Some much needed perspective on the United and City squads

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by haram, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. Dec 28, 2017
    #1

    haram Full Member

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    This is not a thread discrediting Pep, he has done very well. It is just relevant with Mourinho's comments on the spending.

    The squad Mourinho inherited was no where near good enough to challenge for the league. Out of the players in the squad, here are the players who had any experience in challenging for the league.

    De Gea, Jones, Smalling, Young, Valencia, Rooney & Carrick. 2 of those are ex wingers turned full back, and two of those were well past it. The only players who were good enough for a title challenging side are De Gea, Martial, Jones and Smalling with consistent fitness and if you want to stretch it, Mata and a very raw and young Rashford.

    City's squad was not perfect either. However, De Bruyne, Aguero, Silva, Fernandinho and Sterling all had experience of challenging for the title and were all capable of doing so again. They have all improved, yes, and that's also credit to Pep. Those 5 have proven very important to City's current historic run.

    Now looking at Jose's spending. Half of the 310 million spent has gone on two players, Pogba and Lukaku. Meanwhile Pep at City did not have to worry about forking out a fortune to bring in De Bruyne and Aguero, as they were already at the club. This allowed him to spend money in other areas.

    Jose has spent 313 million according to transfermarkt. Pep has spent 415 million. Considering the gap that already existed between the squads, this is significant. Also considering the damage Moyes and Van Gaal did, the fact that City have been finishing above us for 3 season prior anyway also adds some perspective. I am not criticising Pep for spending, but there was an existing gap between the two already, and the continued spending has consolidated the gap.

    Pep was able to get rid of his entire selection of fullbacks and bring in his own. Jose has yet to sign even one fullback. Of course that is also down to his choice, but considering the large outlay in each of his two seasons on Pogba and Lukaku, and the fact that the board wouldn't sanction a move for Perisic, he was perhaps a little restricted. Not so much to derail the entire rebuilding process obviously, and in some ways it is understandable, but these things count. I think he will get rid of players like Blind and Darmian this summer who are quite frankly, not good enough to challenge for the league.

    Despite all this, we sit second and have a good points total. The football needs to be better yes, but the team is still growing and we need to add more. We are closer to where Pep's City were last year and I think we need to accept that at the moment we are a bit behind them in the rebuilding process. I think the gap in the league clearly indicates that.

    Edit - Jose speaks on some of the points mentioned

    http://www.skysports.com/football/n...ehind-rivals-because-money-makes-a-difference
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  2. Dec 28, 2017
    #2

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    Another city/pep thread....
  3. Dec 28, 2017
    #3

    NextSeason Full Member

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    Good post/thread. Shame the majority on here will whine you out of town.
  4. Dec 28, 2017
    #4

    marukomu The Gatekeeper

    We are not at their level yet. City are sex. We are wank. white text for all you whinging fecks.
  5. Dec 28, 2017
    #5

    Crackers Coolest Cracker in the box Scout

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    In b4 the wankathon
  6. Dec 28, 2017
    #6

    haram Full Member

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    I wanted it to be more about our rebuilding and that we shouldn't be too disheartened with what City are doing. This year was too much of a stretch for us.
  7. Dec 28, 2017
    #7

    Vialli_92 Full Member

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    Pep spent his money much more wisely imo

    £100 million on Pogba was a solid investment but Pep brought in 3 quality players for the same money

    Makes a difference at the end of the day having the quality spread through the team
  8. Dec 28, 2017
    #8

    quethenoo Full Member

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    We ain't that far behind despite what some of the doom mongers might say. But clearly we are never gonna play as expansively as city under Jose. Might as well accept that, get behind the team and management and hope they get it right. What I do know is we are in in the best shape we have been since saf.
  9. Dec 28, 2017
    #9

    haram Full Member

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    As he already had De Bruyne in the team. De Bruyne wasn't a cheap buy for City either. If Pep had to sign a player of Pogba's calibre like Mourinho had to, he doesn't get to sign these other players in the same window.
  10. Dec 28, 2017
    #10

    Billy Blaggs Flacco of the Blaggs tribe

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    Another city/pep thread? :houllier:
  11. Dec 28, 2017
    #11

    Vialli_92 Full Member

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    What about Martial?

    Martial was a similar price to De Bruyne and arrived before Jose like De Bruyne did with Pep

    United aren't far off City with spending, I think City have just spent much better than United
  12. Dec 28, 2017
    #12

    Infordin Full Member

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    If Mourinho spends another 200m on 3-4 players next summer, will he have any excuses left for not winning the league?

    Or will the argument that City were better than United when both took over in 2016 always pop up?
  13. Dec 28, 2017
    #13

    haram Full Member

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    I'm talking about the CM position. Martial is also not in their calibre. Besides, Pep inherited Sterling.
  14. Dec 28, 2017
    #14

    Eddy_JukeZ Full Member

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    After the 2015-2016 season, Martial was seen as the far better player than Sterling.
  15. Dec 28, 2017
    #15

    haram Full Member

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    Well City will spend more, but it's difficult for them to get much better. We will be closer to them next year for sure. Pep knows it as well. Next year is where we should really be scrutinising Mourinho.
  16. Dec 28, 2017
    #16

    adexkola Arsenal supporter

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    Shut the feck up if all you have to add to threads are "another City thread"?

    OP, I think this view is revisionist. Many supporters believed we would be in the title race at the beginning of the season.
  17. Dec 28, 2017
    #17

    Cadillac New Member

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    It's not just about the money spent. It's about the development within. He's turned Otamendi and Sterling into world class players. Before injury Stones had improved out of sight and he's turned Delph into a valuable linch pin in defense. Before the season those four were being laughed at here on the Caf.

    Pep has built a game plan and has all his players motivated and hungry. And all willing to fight for the jumper. And give 110% every match. Keeping them motivated and hungry. Can the same be said for our boys and Mourinho? Who's really improved under Jose? Is everyone happy and buying into Jose's game plan and philosophy? Are the players developing and improving since he took over from LVG?
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  18. Dec 28, 2017
    #18

    Vialli_92 Full Member

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    Still they bought a CM for that price and you guys bought a striker

    It was one less CM Pep needed so he could spent more on other area's same as Man United it means one less attacker was needed and could spend on other area's

    City had to buy 2 goalkeeper's in Pep's time there where as United have been good with DDG
  19. Dec 28, 2017
    #19

    haram Full Member

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    Right, but Sterling had already proven he could challenge for the league at Liverpool. He had the talent and quality. Martial is very talented as well of course. It's just that CM's and strikers are the most expensive and arguably important positions, which is why I spoke about Pogba/de bruyne and Lukaku/Aguero. Martial is one of the few players Mourinho inherited which were good enough. Of course we had Rashford, but they play on the same side and Pep added Sane.
  20. Dec 28, 2017
    #20

    haram Full Member

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    Silva, de Bruyne and Fernandinho is their first choice midfield? I do not get that point you are trying to make?

    Also, it was Pep's fault that he signed a dud in Bravo.
  21. Dec 28, 2017
    #21

    R'hllor Full Member

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    This guy :lol:
  22. Dec 28, 2017
    #22

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    You know.. Maybe.. Just maybe.. This is a good year for them, that's all. We've had it, Chelsea has it, arsenal had it in the past, even Leicester, leeds, hotspur has em.

    2009 the all conquering barcelona sides dubed to be the best in the world and ever loses the title next season to madrid. Everyone and their dog thinks chelsea first batch will dominate the epl for years to come. Inter won a treble but loses to juve eventually. Madrid won back to back cl and they're beaten in the league.

    A season is long in the present but in the grand scheme of history it's just a year in a series of years.

    Next season many factors would play, and the field will change again.

    Just keep on doing the best, these things changes. There's no point tearing up everything and start over for what's beyond our control (city's good year is beyond our control).

    Sometimes we have to know, what's wrong? Is the system wrong? Wrong sets of player? And sometimes. Just sometimes there's nothing wrong. The other part is just having their year.

    I would panick if we're 5th on Jose's second year, regardless on who's 1st (be it leicester or sunderland). But we're 2nd
  23. Dec 28, 2017
    #23

    Vialli_92 Full Member

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    My point is United are not far behind City in spending so this excuse of your's that "Pep didn't have to sign someone like Pogba" really isn't valid

    De Bruyne was brought in for similar money as Martial so it's not like United weren't spending money either before Pep arrived
  24. Dec 28, 2017
    #24

    Footyislife Full Member

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    Our buys have been quite terrible since SAF left, though we've gotten some gems in Pogba, Martial, Bailly, & Shaw. Mourinho has been wasteful with the money
    • You don't fork out 90m for a world class player to play 40 yards away from goal pinging long balls to the FB.
    • Why spend 75m on Lukaku who isn't the complete player, when you have young strikers with world class potential in Martial, Rashford. You could have gotten a cheap older experienced striker for cover.
    • With 7 CB's (Smalling, Jones, Bailly, Rojo, Blind, TFM, Axel) why spend 31m on another unproven one in Lindelof? Lindelof isn't even better than TFM & Axel from what we've seen so far.
  25. Dec 28, 2017
    #25

    haram Full Member

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    I dont think you are understanding my point. Pep already had players in his team who could compete for the league. Players like Pogba and Lukaku are expensive. Pep did not have to sign De Bruyne and Aguero. He could spend in other areas which are less costly. Sterling was bought for £50 million as well just the year before, the same price as Martial. Pep didnt have to pay for him either.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  26. Dec 28, 2017
    #26

    Vialli_92 Full Member

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    Pogba and Martial add up to the same price as those players you mentioned
  27. Dec 28, 2017
    #27

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    Martial and rashford aren't world class. They're not better than kane/moratta/aguero.

    You seems to have an idea that if we play them up front they'd become ronaldo.

    No they won't. On the current condition they're just a good player to have.
  28. Dec 28, 2017
    #28

    haram Full Member

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    The idea of relying on our young players is more romantic than realistic.

    Smalling and Jones are injury prone, Rojo was out until the new year, Bailly will go to AFCON in the future and TFM and Axel may not actually be totally ready.

    Lindelof is also a signing looking to the future and thinking about a potential 352 formation. He is gradually getting better. It is better to get in early on young talents than chase them when we need one for the 352 formation or when other clubs start circling with his price also rising.

    Also, Tuanzebe and Fosu Mensah will probably still be utilised. Darmian is probably on his way out so there will be space, and in the future as they grow they will have chances at CB.
  29. Dec 28, 2017
    #29

    haram Full Member

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    The City players I mentioned were signed before Pep got there... that's my point. He didn't have to pay for them and could focus elsewhere. Mourinho had to use his budget on Pogba and Lukaku.
  30. Dec 28, 2017
    #30

    Vialli_92 Full Member

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    He didn't have to he chose to spend that money on 2 individual players

    Sure it definitely helped Pep those players were there beforehand but United spent big money before Mourinho arrived, Shaw, Herrera and Martial were all not cheap

    Also was Lukaku necessary with Martial and Rashford already in the team?
  31. Dec 28, 2017
    #31

    haram Full Member

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    We needed a player of Pogba's calibre. It was a necessary purchase. Shaw has been injured/unfit for a while and it is questionable if him and Herrera are good enough to challenge for the league. Van Gaal wasted a lot of money. The only player he bought which is really good enough to challenge for the league is Martial.

    Lukaku was also necessary. It would have been a mistake to rely on Martial/Rashford after losing Ibra.
  32. Dec 28, 2017
    #32

    Greck Full Member

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    Think there's merit to both sides.
    -Jose's starting point put him at a disadvantage
    -He also didn't invest as well as Pep.
    -City and Pep have a system that magnifies the abilities of players of a certain ilk better than Jose can.
    -Overall he's done well to progress our rebuild and it's unfair to expect anyone to compete with City's unprecedented form this year.
    - Disregarding City for a second, people still have a right to wonder if our performances so far on the pitch matches what we have invested. Why arent we comfortable putting away teams we outspend? Why does the attack look so uncohesive? Do we really need to outspend the whole league to finally address basic attacking movement?
  33. Dec 28, 2017
    #33

    haram Full Member

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    Like Pep's team was struggling last year, we have some problems also. We wont get stuffed like they did against Leicester or Everton though. We are just a bit behind City in terms of our rebuild for obvious reasons mentioned in the original post. Yes we can play better and our style needs to improve in some ways, but we are still growing. If we see the same problems at the same levels next year, we should be concerned.
  34. Dec 28, 2017
    #34

    Cadillac New Member

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    Spending £75M on a one dimensional striker is not a necessary buy. There's no value in that. Surely there were other strikers available that we could have targeted? Surely we didn't put all our eggs into one basket and then hit the panic button and sign Lukaku last minute? And by bringing in the one dimension Lukaku, it's forced Martial and Rashford out of position. Hindering their development. And he also can't play alongside Zlatan.

    I still want your opinion on where the massive improvement in Mourinho's tactics will come from? It takes more than just spending money to win silverware and get on City's level. As I said in an earlier post. Pep has done a fantastic job at getting the very best out of his squad. The same can't be said for Jose. None of us want to admit it, but Jose is currently playing a very outdated brand of football. You can tell by body language and effort that the players aren't enjoying themselves compared to City players under Guardiola.
  35. Dec 28, 2017
    #35

    haram Full Member

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    Im sure Mourinho does not feel that way about Lukaku. We could also have signed Morata but we ended up going for Lukaku. Lukaku still has more to show us.

    We were showing good football at the start of the season. We were breaking well, our transitions were good, ball circulation and movement was good. It fell off a bit after Pogba's injury. We need more control in midfield and more consistency from the wide areas. The team will develop going into next year I am sure.
  36. Dec 28, 2017
    #36

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    What's with the trend of posters unable to convince others of their views and facing disagreement, starting a new thread to shed light on the same old views which everyone are aware of adding nothing much in the process?
  37. Dec 28, 2017
    #37

    haram Full Member

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    You dont like what I've said?
  38. Dec 28, 2017
    #38

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    I don't particularly care either way. There should be differing views here. However I don't see how there is a "much needed perspective" on this when the exact point you make has been made countless times this season with the same back and forth going on in other threads. It adds nothing whatesoever and now just served to exists in one more thread.
  39. Dec 28, 2017
    #39

    haram Full Member

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    I think it's much needed considering the gap, the fact the league is basically done and the conversation on spending. I think there should be a discussion on the gap between the two squads and the context behind it. It's easy to just say Mourinho has spent 300 million and the gap is 15 points.

    I havent really seen that much focussed discussion on it either. It's normally comments saying we're shite or that Guardiola has bought the league. It's more than just that.
  40. Dec 28, 2017
    #40

    Exhale Beats New Member

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    Our mentality is what's holding us back.
    Mourinho went into every big game defensively this season and against spurs it was a lucky goal that got us the win, in a game where Tottenham where trying to break us down (Unsuccesful) most times.