be in 2nd or 3rd place, while Jose would be hoovering up all the trophies. Jose's MCFC would be less attacking, though.
And let's not forget, Pep would never join us because the job at MUFC was too difficult. It Pep has never joined a Porto (who had never won a CL) or an Inter Milan (who hadn't won any major trophy for a while) or MUFC (who again, have not been winning like we used to).
Jose on the other hand, likes to take on these trick projects. As long as he has money available, he does come good. And this is why I feel he is the perfect fit for MUFC, in our current state.

 

[Blue doomer]

Probably because they're all running off with their tail between their legs. A lot of people on here thought we'd be challenging for the title this season at a minimum, because we had a great summer in the transfer window and because of Jose's second season record. obviously you have to take into account the amazing season City are having and say that it's almost impossible to challenge that, but we were definitely regarded as potential title winners by a lot of people, not just on the Caf.

For me though that's not the biggest disappointment. My biggest disappointment is that Jose brings us into every single big game like we're the worse side, like we're the underdogs, like we're expected to be beaten and should therefore play this overly cautious (some would say cowardly) approach and hope to hit them on the counter. That's worked in recent weeks pretty well but let's not forget the Liverpool, City, and Spurs games earlier in the season. Ultimately we have the second best squad in the league (many here thought we had the best squad before City started running away with the league) and to have such a diabolical mentality when we go into every big game is just fecking painful.

it's easy to forget that we were playing some great football right up until that Liverpool game, and everyone thought we finally looked like a top side capable of winning the PL, and then that game happened, and Jose told our players, who had thus far been banging in goals for fun, to basically park the bus and hope for a draw against a team who couldn't defend for shit at the time. No fecking wonder our form went to shite after that.

An honest post that mate. To be honest I myself thought you'd be right up there with us till the end.

 

[Marcky411]

Half the City squad shaved their heads bald just to fit in 'socially' and show subservience to the team and coach, (i.e accepting to put individualism aside for team) can we say the same here? I agree with the growing up demands of Jose.

Fully agree with Jose, but then he should start with himself and then only can he demand it from his players. Maybe instill some form of discipline when it comes to his player’s social media presence. City somehow don’t have an under performing dabbing donkey continually seeking media attention.

 

[sunama]

Our mentality is what's holding us back.
Mourinho went into every big game defensively this season and against spurs it was a lucky goal that got us the win, in a game where Tottenham where trying to break us down (Unsuccesful) most times.

So, our goal against Spurs was lucky (even though it wasn't).
What about when Spurs scored a "lucky" goal against us, at Wembley in 15 seconds (or whatever it was) and through our entire game plan out of the window?
We beat Spurs at OT and could've got a draw at Spurs' ground.
And let's not forget that Spurs are below us in the table.

Next, you'll be comparing our team to a mid-table team, claiming that they are better than us and that we were luckier than them.

 

[RedCoffee]

We should lock down excuse threads. We don’t have any real excuses.

 

[Marcky411]

Disagree. I think Mourinho's favourite is always 4231, on big game change 1 of the attacking player to someone with more discipline (Willian e.g.) to help out on defence.

He struggles with the formation because of Pogba; plus the fact that most of his attacking players do not have discipline - Mata, Rashford, Martial, and now Sanchez. Only Lingard would follow his instruction that's why he used him often even before his prolific form. Mourinho one said he would allow 1 free role player but not too many. That's why the old Chelsea kept Hazard, and prefer Oscar to Mata because Oscar worked a bit harder.

Very true Jose is determined to stick to a 4-2-3-1 formation, while it has been proven over the course of the season it doesn’t suit his team. Often other teams overrun our midfield with ease and we end up with a gaping gap between defense and attack, causing players in attack to drop deep to try and get onto the ball leaving Lukaku totally isolated and nullified.
Yet he insists to persevere with this formation without correcting the problem.

 

[friendlytramp]

- Peps a better manager
- City have a better squad
- City have more cash to invest in the squad

But it’s not about City, it’s about making the most of Manchester United. We’ve got a great squad with some great young players. Just let them play football.

 

[Treble]

[QUOTE="Ødegaard, post: 22306165, member: 58171"]The idea that some say, that Pep & Jose entered similar jobs is far from the truth, from everything from starting-point of how the squad had been for a time and how the club had invested in getting back up.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for tose graphs and stats. But they do not completely support your conclusion.

They show what I have already mentioned in htis thread: City were in steep decline prior to Guardilola in every single aspect. In 15/16 they were shit to the extent that they barely managed to finish 4th against a very very ordinary LVG side with Rooney up front. Imagine how shit they were! When one looks at their squad, their decline looks perfectly understandable: it was full with aging and mediocre players. The advantage they had is that they had several high-quality attacking players in Aguero (injury prone), Silva (30 y.o.) and KDB (sold by Jose).

The difference in performances isn't down to gross/net spending either. Why? Because 110m went on Mendy and Laporte who have barely played all season and other 25m on youngsters who have been loaned out to clubs in other countires. Generally, the difference in spending isn't significant at all. And United had on a free transfer Zlatan who was considered as good as Aguero. Or even better!

Truth is that Guardiola has done much better than Jose so far. I'm not very optimistic for next season because the development of this team has stagnated over the course of this season. This team does not create more and does not concede less chances than the team from last season. Statistically wise, the current team is punching above its height. See this:https://understat.com/league/EPL Hopefully the summer signings will dramatically change the team for the better.

 

[red devil whitey]

2 Differences

1- Man City have spent much wiser. Quality and competition for nearly all positions in the team due to the wise investments.

2- Pep gets the most out of a lot of his players. Look what he done with De Bruyne as an example. Took a good player and made him world class.
Now look what Jose has done with Pogba. Not much.

 

[iHicksy]

Silva shaved his head because he's had a hair transplant you dumb fecks.

 

[gajender]

MCFC started from a point where they had better players and a squad which had won the title more recently.
The last time our players won the title was 3 years ago (when Jose arrived). On top of which, those players were old and had reached the end of their shelf life.
MCFC, for example, are still making use of the likes of Kompany, Aguero and David Silva, who are amongst their best players.
MCFC also knew for a while that Pep was coming and so bought players before he arrived, which suited his style. This did not happen with Jose.

I will put it another way. If Jose had joined MCFC and Pep joined us, I think we'd be in 2nd or 3rd place, while Jose would be hoovering up all the trophies. Jose's MCFC would be less attacking, though.
And let's not forget, Pep would never join us because the job at MUFC was too difficult. It Pep has never joined a Porto (who had never won a CL) or an Inter Milan (who hadn't won any major trophy for a while) or MUFC (who again, have not been winning like we used to).
Jose on the other hand, likes to take on these trick projects. As long as he has money available, he does come good. And this is why I feel he is the perfect fit for MUFC, in our current state.

Kompany is not amongst city's best players he hardly plays .We need to stop making excuses for Mourinho yes Guardiola had slightly better base to work with but to say City were working towards his arrival with signings suited to his playstyle is disingenuous had that been the case he wouldn't have needed to make so many signings. Otamendi is hardly Pep's type defender but he has improved under him , I would even say De Bruyne was not Archetype Gaurdiola Midfielder but he is extracting great performances from him regularly. Most of the signings by City are just normal big club signings not for specific style prior to Guardiola's arrival it's just revisionist narrative peddled after the event.

 

[haram]

Kompany is not amongst city's best players he hardly plays .We need to stop making excuses for Mourinho yes Guardiola had slightly better base to work with but to say City were working towards his arrival with signings suited to his playstyle is disingenuous had that been the case he wouldn't have needed to make so many signings. Otamendi is hardly Pep's type defender but he has improved under him , I would even say De Bruyne was not Archetype Gaurdiola Midfielder but he is extracting great performances from him regularly. Most of the signings by City are just normal big club signings not for specific style prior to Guardiola's arrival it's just revisionist narrative peddled after the event.

With Txiki Begiristain being there before Pep it is quite possible.

 

[gajender]

With Txiki Begiristain being there before Pep it is quite possible.

Yes it is quite possible but my argument is if they were building squad for Gaurdiola's arrival they didn't do great job for him because he still needed to add so many players after his appointment , their fullbacks were finished , they hardly had Center backs to play out of back with Kompany always injured their midfield was not great either but he adjusted and evolved used Fernandinho at base of midfield and converted David Silva and De Bruyne as no 8 which is working great but could have backfired so we need to give him credit as well he found solutions in house for some of his pressing problems and trust me I am not his biggest fan I thought he was overrated but he has proved me wrong.

 

[haram]

Yes it is quite possible but my argument is if they were building squad for Gaurdiola's arrival they didn't do great job for him because he still needed to add so many players after his appointment , their fullbacks were finished , they hardly had Center backs to play out of back with Kompany always injured their midfield was not great either but he adjusted and evolved used Fernandinho at base of midfield and converted David Silva and De Bruyne as no 8 which is working great but could have backfired so we need to give him credit as well he found solutions in house for some of his pressing problems and trust me I am not his biggest fan I thought he was overrated but he has proved me wrong.

Yes he has done very well, I just think it’s wrong to just categorically deny City didn’t think about Pep managing them soon.

 

[gajender]

Yes he has done very well, I just think it’s wrong to just categorically deny City didn’t think about Pep managing them soon.

May be my initial post gave an impression that I believe City weren't working towards Pep arrival , I think I worded it incorrectly I agree that with Begiristain already at City they would have been possibly working on signings keeping Gaurdiola in mind it just they made kind of mess of it.

 

[Smores]

It's a lot more difficult to build an elite attack than it is to build a reliable defence.

They already had De Bruyne, Sterling, Aguero and Silva... we had Martial and pretty much nothing else in attack. That's a big difference.

All of which had built an understanding even before Pep arrived. Our attack has only just been thrown together.

Its why we were never going to reach these crazy heights City have this season. If we finish 2nd on high 80s then it'll have been a very succesful season in my book.

 

[haram]

May be my initial post gave an impression that I believe City weren't working towards Pep arrival , I think I worded it incorrectly I agree that with Begiristain already at City they would have been possibly working on signings keeping Gaurdiola in mind it just they made kind of mess of it.

Seems a bit coincidental that Sterling, de Bruyne and Otamendi were signed a year before Pep arrived, Pellegrini looked like a dead man walking, and then all three are now stapled to the first eleven under Pep.

Of course it could just be a coincidence. They were heavy investments though.

 

[El Zoido]

It’s literally just Silva that’s done it?

I assumed he was doing it in tribute to City legend Stephen Ireland.

 

[Ødegaard]

Thanks for tose graphs and stats. But they do not completely support your conclusion.

They show what I have already mentioned in htis thread: City were in steep decline prior to Guardilola in every single aspect. In 15/16 they were shit to the extent that they barely managed to finish 4th against a very very ordinary LVG side with Rooney up front. Imagine how shit they were! When one looks at their squad, their decline looks perfectly understandable: it was full with aging and mediocre players. The advantage they had is that they had several high-quality attacking players in Aguero (injury prone), Silva (30 y.o.) and KDB (sold by Jose).

The difference in performances isn't down to gross/net spending either. Why? Because 110m went on Mendy and Laporte who have barely played all season and other 25m on youngsters who have been loaned out to clubs in other countires. Generally, the difference in spending isn't significant at all. And United had on a free transfer Zlatan who was considered as good as Aguero. Or even better!

Truth is that Guardiola has done much better than Jose so far. I'm not very optimistic for next season because the development of this team has stagnated over the course of this season. This team does not create more and does not concede less chances than the team from last season. Statistically wise, the current team is punching above its height. See this:https://understat.com/league/EPL

Pep came to a team that had scored 70 goals minimum a season for a while. We still haven't done their minimum once post Ferguson, although we are likely to this season under Jose.

City's goal-difference ha s been minimum 30. Apart from this season under Jose that's higher than our highest goal-difference

Only once have City been in the 60s points-wise.
Only once has United reached the 70 mark. We likely will again this season under Jose.

You say city were in a steep decline, I say their team was having a bump in the road. Their minimum-outputs have been closer to our maximum-outputs. There is absolutely nothing suggesting these were or are similar jobs.

 

[gajender]

Seems a bit coincidental that Sterling, de Bruyne and Otamendi were signed a year before Pep arrived, Pellegrini looked like a dead man walking, and then all three are now stapled to the first eleven under Pep.

Of course it could just be a coincidence. They were heavy investments though.

Sterling is talented English youngster who irrespective of Gaurdiola's input would have been targeted by City due to homegrown requirements , Otamendi was not Ideal Centre Back for Gaurdiola so who knows , De Bruyne could have been Gaurdiola's pick but the role he is currently playing is not something many would have envisaged but anyway City were due an overhaul so investments would have been made irrespective of who their manager was.

 

[Treble]

Pep came to a team that had scored 70 goals minimum a season for a while. We still haven't done their minimum once post Ferguson, although we are likely to this season under Jose.

City's goal-difference ha s been minimum 30. Apart from this season under Jose that's higher than our highest goal-difference

Only once have City been in the 60s points-wise.
Only once has United reached the 70 mark. We likely will again this season under Jose.

You say city were in a steep decline, I say their team was having a bump in the road. Their minimum-outputs have been closer to our maximum-outputs. There is absolutely nothing suggesting these were or are similar jobs.

You don't take into account the clear tendency of decline in their performances but just throw generic stats and speculations. Maybe you are right after all but I'm not quite convinced. For starters, they had many 30 year olds in ther squad. Even after Guardiola dumped some of them in 2016, they still had 10-12 players who were 30+ y.o. Their squad was quite oldish and explains the decline. Your estimates of their "minimum-outputs" are convenient speculations.

 

[Ødegaard]

Good presentation, and I mean those are darn very good.

MCity have added in and/or replaced their key/top players much much better and earlier than ours. LVG pretty much start clearing out the deadwoods, but many of his replacements are not up to the task. Arguably, while he helps pushed some past players out, he have also added more average players to the squad. Since last season, we have started to properly better clear-out the averages players, and replace/added to the squad with more top/key class players.

Just to add a lil bit to the list, "Continuity and Stability of the team" with top class players (at good range of ages) who provides the team with strong spine or backbone. Most importantly, this determines the overall level of the squad. This also relates with chemistry/understanding between the players. The more they played together, the better the chemistry, and hence the better they perform as a collective group in matches.
*Only top class players, and players with high potential are included.
*Age, abilities regressing, season form, positioning change and injuries should also be considered.

Spoiler: Manchester United

End of Season 12/13 (SAF)
Patrice Evra - Here.
Nemanja Vidic - Here.
Rafael - Here.
Ryan Giggs - Here.
Paul Scholes - Here.
Darren Fletcher - Here.
Rio Ferdinand - Here.
Antonio Valencia - Here.
Wayne Rooney - Here.
Nani - Here.
Chicharito - Here.
Michael Carrick - Here.
David De Gea - Here.

Shinji Kagawa - New
Robin van Persie - New.

End of Season 13/14 (Moyes)
All of the above minus Paul Scholes = 14 players.

Adnan Januzaj - New.
Juan Mata - New.

End of Season 14/15 (LVG)
Rafael - Here.
Wayne Rooney - Here.
Michael Carrick - Here.
David De Gea - Here.
Robin van Persie - Here.
Antonio Valencia - Here.
Juan Mata - Here.

Angel Di Maria - New.
Luka Shaw - New.
Ander Herrera - New.
Marcos Rojo - New.
Victor Valdez - New.

End of Season 15/16
Wayne Rooney - Here.
Michael Carrick - Here.
David De Gea - Here.
Antonio Valencia - Here.
Juan Mata - Here.
Ander Herrera - Here.
Marcos Rojo - Here.

Anthony Martial - New.
Bastian Schweinsteiger - New.
Marcus Rashford - New.

End of Season 16/17 (Jose Mourinho)
Michael Carrick - Here.
David De Gea - Here.
Antonio Valencia - Here.
Juan Mata - Here.
Ander Herrera - Here.
Marcos Rojo - Here.
Anthony Martial - Here.
Marcus Rashford - Here.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic - New.
Paul Pogba - New.
Henrikh Mkhitaryan - New.
Eric Bailly - New.

Season 17/18
Michael Carrick - Here.
David De Gea - Here.
Antonio Valencia - Here.
Juan Mata - Here.
Marcos Rojo - Here.
Anthony Martial - Here.
Marcus Rashford - Here.
Paul Pogba - Here.
Eric Bailly - Here.

Romelu Lukaku - New.
Nemanja Matic - New.
Alexis Sanchez - New.

Out of them all, arguably only 3 key players that have been here the longest; Carrick, De Gea and Valencia. Juan Mata is worth to be mentioned.

Contrast this with MCity.

Spoiler: MCity

End of Season 12/13
Vincent Kompany - Here.
Kolo Toure - Here.
Gael Clichy - Here.
Pablo Zabaleta - Here.
Aleksandar Kolarov - Here.
Gareth Barry - Here.
Nigel De Yong - Here.
Yaya Toure - Here.
David Silva - Here.
Samir Nasri - Here.
Carlos Tevez - Here.
Sergio Aguero - Here.

End of Season 13/14
Vincent Kompany - Here.
Gael Clichy - Here.
Pablo Zabaleta - Here.
Aleksandar Kolarov - Here.
Nigel De Jong - Here.
Yaya Toure - Here.
David Silva - Here.
Samir Nasri - Here.
Sergio Aguero - Here.

Fernandinho - New.

End of Season 14/15
Same one as above = 10 players.

Bacary Sagna - New.

End of Season 15/16
Same one as above = 11 players.

Kevin De Bruyne - New.
Raheem Sterling - New.
Nicolas Otamendi - New.
Fabian Delph - New.

End of Season 16/17 (Pep Guardiola)
Vincent Kompany - Here.
Gael Clichy - Here.
Pablo Zabaleta - Here.
Aleksandar Kolarov - Here.
Yaya Toure - Here.
David Silva - Here.
Sergio Aguero - Here.
Fernandinho - Here.
Kevin De Bruyne - Here.
Raheem Sterling - Here.
Nicolas Otamendi - Here.
Fabian Delph - Here.

Leroy Sane - New.
Gabriel Jesus - New.
IIkay Gundogan - New.

Season 17/18
Vincent Kompany - Here.
Yaya Toure - Here.
David Silva - Here.
Sergio Aguero - Here.
Fernandinho - Here.
Kevin De Bruyne - Here.
Raheem Sterling - Here.
Nicolas Otamendi - Here.
Fabian Delph - Here.
Leroy Sane - Here.
Gabriel Jesus - Here.
IIkay Gundogan - Here.

Aymeric Laporte - New.
Benjamin Mendy - New.
Kyle Walker - New.
Ederson - New.
Danilo - New.
Bernardo Silva - New.

Their key players are much much longer and earlier, and at a far better age too, providing their team with greater stability and continuity, stronger spine. Most notable to be mention; David Silva, Sergio Aguero, Fernandinho, Kompany, Kolarov, Zabaleta and Yaya Toure. For this season, Silva, Fernandinho and Aguero, while the rest stabilize the ship up until last season. They have replaced their ageing past-it players much much quicker and much better too.

Yeah, I too think their approach to fixing their squad has been better than ours, or rather they have at least missed on less than us for intended first team players. Find it annoying as transitioning between teams while keeping the football up has been a identity of ours for as long as I've known what football is.

 

[Bobski]

I want him gone. Not because of some foolish anger at him not keeping up with an outstanding City team. They have a much better and more settled squad and were primed to go this year.

Results are not the true issue and I believe that it true for many of the people who are feeling disillusioned with Mourinho. I just can't support his view of how the game should be played. The experience matters, if all we care about is the result then text alerts or read the score in the morning paper along with your share price would be the way to go. You can say that is not the rational, considered view and you might be right, but supporting a club is rarely about those qualities, it is an emotional connection and Mourinho is just not Utd for me. If I believed him likely to change this would be different, but based on his history that is difficult.

 

[Ødegaard]

You don't take into account the clear tendency of decline in their performances but just throw generic stats and speculations. Maybe you are right after all but I'm not quite convinced. For starters, they had many 30 year olds in ther squad. Even after Guardilla dumped somwe of them in 2016, they still had 10-12 players who were 30+ y.o. Their squad was quite oldish and explains the decline. Your estimates of their "minimum-outputs" are convenient speculations.

It's not estimates, it's historical facts. Their minimum numbers produced, apart from goals against, has been better than us.

The issue the second part of my post was to address is that pre-Jose we've done a poor job replacing players in the first eleven with high-quality players that have produced & stayed.
City have also had more continuity from key-players in the 2013/14 win still being around now and playing key-roles still.

We are progressing, that's fact. Argue over if the progress we're having is acceptable for the money spent & football shown.

City were a much better team than us, that's a fact even if you want to argue for a decline on their side.